Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Wheeler Excerpts

Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Shinkwin!

[Captain of the King’s Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard and Deputy Chief Whip (Baroness Wheeler) (Lab)]

My Lords, we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, and then the noble Baroness, Lady Cass.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, an enormous amount of time was given in the other place to blocking safeguards. I support the vital amendments in this group and thank all those who tabled them. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, who made some incredibly important points about vulnerability. Some of us have been there. This is proper scrutiny; it is the House of Lords at its best. On whichever side of the divide we find ourselves on this Bill, we should all be very proud of that.

As someone who speaks from one patient’s perspective, I would never presume to know exactly how the pain another person experiences might feel to them as an individual. But I think that the sense of incredible loneliness, compounded by a sense of disorientation, are both parts of total pain, as defined by the pioneer of specialist palliative care, whom the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, mentioned—Dame Cicely Saunders. That makes these amendments dealing with coercion and pressure crucial.

When I have been drowning in a pool of pain, the sides of which, in that moment, seemed so steep and slippery, I would have clutched at almost anything in an attempt to pull myself out. I appreciate how coercion and pressure are so nuanced and subtle and how much each of us in this House, at some point in our lives, may need to be protected from them. My noble friend Lady Coffey is absolutely right, in speaking to her Amendment 47, to mention the Royal College of Psychiatrists and, in her explanatory notes, its reference to the sense of being a burden as an internal coercion. I can testify from personal experience that in some cases the sense of being a burden, or the burden of pain, whether physical and or emotional, can be simply too great to bear on your own. This can be the most powerful and damaging form of coercion and perhaps the one from which we most need protection. We need to recognise that in the Bill.

I note that the Bill does not require any questions to be asked about why a person may wish to die. It is because Rebecca Paul’s Amendment 468 on precisely this issue was rejected in Committee in the other place that Amendment 3, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and Amendment 181, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady O’Loan, are so important. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the other sponsors of Amendment 48 have argued, we cannot divorce this internal coercion from the circumstances in which, for example, a disabled or older person might find themselves. We have to factor those in. It is not just coercion or pressure by any other person that may prove the tipping point.

I hope that your Lordships’ House will give very careful consideration to the amendments on financial pressures, such as Amendment 462, which I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for tabling so ably. As we know, these pressures are exacerbated when a person is living with a disability.

In closing, I particularly welcome Amendment 846, tabled by my noble friend Lady Berridge, and Amendment 58, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, because the subtlety of pressure, particularly as it relates to disability, can definitely stem from cultural attitudes, whether institutional—for example, in terms of access to appropriate care—or societal. I give one example. I was laughed at in the street outside my home as recently as last weekend because of how I look as a result of my disability. That is not good for morale, to put it mildly.

It could be argued that mockery goes with the territory of being disabled, particularly when the anonymised vitriol on social media encourages teenagers, for example, to view disabled people as fair game. My question in relation to the Bill, and specifically Amendment 58, is, how can being subject to such prejudice not affect a person’s mental well-being or their sense of self-worth? How could such a structural disadvantage, in terms of the cumulative effect of being constantly exposed to such negative and discriminatory attitudes, not affect a person in a vulnerable situation who is considering assisted dying? It is inevitable, but how many non-disabled people factor that in?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

I have moved my seat. I wish to speak briefly as a member of the Select Committee who has not spoken.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

We will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Goddard.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

I moved from my position at the front, because there was a presumption that I was the Front-Bench spokesman trying to force something. I apologise; I was not. This House has a free vote, and nobody is whipped. I happened to be sitting on the Front Bench, and I have moved back; I understand the alarm I may have caused by standing up then, but I was not trying to derail the debate. I was just trying to be helpful, because lots of people have spoken, and I respect every single person who is doing so in the House—for and against. Within my own party we have the same difficulties.

It is about evidence. I want to help the House today, on the specific premise of coercion. Sir Max Hill, the former Director of Public Prosecution, said that

“throughout the time that I served as DPP … we did not have the coercion offences created by the Bill, which I suggest would be a significant advance, and nor did we have a legal system in which the investigation was taking place before the death. … The major advantage of the Bill, if I can put it that way, is that … scrutiny will be before death”.—[Official Report, Commons, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill Committee, 28/1/25; col. 86.]

That comes to one of the points the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made—that when you are dead, it is too late to find out what has gone on.

In the other place, mandatory specific training on domestic violence, including coercive control and financial abuse, was introduced into the Bill and agreed through an amendment tabled by Jess Asato MP. Participating doctors and members of the multidisciplinary panel will have to undergo specific training in this area, as well as in assessing mental capacity. I believe there are now safeguards in the Bill—I think that was what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, was alluding to.

It seems to me that we in the House think this is the first time this has ever happened, but the fact is that 300 million people across five continents have some form of assisted dying legislation. Not one of those countries has ever repealed it. It is right that we make it the safest and the best, and that the amendments be debated at length.

Noble Lords should forgive the cynicism of those who support the Bill—one Member said last week, causing some humour in the House, that they were sorry they came second to another Member in getting amendments down. This is not a competition; this is about getting the Bill right and fit for purpose.

I find it quite amusing when I see the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Carlile— it is worth the admission fee just to see the interaction. The points from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, were right about trying to come to a conclusion and move forward. It is right that everybody speak, but that we speak to the amendments and try to get to a conclusion.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, is right: we should give it time. But we do not have time. We have four Fridays and no more. The Government have said they are not going to give way. If we do not finish the debate on these amendments, which are increasing every day—I believe we are up to 1,500 now—the Bill falls. Somebody—not me but someone else—might say, “Well, it is somebody’s objective that we run out of time; then we can stand here wringing our hands and say that we were just trying to make it the best Bill we could but we ran out of time and are very sorry”. That is not acceptable. Our role here is to ensure that legislation goes back to the other place, fit for purpose and the best we can make it. Somehow, we have to distil these amendments into something understandable.