Schools: Grammar Schools
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I think, and hope, that the policy I have enunciated today is a consistent and pragmatic approach to how we can try to get more choice into the schools system for all kinds of schools. This change to the admissions code makes a modest contribution to that, but we think it is right that that should extend to grammar schools, as it does to all other types of school.
Baroness Walmsley
Will my noble friend join me in congratulating Bradford Girls’ Grammar School, which has decided to abandon selection, to become an academy and accept the statutory admissions code, and thereby to return to its roots—providing a good education to all girls locally?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am very happy to join my noble friend in extending congratulations to that school and to all others. I am glad that they are able to take advantage of the freedoms that the Government have provided to choose academy status and to decide what they think is the best way forward. Clearly, we know that a large number of schools—I would point, obviously, to some academy schools—have done extremely well without selection. The Government’s priority is to make sure that children on free school meals are given a decent education and that we address the gap between rich and poor.
Special Educational Needs (Direct Payments) (Pilot Scheme) Order 2012
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I very much welcome the order, which will provide considerably greater flexibility for families. Certainly, feedback on individual budgets in other areas has indicated a much greater level of satisfaction on the part of users and their families, so the order is very much to be welcomed. I am particularly proud of the work that my right honourable Liberal Democrat friend Sarah Teather has done on this area. I think that she has taken a great step forward in realising the Prime Minister’s objective of making the UK a very family-friendly country. We have a long way to go, but this is a good step in the right direction.
I would like to ask the Minister about assistive technologies and communication aids, but before doing so I had better declare an interest as a voluntary patron of the British Assistive Technology Association. The association is not just a trade organisation. As well as manufacturers of pieces of kit that help people with both sensory and physical disabilities, the association contains members who are part of the third sector, including organisations that buy pieces of kit to help people and advise on their use and professionals who work in that field. I do not ask these questions on their behalf, but this is how I know about the issues—I just want to explain that.
I notice that both the Explanatory Notes and the Minister’s speech referred to services rather than to pieces of kit. Sometimes, bits of machinery and bits of kit—or stuff—can contribute just as much as services, or the delivery of expertise by experts, to the quality of life of people with physical and sensory disabilities. The good thing and the bad thing about these pieces of kit is that the manufacturers are constantly improving them, so they are getting better and better all the time. Therefore, more and more ways are being found of helping people with disabilities to lead a very full life and to communicate. Of course, communication aids are so important because they provide people with a voice who did not have one before. Can you imagine what it is like not to be able to speak? People in this House would not like that at all. As these things are constantly being improved, it is often better not to buy them but to lease them so that, when improvements become available, the equipment can be given back in return for something better. Of course, sometimes the equipment becomes out of date and you cannot get spare parts any more, so you want to upgrade.
Therefore, I want to know from the Minister whether that sort of thing can be covered within these personal budgets. Can parents—or the young people themselves when they reach 16—choose to purchase equipment? Can they choose which equipment they want to purchase? Can they lease the equipment? Can they take on a service agreement to ensure that they always have the equipment available so that, when it breaks down, they can get someone round to sort it out so enabling them to keep their voice or their ability to get around or their ability to communicate with other people or their ability to work or to learn? All these things are very important to the lives of the people that we are talking about, and these pieces of kit help them tremendously.
I hope that the Minister will be able to help me on that.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for writing to me personally to give me maximum notice of this debate, which has been brought on fairly quickly after the new year. I am not complaining about that. We asked the Minister to make debating the order a priority in the parliamentary timetable when the order-making power was inserted into the Bill on Report so that the proposals could be given the fullest opportunity to show their worth. It is therefore good that we have this early opportunity of scrutinising the order. Like the department, we want to get on with the pilots and evaluating them in order to understand how much substance, if any, there is in the concerns that have been expressed. It was nevertheless considerate of the Minister to give me maximum notice.
The Government have been very accommodating in the approach that they have adopted in the development of the order. In response to representations, they agreed that it should require the affirmative rather than the negative procedure. The sunset horizon has been reduced from five years to two years and the pilots will be undertaken only in pathfinder authorities or those that are piloting direct payments in health.
Some further safeguards asked for have also been introduced. In response to representations from the Special Educational Consortium, the order has been reworded with a view to ensuring that the receipt of a direct payment in no way threatens the statutory right of the child to receive the educational provisions set out in their statement and that the viability of specialist SEN services is not threatened by direct payments taking resources out of the system. Nevertheless, I confess to retaining a degree of scepticism about the Government's ability to ensure all of that and as to what will be the effect of direct payments in practice.
I hope that the Minister will not feel that, having been absent on the occasion when the order-making power was added to the Bill, I have turned up as a bit of a wet blanket as regards the general consensus established on a previous occasion and that he does not wish that I had stayed away again this time. I do not wish to be a wet blanket but just like the noble Lord, Lord Rix, I wish to draw attention to a number of concerns that need to be bottomed, which I believe the Minister is as keen to bottom as anybody.
Education is a universal service for all children. What will be the effect of resources being taken out of the system by way of direct payments? What will be the effect on other children with SEN who do not have direct payments? Will they see services reduced? What will be the effect on the ability of schools, colleges and local authorities whose responsibility it is to educate disabled children and children with SEN to plan for the coherent delivery of the relevant services?
I understand that all relevant statutory duties, such as the duty to provide or arrange special educational provision contained in Section 324 of the Education Act 1996, remain in place throughout the pilots. I also understand that the order includes a requirement in paragraphs 11(c) and 17(f)(i) that local authorities consider the potential adverse impact on other services that they provide or arrange for other children and young people in their areas and that they stop making direct payments if it becomes apparent that the payments are having such an impact. But direct payments take money out of the system. How can the Government be sure that this will not threaten the viability of specialist services? How can they be sure that giving responsibility to the parent instead of the local authority or school will not undermine the legal right of children to receive the provision that they are entitled to? The Government may say that they do not want these things to happen, but how can they ensure it?
There may be unintended consequences too. Some schools and local authorities may wash their hands of difficult children by encouraging parents to take a direct payment. Parents and young people may be encouraged to take a direct payment when assessments are unclear as to what they are entitled to, thus putting their ability to purchase the necessary support at risk. What if parents do not use the direct payment for the purpose for which it was intended? Parents do not always behave as responsibly as we would like. Of course, the local authority might be able to take them to court, but that is surely not where we want to end up.
The Special Educational Consortium is concerned that the Government have not fully considered the impact of resources for this universal service being taken away from schools and local authorities and being held by individuals. Careful thought will need to be given to the impact of parents or young people holding the budget. Direct payments held by parents and young people will inevitably interact with school and college finances and employment policies. This may have implications for the way schools and local authorities plan for the education of children with special educational needs. For example, if a parent employs a teaching assistant to work with their child in school, who will be responsible for managing that teaching assistant? Who ensures that the child’s teacher works collaboratively with the teaching assistant? Who is accountable for the education outcomes for the child, and ultimately how will schools’ ability to plan provision for all children with SEN be affected? Safeguards to ensure the sustainability of specialist support services, particularly for children not eligible for direct payments, need to be copper-bottomed.
There are other concerns, such as how the Government will ensure that the provisions set out in the statement are properly quantified and specified before a direct payment is made. I will not go on listing them in more tedious detail now. The department is aware of these concerns from the Special Educational Consortium. They clearly place a premium on the evaluation of the pilots for bottoming the extensive range of issues to which this order gives rise.
I was greatly encouraged by the way in which the Minister was seized of the importance of evaluation when the order-making power was inserted into the Bill on Report and, most important of all, that he clearly saw the importance of approaching the evaluation with an open mind and not with a preconceived idea about what should come out of the pilots. The fact that the department is also working so co-operatively with the Special Educational Consortium on the development of the order and, I hope, with the development of the pilots is very much to be welcomed and is very encouraging. Undertaken in that spirit, I greatly look forward to the results of the evaluation.
Baroness Walmsley
What is the mechanism for challenging a local authority’s decision about this? Let us say that a local authority says either, “You, Parent A, are not capable of handling an individual budget, therefore we are not going to give it to you”, or, “We are not going to give you an individual budget because we think it would have a damaging effect on our ability to deliver services more widely”. There are two possible reasons there where they may make that decision. Is it the local authority ombudsman to whom the parent would go if they were not satisfied with that decision, or is there some other challenge mechanism?
Lord Hill of Oareford
Yes, my Lords, there is, and my noble friend raises a good question. It seems that the order allows the local authority to review the decision that is taken. I may need to write generally on the arrangements for the review of decisions. Our view is that we have sufficiently robust arrangements for the purposes of the pilot, so they are in place, but I think I will need to follow up with my noble friend on precisely what they are. However, on the kind of issue that my noble friend spoke about—whether it has worked properly and whether a fair process has been carried out—we certainly think that, again, the evaluation will enable us to see whether the processes that have been put in place are working. If I have more particulars, I will write to my noble friend on that.
Disabled People: Access to School Examination System
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I think that the point underlying the noble Lord’s question is the extent to which the Government have a view as to whether they are trying to lean, as it were, on parents regarding whether their children should be educated in mainstream or special schools. Our general view on that is that one should seek to leave those decisions as much as possible with parents. There are some cases where parents are keen on their children being in mainstream schools, because they benefit from that; there are other cases where special provision is clearly the sensible way. We want to have both. We are trying to increase the establishment of new special schools as part of our free schools policy, and we will continue to do that.
Baroness Walmsley
Could I ask my noble friend whether there are any sanctions available against schools that might be found to have been behaving wrongly in this matter? Do the Government intend to follow up and scrutinise the workings of this new guidance over a period of time to ensure that students with genuine disabilities are not penalised by the new wording of the guidance, and that they continue to get the help they need with their exams?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, as my noble friend says, it is extremely important that children with genuine disabilities get the extra leeway that they need. I do not believe that there are sanctions against schools that might be trying to push the rules of the system, but I will check that point. The responsibility for the overall integrity of the system rests with Ofqual, but I agree with her that we all need to make sure that this new guidance operates properly in the way that is intended. I am sure that my honourable friend Sarah Teather will be keeping such an eye on it.
Young Children: Language Development
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I agree entirely with the importance of reading and about the crucial role that parents play in that. It is not just a practical point; I cannot think of anything nicer than the bond between parent and child that comes through reading. I also agree that speaking to one's child is part of this as well. I agree with the importance of all those points.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the research that shows that the part of the infant's brain that is responsible for speech and language development is the same part that is most affected by stress and violence when the baby is developing? What is the Government’s policy response to that research?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am not aware of that research. I am sure my noble friend will be able to send it to me, and I will be very happy to look at it. The basic policy response of the Government on this is to improve the identification, first of all, and the assessment of these problems, to improve the support that we give to teachers and others working in early years settings, to work with voluntary organisations working with parents on this and to try to tackle it across a range of fronts.
Education: Music
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Walmsley
Does my noble friend the Minister agree that to implement the national music plan at the speed at which the Government propose requires a large cadre of very hard-working music teachers? In the light of that, will he try to persuade his right honourable friend the Minister for Schools that the EBacc requires a sixth pillar that includes cultural and vocational subjects, including music? As things stand at the moment, we are losing a lot of music teachers across the country.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I think one of the reasons why we are losing a number of teachers at secondary school and, in particular, the number of music teachers is dropping is that the number of pupils at secondary schools is dropping. I agree with my noble friend entirely about the importance of making sure that we have really good teachers able to teach music particularly at primary level, and we have plans to improve initial training for music teachers. As far as the EBacc is concerned, my noble friend knows well the Government’s position, which is to concentrate on a small number of subjects that give children the greatest chance of going to strong universities. The Russell Group supports the choice of subjects. However, I know how strongly she feels and that there are pressures from all sides of the House for us to extend the number of subjects in the EBacc.
Education and Skills Act 2008
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Walmsley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they plan to commence the duty on school governing bodies to invite and consider pupils’ views, introduced through section 157 of the Education and Skills Act 2008.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the commencement of Section 157 of the Education and Skills Act 2008 is under review. Section 176 of the Education Act 2002 already requires schools to have regard to statutory guidance on consulting pupils, and remains on the statute book. We are revising the guidance published under Section 176 and have been working closely with a wide range of interested parties, including children’s charities, in its development.
Baroness Walmsley
I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. As we move towards the celebrations of the 20th anniversary of the UK ratifying the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child on 16 December, it is very important that that guidance is consulted on and is very clear to schools. Can my noble friend say when that guidance will actually be published, so that people can be quite clear about how schools should go about implementing the UN convention, in particular, article 12, which is about the child having a right to have his or her voice heard and opinions taken seriously on any matters affecting him or her?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend about the importance of the guidance and it being clear and intelligible. I am not able to give a specific date today as to precisely when we will be publishing that. I fall back on the normal formulation of “soon”. I know how much the issue matters to my noble friend and I will make her point and point out the arrival of the anniversary to my honourable friend in the department.
Sure Start
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I have given the noble Lord the snapshot of figures that we have for September. As I said, that shows that there have been six outright closures and a further 120 or so mergers. If one added all those together and accepted that those were all closing, which they are not, that comes to something like 3 per cent of the total of Sure Start children’s centres. It is the case that the Government attach high importance to the role that Sure Start children’s centres play, which is why through the early intervention grant we have put in the funding to maintain a national network of Sure Start children’s centres.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, when my honourable friend Sarah Teather, the Minister for Children, made her announcement this morning about the additional free early years places for disadvantaged two year-olds, I noticed that there was something in the consultation about information for parents. The idea is one of moving to an annual report from local authorities about the sufficiency of places, rather than the current assessment. Can my noble friend the Minister say how he feels that this new system will be better than the old one?
Education: Qualifications
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
Given that the noble Baroness is asking that question, I suspect that the answer may well be that other countries are doing more in terms of modern foreign languages than our own country. I share her concern: we want to redress the balance. As she knows, we are keen, through things like the English baccalaureate, to encourage take-up of modern foreign languages in our schools. In time, that should work its way up through the education system.
Baroness Walmsley
What can the Government do to help schools access the technology they need for e-learning and distance learning through which they can access the specialist teachers that they cannot employ in their own schools? That would help students to widen the range of subject areas that they could take at A-level. Obviously, modern foreign languages could be a case in point.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with my noble friend about the importance of technology and the way that it opens up all sorts of opportunities that were not there before, perhaps particularly for children in rural areas. We need to look at that and make sure that its potential is fully realised.
Education Bill
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, the Minister will know that I have always promoted the importance of young people having their say in issues relating to them—in particular, at schools. I have an Oral Question on exactly this subject on 23 November. I certainly support the principle of what the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, is asking for today.
When you are in a coalition, there has to be a bit of “give” and a bit of “take” on both sides. During the passage of this Bill, I think we have had that; we have had some “give” and “take” from both of the coalition partners. I thank my noble friend the Minister for that, and in particular for the fact that we managed to persuade the Government not to remove the schools’ duty to co-operate and about when part-time students start to repay their loans. These are some of those very important things that are now in the Bill.
There have been other examples of where we have considerably strengthened the guidance—for example, on searching and on same-day detentions—and we have made changes to Clause 13. My noble friends and I are still somewhat unhappy about both Clause 13 and Clause 43, but I accept that you cannot have everything in a coalition. In some cases, we have had excellent reassurances from the Dispatch Box, and I think this issue falls into that category. I hope the Minister will be able to assure the House that the Government will do everything they can to ensure that wherever children’s interests are concerned, their voices will be heard and their views taken fully into account. It is very important that that should be done in schools.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, we have some sympathy with the aims behind this amendment, and understand, as I am sure many noble Lords do, the advantages that can flow from giving young people a practical demonstration of democracy and representation. As the noble Lord, Lord Hill, said in an earlier debate on this issue, the previous Government went some way towards expanding pupil representation and consultation with governing bodies. As I understand it, specific provision was made in the Education and Skills Act 2008 to require governing bodies to invite and consider pupils’ views, but this has not yet been enacted. Perhaps the Minister could clarify whether the Government are now going to implement the provision in the previous Act.
In the mean time, I listened very carefully to the speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, but would still sound a note of caution on the wording of her amendment. It would seem, as it stands, to apply equally to pupils of all ages, and we are not convinced at this stage that that is the right way to proceed. As the noble Baroness indicated, some primary school pupils might struggle to understand some of the issues on governing body agendas, and there is, as has been pointed out, the issue of whether it is appropriate for them to deal with teacher discipline and conduct issues. It is therefore perhaps more appropriate to find a level of involvement for young people in governance issues that is more age-specific. However, we very much support the idea of strengthening pupil engagement and hope that the Minister is able to suggest other ways in which this might be achieved.
Education Bill
Baroness Walmsley Excerpts(14 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I am seriously concerned about the issue of having non-qualified teachers in a classroom. Qualifications for teaching are not just about being qualified to teach maths, science or languages; they are about having some knowledge of child development. It is crucial for teachers to learn about how children grow, how they learn to think and how they learn at different ages. It is different if a parent or grandparent goes into a classroom to hear children read or other such activities. Those people are under supervision and fit in with what the class is doing anyway. I would not like someone who was not qualified to be teaching chemistry or physics. It seems quite a dangerous thing to happen. I certainly would not allow into my house an electrician or a plumber who was not qualified. Why would we allow people who are not qualified to teach children? My young nephew recently trained to be a soccer coach for young people. He had to learn not only the skills of teaching soccer but various techniques of teaching as well as first aid. Having non-qualified people in classrooms could miss out all those extra things that teachers learn.
I have some questions for the Minister. How will these non-qualified teachers be recruited? Who will they be? Supposing that they were predominant in a school, what kind of education would those children receive? This is a very serious issue. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, used the analogy of unqualified doctors in a hospital. While we are not talking about life and death here, we are talking about life chances. I know that the Government have an enormous respect for teachers and a genuine intention to improve the professionalism of teachers right across the board, but I have some questions about how this particular freedom would work. For example, would there be a maximum percentage of people teaching children in a free school who did not have a teaching qualification? How would the number of people teaching in a free school without a qualification be monitored? Would there be continuous professional development to make up the gap identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, when someone might be particularly good at IT or a particular modern language, which have been used as examples by the Government, but had not had that training in child development and classroom management—another very important thing taught in teacher training? How will the Government monitor this and make sure that the standard of what the children in schools receive is of the highest? That is what matters in the end. It does not matter so much what is written on a piece of paper as long as those children who walk through that school door get a good offer from the school.
I hope that my noble friend the Minister will answer all those questions. It has been said that this is envisaged to operate in the margins of maintained schools. That may be all very well, because plenty of different people who come in to contribute to children’s experience in schools do not have qualified teacher status. We all understand the importance of the direction of teachers and their overall experience in the school. I would not want them to be operating any more than in the margins of the teaching workforce in any particular school. I hope that my noble friend the Minister can answer those questions.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, under existing legislation, before a maintained school can convert into an academy, its governing body must consult those it thinks appropriate on whether the school should convert into an academy. However, Clause 55 allows a school to convert into an academy with absolutely no consultation with the pupils, the parents of the pupils, staff, the local authority or other interested groups. Our amendment would require consultation before a school applies for an academy order and require that consultation to seek the views of four categories of stakeholders: parents, pupils, school staff and the local authority. We regard it as a matter of courtesy, democracy and common sense.
As we made clear in Grand Committee, we do not seek to set out in legislation a long list of everyone who should be consulted, but it is our view that any Secretary of State considering granting an academy order would need to be assured that the views of the four key groups were being taken into account, so any consultation should be required to include them. Indeed, the Minister said to my noble friend in Grand Committee:
“I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, that it is quite difficult to foresee situations where it would not be appropriate to consult the kinds of people that she mentions”.—[Official Report, 14/9/11; col. GC 242.]
I wonder whether, on reflection, the Minister has come up with a possible situation in which it would not be appropriate to consult these four groups and, if not, whether he will concede that, in order for any Secretary of State to make a well informed decision, these groups should always be consulted.
I also agree with the concerns previously raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that under the new proposals one of the bodies allowed to carry out the consultation, apart from the school’s governing body, is the organisation with which the Secretary of State proposes to enter into an academy arrangement. As she rightly pointed out, this is no guarantee of an objective or neutral consultation. We therefore believe it is important to build in some additional checks and balances to ensure that a new academy is truly desired by the local community. By requiring the consultation to include the views of these four key stakeholder groups—pupils, parents, staff and the local authority—those applying for an academy order will need to demonstrate to the Secretary of State that there is local demand for the conversion, not just from the organisation with which the Secretary of State has proposed to enter into academy arrangements but from the wider stakeholder community. If this clause was allowed to go forward unamended, it would be yet another example of those stakeholder groups being denied a voice.
I recognise that, strictly speaking, the granting of an academy order enables a school to convert into an academy only at a future time; it does not automatically trigger conversion. By denying the chance for parents, pupils, professionals and the community to have a voice before the academy order is made, to a large degree it presents them with a fait accompli. Indeed, our amendment would ensure that the key stakeholders were consulted on a timely basis so as to be able to influence a decision whether or not to apply for an academy order. It would mean that the Secretary of State would need to take account of those views when deciding whether or not to grant that order.
I hope noble Lords will recognise the sense and the democratic underpinning of this amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Perhaps I could say a couple of words now and obviously reply at greater length later. There are a couple of government amendments in this group.
Amendment 84C in my name is a technical amendment. It clarifies the Academies Act 2010 by removing any doubt about local authorities’ funding powers in relation to academies. Under Section 6(2) of the Academies Act, a local authority must cease to maintain a school once it converts to academy status. This is because academies are funded directly by the Secretary of State. However, in certain circumstances, local authorities might still want or need to assist academies: for example, where an academy is part of a private finance initiative contract held by the local authority. When a PFI school becomes an academy, it remains part of the PFI contract and as part of that contract the authority makes regular payments to the contractor in respect of that academy. It meets these payments from a combination of sources: funding from individual schools’ budgets, including a contribution from any PFI academies; revenue funding from the department; and funding from its own resources. When a PFI school becomes an academy, we ensure that the local authority is in a “no better and no worse” position in relation to the PFI contract than if it had remained a maintained school.
As I explained in my letter of 19 October to the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, a number of banks that finance PFI contracts have expressed concerns about whether local authorities have the legal power to make payments in relation to PFI academies. The Government believe that local authorities do currently have the power to assist academies financially or otherwise. However, we recognise the demand for this point to be put beyond doubt, which is what Amendment 84C seeks to do. The amendment clarifies local authorities’ existing powers in relation to academies; it does not place any new requirements or duties on local authorities. In order to provide clarity as early as possible, the amendment to Clause 78 provides for this new clause to come into force on Royal Assent.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend the Minister for standing up too soon.
I want to address the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. Of course, this subject was discussed at very great length during the passage of the Academies Bill through your Lordships’ House. I agree with the noble Baroness that it is good practice, prior to making an application, for the proprietors of an academy to consult all the groups she has mentioned, and probably many others too. All those groups would have a justified complaint to the school if they were not consulted. The Act says that appropriate groups should be consulted, and there is no question that all those four groups are appropriate groups.
However, I would like to ask the noble Baroness what evidence she has that over the last 12 months, say, academies have not been carrying out that best practice and have not consulted those very relevant and appropriate groups prior to making the application. If we are going to make a change, we should have the evidence that there is the need for a change. Perhaps she can supply that evidence when she responds, because I do not think there is any.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Walmsley has said, we debated these issues at length and amended the consultation requirements during the passage of the Academies Act, which was just over a year ago. The fundamental question today, as it was a year ago, is how much detail about consultation we should prescribe in statute. When we discussed consultation during the passage of the Academies Act, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, shared with this House his experience of consultation on the academies programme. He argued that just because the detail of a process is not set out in statute does not mean that it does not happen in a comprehensive manner.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, this Government do not believe that minimal legislation leads to minimal consultation, which was the point made by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. Also like him, and like schools and head teachers, we believe firmly in the importance and value of consultation. The department’s website contains advice on carrying out all stages of the academy conversion process, including consultation. A departmental official liaises with every converting school and among other things advises it on ways to ensure a fair and open consultation.
Ultimately, schools make the choice to convert and they are under a legal duty to carry out a reasonable consultation of appropriate persons. Given the variation in these circumstances, it is right that the school assesses, in carrying out its consultation duty, what is reasonable in its local community, rather than Ministers prescribing it from the centre. Once consultation is complete, it is the responsibility of the school to reflect on the responses and to decide whether to proceed with academy conversion. That will go ahead only with confirmation from the school to the department that it has carried out its legal duty to consult appropriate persons and that the school wishes to go ahead, having considered the consultation responses.
The noble Baroness raised two issues about whom to consult and when the consultation should take place. In relation to whom to consult, we think that schools can be trusted to assess who the appropriate persons are to consult according to the circumstances and that in those cases the appropriate parties, as my noble friend has just said, will include parents, pupils and staff. If we have concerns that consultation has not been adequate—for instance, if parents have not been consulted—these concerns will be raised and dealt with prior to the funding agreement being signed.
On the timing of the consultation, the noble Baroness pointed out that consultation should take place before a decision is made, and I agree. The consultation requirement in the Academies Act already reflects this principle. It requires that consultation should take place before a school is converted into an academy. As I think that the noble Baroness accepted, an application for an academy order is a procedural step and does not signify a decision that the school should become an academy. That does not take place until the funding agreement is signed, which may happen many months after the issuing of an academy order. With that in mind, both last year and still now, it seems right that the school can carry out its consultation and reflect on the responses to it right up until the point at which it decides to become an academy and signs the funding agreement.
We discussed consultation at length during the passage of the Academies Act but, as my noble friend Lady Walmsley has said, we have a key advantage now compared with when we last debated the issue a year ago. Our debate about the legal framework for consultation can now be informed by the experience of schools in implementing it. We have had around 1,100 academy conversions since the Academies Act was enacted. I would argue that for the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, to ask the House to overturn the position it reached last year after a long debate, she would need to provide strong evidence that there is widespread disquiet about the consultation process. I do not think she has provided that evidence, and I think that that is because it does not exist. The department has had very few complaints from parents or other interested parties about the way that consultation has been carried out. This confirms my belief that the House got the issue right in the Academies Act 2010. I would therefore ask the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, to withdraw her amendment.