Bread and Flour Regulations 1988

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, who has been a tireless campaigner on this issue. Again, a benefit of this position is getting to learn new subjects, and this is one of them. I can see why he campaigns so hard on it. I am delighted to say that we are getting there, albeit that it could be argued that maybe it could be quicker. At the same time, industry is seeing that, and the good news is that it is already adjusting. The majority of breakfast cereals are now fortified and a lot of the rest of the industry is responding. We are making a difference, and I thank the noble Lord again for his campaigning.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister consider that too low a dose would leave people believing that fortification does not work? Is he aware that the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists believes that the proposed level of folic acid fortification will prevent only about 20% of neural tube defects? It recommends that fortification be set at a level that is sufficient to prevent four out of five neural tube defects, which is 1 milligram per 100 grams. Will the Minister consider that?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I am very aware of the range of scientific advice on this. I am also aware that the official results of the consultation, which will come out, are not clear cut. A sizeable number of people, 40%, are anti-fortification. As ever, it is about trying to get that balance right. We completely agree on the direction of travel. There is some scientific advice that at too high a level there is a potential masking of pernicious anaemia in the elderly. This is the first step. Let us get all the evidence. The critical thing is getting that first step right.

PPE Expenditure

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Absolutely. As ever, we want to learn the lessons. That is why we have set up the Covid inquiry. Yes, supply arrangements are in place. At the same time, as per the answer to the previous question, holding high levels of stock does not make sense. It is cheaper in this case to dispose of it while making sure that the supply lines are in place so that we can rapidly respond to any future event.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I understand from the Minister that it is the department that paid the cost of this useless material, and for its storage. How many doctors, nurses and ambulance staff could be given a decent pay rise if that money had been given to the NHS?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Again, I would take issue with the words “useless material”. It was bought based on a projection of how the pandemic could progress and what would be required. The fact that it did not progress that far was thanks a lot to the work we did in being the quickest country to vaccinate in the world. So, we did not need that level of PPE; that was a good thing. We bought for a worst-case scenario and, thank goodness, we did not require it because of the action we took to get on top of it all. Now, we are dealing with the surpluses bought for that worst-case scenario and quickly disposing of them.

Respiratory Syncytial Virus

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My noble friend is correct in that, for the vast majority of people—infants in this case—it is mild, flu-like symptoms at most. At the same time, it is responsible for 35,000 hospitalisations and 20 to 30 deaths a year, so it is a serious thing that we need to get on top of. We are looking for the best of both worlds. That 90% of two year-olds will have had RSV and so will have that natural protection is a good thing. But in the most serious cases—the risk groups are those with congenital lung or heart disease or spinal muscular problems—these new treatments really will help and are very important.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, the innovative vaccines and treatments mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, all require UK clinical trials. The number of clinical trials initiated in the UK declined by 4% between 2017 and 2021. What are the Government doing to reverse this decline so as to bring valuable industry money back into the NHS and cutting-edge treatments, such as RSV vaccines and treatments, to patients?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Baroness is correct. In fact, my maiden speech was in a debate about how we can bring life sciences to bear more. The point about NHS clinical trials and the fact that we are not using this massive potential asset was very much a feature of that. It is key to the work we are doing—I had a meeting on it just this week—so I agree with the noble Baroness and hope we will see improvements in this space.

Food (Promotion and Placement) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, the regret Motion standing in my name, and also that standing in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, are critical of the Government’s handling of the Food (Promotion and Placement) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2022. These regulations introduce measures designed to limit the ability of retailers to promote the purchase of products classified as high in fat, salt and sugar; the intention of the regulations was to help address the high prevalence of obesity in this country.

It is worth reflecting that on 29 September 2022, just a day before the regulations were due to come into effect, the Government of the then Prime Minister Liz Truss introduced these regulations to facilitate a delay to the “multi-buy” components of the regulations—multi-buy promotions are the “buy one, get one free” on products high in fat, salt or sugar. This was passed via a negative procedure without debate, whilst the location-based restrictions came into effect as planned on 1 October this year. That brought into play restrictions on the placement of unhealthier food products near to supermarket checkouts at aisle ends and store entrances.

The motivation, if I can put it that way, for this regret Motion is that the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee strongly criticised the Government’s handling of this issue, particularly with regard to the Government’s justification for the delay, and the lack of parliamentary scrutiny for the amendment. It is the report of the committee that has formed the basis for these regret Motions, and I certainly do agree with the observations that the committee made.

Let me summarise for the purposes of your Lordships’ House the concerns encapsulated in this regret Motion. First, the Government have not brought forward sufficient evidence to justify their decision. Their stated rationale for the delay was the “global economic situation”. I suggest to the Minister that this is a somewhat cursory comment; one sentence is not enough. It is quite unclear what the Government feel the “unprecedented global economic situation” is. Are we referring to the post-pandemic situation, the war in Ukraine, high gas prices or something else? In other words, this is hardly a full description that one might expect. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee concluded that there was insufficient

“justification for delaying the start of a measure intended, over time, to accumulate public health benefits including significant savings to the NHS.”

The Government’s decision to take this still further goes directly against their own impact assessment for these policies, which states:

“Although price promotions appear to be mechanisms to help consumers save money, data shows that they increase consumer spending by encouraging people to buy more than they intended to buy in the first place.”


The impact assessment further states that

“the monetised benefits greatly outweigh the costs on a ratio of around 14:1”.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee then outlined a number of procedural criticisms of the Government, the most significant of which include that appropriate parliamentary time was not given for scrutiny of the legislation. After all, as I have already mentioned, the statutory instrument was introduced just one day before the regulations were due to come into effect, without the standard 21-day period normally expected to allow for scrutiny by Parliament through the negative secondary legislative procedure. Of course, the statutory instrument was also laid without a full analysis of the public consultation being published, making it impossible to assess the views of the sectors affected by this decision.

There are a few questions arising from this that I invite the Minister to address when he replies. Why were the Government not able to bring forward sufficient evidence to justify their decision? Why do their claims about the impact of this policy on the cost of living contradict their own evidence presented in the impact assessment? Could the Minister say whether the consultation responses will be published, even at this stage?

I also seek reassurance from the Minister that similar procedural issues will not arise with future legislation. I make this point in particular reference to the fact that the Government will be bringing forward secondary legislation to delay the upcoming restrictions on the advertising of products high in fat, sugar and salt on TV and online, before they are due to come into effect on 1 January. I hope that we will not see a repeat of the failure to provide the requisite amount of time to allow for parliamentary scrutiny of legislation when we come to that statutory instrument. There should not be an attempt to bypass Parliament by not giving it the opportunity to discuss and examine the regulations.

This debate would not have been needed had the Government explained everything clearly in their Explanatory Memorandum, and had they allowed Parliament the opportunity to scrutinise, as is normally required. I say to the Minister that the Explanatory Memorandum is important. It is not just about how parliamentarians understand regulations; it is also about the public, industry and third-sector stakeholders. We all look to understand regulations by these means. I hope the Minister will take that point away and emphasise to the department the importance of providing the right supporting materials for often complex—and sometimes highly challenging—government policies. With that, I beg to move.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, my regret Motion regrets these delay regulations because they damage public health and are against the Government’s previously stated policy. When the legislation for the ban, which these regulations delay, went through your Lordships’ House in the Health and Care Act 2022, it was supported enthusiastically from these Benches. We are keen on measures to prevent ill health, save patients distress and save the NHS money, and the evidence provided by the Government in the impact statement at the time was compelling.

However, during Report, the Government introduced an amendment to allow them to delay the implementation of this measure and others in the Bill. I distinctly recall being extremely sceptical and rather suspicious about this, because of the robust opposition to these and other measures from some Members on the Government’s own Back Benches and certain lobby groups. I felt that the Government were trying to keep their troops happy and ditch the measures by stealth.

In response to my concerns, I clearly remember the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, who was leading on this amendment for the Government, assuring me that the delay power was needed only in case of a very short delay being necessary as a result of consultations on implementation. I was not convinced then and I am not convinced now. I believe that the delay power was put into the Act at the behest of lobbyists who have their own interests at heart, rather than the health of the nation, in order to allow the measures to be kicked down the road indefinitely and quietly buried.

Last week, the Government announced £20 million of funding for research to develop new medicines and digital tools to help people shed 20% of their weight. Although this will be welcome to those living with obesity, it is closing the door after the horse has bolted. In addition to spending all this money on helping people lose weight, why not promptly implement some of the measures already in legislation to help prevent obesity in the first place? By its own figures, obesity costs the NHS £6 billion annually, and this is set to rise to over £9.7 billion each year by 2050 unless effective preventive measures are taken.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, said, in its 15th report, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee criticised the Government robustly on this regulation. It reminded the House that, in the impact assessment to the original instrument setting up the ban, the Government said that

“the monetised benefits greatly outweigh the costs on a ratio of around 14:1”.

That is pretty good value. Of course, the costs would have been borne by the manufacturers, retailers and advertisers of these unhealthy foods, and the benefits would have been felt by patients and the NHS, but clearly that did not suit those who lobbied the Government to introduce this delay.

What is the Government’s justification for it? The unprecedented global economic situation. What I would like to ask the Minister to explain to the House is this: whose pocket do they think they are saving by delaying the ban on this kind of price promotion? Is it that of the shoppers who are trying their hardest to put food on the table after they have paid the vast increases in their energy bills and mortgages thanks to the Government’s economic mismanagement? Or is it that of the large, profitable organisations that make, sell and advertise these foods? I am not convinced that the global economic situation is going to cause these companies to go bust, but I am convinced that continuing to allow this kind of promotion will do harm to the average shopper. Why do I say that? For the very simple reason that the Government themselves, in their own impact statement, said:

“Although price promotions appear to be mechanisms to help consumers save money, data shows that they increase consumer spending by encouraging people to buy more than they intended to buy”.


So now we know: the big manufacturers, retailers and advertisers of unhealthy foods have won, and the patients and shoppers have lost.

Nursing: Recruitment

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Indeed, and towards that aim we have set up the nursing associate role, which is a stepping-stone to allow people to ease in and have qualifications on the way to becoming a fully trained nurse. The overall point I make, as before, is that by putting in a £5,000-a-year grant for student nurses, we are recruiting the numbers. I reiterate that 72,000 is a big pipeline but also that it is an uncapped pipeline. The more we can attract, the merrier—whether domestically or, as in the fine tradition of the NHS, from overseas sources.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the percentage of nurse vacancies is much higher in community care than in any other part of the sector? What is the department doing to ensure not only that we have enough nurses but that they are in the right places?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

That is an excellent point. One thing I probably should have said is that the number of 36,000 leavers includes people who have left NHS trusts and gone into community care, working in GP surgeries. We do not catch that number who come back in again, so the real number is less than 36,000, but the basic premise of the question—making sure we are attracting nurses to the right place—is absolutely the right one. I believe that is the plan in place, but I will check on that and make sure we are doing as requested.

Pharmaceutical Research and Development Spending

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for introducing this important debate so comprehensively. There is no doubt that the R&D and manufacture of new medicines already contribute in a major way to our economy, but it is also clear that there is considerable potential for improving that contribution in the interests of patients, the levelling-up agenda and the economy. However, as the noble Baroness said, over the past 25 years there has been a manufacturing capacity reduction of 25%, while other countries, such as Ireland, have seen an increase. We also saw how India produced a lot of our vaccines during the Covid pandemic.

Pharmaceutical companies can choose where they make their medicines, since they sell them all over the world, so what are the factors that they consider when deciding where to invest their capital and create well-paid jobs? Access to skills is important, as is the supply chain infrastructure, the regulatory environment, the attractiveness of the fiscal environment and upfront capital grants. Importantly, at this time of economic crisis, I should mention the importance of stability. In the past, companies have chosen the UK on that factor alone, even when other factors might have been better elsewhere.

There are many things we can do to make us more competitive. Ensuring that local communities have the right skills to attract these companies is vital and, at this time of pressure on public spending, the last thing we need to see is a cut in further and higher education opportunities, particularly in the poorer demographic areas.

As far as capital grants are concerned, the life sciences innovative manufacturing fund, £60 million over three years, is a small step in the right direction compared with our international competitors. This fund is vastly oversubscribed but could contribute to the Government’s growth ambitions. Are there any plans to increase it? The returns in increased profits, wages and taxes would surely pay for it in a few years. We must also encourage companies to increase their own capital investment in manufacturing capacity here. If capital expenditure were to be recognised within the R&D tax credit system, it would encourage them to invest more of their own money in the UK.

We need to get this right in the interests of patients, since UK manufacture of clinical trial medicines, for example, would get innovative medicines to patients quicker. It is really important that we do everything possible to speed up the time it takes to get new medicines to patients, because we are not doing very well at the moment. UK patients have lower access to innovative medicines than those in other countries, as my noble friend Lady Brinton said. For example, 43% of positive recommendations made by NICE between 2015 and 2019 were for a narrower population of patients than other regulators. Even when medicines are cleared by NICE, five years after they are approved for the NHS they are reaching only 64% of the patients reached by other nations. This could be because we spend less on medicines than other countries—9% of the healthcare budget, the lowest in the G7, compared with the average of 14% to 18%.

I now turn to clinical trials, which are so important to getting cutting-edge medicines to patients. In the last four years the UK has slipped down the international rankings for the number of clinical trials and the number of patients taking part, despite the Government’s declared ambition to make us a go-to country. The number of patients involved has almost halved during that period. This represents a cost to the NHS of around £447 million in the last financial year alone. Given that we heard from NHSE’s chief financial officer than the NHS is now short of £20 billion per year simply due to inflation in the cost of goods and services unless it can make serious cuts, surely the opportunity to save money by hosting more clinical trials is almost irresistible.

However, one of the problems is capacity. We have lost thousands of beds over recent years, as recognised by the Government recently in their announcement of 7,000 new ones. We have lost thousands of staff and are not training enough to take their place. Without adequate numbers of health professionals, we will not be able to host these beneficial clinical trials. That is why your Lordships focused so hard on the need for effective workforce planning during the passage of the Health and Care Act 2022.

The effect of this on patients is central to why we must improve their access to potentially life-saving treatments—but it is actually diminishing, partly because the setting-up time of trials is so slow. This also discourages companies, of course, despite the attractiveness of the NHS with its enormous cohort of patients. Relevant to the levelling-up agenda is the discrepancy between patients’ access to clinical trials in different parts of the UK. Cancer Research UK found that cancer patients in west London were 71% more likely to have opportunities to take part in research than patients in Cheshire and Merseyside.

I share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, about Alzheimer’s and dementia research. There is huge potential here for the UK to become a global leader—but again we are lagging behind. Over the past five years we have seen a decline in the number of dementia clinical trials taking place in the UK, and the number of participants. Since 2020, the number of phase 3 trials has increased in Germany, France and Italy but fallen here. So can I ask the Minister whether the Government are still committed to the £160 million of funding promised in their manifesto and recommitted to in August this year? Will the Government adhere to the recently announced national dementia mission? I ask because they have dropped so many other very important health-related measures which had been agreed by Parliament. I refer to the mental health Bill, the anti-smoking strategy following the Khan review, the health disparities White Paper and all the anti-obesity measures in the Health and Care Act—which we appear to have wasted our time on.

Looking forward, there are several other areas of research that show great promise and in which we have an opportunity to lead the world. My noble friend has talked about advanced gene and cell therapies. Those should be made and trialled here to make the most of the economic opportunities as well as the benefits for patients.

Health and Social Care Update

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for those excellent points. I have to declare a further interest: my wife is not only a dentist, she is a dentist originally from the Dominican Republic who practised in Spain for 20 years before coming here. So many of the excellent points the noble Baroness made are well recognised here. I am in the market for good ideas, so I will meet with the noble Baroness with pleasure to understand and discuss some of the ideas she spoke about.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, the health service is suffering from inflation in the same way as the rest of us. Julian Kelly, NHS England’s chief finance officer, told the board recently that it will have to find £20 billion in efficiency savings over the next three years because of the increased cost of goods and services that it buys. He said that

“clearly you have to completely revisit investment in cancer and mental health, primary care … diagnostic capacity and you would have to look at what it meant in total for what the NHS could deliver.”

With that situation, could the Minister say how on earth we are going to deliver the plan for patients?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

As I mentioned earlier, yes, there are inflationary pressures, but as a percentage of our national wealth—our GDP—we are investing more than ever before, at around 12%. That level is very high compared with most other OECD countries. So, the investment and the staffing are there. I think the correct challenge, which I have heard from a number of Members today, is whether we are getting the best performance out of that money and investment. Again, that is very much where I have been brought in—to make sure that we are taking those areas that are performing well and disseminating that good practice. That is where I would like to focus my attention, to make sure that we really are getting the maximum output possible from this record level of investment.

Cannabis: Medicinal Use

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

First, I thank the noble Baroness for meeting with my colleague, my noble friend Lady Penn, yesterday. When I became a Minister, the Permanent Sec recognised a potential conflict of interest, which I have been told means that I cannot meet with people about this particular issue, but I can answer this Question if I declare my interest. So I better quickly declare it: I used to work for a think tank that received some funding from the medicinal cannabis industry, and I shared a round table. That immediately ruled me out as having a conflict of interest. None the less, I am very happy to facilitate meetings with my ministerial colleagues. As the noble Baroness will be aware, there is a new ministerial colleague in place at the moment. The point remains that we have asked the industry, which makes lots of money in this area, to come forward and fund trials, but it has preferred not to do so.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I understand that the MHRA is considering extending its compassionate access scheme, particularly regarding the import of Celixir20 from Israel. A number of children with rare forms of drug-resistant epilepsy rely on this medicine. Given the severity of the crisis of access to NHS prescriptions for medicinal cannabis, can the Minister ensure that there are no barriers to the MHRA acting now to extend this scheme?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an important point about working with the importer of those medicines. The MHRA is exceptionally continuing to allow those medicines and is hoping to work with the importer and the Israeli company itself to see whether they will go through the MHRA approval process. In Israel, there are two ways of supplying the product: one is medicinal and the another is for non-medicinal cannabis uses. It has advised us that this is not a licensed medicine in Israel, and therefore we are asking the company to come forward. In the meantime, we are looking at an interim solution.

Health Improvement and Food Production

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Walmsley]

To move that this House takes note of the relationship between improving the overall health of the nation and food production.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to introduce this debate about three things very close to my heart: food, the health of our population and the planet. I do not need to explain the very strong link between these three.

We produce some excellent food in this country, but our farmers and fishermen have had a tough time over the last few years, especially if their markets are abroad and if they rely on foreign workers to harvest their crops. Therefore my first question to the Minister is: what are the Government planning to do about that?

Despite the quality of our food, our national food system is broken. We eat too much of the wrong things and it is making us ill, limiting our years of healthy life and costing the NHS millions. The Government are resisting some of the levers that could help put it right. As in other countries, the resilience of our food security is under pressure because of the illegal invasion of Ukraine, which is one of the world’s biggest wheat and vegetable oil producers; the cost of fertilisers for our domestic farmers is also badly affected. This is one of the factors causing the rise in the price of food. However, the recent national food plan published by Henry Dimbleby set out four objectives for improving our broken food system. They were:

“Make us well instead of sick … Be resilient enough to withstand global shocks … Help to restore nature and halt climate change … Meet the standards the public expect, on health, environment, and animal welfare”.


Those are four very good objectives.

The first questions are: what is a healthy diet and is it available to everyone? Experts agree that it must contain a balance of all the major nutrients, vitamins and minerals in adequate quantities for our age and other physical factors. However, the evidence of obesity in our country and the rise of diseases connected to it, such as diabetes, heart disease, cancer, musculoskeletal problems and stroke, shows that a healthy diet is not acceptable to many, particularly in the poorest demographic groups. Two out of five children are above a healthy weight by the time they leave primary school and a quarter are obese. Children in deprived areas are twice as likely to be overweight. Some 28% of adults are overweight and 36% obese; again, the risk is higher in the lower demographic groups and certain ethnic communities. This is not because these people are greedy, but mainly because they are poor and are eating the cheapest food they can get hold of. Many in fact do not have enough food and are forced to use food banks to feed the family. It is a disgrace that, in a rich country such as ours, some children would go hungry but for charities such as the Trussell Trust.

Sadly, the cheapest calories are often high in sugar, salt and fat and are the ones that contribute most to being overweight. Fruit and vegetables, and good-quality meat and fish cost more than fast food but highly processed food, manufactured in massive amounts, is sold cheaply on every high street. Henry Dimbleby explained it this way:

“Because there is a bigger market for unhealthy food, companies invest more into developing and marketing it. This in turn expands the market further still. The bigger the market, the greater the economies of scale. Highly processed foods—high in salt, refined carbohydrates, sugar and fats, and low in fibre—are on average three times cheaper per calorie than healthier foods.”


So, what can we do? Dimbleby suggested that we must escape this junk food cycle to protect the NHS and reduce diet-related inequality by reducing the consumption of HFSS foods by 25% and increasing fibre by 50% and fruit and veg by 30% to reach healthy levels. To reach the carbon budget, we need to reduce our meat consumption by 30%, because 85% of our farmland is used to grow feed or grass for farm animals. If we could make these changes, we could promote a healthy gut—one of the most important organs in the body—save the NHS millions and put some less productive farmland to other, desirable uses. There are various ways in which the Government could contribute.

I agree with Dimbleby’s conclusion that we must get healthy food directly to our children and at the same time save their parents money by expanding eligibility for healthy free school meals. This has now twice been recommended by Dimbleby but twice refused by the Government—can the Minister say why? The Government set up the Healthy Start scheme and the holiday food scheme, on which they should be congratulated, but have not accepted Dimbleby’s latest proposition to expand those schemes, despite their success. The Lords Committee report in 2020, Hungry for Change, also recommended this. Can the Minister explain why it is not being done?

I turn to food production. We are not self-sufficient and probably never will be, but 54% to 60% of our food is grown by our own domestic farmers. We must protect them, but that is not to say that they might not need to change what they do. Only last week the Climate Change Committee issued serious warnings about agricultural policy, but farmers are currently under pressure from many quarters. We ask them to grow more food and, at the same time, to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, use less fertiliser, stop polluting watercourses, increase biodiversity, plant more trees, improve their soil, protect carbon sinks such as peatlands, grow biofuels, site wind and solar farms, provide leisure opportunities—and on it goes. The pressure on land use is enormous, and they are not making it any more. I welcome the Government’s recent announcement that they will produce a land use strategy next year. Can the Minister give us any insights into how health and food production will be balanced with all the other pressures on land in the forthcoming strategy, and what levers the Government are considering using to achieve it?

Farmers have to plan now, and they need help with the environmental land management scheme payments, which are to replace the former support system. It certainly makes sense that farmers should not be paid for how much land they have but for the public goods they provide. However, every farm, and every soil, is different, and there are many schemes to which farmers can apply for support. The large landscape section of ELMS has had 51 applicants for 15 initial schemes—some from large estates, but some from groups of farmers who want to work together to improve the landscape. That is encouraging, so I hope the Minister can assure me that some of the successful schemes will include small farms working together. I know he has received a note about this from Defra, because I asked the department to send it to him, so I hope it is not unfair to ask him these questions.

The local nature recovery scheme criteria will be available at the end of the year. This strikes me as rather slow, because farmers have to plan now how to respond to all these pressures. Can the Minister say how soon the funds for that part of the scheme will become available? The sustainable farming initiative applications opened last week. Farmers can apply online, and new software can help them identify what might be appropriate for them. However, we still have the overlapping countryside stewardship scheme, environmental stewardship scheme and others. I hope your Lordships see where I am coming from: we currently have maximum complexity of schemes—some beginning, some ending—and an alphabet soup of acronyms.

In its recent report on nature-based solutions to achieving net zero, the Science and Technology Select Committee recommended that an independent advisory service—human beings rather than software—should be provided to help farmers increase food production sustainably while also making a living. Can the Minister say what progress has been made in this respect? Many farmers will have to change their business model. That is risky, so they need good advice.

One of the problems we face is the large number of tenant farmers in the UK. Tenants might be reluctant to make improvements to the land if it is their landlord who will benefit in the long term. Soil improvement does not happen overnight—I know that from my own garden—so a farmer with a short tenancy might be reluctant to do it. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Rock, is looking into this for the Government. I hope the Minister might be able to give us an insight into her interim recommendations; otherwise, I will have to ask her.

Our farmers have very high standards, so the last thing we must do is offshore our food production to countries that might produce higher emissions. We cannot police their standards of animal welfare or pesticide use. Then, of course, there are food miles. Since Brexit, there has been a reduced ability to check the quality of food coming in, according to a recent report by the Food Standards Agency. In addition, countries such as Australia and New Zealand have economies of scale in meat production with their enormous farms, which could put our livestock farmers at a great disadvantage. Can the Minister say how the Government will avoid putting farmers out of business or offshoring food production when negotiating trade deals? Will the Government set up a trade and agriculture commission, as proposed by Dimbleby?

The Government have indicated that they will provide more support for horticulture. This is good news, as we produce only 35% of our current supply of fruit and veg, but this will need to increase by nearly 90% if we are to increase our consumption, as advised by Dimbleby. Will the Minister say whether projects that make use of rainwater and renewable energy capture, technology and innovation will attract government support?

In north Wales a couple of years ago, a proposal to use the heat from a sewage works through heat exchangers to heat glasshouses to produce half the tomatoes and cucumbers needed by Wales was turned down by the local planning authority—all that locally produced food, all those jobs, all that energy and water saving lost because of a lack of vision. I hope the Minister can tell me that the Government have more vision than my local authority.

I turn to highly processed food. Not all our food comes straight out of the ground or the water; a great deal of it comes out of a factory. As we have heard, it is cheap and often contains too much salt, sugar and fat. There have been voluntary reductions, but they do not go far enough. Yet the Government resist mandatory measures, such as an extended sugar and salt tax. Can the Minister justify the claim that a small tax on sugar and salt in HFSS foods for manufacture and catering will increase the cost of food for poor people?

The advertising restrictions on HFSS foods before the watershed and online have been postponed. Can the Minister confirm that there will be no further postponement, despite today’s events?

Labelling can help people choose healthier food, but it can be difficult to identify what is really a healthy food. It is not hard for a piece of broccoli, an apple or a piece of fish, but it is a different matter for products with multiple ingredients. The Minister might remember our discussions, led by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, during the passage of the Health and Care Bill about high-protein bars. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, helpfully pointed out that the bar in question was high in salt and sugar and low in fibre, so not very healthy at all.

Since then, the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and I have received material from a group of young people called Bite Back. Its report, Don’t Hide What’s Inside, explored the eating habits of 1,000 13 to 18 year-olds and examined the impact that packaging claims have on their perceptions of health. It found that three-quarters of young people think that their diet is healthy, despite the fact that their intake of sugar, fruit and veg, and fibre is nowhere near the Government’s daily recommendations. Almost nine in 10 think that smoothies are healthy, but 76% of juices and smoothies would get a red traffic light label for sugar. Eight in 10 believe that cereal bars are healthy, but 81% of those would get a red traffic light label for sugar. The report gives other examples.

Half of those surveyed agreed that health and nutrition messaging makes them more likely to buy a product. This makes the rules about labelling important but it is too often misleading. To demonstrate this, a fake snack bar was invented. It was made entirely from mud but branded as 100% natural, high in fibre, a great source of minerals and low in fat, which was true but also completely outrageous, since there was nothing in it but mud. It was done to call out big food brands on their manipulative marketing tactics and to make them step up with clear and honest packaging. The Government are being asked to introduce a clear, mandatory labelling policy, including declarations of free sugars, traffic-light labels, a review of where the thresholds should be lowered, regulation to end the use of health and nutrition claims on an unhealthy product and consistent portion sizes across categories. Will the Minister consider the young people’s proposals? If not, I suspect they might send him a mud bar.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and everybody who has taken part in this small but perfectly formed debate. It has been cross-departmental, which is why I asked Defra to send the Minister some notes. If the Defra Minister had been responding, I think the noble Lord would have had to send him some notes, and vice versa. It was quite a difficult challenge for the Minister to have such a cross-departmental topic.

I am very grateful to noble Lords who elaborated things that I had time to mention only briefly in my initial remarks. In fact, some mentioned things that I did not have time to mention at all. I am grateful that the Minister mentioned the link between mental health and being overweight, and the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, mentioned the difficulties of the Procurement Bill and the possible contradiction between that Bill and the Health and Care Act. None of us had the chance to talk about the importance of teaching children to cook, for example, but I am so grateful that everybody mentioned food and health inequality, because it is a very big issue. Although the Government are doing some things to help address that, I think most contributors to today’s debate have suggested more things that we would like to have seen them do.

I want to take the Minister up on one point: he said that there appears to have been some sort of opposition to importing food. In fact, I think both the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and I acknowledged the fact that we are not self-sufficient in food and are not going to be. What is important is that, first, we make sure that the standard of food that comes in is what the public expect and, secondly, as even the Government are now saying, in order for our food system to be resilient we need to produce as much as possible in this country in a sustainable way, while acknowledging all the other things that farmers have to do.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkham, talked about happiness, and I could not agree with him more. My noble friend Lady Brinton talked about the socialisation of food, and somebody mentioned that the slower you eat, the less you probably eat, and that you relax while you do it and it does you good. I certainly agree on that point, but I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkham, that anybody is trying to lecture people. What people are trying to do is to help and encourage others, to make recommendations and to make good food accessible to everybody in the country. Of course, that is what the Government are trying to do, but we would like to see more. Henry Dimbleby was certainly not lecturing anybody; he based his recommendations on the science and good advice from experts. We should all listen to what he had to say.

I was a bit concerned about what my noble friend Lady Brinton said about the danger of reducing the quality of school meals, and I hope the Minister will keep an eye on that as the price of food increases. We do not want to see that, because I know that the Government are trying to get good food directly to children.

With those few words, I thank everybody who has taken part. I know more people would have liked to speak, but the time of day and day of the week meant that some of the great experts on this topic in the House were not able to join us—and we miss them, of course.

Motion agreed.

Personal Protective Equipment: Waste

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I think we should look at the context of this £9 billion or £12 billion figure. We must remember that, at the time, market prices were inflated. We could not have bought the equipment at the prices you can pay for it today. The Government at the time had to make an estimate. If they had bought too little equipment, they would rightly have been criticised. Given that you can never make absolutely accurate predictions, on balance it is better to procure more than less. I was speaking to a Democrat politician from United States the other day. He said, “I just made the decision to procure as much as possible, but I knew I would get the flak afterwards. Lives were more important.”

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, at the beginning of the pandemic a great deal of PPE which was in store was already out of date and could not be used. Any homemaker knows that you look at the use-by date of the stuff in your fridge and try to use it before it goes out of date. Can the Minister say whether there is now a proper record-keeping system for the use-by dates of any PPE that is in store in anticipation of any future emergency need?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I think that the noble Baroness will recognise from when I was asked a previous Oral Question on this issue that where there was an official sell-by date, we had asked a couple of companies from which we had procured the equipment to look at whether that life could be extended. I am not sure of the details, so I commit to write to the noble Baroness.