Female Genital Mutilation

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tonge]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many cases of female genital mutilation were investigated by the police in the last year for which figures are available.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, information on the number of police investigations involving female genital mutilation is not collected centrally. However, the Government work closely with the police and the Crown Prosecution Service to ensure that they are equipped with guidance and information to deal with cases of FGM, and that they are clear on their legal powers to protect women and girls from this abhorrent practice.

[Baroness Tonge]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Is she aware that between November 2009 and November 2011 there were 63 alleged cases reported to the Metropolitan Police which never reached prosecution? Will she undertake to ask the Government to set up a technical review to find out why these cases do not come to prosecution in order to ensure that proper training is given to doctors and midwives to stop this practice in this country? Does she agree that successful prosecutions are the only way to deter families from perpetrating this terrible mutilation on their daughters?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I can inform the noble Baroness that in September 2011 the CPS launched a female genital mutilation guidance pack that has been developed to assist prosecutors in what she knows are extremely complex cases. We are intending to monitor that guidance over 12 months and we will evaluate the results. The Government are of course also working closely with schools, health service staff, charities and community groups so that through the multi-agencies we are able to raise as much awareness as we can. As to the noble Baroness’s point on prosecutions, this is an issue that at the end of the day will achieve results only when the communities themselves decide really to engage with bringing forward perpetrators.

[Baroness Rendell of Babergh]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the unwillingness of young girls to go into court and give evidence? FGM is an abhorrent practice but is not regarded as such by many of the young girls themselves and by those who advise them. There are many who tell them that if they are not mutilated they will not become real women, they will not find a man to marry them, and they are bullied and victimised by their contemporaries. Is the Minister further aware that if they go into court they may be required to testify against their own parents or family members and people they have known and had a close relationship with all their lives?

[Baroness Verma]

I think the noble Baroness has hit the nail on the head. That is why it is so difficult to get prosecutions. There is also an embedded cultural issue. Until we reach out and get through to the older women in those communities and get them to respond to the young girls who are often unwilling to undergo these practices, we will never get to the nub of the problem. However, I must say that I have come across young people—both men and women—from those communities where FGM is being practised who are beginning openly to stand up to say that they oppose it. That is a positive sign for us all.

[Baroness Morris of Bolton]

My Lords, two or three years ago I attended a round-table multi-agency discussion in Birmingham on female genital mutilation. One of the main problems in getting the message across to some insular communities is the language barrier and the lack of female interpreters. There was real concern that many male interpreters do not convey the fact that FGM is a crime with serious consequences. Can my noble friend say what the position is on interpreters and whether this is still a problem?

[Baroness Verma]

I cannot answer my noble friend directly on the position of female interpreters because that information is not held centrally. However, I can reassure her and your Lordships' House that the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and all those involved in the issue take it incredibly seriously and are working with the sensitivity that it requires. I repeat that unless the communities themselves are willing to engage with outside organisations, this will remain a problem.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I recently attended an international seminar in Brussels which was focused, as the noble Baroness suggests, on how communities can themselves help with this issue. What is being done to engage the communities themselves? How can we learn from some African countries, which are taking work into the communities, rather than trying to find ways ourselves and not succeeding?

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Baroness raises an important point about engagement with the communities. We have set up an FGM fund of £50,000 through which we are helping to fund 10 organisations on the front line that are helping to prevent FGM within those communities. It is important that the results and the influences come from within the communities, so we are engaged with working closely not only with the young people through school education but with the older generation through community groups.

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, is it not also of critical importance for victims to get appropriate help and support? Is it not therefore the role of the Crown Prosecution Service to support those victims so they are enabled to give their evidence? Are the specialist prosecutors who deal with violence against women still able to do that, bearing in mind the cuts? Is that not something that we should pursue with greater vigour?

[Baroness Verma]

The noble and learned Baroness is absolutely right. That is why the Home Office has ring-fenced £28 million—so that we have those specialist services in place and so that those victims are able to access as much support as we can possibly give them, not just in terms of health and social services but being able to provide accommodation and all the other things that they require if they want to move from the communities that are imposing FGM on them.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, did my noble friend see the excellent report on “Newsnight” last night on this barbaric practice in Egypt? I was shocked to learn that 90 per cent of women, both Christian and Muslim, are subjected to this awful custom. Is she aware whether the schools in this country are playing their role? Some groups who campaign on the ground and work with young women and their families tell me that the Department for Education says that it does not collate any information that would help in this matter and that it is not really a problem, but schools know when girls are taken out of the country to have this procedure performed.

[Baroness Verma]

I did not watch the programme last night because I was here, sitting in the Chamber.

[A noble Lord]

Working.

[Baroness Verma]

Working, yes. However, I did hear about the programme this morning and people have said how appalled they were by what they saw. The noble Baroness asked about schools. Some 80,000 leaflets and posters have been distributed among schools and healthcare services. But the noble Baroness is absolutely right: we need to do a lot more.

Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Approved Premises) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My Lords—

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, to assist the House I suggest we hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches first, maybe then the Convenor of the Cross Benches, followed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and then the Bishops.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, we complain when primary legislation is not commenced or implemented. The first instinct of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, was absolutely right, though he then extended his arguments. We also complain when legislation is not clear. This is not the case today. The Merits Committee, of which I am a member, did not make a judgment on the merits of the substance of this order. It used its entirely standard language, drawing it to the special attention of the House on the grounds that,

“it gives rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House”.

That statement is quite uncontentious.

I can see from those already attempting to intervene that we will hear today closely argued analysis of a construction of the words “Act”, “authority” and “services”, and I am always glad to recruit such expertise to the cause. Essentially, however, the issue is, “Does the order do what Section 202 of the Equality Act provides?”. I believe that it does. Or, “Does it require any individual or organisation to do what they do not wish to do?”. I believe that it does not. The order cannot trump primary legislation, nor can it require what the Act itself precludes. As we have been reminded, primary legislation says that nothing places an obligation on religious organisations to host civil partnerships if they do not wish to do so. If there are differing views within an organisation, that is not a matter for government.

The noble Baroness uses in her prayer the word “pledge”. It is not a pledge—or rather, it is more than a pledge—because the words are in Section 202. That section is surely permissive: it is an opt-in, not an opt-out. We know there are objections to it, but that was a matter for 2010. I say that to those who would like to extend that section, as well as to those who would like to see it interpreted restrictively. To attempt now to reverse it, extend it or block it, is inappropriate.

I will be quick because there are so many noble Lords who wish to speak. I find it very difficult to see anxiety engendered among people with a particular view. I do not like to see people fed fear. I realise that something that may seem entirely reasonable to me may seem very prejudicial to you, whoever you and I are—that is, whichever side of the argument one is on. I will end by voicing what others might see as my own prejudices. That 46,000 couples have entered into civil partnerships is wonderful; 92,000 people have been able to give formal, legal expression to their relationship. It is a paradox that some who advocate celebrating marriage within a faith oppose extending it to other stable relationships. I welcome the order and look forward to taking forward Section 202.

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[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, perhaps we may hear from someone on the Conservative Benches and then come back to the noble Lord.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, it is absolutely plain that the noble Lord, Lord Alli, and those who supported him in the amendment moved in the debates on the Equality Act 2010—Section 202—were clearly of the view that no obligation should be placed upon any religious body to host a civil partnership if they did not wish to do so. That is absolutely plain. What is more, they were prepared to put into the amendment a statutory provision that declared that nothing in this Act would place an obligation on religious organisations to do so.

That amendment was made by the Equality Act 2010, but it was made to Section 6A of the Civil Partnership Act 2004. If you go along to the Printed Paper Office and ask for a copy of the 2004 Act, you will discover that it contains no Section 6A. That is because Section 6A was put into the Act by a regulation in 2005. That regulation was made under a provision in the Civil Partnership Act allowing statutory amendments to be made in respect of the Acts that were passed before the end of the Session in which the 2004 Act was passed. Therefore, any enactment contained in an Act passed before the end of 2004 can be amended by statutory regulation, using the affirmative procedure.

The point that arises in this case is a short one and I am not going to go into the opinions of the QCs. Noble Lords have had the great advantage of hearing another QC giving an opposite opinion—and it is not infrequent that that happens. I am going to give no opinion at all about the correctness or otherwise of the provision. They are practising QCs. They have signed their opinions, they are genuinely held and they illustrate a doubt—that is all—about the effect of the Equality Act on these regulations.

My point is that the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Alli, and his colleagues put forward, which was accepted on a free vote in this House and the House of Commons, refers to nothing in this Act, but only to provisions in the 2004 Act. The opinion of these Silks is that the risk arises not from the provisions of the 2004 Act but from the provisions of the Equality Act 2010. To my mind, this issue can be completely set to rest by a simple amendment. Instead of saying “nothing in this Act shall”, the provision would say “nothing in this or any other Act shall”. The Government could do that without difficulty because I am sure we are all agreed that we mean to exclude any attack on the basis of the Equality Act.

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[The Lord Bishop of Blackburn]

My Lords—

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, we have plenty of time. Perhaps we could hear from the right reverend Prelate and then from the noble Baroness.

[The Lord Bishop of Blackburn]

My Lords, of course I share the concerns expressed by others about how these regulations might affect other churches. However, like my brother the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford, I should like to say how I think these regulations might affect the Church of England, although I shall perhaps be looking through a slightly different part of the lens.

At the moment, the Church of England, through the General Synod, has not expressed any desire at all for its churches to be used for registering civil partnerships. Therefore, it might be thought that I should be very content to rely simply on the provisions of the regulations that would require the consent of the General Synod to be given before any Church of England church could be approved for registering civil partnerships. However, it seems that this provision is not without difficulty. As your Lordships will know, we have special procedures in General Synod for matters that affect the doctrine or liturgy of the church. It could be thought by some that allowing churches to be used for civil partnerships would affect the doctrine or worship of the church. If so, those special procedures would come into play.

The provision in the schedule to the regulations talks simply about requiring the consent in writing of the General Synod without defining how that consent is to be obtained. If at some future date the proper consent of General Synod were obtained, there could still be difficulties for individual clergy. There are, as we have heard, a variety of legal opinions about whether a claim for discrimination against a priest who refused to allow his or her church to be used for registering a civil partnership would succeed. However, at the end of the day, clergy should not be put at risk of having to defend such claims, even if they seem unlikely and their prospect of success seems remote.

It seems clear, however, that an incumbent who refused to allow his or her church to be approved for civil partnerships would gain no protection from Regulation 2B, because the obligation not to discriminate comes not from the regulations but from the Equality Act. Regulation 2B would appear to be nothing more than window-dressing, and it shows how unsatisfactory these regulations are. There may be good intent but the promised conscience clause simply is not there. It cannot be there in regulations; either the Equality Act or the Civil Partnership Act needs to be amended to provide the necessary clause. I would want to see an express statutory conscience clause similar to that contained in Section 8 of the Matrimonial Causes Act 1965, which provides that no priest of the Church of England or the Church in Wales can be compelled to allow their church or chapel to be used for the solemnisation of a marriage of a divorced person whose former spouse is still living.

As the General Synod has not expressed any desire for Church of England churches and chapels to be approved for registering civil partnerships, there is surely no need for the Church of England to be included in these regulations at all. Indeed, it should be expressly excluded from them; otherwise, might it look as though Parliament is breaking what I understand to be the convention that it legislates for the Church of England only when the church has asked it to? If at some future date General Synod decided—

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[Baroness Verma]

The noble Baroness, Lady Richardson, has been trying to get in for a long time. We will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, afterwards.

[Baroness Richardson of Calow]

My Lords, I rejoice that many Christians and some churches have acknowledged that for some men and women, a loving, committed, intimate, faithful relationship can happen only within a same-sex partnership. I want to delight in that. I want to celebrate it with ceremony and joy, and I want those couples to be encouraged to take their rightful place in creative responsibility and participation in all society. I also want to learn from them the things that God is saying about His grace being given to human beings who are made in His image in infinite variety.

I am well aware that my theological viewpoint is vehemently opposed by many people, including many in this House, but it is a legitimate viewpoint that I could argue with many people. I hope today that while it is obvious that this legislation for registration of civil partnerships in religious buildings is permissive, I do not want it to be made obligatory but neither do I want it to be prohibited. Many churches have the right through their decision-making processes to determine their own theological position and to be able to follow through with many people what is for them the root celebration of their whole being.

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords—

[Baroness Verma]

Let us hear from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, this has been a remarkable debate. I only wish that there had been a similar debate in the other place, but there was not. We have heard two former Lord Chancellors taking different views, and two members of the Bishop’s Bench taking opposite views, in the same debate. The remarkable fact is that there has also been substantial common ground in almost all the speeches that have been made. First, this is clearly a highly sensitive issue involving deep matters of principle. Secondly, churches that do not wish to register civil partnerships should not be obliged to do so, but conversely churches that do wish to do so should be allowed to do so. The Government have made a serious attempt in these regulations to put these matters into law. Today’s decision clearly depends on a judgment as to whether, after the proper consultation by the Government, they have succeeded in that aim.

I shall briefly give my own explanation of this. It is clear that, because of the exemption to the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England and the church in Wales, they have been largely satisfied that the safeguards are sufficient for them. It is also clear that there have been learned and weighty opinions on both sides of the argument. Professor Hill has been mentioned, as have Mr O’Neill and Mr Goulding. The advice of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, in his letter of 13 December, states that the lawyers appear to contradict one another.

For me the question is this: is there a doubt that the regulations have properly put into effect the views of the Government? If there is a doubt, is it a fanciful doubt or is it a serious doubt? Is there at the very least an arguable case that the Government have failed to provide adequate safeguards? The lawyers’ different views and the views expressed today suggest that there is a real, not a fanciful, doubt and the churches should not have to defend themselves against possible well resourced litigants.

I note the undertaking given by the Minister in his letter, which I have cited, that if, contrary to his view, there were to be a successful legal challenge, if one were to be brought, there would be an immediate review by government. That is welcome as far it goes, and I hope that in replying the Minister will put in his speech similar, or perhaps even stronger, undertakings. No Government can bind their successors and it is surely far better for the Government to end any possible doubt by taking these regulations back and by showing that there are amendments that close a possible loophole, thus preventing a serious legal challenge being made to them. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has suggested one way in which this should be done. Mr O’Neill has suggested another way. That is the reasonable response which the House should make today.

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[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords—

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, may we hear from the Conservative Benches, then from the Liberal Democrats, and then from across the House?

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I was pleased to be able to add my name to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Alli, in the Equality Act and I am equally pleased to be standing here today supporting my Government in bringing forward the regulations, which will complete what we started. I am proud of the journey that my party has made from opposition to civil partnerships to full acceptance of and delight in seeing these regulations taken forward. I do not understand why, but we have a free vote on these Benches. I do not believe that it is a matter of conscience. I believe, as has been said today, that it is legal interpretation of whether these regulations give effect to what we are clear that Parliament thought that we had to do. We have the luxury of a free vote, and that as it happens is a nice thing, but it means that we must use our free vote wisely or we must be clear that we are using it in the right way.

I do not believe that the majority of my party now opposes civil partnerships. We want to see an end to the discrimination against couples entering civil partnerships whereby they are prohibited from celebrating it on religious premises when the religious body wishes to take part in it. We should do the right thing today and end that discrimination and not take fright at some highly disputed legal argument, especially given the Minister’s undertaking that should there be a legal problem the Government will ultimately deal with it. I hope that my noble friends will join me in supporting the Government if it proves necessary.

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[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords—

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, could speak, we could then hear from the Labour Benches.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

I was going to defer to my noble friend Lord Lester.

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[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords—

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and then from the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, in my maiden speech to this House, my first thanks went to the officials and staff for their warm introduction. Not only did they make me feel extremely welcome, they made my husband Rafael feel extremely welcome, too. My second thanks went to your Lordships, not least for the fact that I was able to say “my husband”. These Benches have helped transform my life and the lives of countless lesbian and gay people in this country. I am immensely pleased that it is no longer just noble friends on one side of this House who applaud progress in this area but Peers on every side of the Chamber. That consensus is a sign of this House at its best.

I am therefore very sad that, despite this strong consensus, we have this Motion before us today—sad because it reflects neither the view of the majority of noble Lords nor the intent of the regulations arising from Section 202 of the Equality Act 2010. It is because I strongly support the principle of religious freedom that I welcomed the adoption of this section in the Act—that is, the freedom that would allow a church to say no to civil partnership ceremonies conducted in their premises or by their priests. Equally, if a religious institution or church does wish to celebrate a civil partnership, it should be able to do so. The unconditional right for lesbian and gay marriage through civil partnership can only be a civil one. That is a responsibility the state must ensure is provided without discrimination, fear or retribution. But just as I believe the Church should not interfere with the rights and responsibilities of civic society, I equally believe that the state should not interfere with the conduct of religion or ceremonies in places of worship.

As we have heard today, Section 202 is, as was always intended by those who supported it across the House, entirely permissive. We have heard clear legal opinion from the Church of England and the Government, and many prominent legal counsel have supported this view. The points made by Professor Hill, on which the noble Baroness relies, have also been considered, as we have heard, by Paul Goulding QC in a detailed written opinion, which I know many noble Lords will have seen. It is clear from Mr Goulding’s opinion that neither the regulations nor any part of the law would compel religious organisations to host civil partnerships against their wishes. In particular, he points to the provisions of the Equality Act which expressly state that. My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer argued this case so well in agreement with Mr Goulding’s opinion.

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[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, could speak first and then my noble friend Lord Cormack.

[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords, had I spoken earlier in this debate, I would have made a lengthy speech, much of which has been overtaken by the course of events, which would have been in support of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain. I maintain my support for her today.

Much legal opinion has been expressed on both sides of the argument and a fair consensus would appear to have emerged, but I am left with a residual feeling of ambiguity. Ambiguity can give rise to unintended consequences, and it is unintended consequences that I am worried about. Those consequences arise from regulations that are not crystal clear and have worried a lot of ordinary decent people up and down this country, who have filled noble Lords’ postbags and mine in the past few days.

The noble Lord, Lord Henley, circulated his letter, which we received yesterday, in which he states—and we have heard it repeated already today—that,

“if a successful legal challenge were ever brought, I would like to provide reassurance that the Government would immediately review the relevant legislation”.

If we think that there is some doubt or ambiguity in this case, and if we think that ambiguity could lead to unintended consequences, there is an obligation on the Minister to activate that sentence in the last paragraph of his letter and, for the avoidance of doubt, to make it crystal clear—an expression that we have heard many times in this Chamber today—to people up and down the country, whoever they are, that they have nothing to fear from these regulations. Until I hear a commitment to the avoidance of doubt, I maintain my support for the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain.

National Well-being

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Layard]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, on proposing and securing this debate. I strongly agreed with everything that she said.

I do not think that there is any issue more topical or more urgent than this. Even before the economic crisis began, people world wide were beginning to question whether economic growth really should be the key touchstone of the policies of their Governments. “Surely”, people were saying, “human well-being must be the ultimate goal”.

Among governmental organisations, the greatest credit goes to the OECD for being daring enough to highlight this issue in 2004 when it began the first of its great conferences on defining progress. When it comes to individual countries, Britain is seen world wide as being the country, other than Bhutan, which has done more to promote well-being as a government objective, to think about it and to move towards measuring it. It is fair to say that many people around the world are looking at Britain to see what lessons can be learnt from how we are handling these issues here.

Of course, this started under the previous Government. We had well-being divisions set up in many departments, including health, employment, education and environment, and in 2009 the Office for National Statistics began its work on how to measure our national well-being. That said, of all the political leaders in the advanced world, our present Prime Minister has been outstanding in championing the idea that well-being should be a central, if not the central, objective of government. He said it in 2006, when he first became leader of the Conservative Party and talked about general and national well-being, and he said it even more emphatically when the measurement exercise was launched last November. He was absolutely right—I am not sure whether the right reverend Prelate would agree—that if you ask what is the purpose of government, it is difficult to see any other purpose for government than to create the conditions in which people can lead happy lives. How they find happiness is a subtle matter, but the Government create many of the conditions in which people lead their lives and surely that should be the basic guiding principle. I agree with Thomas Jefferson, who said that the care of human life and happiness is the first legitimate objective of government. I challenge anyone to come up with any other legitimate objective of government.

Perhaps I may comment first on the issue of measurement and then on the policy implications of the well-being objective and the Government’s performance in that respect. As the noble Baroness said, if you do the wrong thing, you search for your keys where the light is rather than where they really are. You only do the right thing if you measure the right thing.

It used to be supposed that it was impossible to measure the quality of life as people experience it in themselves, but in the past 30 years there has been an explosion of research on happiness which has shown that it is as measurable as any other internal state. We measure people’s political attitudes and do not think that is highly controversial; we measure whether they are unemployed, which depends on their state of mind in the way that it is measured in our official statistics; and how to measure depression used to be a subject of controversy but it no longer is. I am quite sure that in due course we will have a settled way of measuring well-being.

We currently have a number of ways and it is absolutely clear that although none of them is perfect—no measurement of anything is perfect—the measurements we already have provide valuable and meaningful information. For example, how people reply to questions about their happiness is closely related to the objective measurements you can make of electrical activity in the relevant parts of the brain, as well as being well related to the observations made by relatives, friends and observers; and the answers that people give to these questions are explicable in terms of many of the factors such as those mentioned by the noble Baroness.

This is not the place to discuss the exact questions the ONS is trialling—I declare an interest in that I have been involved in advising it about what questions to ask—but the Office for National Statistics, under its able chief statistician, has approached this issue in a most professional way. It has been testing many alternative approaches suggested by different people in addition to the four main questions it is already asking on a routine basis. By next summer they will have been answered, over a 12-month period, by 200,000 people

It will be an important moment when those results are published because it will give us, for the first time, an account of the state of the nation in terms of what I maintain matters most—how people actually experience and evaluate their lives. I am not sure whether it would be too grand to say that this will be a moment of comparable importance to the Domesday Book, or the first census, or certainly the great Rowntree surveys of wealth and poverty. It will show us, for the first time, who in our population is in misery and who is not. Many of the results will open our eyes, as did the Domesday Book, the census and the Rowntree surveys. It will be a very important moment in how we view our country.

It is also very important that the Government have insisted that the sample is big enough to provide valid and reliable results for each local authority area. One can imagine the debates in each council when they get their results and look at the distribution—where it is good, where it is bad and how it compares with other areas. It will be a wake-up call and I would be astonished if it does not lead spontaneously to a revision of the priorities of local government and of course—it is happening already to some extent—of central government.

Once you have got the measurements the next question is: why are things like this; what can be done about it? Of course, explaining the distribution of well-being—what are the causes of misery and happiness—should be, when we take into account the indirect causes as well as the direct causes, the main task of social science. We should think about the top priorities in social science.

We already know a great deal about what are the really important factors and the noble Baroness has already said much of it. I would say that, first, comes health—and mental health above all—and next comes human relationships, family, work, community, and money also matters to everyone. However, there are two important qualifications to that on which I would like to spend a little time.

First, in a country as rich as ours, relative income matters to people more than absolute income, and as our country becomes absolutely richer we cannot all become relatively richer compared to other people in our community; if some go up, others have to go down. This helps to explain why, as the noble Baroness said, there has been no increase in measured happiness despite the huge increases in absolute income experienced over the past 60 years.

It follows from this that although we need to deal with our immediate problem of unemployment and unused human resources, we need growth in the sense that we need short-run growth to get back to a state of full employment. We should not confuse that with long-run growth, which is much less important. We are going to have to revise our priorities away from the presumption before that almost anything could be sacrificed for the sake of greater long-term growth towards one where we put more priority on human relationships relative to long-run growth. We have put excessive priority on long-run growth and we have allowed it to erode our relationships in the family, work and so on. We have allowed the banks to argue that we need a highly risky economic structure on the grounds that it might produce more and higher long-term growth and we should not continue to accept those kinds of arguments. They are probably not even true in terms of long-term growth, and they are certainly wrong in terms of our values. Economic stability is far more important than long-term growth. The other caveat about money is that an additional pound increases the happiness of a poor person more than a rich person. Roughly speaking, the value of money to a person is inversely proportional to their income.

Finally, let me say a word about how the current actions of the Government stack up against the well-being objective. The Government face many constraints. They have made many important initiatives to promote well-being; in particular I would like to mention the one that the noble Baroness referred to: their commitment to complete the national rollout of improved access to psychological therapy. But if we look at the big picture, it is difficult to claim that the Government have prioritised well-being. Across income groups, the incidence of the overall cuts—including the expenditure cuts as well as the tax benefit changes—is affecting the poor more than the rich. This is inconsistent with what I said about the value of money to different parties. Across types of activity, the cuts are affecting our systems of human support for the young, the old and the unemployed more than they are affecting our capacity to produce long-term growth.

In fact, the Government have recently been hinting that they want to switch expenditure from current expenditure, which provides support for the social sector, towards higher infrastructure spending. As a founder member of the movement called Action for Happiness, I constantly hear stories about the devastating effect of this in terms of human well-being.

[Baroness Verma]

Can the noble Lord come to an end?

[Lord Layard]

I have tried to present a balanced scorecard. When the Government talk about the importance of well-being, I think it is totally sincere. It is a concern shared by all parties, but when it comes to the Government’s performance in delivering well-being, I am afraid that there is room for improvement.

Digital Technology

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Greenfield]

My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to introduce this timely debate.

We humans occupy more ecological niches than any other species on the planet. This is because our brains are superlatively evolved to adapt to our own particular environment: a process known as neuroplasticity. Thanks to their plasticity, the connections between our brain cells will be shaped, strengthened and constantly refined by our individual experiences. It is this personalisation of the physical brain, driven by unique interactions with the external world, that arguably constitutes the biological basis of each individual mind, so what will happen to that mind if the external world changes in unprecedented ways, for example with an all-pervasive digital technology?

A recent survey in the US showed that over half of teenagers aged 13 to 17 spend more than 30 hours a week, outside school, using computers and other web-connected devices. It follows that if the environment is being transformed for so much of the time into a fast paced and highly interactive two-dimensional space that is unprecedented, the brain will adapt accordingly, be it for good or ill, in unprecedented ways. Professor Michael Merzenich, from the University of California, San Francisco, gives a typical neuroscientific perspective. He states:

“There is a massive and unprecedented difference in how their (the digital natives') brains are plastically engaged in life compared with those of average individuals from earlier generations, and there is little question that the operational characteristics of the average modern brain substantially differ”.

The implications of such a sweeping change in mindset—let us call it mind change—must surely extend deep and wide into future education policy. Most obviously, time spent in front of a screen is time not spent doing other things. Indeed, several studies have already documented a link between the recreational use of computers and a decline in school performance. More basic still, though, is to understand in the first place why a screen environment using only sight and sound out-competes three-dimensional activities with all five senses stimulated.

Perhaps most important of all, we need to understand the full impact of the current cyberculture on the emotional and cognitive profile of the 21st century mind. Inevitably, there is no single catch-all soundbite but rather a variety of diverse issues. In the brief time permitted, let us look at just three. First, what is the impact of social networking sites on interpersonal skills and personal identity? Eye contact is a pivotal and sophisticated component of human interaction, as is subconscious monitoring of body language and, most powerful of all, physical contact, yet none of these experiences is available on social networking sites.

It follows that if a young brain with the evolutionary mandate to adapt to the environment is establishing relationships through the more sanitised medium of a screen, the skills that are so essential for empathy may not be acquired as naturally, as well or as quickly as in the past. In line with this prediction, a recent study from Michigan University of 14,000 college students has reported a decline in empathy over the past 30 years, which was particularly marked over the past decade.

Such data in themselves do not, of course, prove a causal link, but just as with smoking and cancer some 50 years ago, epidemiologists could investigate any possible connection. Similarly, the factors should be explored that account for the appeal of the cyberworld for those with already recognised impairments in empathy, typifying autistic spectrum disorders. What about exploring other coincidental trends for a causal link, such as the obsession with the solipsistic read-out of unremarkable moment-by-moment daily routines, for example through Twitter? The psychologist Sherry Turkle, from MIT, has argued persuasively in her recent book Alone Together that the more continuously connected people are in cyberspace, paradoxically the more isolated they actually feel. More worrying still is the tendency to define oneself by the amount of attention garnered online, particularly when excessive bullying, spitefulness and plain cruelty are used to enhance such attention, as with the pernicious trend of “trolling”. Might these phenomena, based as they are on the reassurance of incessant feedback, indicate a less robust sense of identity?

Secondly, on video games, I declare an interest as a patron of the charity Safermedia, and mention that I recently met representatives from the industry who are very keen to discuss the best way forward in the light of growing concerns. For example, neuropsychological studies suggest that frequent and continued playing might lead to enhanced recklessness. Perhaps this is not surprising as it is surely a dangerous lesson to learn that actions do not have consequences and that victims of a shooting can become “undead” the next time around. In addition, data indicate reduced attention spans and even possible addiction. In line with this, significant chemical and even structural changes are being reported in the brains of obsessional gamers that require at the very least wider discussion beyond the scientific community.

No single paper is ever likely to be accepted unanimously as conclusive, but a survey of 136 reports using 381 independent tests and conducted on more than 130,000 participants concluded that video games led to significant increases in desensitisation, physiological arousal, aggression and a decrease in prosocial behaviour. Needless to say this “meta-analysis” has itself been criticised, but then such is the iterative nature of evaluating research. This is neither the time nor place for an exhaustive review of the literature, but there should be a means for all these burgeoning scientific findings to be translated on a rolling basis into simple, jargon-free summaries which the non-specialist can readily access, evaluate, and, most importantly, question.

Thirdly, on search engines, can the internet actually improve cognitive skills and learning, as has been argued? The problem here is that efficient information processing is not synonymous with knowledge or understanding—a point well argued and supported by empirical evidence and summarised in, for example, Nicholas Carr’s book The Shallows. Even the chairman of Google, Eric Schmidt, has claimed:

“I worry that the level of interrupt, the sort of overwhelming rapidity of information—and especially of stressful information—is in fact affecting cognition. It is in fact affecting deeper thinking. I still believe that sitting down and reading a book is the best way to really learn something. And I worry that we’re losing that”.

We need to understand much more about the impact of search engines on comprehension skills. I suggest that the difference between processing and isolated fact, and understanding it, is the ability to place that fact into a wider conceptual framework that indeed gives it a meaning. Hence, the famous line from “Macbeth”—“Out, out, brief candle”—is powerful, not because of the literal image of a flickering flame but because the extinction of that flame can be linked to the extinction of life.

Conceptual frameworks can also have a time dimension: hence the meaning of an object or a person can be derived from how that object or person has connected to events and relationships in the past. This is why perhaps the characters in novels are compellingly meaningful in a way that an icon in a computer game is not. When you play a game to rescue the princess, you probably do not care much about her as a person.

Given the plasticity of the human brain, it is not surprising that adaption to a cyberenvironment will also lead to various positives—for example, enhanced performance in a variety of skills that are continuously rehearsed, such as a mental agility similar to that needed in IQ tests or in visuo-motor co-ordination. However, we need urgently to gain a much fuller picture.

I agree that the UK Council for Child Internet Safety—UKCCIS—already brings together more than 170 organisations and individuals from diverse sectors to keep children and young people safe online. However, much more is surely needed than minimising the threats. The time has come to start to maximise the opportunities. Whether it be through UKICCIS or some other co-ordinating organisation, or even a new mind-change initiative, I urge the commissioning of epidemiological studies exploring the significance of various societal and medical trends in relation to a screen-based lifestyle, as well as ring-fencing funds for basic brain research into, for example, the neural mechanisms of addiction and attention, the long-term effects of various screen-based activities on brain structure and function, and the neural processes perhaps underlying deep understanding and creative insight.

The design of truly innovative software that attempted to offset some of the perceived or agreed deficiencies arising from the current digital culture would also be enormously valuable. Most immediately we need more detailed profiles and breakdowns of computer use in the UK, along with surveys of the views and insights of various relevant sectors such as parents, teachers and employers, who until now have had no voice. Then finally, in the light of all this input, this hypothetical body would make recommendations for proactively planning the most effective environment. It might well include a root and branch, paradigm-shifting re-examination of education and subsequent training that best equips the citizen of the 21st century to be personally fulfilled and useful to society.

Currently, we are in an economic crisis, but this would be massively helped by innovative wealth creation, new types of jobs, new and more varied types of training for the growing numbers of unemployed school-leavers and possibilities other than a conventional university education whereby only one in 80 graduates can obtain an appropriate job.

Science and technology are transforming society. We have an extended life span and extended leisure time. Could not baby boomers who currently feel undervalued but have precious entrepreneurial and interpersonal skills be teamed up with the younger generations who are so adept at cutting-edge digital technologies, so that they could develop and commercialise unprecedented goods and services that neither group could conceive or produce unilaterally? Such a scheme could be brokered by the Government and funded by the companies currently dealing only with student loans—along with investment from the private sector. These ventures would be based on a comprehensive appreciation of not just how the future consumer will think and feel but on innovative ways for bringing real added value to them.

Like climate change, this transformational scenario of mind change is complex, unprecedented and controversial. However, unlike climate change, the end point is not one of just damage limitation but rather of ensuring that we deliver to the next generation an environment that can for the first time enable the realisation en masse of each individual’s full potential.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I gently remind all noble Lords that this debate is time-limited and that Back-Bench contributions should be limited to five minutes.

Violence against Women and Girls

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they will take to reduce the level of violence against women and girls in the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, the Government’s action plan on tackling violence against women and girls was published on 8 March 2011 and we have already delivered in several areas. We have provided over £28 million of stable Home Office funding until 2015 for local specialist services and £900,000 until 2015 to support national domestic violence helplines. We are also providing Ministry of Justice funding of £10.5 million over three years for local rape support centres, and £18.5 million to support vulnerable victims and witnesses.

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her positive reply. Does she agree that it is a national disgrace that in the United Kingdom one woman is raped every nine minutes, two women are killed by their partner or ex-partner every week, and up to 3 million women suffer some form of violence every year? Does she further agree that prevention is the key in order to reduce such violence? Will she have talks with every government department so that we could have a long-term, well funded education campaign involving schools, churches, the wider community and all strands of government, including the devolved governments, to ensure that boys and men are taught to respect girls and women? We should aim to send out a very strong message that violence against women is totally unacceptable.

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Baroness raises some very important issues. The Government have taken it upon themselves to make this a cross-government issue. We are working across all departments to ensure that, wherever possible, the impact of any effect on women and girls is taken into consideration when developing policies.

The noble Baroness is of course aware that through the Department for Education we are working with schools on campaigns to raise awareness of young people in particular to challenge the acceptability of violence in teenage relationships. Through the PSHE review, we will be looking at how best we can ensure that young people know about their own requirements with regard to consent within sexual relationships, so a lot is going on. I know that the noble Baroness is concerned, but I want to reassure her that the Government are doing a lot towards the issue.

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, will the Minister recognise that this is a matter not only of depressing statistics—disastrous as they are—but of culture and education and of involving men just as much as women? In that context, will she consider taking a leaf out of the practice of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, and I both have the privilege of serving, where parliamentarians of all countries and genders are prepared to make a public commitment against these practices, or even borrow the practice of some national Parliaments where a specialist committee of men is set up to involve themselves in actively dealing with this sort of issue?

[Baroness Verma]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Of course, it is about ensuring that men and women will be part of the solution to this culture change. I will take back what my noble friend said about the convention in Europe, but a lot of work is going on in this country where men are at the forefront of trying to ensure that we tackle the vile problem that we have in society. We will never be able to solve the problem unless both men and women are signed up to it.

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

Will the Minister indicate what support and advice have been given to local and other relevant authorities to provide positive programmes to support children who have experienced domestic violence? I ask the question particularly in the light of the report that came out this week published by Refuge and the NSPCC that showed that there were enormous gaps in that service.

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Baroness raises an important point. I have also read the report. I reassure the noble Baroness, and noble Lords in the House, that we take these issues very seriously, which is why we are working closely with the Department for Education. We also want to ensure that those who provide front-line services, who are there to recognise violence or sexual abuse when they happen, have the guidelines and information to hand.

[The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds]

My Lords, following that question, and in view of the predominance of violence by young men during the riots of the past summer, will the Minister comment on the need to protect boys from violence so that they do not grow up in a culture where violence becomes endemic? Does she agree that violence of any sort against children is wrong?

[Baroness Verma]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right. Of course, while we are concentrating on violence against women and girls today because of the international day tomorrow, it is right that we tackle all forms of violence, and I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Newlove for the work that she is carrying out. We take these things incredibly seriously. By working collectively across government, we will ensure that we can respond in a more proactive way than has been done before.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, while appreciating the seriousness with which the Government regard this issue, does the Minister agree that the best service that the Government could give to battered women is to amend the provisions in the legal aid legislation now before this House, which creates massive obstacles before legal aid can be granted in domestic violence cases? Does she agree that there is an irony that, in fact, the standard of proof required to get legal aid in the first place is often higher than that required to succeed in a civil court?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, the noble Lord of course knows that when the legal aid Bill comes before us, we will have some in-depth responses. I will leave it to that debate before answering.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, does the Minister share my concern about something of a “canteen culture” which persists among junior police officers, who are often the first point of contact for an abused woman? Does she share my concern about the need for training of junior officers in domestic violence issues, so that the good work done by ACPO and the Home Office filters down?

[Baroness Verma]

My noble friend is absolutely right. That is why we are working very hard with police forces across the country to ensure that they are made fully aware of how they need to respond, very sensitively, to issues of sexual and violent abuse.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, 76 per cent of ex-partner murders have stalking as a lead-up to the event. Does the Minister agree that actions must be taken now to stop this murder in slow motion? Would the noble Baroness further agree that, while county councils are clearly having to make cuts too deep and too fast, they absolutely should not make cuts to street lighting because of the serious implications for women and their safety?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, very briefly, I inform the noble Baroness that we last week launched a 12-week consultation on stalking to see if it will become a specific offence. A lot is going on, but I will of course write to the noble Baroness on the other issues that she has raised.

Charities Bill [HL]

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Verma]

Clause 2, page 2, line 12, at end insert “
“(4) This section is subject to section 11 (which makes special provision for Chapter 2 of this Part onwards).”

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I hope to be able to keep my contribution relatively short. I will give a brief explanation of the drafting amendment that we have put down. I will also mention the review of the Charities Act 2006, which will include consideration of the substantive issue that lies behind this amendment.

The amendment responds to the point that was raised in Committee by my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury. As the law stands, there are two subtly different definitions of charitable purpose that are used in different contexts. The definition of charitable purpose in Clause 2 is a definition which applies generally; that is, in legislation generally and in documents such as trust deeds, and in England and Wales as well as, for certain purposes, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The definition of charitable purpose in Clause 11 has a much more limited application. It applies only in England and Wales and only to provisions derived from the Charities Act 1993.

The initial suggestion of my noble friend Lord Phillips was that the two definitions should be combined into one. This was not an option, however, as the rules for consolidation Bills constrain the drafter from making any changes that would alter the meaning of the current law, so both definitions of charitable purpose had to be consolidated into the Charities Bill.

The remaining concern of my noble friend Lord Phillips was that a reader of the legislation could miss the fact that there are two subtly different definitions of charitable purpose that apply in different contexts. He suggested certain drafting amendments to address this point. The amendment we have put down deals with the issue more simply by placing a flag at the end of Clause 2 to alert the reader to the existence of the separate definition of charitable purpose in Clause 11. As I said during Committee stage, we recognise that there is a more fundamental point that ought to be considered; namely, whether it is possible to have one definition of charitable purpose rather than the two that exist in the current law. Although we could not consider such a change in this Bill, I do undertake for it to be included in the review of the Charities Act 2006.

My noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts has been appointed to undertake the review of the Charities Act 2006. He has recently chaired the red tape task force, the sensible and practical recommendations of which have been widely welcomed by the charity sector. Also, as an opposition Front-Bench spokesperson during the previous Administration, he led on the Companies Act 2006 and the Charities Act 2006. His significant experience makes him ideally suited to lead this review and I am sure that your Lordships will join me in welcoming his appointment.

The aims of the review will be twofold: to report on the operation and effectiveness of the provisions of the Charities Act 2006; and to consider whether further changes could be made to improve the legal and regulatory framework for charities. The terms of reference are broadly drawn to reflect these aims. I have placed a copy of the terms of reference in the House Library and they are available on the Cabinet Office website. The review is expected to report before Summer Recess in 2012 and a copy of the report will be laid in Parliament.

My noble friend Lord Hodgson has confirmed that he will consider the concern of my noble friend Lord Phillips about the two definitions of charitable purpose as part of his review. In the mean time, although this amendment will not resolve the underlying problem, it will ensure that readers of the legislation are aware that there are two definitions of charitable purpose. As such it is helpful. I beg to move.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I am grateful for what my noble friend the Minister said in respect of the amendment in her name. I can only concur with and applaud it, because, in my view, the Bill as drafted, given the limitations of consolidation statute, was none the less a big elephant trap for any non-charity lawyer who waded into the same, not realising that the definition in Clause 2 was subtly but significantly different from the definition in Clause 11 of the same phrase. It may seem odd for a charity lawyer to have, as a near-passion, the wish to try and keep charity law as simple, direct and plain as possible; but that has always been my position. It was during the course of the Charities Bill in 2006, when I led for these Benches, and remains an abiding passion in an age that seems to get more and more complicated and trammelled by regulation and so on. Therefore, I am glad at least that we have got this in the Bill. I perfectly understand the limitations of these consolidation statutes and therefore cannot complain that something more has not been done. I am grateful that it will be on the agenda of my noble friend Lord Hodgson; whom I congratulate, if that is the right word, on being appointed to undertake this review. I am glad that I was the author of this review clause in the 2006 Act. The noble Lord can blame me.

Violence Against Women

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I join all noble Lords in thanking my noble friend for opening this important short debate. I also thank all noble Lords who have participated. The wealth and quality of contributions demonstrates that ending violence against women and girls is an issue which resonates with us all. We must continue to work together with the voluntary sector, the police, local authorities and others to turn that vision into a reality. I hope that I will be able to answer some of the questions through my contribution and, of course, I will gather up towards the end what I feel I have missed out.

The Government take the issue of domestic violence very seriously. We believe that no woman should have to live in fear. No one should think that it is acceptable to be violent. No child should ever grow up in a home where violence is an everyday occurrence. As has been said, one in four women in the UK has been affected by domestic violence. According to a UN report, at least one in three women globally says that she has been beaten or sexually abused in her lifetime.

The Government are developing a number of events to support and promote this year’s International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. This will be an opportunity both to mark what has already been achieved and to build a profile of the existing and emerging work that we are trying to carry out to tackle what is often a hidden issue. This is all part of ongoing work. As noble Lords are aware, on 25 November last year, the Government published Call to End Violence against Women and Girls, which outlined four guiding principles: first, to prevent violence happening in the first place by challenging the attitudes and behaviours that foster it and to intervene early where possible to prevent it; secondly, to provide adequate levels of support where violence occurs; thirdly, to work in partnership to obtain the best outcome for victims and their families; and fourthly, to take action to reduce the risk to women and girls who are victims of these crimes and to ensure that the perpetrators are brought to justice.

A detailed range of supporting actions was published on 8 March this year. We have protected more than £28 million of Home Office funding until 2015 for specialist services to tackle violence against women and girls. This funding is going to support independent domestic violence advisers, independent sexual violence advisers and multiagency risk assessment conference co-ordinators, posts which are vital to support victims of domestic and sexual violence and abuse. Other vital services are also being funded, such as £900,000 of Home Office funding per year for providing support to national helplines, including the stalking helpline. This funding is in addition to the Ministry of Justice funding of up to £3.5 million per year for up to three years to rape crisis centres. Last week, the Home Secretary announced a £1.2 million programme over the next three years for services to support girls under 18 suffering rape and sexual abuse.

The Home Office is also running a media campaign to challenge attitudes among some teenage boys and girls and to send out a clear message that any abuse in relationships is unacceptable. Central government funding is one aspect, but we know that many organisations also rely on funding from local authorities. Local authorities also have to make some tough spending decisions, but we made sure that protecting vulnerable people, including victims of domestic violence, was a priority in the spending review. The Supporting People programme will give local authorities 99p this year for every £1 they had last year, so we take the view that there is no excuse for making cuts to these essential services.

We are working to change attitudes towards women. Earlier this month, we launched a campaign on social media and online channels to help stop teenagers becoming victims or perpetrators of abuse. The campaign shows that abuse is unacceptable, helps young people to recognise abusive behaviour and aims to empower them to challenge that behaviour. We are also providing training for professionals and front-line staff in areas such as the NHS to spot the early warning signs of and risk factors for domestic and sexual violence.

We are also piloting new powers for the police with domestic violence protection orders in three police force areas: Greater Manchester, West Mercia and Wiltshire. DVPs prevent the perpetrator returning to a residence or having contact with a victim for up to 28 days, for example, which gives the victim immediate protection and allows her breathing space to consider her options. We have directed that local areas and agencies should undertake a domestic homicide review after every domestic violent death to make sure that the right lessons are learnt to help stop future homicides and violence. The Government want constantly to look at new ways of protecting victims and preventing tragic incidents happening. That is why we recently published a consultation on a domestic violence disclosure scheme to seek views on whether to introduce a scheme for disclosing information about an individual’s history of domestic violence to a new partner.

We are very clear that our obligations to help women who are being abused do not stop at our borders so, for the first time, our strategy to tackle violence against women and girls also includes the innovative work we are doing internationally on this global problem. In addition to contributing £10 million of core funding to UN Women and £3.2 million to its women, peace and security programme, DfID’s business plan for 2011-15 now identifies violence against women and girls as a priority and commits DfID to pilot new approaches to prevent it. The UK national action plan commits DfID to helping 10 million women access justice through the courts, the police and legal assistance. As many as 25 DfID country officers are now pushing forward with integrating violence against women and girls programmes into their operational plans. These include interventions designed to respond to violence once it has happened as well as programmes designed to prevent violence through long-term attitude and behavioural change.

For example, in Somalia DfID is funding training for police officers and legal officials in dealing with sexual violence cases, as well as funding sexual assault referral centres which enable women to access free medical care, counselling and legal advice. Through the Social Inclusion Research Fund in Nepal, DfID has also funded a wide range of work tackling violence against women and girls, including a one-year action research project on sexual violence in schools. Lynne Featherstone MP, the Home Office Minister with responsibility for equality, visited Nepal from 12 to 15 June this year, partly because of these efforts to address widespread violations of women’s rights. The Minister met a broad range of people, including the former Prime Minister, Madhav Kumar Nepal. Two weeks ago I met the Italian Minister for Women and Equality. We had an incredibly constructive meeting, and the Minister also met the Home Secretary. We found that we are all committed to ensuring that we recognise our shared commonalities in wanting to tackle this very serious issue. I am glad that our European partners are working closely with what we are doing so that we have a consistent approach on how to tackle this really despicable form of violence. The UK is responding to the urgent need to reduce the impact of conflict on women and girls and to tackle sexual violence in conflict through its national action plan on UN Security Council Resolution 1325 on Women, Peace and Security.

Before I conclude, I will respond to some of the points raised by noble Lords. My noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece asked about the Council of Europe convention on domestic violence. The Government are strongly committed to combating violence against women and promoting women’s rights more broadly. The Home Secretary has commissioned a cross-Whitehall consultation and has identified that legislative reform in various complex policy areas will be necessary if the UK is to sign and ratify the convention. However, I reassure my noble friend and other noble Lords that the Home Office is continuing to work robustly with interested government departments to identify obstacles in the way of signature and ratification so that they can be addressed. My noble friend Lord Boswell was absolutely right to say that we take these issues very seriously, so we want to make sure that what we are signing up to will deliver exactly what it says on the can. We are working hard with our partners, but I reassure my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece because I know she feels passionate about this, that we are making sure that when we sign up we will have something that we can deliver on.

My noble friend also mentioned Afghanistan, and I know that she and I share a common theme on this. The incident she mentioned was despicable and has to be openly condemned, but I assure her that our work in Afghanistan is quite robust and productive. Through our multi-donor Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund, which helps to pay the salaries of civil servants, we have been able to pay 48,000 women teachers. That has aided 2 million girls to get to school. We know that progress looks as if it is slow, but at least it is in the right direction. I suspect that pressure from the UK and other partners will ensure that that progress continues.

I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Howells of St Davids—I call her my noble friend because I think she is—on her eloquent and thoughtful contribution. She set out graphically exactly what the problems are. We all recognise that there has to be a culture change and an attitudinal change. Like her, I believe that this is not about party-political point-scoring, but about us working collectively to ensure that we make progress on this issue. I hope that she will be reassured by my own contribution that the Government are taking some very serious steps towards those changes.

Of course I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, that women absolutely have to feel safe. They have to be confident that we as a Government are taking account of this issue. We have no control over the global economic condition, and she knows that we have to work against the backdrop of our own national deficit that needs to be addressed. But that does not mean that we will cut back on making sure that vulnerable people—women suffering from domestic violence—are protected. We take these issues seriously and, as I have said, we have dedicated resource funding for particular funding for particular projects to ensure that women will be protected and will have recourse.

The noble Baroness asked whether the definition of domestic violence has been changed. I can reassure her that it has not. Women will still have recourse to legal aid if they are the victims of domestic violence. We will have a long and full debate on the legal aid Bill so I do not want to take up my time discussing that here, although I am sure that we will have plenty to say to each other in the Chamber on that one.

The noble Baroness also asked about stalking. Yesterday my honourable friend Lynne Featherstone launched in Manchester a consultation on stalking. We take this issue very seriously.

I have gone over my time. If there is anything that I have not mentioned or have not responded to, I undertake to write to noble Lords. I thank my noble friend for tabling this Question because it is a very important subject.

Children: Secure Children’s Homes

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I remind all noble Lords that Back-Bench contributions are five minutes long. When the clock shows five, time is up.

Education Bill

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with this amendment. However, one issue in particular concerns me: the fact that not only degree courses but access courses are subject to loans.

As members of the Committee will know, those who have not gone through the normal route of taking GCSEs and A-levels and entering university by that route, but instead apply to university later, often take courses which are regarded as being the equivalent of A-levels—they are called access courses—at colleges for education. These are normally two-year courses. Many of these students initially do GCSE courses and go on to an access course, so they often have between two and three years at the college of further education. Because these are level 3 courses, and because the people concerned are often over the age of 24, these are regarded as loan courses, and consequently many people will have five years of loans rather than three. Since, almost by definition, most of these people come from disadvantaged backgrounds, the whole problem of debt aversion is one of some difficulty. I am particularly concerned about the build-up of debt in these circumstances.

The accumulation of debt from having to take on debt to put themselves through access courses, and then more debt on top of that to do degree courses, is going to be a major disincentive to using this route to those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Considerable numbers use this route at present. Could the Government look at this? It would be good to have some good news. I know that my right honourable friend Simon Hughes, when he was looking at the issue of access, picked this up, but I do not think anything has yet been done about it.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I would like to respond to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Young, and also, I hope, reassure other noble Lords that the Government are committed to supporting protected groups. I can assure noble Lords that before we undertake any reforms we carefully consider the impact on protected groups. Our reforms to higher education funding and student finance are no exception. Work undertaken as part of our impact and equalities impact assessments, published in November 2010, and the Government’s skills strategy indicated that changes to funding priorities were unlikely to have a negative impact on protected groups, including disabled people and women. We will continue to monitor the impact of our reforms as we move to implementation.

We want to do more to encourage protected groups to participate fully in higher education. The provision for the first time of loans to eligible part-time students to cover the full cost of their tuition will provide a more viable route into higher education for anyone who does not wish to follow the more traditional full-time route. This should provide more opportunities to work alongside higher education; for example, to maintain caring or other responsibilities. We will also continue to provide dedicated support to help disabled students participate and succeed in higher education. The Government provide funding to HE institutions, through the Higher Education Funding Council for England, to help them recruit and support disabled students; £13 million is being provided for 2011-12.

The Government are also providing a comprehensive package of financial support directly to students, with additional support targeted at those who, through a range of circumstances, need it most. Eligible disabled students studying in higher education are able to access the disabled students’ allowance to enable them to study on an equal basis with their non-disabled counterparts. DSAs are available to both full-time and part-time students. They are paid in addition to the existing standard student support package and are not means-tested and therefore will not need to be repaid.

The Government also make additional support available to eligible full-time students with adult or child dependants. The adult dependants grant, the childcare grant and the parents’ learning allowance are non-repayable. They are means-tested, so that those on the lowest incomes benefit most.

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Young, and other noble Lords are reassured that the Government have already made an assessment of the impact of tuition fees and I would therefore urge him to withdraw his amendment. To answer the questions of my noble friend Lady Sharp about access courses, I will have to take them away and write to her in detail about what we propose, so I do hope that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, what specific support is given to lone parents? They may, perhaps, be in the situation that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, spoke of. She spoke of childcare support. Can the Minister provide more detail about what incentives are provided to lone parents to engage in education of this kind? I am sure that it must seem also to the noble Baroness that it is extremely important to encourage such people into education.

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raises a really important point and I hope that he will allow me to write to him in greater detail with that response.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I welcome the reassurances that we have received from the noble Baroness, Lady Verma. I trust that she will circulate to everybody details about the points that have been raised about access courses and the lone parent scenarios. I think that we will study the detail in Hansard in order to assure ourselves that there has been a full assessment of the impact. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, as many people round the Table will know, I opposed the imposition of student fees and student loans even when the Opposition were in power. I continue to have considerable reservations about the system that they introduced in terms of student financing.

I have three points to make in relation to the debate. One is to pick up the point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. Given that the Government have shown that on the whole they prefer the CPI to the RPI in relation to welfare upgrading and pensions, it would seem obvious that they should use the CPI on this occasion rather than the RPI, which tends to be rather higher than the CPI anyhow.

Secondly, I continue to worry about the cost. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, mentioned, something like 60 per cent of students are never going to be able to repay their loans and therefore will have the debt hanging around them for a considerable period of time.

The consequence is that the real cost of these loans is enormous. The Government are making loans. The Government say, rightly, that they are putting a lot of money into this because they are putting the loans forward, and they have to provide the loans in the first place. If something like 50 per cent or 60 per cent of students never repay them, the cost of providing those loans is probably at least as great as the £3 billion that they have taken out of the higher education budget.

The only advantage is that it is off the books, because the Student Loans Company is not regarded as part of the national debt. It does not come back onto the books until 30 years hence. This is one of the issues that I disagree with the Government on, because I feel we are putting a disproportionate amount of debt on the current generation. They have to repay their debt at a rate of 9 per cent. Those who earn only between £20,000 and £30,000 will be repaying that debt for 30 years at 9 per cent. There will be a 9 per cent surcharge on income tax unless, of course, you have parents who are well off enough to be able to pay it off in the first place. Again, the disadvantaged are the people who do not benefit. It comes back on to the books in 30 years’ time so the Government will then have to pay extra interest on the national debt. I said this when we talked about these regulations and I say it again. It means that it is a very expensive system for the Government.

I have a specific point that I ask the Minister to respond on. There is concern about what happens if the Government succeed in selling this debt on. The aim of the coalition Government, as much as the aim of the Labour Government, is that the student loans debt should be regarded as an asset by the Government and packaged up and sold on. Under the Bill as we put it through originally, if the debt were sold on, those who took it on were not allowed to vary the rate of interest on the debt. Does it still apply that anyone who buys the debt and carries it on will have to maintain the same rate of interest as the Government were charging?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I understand noble Lords’ desire to ensure parity between the rate of interest charged to students and that which is borne by the Government. However, I would be reluctant to introduce the stringent cut suggested by the noble Lord.

Let me first respond to why RPI and not CPI. We have always taken the view that there is no single measure of inflation that is appropriate for all purposes, but the RPI is commonly used in private contracts for uprating of living costs, payments and housing rents, so it is more appropriate than CPI for student loan interest as it takes account of, among other things, changes in mortgage interest and council tax—typical expenses for graduates that are not included in the calculation of the CPI.

Historically, RPI has always been used for calculating interest on student loans. This means that over a period of years the rate of interest on student loans has been consistently applied on a widely recognised and adopted measure of inflation.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am getting very confused. Why is it that RPI is appropriate for repayment of student loans but CPI is appropriate for increases in pensions for retired people? Could the Minister explain that? I do not quite understand, from her explanation, why there are differences between the two.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, the costs for older people are different. It has always been the case that most measures have been taken under RPI. If the noble Lord is not satisfied, I am quite happy to meet him outside the Chamber to further the discussion, but I think I can offer him this one response only. If he is not satisfied, I am quite happy to take the question outside the Chamber with other noble Lords. We can discuss it in further detail and, hopefully, come back with a more detailed response. I do not think I can offer the noble Lord anything other than what I have just offered him: that it is normally the case that it is measured by RPI.

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[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

Before the Minister stands up, perhaps I could try to be helpful. This is a key question. My understanding is that the only circumstance in which RPI is lower than CPI is when mortgage interest rates are falling and that is relatively unusual, although we have experienced a bit of that recently.

When the Chancellor made his announcement about making the shift from Rossi to CPI, he was honest enough to say that it was to save money—it would save £6 billion to the Exchequer. Would it not be easier for the Minister to have the same sort of honesty as her right honourable friend in the Government and say, “It’s to save money”?

[Baroness Verma]

I remind the noble Lord, as he was in Government, that they also used RPI as a measure. It is a commonly used measure. My right honourable friend the Chancellor, of course, is the Chancellor, and has to find all means of reducing the debt that unfortunately we inherited from noble Lords opposite.

We should remember that the changes to the rate of interest on student loans are part of a new student finance package that creates a progressive repayment system and is designed to protect lower earning graduates, as well as balancing the financial demands of universities with the interests of students and future graduates by delivering necessary savings without cutting the quality of higher education or student numbers.

Under the new system, students from lower income households will receive more support than they do now—I hope that that satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—although many will pay back for longer than they do now. Their monthly repayments will be less than now, and the variable interest rate we propose will mean that they will also pay back less overall. If we accepted this amendment and capped the rate of interest that we could charge on student loans, we simply could not deliver this new system, nor would it create a suitable or worthy alternative. A cap would have little or no positive effect on borrowers who did not repay in full, nor would it afford greater financial protection.

This amendment would mean that higher earners would be charged a lower rate of interest than under the Government’s proposals. Higher earners would therefore benefit the most from this amendment, since the interest rate that they are now charged would reduce typically from RPI plus 3 per cent to RPI plus 2.2 per cent, while lower earners would not benefit at all as their interest rate would already be less than the Government’s cost of borrowing.

The system of student support would be much less progressive as a result. The Government remain committed to delivering a progressive system whereby those who benefit the most from higher education contribute the most. Would the noble Lord really favour a package that meant that the highest earners did not contribute to the cost of their higher education in net terms, or one that would inhibit our ability to protect lower earners?

[Lord Peston]

What the noble Baroness has said is not quite right. Is it not the case that those very much higher earners whose parents pay off the loan immediately will not bear a higher cost? It is only those whose parents have not paid off the loan immediately who will do so.

Equally, while I am on my feet, I say to the Minister that there is no ideal index number at all. I do not use either of those—I always use the GDP deflator as the correct measure of inflation—but that is another matter; it is not what this debate is about. It is not about an ideal index number, it is about who pays what, and that is all it is about. My noble friends, particularly the noble Lord and I, have made it very clear: all that we are discussing is, who are we going to take the money from? Am I right that the plus 3 per cent is definitely decided?

[Baroness Verma]

Yes. And the noble Lord knows that I would be the last person here to make sure that people of low incomes could not get fair access. That is why it is so important that those who can afford to pay more do so, because they benefit more from higher education. Those families on low incomes will actually be able to be better protected. That is the key to this.

I am sorry that the noble Lord shakes his head. There will never be an ideal measure, but we have to have a measure. The previous Government did it and we are carrying on doing it. Anything to do with higher education will be coming up in the higher education White Paper, which we are consulting on at the moment, and of course that will be a wonderful opportunity to get the sort of questions posed by the noble Lord asked and responded to.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It would help us to understand it better if the Minister could reply to the question put by my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara about the threshold. Is his calculation right, that the payment would begin at about £15,000, which I think my noble friend said? If that is the case then that is at a very low level of income, and it would be very interesting to know what the Government calculate the threshold income to be.

[Baroness Verma]

I should like the noble Lord to allow me to make a little progress, but it is £21,000 and not £15,000. It is higher—if the noble Lord will allow me—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Verma]

If the noble Lord will allow me to continue, I am hoping that I will be able to respond to the questions that he has raised.

The system of student support would be much less progressive as a result of the noble Lord’s amendment. The Government remain committed to delivering a progressive system whereby those who benefit most from higher education contribute the most. With regard to imposing the cap, the noble Lord asked if the current £15,000 threshold would have risen in 2016 compared with the £21,000 threshold proposed by the Government. Of course he knows that the previous Government did not raise the threshold annually, which is why we are proposing from 2016-17, as part of the progressive system, that it be introduced.

The noble Lord, Lord Peston, asked about the impact on women. It is important to consider the package in the round. The amount that borrowers repay in a year is strictly linked to income. Borrowers whose income drops below the threshold, for example, when moving to part-time work or seeking downgrade posts at the end of their career, or who leave employment for whatever reason, will be protected because their repayments will cease immediately.

[Lord Peston]

But they will still owe the money.

[Baroness Verma]

But the repayments are written off after 30 years.

My noble friend Lady Sharp asked about the sale of student loans. The student loans Act makes clear that the borrower will not be affected by the sale. Their loans will be subject to the same terms as those that remain unsold. Nothing in the Bill changes that position.

I would like to finish on Sharia law. In relation to issues around Sharia compliance, the noble Lord mentioned the meeting between the Minister for Universities and Science, my honourable friend David Willetts, the Federation of Student Islamic Societies—a body that represents students from the Muslim faith—and the National Union of Students to discuss the issue. We accept the importance of the concerns raised by those organisations and have an ongoing dialogue to see how we can best ensure that student finance is not impacted on through the systems that we are bringing in. However, it would be better for me to write to the noble Lord on the outcomes after we have made sure that the consultations have been fully gone through.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

There is one point that the noble Baroness has not dealt with in relation to my noble friend Lord Stevenson’s introductory speech, which said that the Deputy Prime Minister—who we know is well versed in the issue of student fees—reckons that about 60 per cent of the loans will not be repaid. Is that an official statistic on behalf of the Government? Is that the estimate? Is that how much will not be repaid out of all of this expenditure?

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[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, it is not 60 per cent. The estimate is about 40 per cent.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

How can the Deputy Prime Minister get it so wrong? Has he got a different brief from the Minister?

[Baroness Verma]

No, the Deputy Prime Minister has not got it wrong; maybe the noble Lord has got it wrong. It is 40 per cent. This is why the threshold for repayment is being increased to £21,000 and why repayments will be taken at 9 per cent above that level. This, hopefully, will mean that individuals will repay less. There will be less opportunity for them not to pay their loans off because we have made it easier for them to repay their loans. The noble Lord makes faces. I am sorry that I am not satisfying him. But I think he will agree, when he reads Hansard tomorrow, that I am laying out a very clear, comprehensive way of making sure that we are protecting most those on the lowest incomes and giving them an easier way of repaying so that there will be less opportunity for them to default and hopefully more students, rather than fewer, repaying the loans that have been taken out.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

Before the Minister sits down, could she answer the question that I asked quite directly about whether it is a condition of being able to sell the Student Loans Company book that this arrangement around interest rates is applied?

[Baroness Verma]

I am sorry if the noble Lord did not hear my response. I thought I had answered his question, but I will answer it again. The Sale of Student Loans Act makes it clear that the borrower will not be affected by the sale. Their loans will be subject to the same terms as those that remain unsold.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

That is not the question. The question was: as part of the Government’s desire to be able to sell off the student loan book, is being able to shift to this more commercial arrangement around interest rates one of the conditions of being able to do so?

[Baroness Verma]

I suspect that my answer will not satisfy the noble Lord, because I am not satisfied with it either. However, I will read it out, then look at my civil servants to give me a better response at some point. Looking at the existing loan portfolio now, I do not think that we can give the response that the noble Lord wants.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

That has been interesting. A relatively small point at the end of a Bill that is about something else has revealed an interesting range of issues that we may have to come back to at Report. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Peston, Lord Sutherland, Lord Knight and Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, for their comments and for illuminating and extending some of my points. As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said, the purpose of discussions at this stage of a Bill is to discuss some of the underlying issues and principles and, if possible, get some illumination on the thinking behind the Government’s plans and understand better the consequences of what they are doing.

I am afraid we did not really get much illumination, and we tended towards the end to run into a sort of blame game. If it was not our fault for having been in Government when the first arrangements were made, it was our fault for not having supported what is currently proposed. Indeed, at one point I heard the Minister say that we should not be discussing this now but should wait for the Higher Education Bill soon to come into this House.

[Baroness Verma]

No, what I said was that there are issues coming up in the Higher Education White Paper that is under consultation. That is a good forum for concerns such as those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. That is the place where that would be discussed far more fruitfully than here today.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

We beg to differ on that. Actually, I agree on the essence—that a lot of what has been raised today needs to be discussed in a wider context. It is a great pity that we are not able to do that because of the strange way in which the Government have been developing policy in this area. We had an announcement about the funding system detached from the student loan system which is in this Bill. We had a White Paper at the very end of the previous Session but we do not yet know when the Bill that will follow is due, and we are therefore not able to tie all these things together. That is the point I was trying to make.

I do not think we disagree in principle on what any Government would have to do in these situations. We want to fund our universities to the best level possible and we accept the principle that those who benefit from that should contribute to it. The problem is that I do not think the system that is coming out is the right one. The noble Lords, Lord Foulkes and Lord Knight, put a fairly precise finger on the first of my questions, about the difference between RPI and CPI, and I am afraid that I did not think that the answer that the Government came up with was at all credible. We will need to return to this on Report.

On the social inclusion points, I heard the Minister and I admire her aspirations. However, I think that there will be severe problems for women, particularly those in lower-paid occupations, and for mature students. Although I understand that negotiations are continuing about Sharia law compliance, I am worried about this and I hope it will be taken back and discussed seriously. If it turns out this is not a Sharia-compliant issue or is sufficiently close to problems that will cause the Government to reflect on it, we perhaps need an early decision; we are moving quite fast with this Bill and it would be difficult to change it later on, even this month.

On the question of why 3 per cent, I do not think that the Minister gave us much; 2.2 per cent from 3 per cent may not sound a lot but it would make a huge difference in terms of whether loans are keeping pace in value or are increasing in an overall race to the bottom.

On the question of the student loan sell-off, there is more to make of this, and we will need to return to it because I think it is driving some of the policy here. Unless we can get an absolutely clear answer on that, we will have to return to it. However, this is Committee and we have had a very good discussion so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, may I ask for an assurance from the Minister on a small detail? Many social work students will be studying part-time and if they are doing a degree-level qualification, that fee will be waived. It is very welcome that the Government are raising the threshold of entry into social work and it is now becoming more expected that students will have Level 3 qualifications, so I would appreciate a reassurance that they will not be charged when they are at further education college doing their Level 3 qualifications. It is a point of detail; maybe the Minister could write to me on that.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I would like to respond to the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and of my noble friends Lady Brinton and Lady Sharp, in turn. I know that many noble Lords, like me, welcome the extension of loans to eligible part-time students studying at publicly funded institutions to cover the full cost of their tuition. Upfront tuition costs were identified by Lord Browne in his independent review of higher education as the primary barrier to students who want to study on a part-time basis and we have removed that barrier.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson for introducing his amendment, which raised a debate in this Room about the extension of loans to part-time students. The introduction of caps on tuition charges for part-time courses is an important part of our higher education reform. It will enable the Government to provide, for the first time, loans to eligible part-time students to cover the full cost of their tuition at publicly funded institutions, just as it does for full-time students. The Government agree with the overarching principle of Lord Browne’s independent review that those who benefit most from higher education should make a larger contribution to its costs. This holds true for those who choose to study part-time as much as those who pursue it full-time.

The Government’s reforms mean that while the teaching grant for the Higher Education Funding Council for England is being reduced or stopped completely for some subjects, universities will have access to a steady income stream from subsidised tuition loans and will get the future of sustainable funding that they need. We would be reluctant to limit to £1,000 per year the amount that institutions can charge for part-time courses. Such a limit would pose a serious risk to the financial sustainability of the part-time sector, as it would restrict a now primary source of funding. This would place part-time students at a significant disadvantage to their full-time counterparts and I am sure that the noble Lord is not advocating that.

Amendment 148 seeks to ensure that the amount of interest that could be charged on loans for part-time students should not be higher than the rate charged for full-time students. My noble friends raise an important point and one with which I agree wholeheartedly. Part-time students should be treated in exactly the same way as full-time students in the way in which interest is applied to their loans. We have never intended that full-time and part-time students should be treated differently in this respect. I hope that the indicative regulation published when this clause was in the Commons will also reassure my noble friends on this point. The regulation showed that student loans will bear interest at RPI plus 3 per cent until the individual becomes liable to repay. From this point, we will introduce a progressive system whereby low earners—again, regardless of whether they studied full-time or part-time—will be protected and accrue interest only at the rate of inflation. Those with an income of £21,000 or less—below the repayment threshold—will not need to make any repayments and will accrue interest at RPI only, which will maintain the value of the loan in real terms. For anyone with income greater than this, the rate of interest applied will increase gradually with their income, reaching a maximum of RPI plus 3 per cent at an income of £41,000. Those with incomes of £41,000 or more will accrue interest at a rate of RPI plus 3 per cent.

I hope that that has reassured my noble friends on those points. As it is our intention to apply our proposals to both full-time and part-time students and the individual’s mode of study has no impact on how the rate is calculated, it is therefore unnecessary to set this out in primary legislation.

Moving to the second point in this amendment, I understand the concern about the date that part-time students become liable to repay, though it is important to remember that whether they will actually have to begin to repay will depend on their income. Under our current proposals, part-time students become due to repay on 6 April following the third anniversary of the start date of their course, even if they continue to study. We have chosen this date as an equivalent to the time when a full-time borrower studying a three-year degree course would reach their repayment date. However, it is important to remember that no one will have to repay if their income is below £21,000. The added benefit for those part-time students who have incomes less than £41,000 is that they will at this point see a reduction in the interest that they are charged. Once part-time students become liable to repay, their interest will be dependent on their income, whereas students who have not yet reached their statutory repayment due date will be charged interest at RPI plus three per cent.

I know that some higher education institutions feel that delaying the repayment point by a further year would benefit their students, particularly those studying the equivalent of a three-year course part time over four years. I can see that this might be the case at least for those part-time students earning more than £21,000. However, the converse would be true for many other part-time students, particularly those earning under £21,000. They would be charged a higher interest rate for a further year but would not be required to repay during that year. However, I have listened to the argument very closely and I think that it would be prudent of me to go back to my right honourable friend David Willetts and raise these points with him again and commit to writing to noble Lords about these concerns. This is a very valid point and one that we need to consider very seriously.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

On that particular point, the Minister has been very helpful. But I am not absolutely clear about whether she will go back to the Minister with a view to accepting this amendment. What I understood by the very eloquent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, was that the administrative scheme that has already been promulgated anticipates the legislation even though the legislation has not yet gone through this House, which is a very serious situation. There is no point in going back to David Willetts if this has already been decided by an administrative scheme.

[Baroness Verma]

I can reassure the noble Lord that it has not been set in stone. I have listened very carefully to the argument today. It is a very valid argument. It would be a great benefit to go back to my right honourable friend and raise with him genuine concerns. While I cannot commit to the exact amendment as it is, it is worthy of a revisit with my right honourable friend.

I would like to finish by responding to a couple of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, about the loans available to part-time students. I think I have covered it in my presentation. I will reiterate in case it has not been made clear. Part-time students will meet the amount charged subject to the passage of this clause. The introduction of regulations to cap fees at the level the noble Lord has indicated means that there may be institutions that do not choose to raise fee-charging to the maximum level. We are making an assumption that that is what is going to happen, but we must not because there may be institutions that do not follow that path. For equivalent and lower qualifications, my right honourable friend the Minister for Universities and Skills has in the past indicated his regret that loans cannot be offered for a second qualification.

I am sure that, when the noble Lord’s party was in Government, they also had the same regret. But, unfortunately, budgets are limited. We have to work within our means so that those who have not got a first-time qualification are given that opportunity. The noble Lord’s Government agreed with that principle; we are following it through. I hope that the noble Lord will be reassured—as my noble friends are—that we have taken this very seriously. I have promised to take away what my noble friend Lady Brinton has raised. We hope to come back to it on Report with some findings.

[Baroness Brinton]

Before the noble Baroness concludes, I thank her very much for the response and for taking the matter back to the Minister for Universities and Skills. We would be very grateful if we could participate in that meeting, particularly on the two technical points that I raised, that I said I did not need answers to today, because obviously it will take a lot of time to write back on them.

[Baroness Verma]

Absolutely, and I would encourage any other noble Lord who would wish to be at that meeting to indicate that they would like to be present, so that we can offer an invitation to whoever wishes to be there.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, me too. I would like to come to that. It would be fascinating. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes would be present in spirit even if his considerable bulk was not present in fact at the occasion. We will bear in mind his useful and helpful interjections during the debate on these two amendments.

[Baroness Verma]

He has indicated not.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Sharp, for their amendment, which has won the day. The speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, was indeed very eloquent, as has already been said. One point which I would like to finesse back to the Minister was that in considering the question of the timing for which loans should be available for part-time equivalent to full-time study for degrees, she also made the point—which I tried to make, but did not make it so well—that institutions have a long and distinguished history of setting good levels of fees for part-time courses. It is not clear at all to me why the Government feel they need to regulate.

The documentation I have seen suggests that there is a fear that if the new loan system comes in, institutions cannot be trusted to restrict the level of fee, when it comes down to it. Again, that might be worth waiting for, to see, and to have the power to intervene if necessary. As the Minister said, there may be a number of institutions who, for good and persuasive reasons, decide to cap fees much lower down the scale, in which case the figure of 75 per cent of £9,000 is otiose, and we should bear that in mind as we go forward.

I also thank the other speakers in this debate, because although mine was a probing amendment, I did want to raise the points that have been raised. I think they were picked up. I am delighted that the Minister has reassured the Committee about the equivalence of interest payments between full-time and part-time students; that is important. I am delighted that she is going to take back the arguments we made today, and I hope that at Report or earlier, we will be able to have some good news. On that basis I would like to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Which is the point I was about to make. The sheer serendipity of being able to do this does not make it right. Earlier points on other amendments, which were about the need of the whole country to work out how we pay for higher education, and to make sure that those who benefit from it also contribute back, do not get caught by this amendment. However, it may be worth further discussion, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says.

On Amendment 147A, as has already been said, this is presumably the first of a number of points to be discussed as we get more to the market that the students will be dominating in future places, because in order to do that they will need this sort of information. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, that this is a tad more difficult and complex than any standard university secretary would be able to respond to. However, it gets the right message across, which is that there is not very much information available for students to judge what sort of university they are going to. The courses are beyond their experience by their very definition, but as for the way in which they are taught and the amount of student contact, there is already enough circulating to make this an interesting area, which we will track with interest.

There has been a report in the papers today that comments from students that have been surveyed about what they thought about university courses in relation to fee levels of £9,000 were distinctly unflattering. If that is the way this is going, then this sort of amendment may well be something we need to discuss later.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, the recently published Higher Education White Paper places students at the very heart of the higher education system. Our goal is a system that offers students better information and opportunity, is more responsive to student choice and helps to improve social mobility. We will ensure funding follows the student, is progressive and fair, and better responds to their situation and choices.

The amendment of my noble friend, Amendment 146, seeks to allow home and EU students to opt out of their eligibility for student support. First, let me make it clear that there is no requirement for students who have already been offered a place in higher education to draw down their entitlement to student support. At the moment, we have to control student numbers overall because we must control the costs to the public purse.

This amendment would mean that students who could afford to pay up front the full cost of their courses would then be at an advantage because they could pay. In effect, it has bypassed our student number controls. On the face of it this may appear attractive, but there would be a strong perception that wealthier students or their families would be able to buy a university place.

The Prime Minister has made the Government’s position absolutely clear on this. University access is about the ability to learn and not the ability to pay. There is no question of people being able to buy their way into university, however attractive that proposal looks. The Government are interested in expanding employer or charity sponsored places outside the quota system and are committed to freeing up the controls on student numbers in general.

In the Higher Education White Paper, we have committed to increasing such opportunities, provided that they do not create a cost liability for Government and that they meet three key principles: there should be fair access for all students applying, regardless of their ability to pay; the places must be genuinely additional; and there must be no reduction in academic standards in recruitment. The Higher Education Funding Council for England is looking at options to incentivise more sponsorship and will include this in its consultation this winter. This is a sensitive issue and we will consider carefully the outcomes of both these consultations before introducing further changes to the system.

On Amendment 147, I absolutely agree with my noble friend Lord Lucas that students need accessible, accurate and reliable information that clearly shows what they expect from their courses, helping them to make informed choices. We are doing a great deal of work in this area. It is our intention that by September 2012 all higher education institutions will publish key information sets for each course on their website. These sets will provide the information that students request the most, together with information about course charges.

The White Paper encourages good practice in institutions to allow students to become more discerning in understanding how their tuition charge is spent. It recommends that institutions provide the sort of material that local councils offer their residents to demonstrate where council tax is being spent. We have therefore asked the Higher Education Public Information Steering Group to consider whether this sort of data should form part of the future wider set of information we ask institutions to provide for prospective students.

I hope that I have reassured noble Lords, but before I conclude I would like to respond to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland. He mentioned that students taking their second first degrees would be outside the student number controls and would be able to pay for their courses. He is correct, but the Government, like the previous one, is regulating students’ first degrees. I hope that answers the noble Lord.

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

May I just ask what the point of the regulation is? Is it to save money, because the students in question will not cover the full cost of the fees; or is it because the Government have a pre-set notion on, for example, how many vets we need and how many should be eligible to take a veterinary studies degree?

[Baroness Verma]

I think the bottom line is, of course, that it is all down to affordability. We need to be clear on that. Universities have a finite budget too.

I will not fall into the eloquent spider’s web of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I shall just say to him that Scotland has a devolved Administration and therefore sets its own agenda. Steering neatly away from that, I take this opportunity to thank all noble Lords for their contributions on this Bill today, given that this was my first outing in higher education. It has been quite a baptism, but I am hoping that when I come in on higher education matters in the future, I will be there from the beginning and will understand a little more clearly the temperaments of noble Lords.

This is the final group of amendments, but I understand very clearly that there will still be questions that remain outstanding. Therefore I am happy to meet noble Lords, be it after this meeting in Room 16 on the Principal Floor, or in future. I have very much an open-door approach to the way I do my business in the House.

I give this opportunity to all noble Lords to come and speak to us. We want to make sure that the legislation, when it goes from this House, is in its best form, and noble Lords are there to ensure that with me. The Welfare Reform Bill is about to commence, so on that note I will sit down and allow the noble Lord to withdraw.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that answer. To be disappointed by my noble friend, and encouraged by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is indeed unusual. I hope that we will have at least the second part of that again. I shall now take an interest in the Scotland Bill.

I am grateful for what my noble friend said on Amendment 147A. I will read it carefully and come back to her on that. Because there is so much past practice in this area, this is something we need to take carefully.

As for Amendment 146, I find this an odd position for us to be taking. There are an awful lot of people in this country who pay for education from the ages of five to 18, and indeed before that. To suddenly cut that off at 18, as if it was in some way dirty, seems to me to be odd. If we are conducting things so that we are not displacing poorer children from the education they might otherwise receive, but are increasing the amount of money which is available to the institutions which are educating those poorer children, then that seems to me to be a sensible and constructive way to go.

I do not know how my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s dictum should be applied to his alma mater, but perhaps one day I will be able to listen to him on that. For the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Rainforests

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Tuesday 13th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eden of Winton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their latest assessment of the effect of logging operations in the rainforests of Africa, Asia and South America; and what is the likely impact on the indigenous human, plant and animal life.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, more than 1 billion people depend in varying degrees on the forests for their livelihoods with many more depending on the ecosystem services they provide. Some 350 million people who live within or adjacent to dense forests depend on them to a high degree for subsistence and income. Degradation and deforestation cause a loss of between $2 trillion and $4.5 trillion per year in ecosystems goods and services.

[Lord Eden of Winton]

Does my noble friend share my concern that while good intentions are being declared across the world, rainforest logging operations continue at a higher rate than before? Is it not just possible that funnelling loads of money through the World Bank is the wrong way to go about things? My fear is that in relying on REDD-plus and so-called sustainable forest management, fund providers are being hoodwinked? Would my noble friend and her colleagues therefore give much greater support direct to NGOs and the like which know what is happening on the ground and are much better placed to achieve early practical progress at the grass roots, where it really will make a difference?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, my noble friend is to be congratulated on raising this issue again. It is true that these issues will not be dealt with singly by the UK or by Governments who are not prepared fully to accept that there is a lot of work and persuasion to be done, by rule of law, that illegal logging must be stopped. However, I reassure my noble friend that we work with NGOs and are a founding member of the Global Partnership on Forest and Landscape Restoration. We are working very closely with countries such as India to help restore and recover forests. My noble friend Lord Henley has just recently participated in the Global Partnership on Forest and Landscape Restoration in Bonn. Governments can do their part and NGOs can do theirs. However, countries where this is happening also have to respond with severe penalties.

[Lord Blencathra]

Does my noble friend agree that biodiversity and loss of species are even more important than climate change? With a huge amount of resources and tremendous effort, it is possible eventually to reverse climate change, but once a species is lost, it is gone for ever, and the damage could be irreparable. Does she also agree that this is not just a matter of polar bears, tigers or even red squirrels, but that many of the boring little unsexy species that could be lost by deforestation could actually be valuable to human life and existence?

[Baroness Verma]

My noble friend has put the case perfectly for why we need to work incredibly hard. That is why the UK has supported developing countries to participate in the United Nations study on the economics of ecosystems and biodiversity which estimates, as I have said, that the financial cost is immense but the cost to species is even greater, and the initial long-term impact will be on us.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that one of the largest single sources of global emissions is actually deforestation, often illegal logging? The British Government took the initiative a number of years ago to push for reforestation, and we are one of the few countries in the world with experience of it. Can we have an assurance from the Government that they will redouble their effort for reforestation as well as stamping out illegal logging?

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. It is about working with other countries, which we are doing aggressively. We have worked very closely to get all our partner countries to sign off the new EU timber regulation that came into force last December. It is about being persistent in our argument. I agree with the noble Lord that it is really a devastation to all countries if we do not tackle this issue right now.

[Lord Chidgey]

Is my noble friend aware that the Democratic Republic of Congo officially produces more than half a million cubic metres of timber each year, and illegally produces about the same amount each year? Is she also aware that British technology is now available to the DRC that tracks the entire supply chain of timber from standing forest trees to the wholesale timber market? What action will the Government take, therefore, to help facilitate the DRC Government’s efforts to complete negotiations with the European Union to enter into traceability agreements?

[Baroness Verma]

My noble friend is right about Congo. However, as with the previous question, it is about all partner countries being able to respond with severe penalties when they see illegal timber coming through their borders. Of course, the important thing is that these are conversations that continue. They are not had at one conference—it is a continuous conversation at many conferences, and it will arise again at the Durban conference in December.

[Lord St John of Bletso]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness give any indication as to whether our Government will be following the moves by Switzerland and Germany to investigate money-laundering of the proceeds of timber corruption by the chief minister of Sarawak in Malaysia? What other measures are being taken to identify and sanction those large international logging companies which do not ensure best practice in sustainable logging?

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Lord talks about a specific case, which I will not refer to. In a more general response, I would like to say to noble Lords that we are ensuring that we respond proactively to the difficulties we are all facing with this issue. The multinational companies that deal in illegal logging will find that the penalties for this will be severe. That is the agreement we are trying to get from all our partner countries so that it is not just a small group of countries that are willing to apply severe penalties, but that the penalties will be severe at every border that illegal timber comes through. It is about greater partnership but it is also about recognising that we are only a small cog when it comes to dealing with these issues and it is really for the whole world to respond collectively.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, what does my noble friend think about the UN-REDD initiative mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Eden? Is it cost-effective, and how much does the United Kingdom contribute to it annually?

[Baroness Verma]

I cannot give my noble friend a figure on the contribution at the moment; I will write to him on it. However, I repeat that we may think that some systems are weak, but we have to strengthen those systems—review and revise them—and make countries where deforestation and illegal logging take place responsible for responding positively.