Road Pricing

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 29th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to replacing excise duty on fuel with road pricing.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have no plans to consider road pricing. As set out in the letter to the Transport Select Committee in January 2023, the Government are focusing on delivering their core priorities.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, road pricing clearly touches a raw nerve in the body politic. The OBR has recently said of the Government’s policy on electric vehicles that it is

“rapidly eroding the £39 billion”

a year

“revenues from petrol and diesel”

taxes. That will leave a large hole in the Budget. The Transport Select Committee in the other place, with a government majority, said that work on road pricing should start straightaway. When I was Transport Secretary 30 years ago, I floated the idea, which is now much more feasible because of technological progress. If taxes made through the fuel duty are not replaced with something else, public transport will become much more expensive, undermining a sustainable transport policy. Should the Treasury be quite so hostile?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Treasury sees that there are many options going forward for the fuel duty and many broader motoring taxes—and indeed for all taxes. As we transition to net zero, the Government will need to ensure that the tax system encourages more EV uptake and that revenue from motoring taxes keeps pace while remaining affordable.

Financial Stability: Private Equity Firms

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 13th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not agree with the noble Lord. As he will have seen in the Autumn Statement, the Chancellor set out significant tax cuts to encourage growth. That is where we are focusing our firepower at the moment.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, further to the original Question about high interest rates, at the last general election the Green Party was committed to borrowing an extra £95 billion to pay for its commitments. What would this have done to interest rates?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would not wish to speculate; however, I am not sure it would have been good things.

NATS: Staffing

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There are plenty of questions there for me to get my teeth into. I shall focus on staffing and staffing resilience at Gatwick in the tower. Two unrelated operational incidents caused withdrawal pending review, which is a standard safety procedure, and that impacted the flow on that day. However, when NATS took over air traffic control at Gatwick in October 2022, it inherited a staffing shortage. It takes at least 13 months to train an air traffic controller at a specific airport, and as I am sure the noble Baroness realises, 13 months have not yet elapsed. We have reviewed NATS’ plans, we are continuing to do so, and we believe that progress is being made.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, a fortnight ago, I asked my noble friend whether NATS should be liable to pay compensation for its failures in the same way as the airlines are, but she resisted. In defence, she said that NATS’ licence conditions allow penalties to be imposed for its failures. However, in a Written Answer, my noble friend told me that over the past five years, those penalties amounted only to £600,000, whereas this month the airlines have had to pay £100 million for NATS’ failures. Surely NATS should have to pay compensation in the same way as the airlines.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his continued questions on this matter. There are 55 licensed air navigation service providers in the UK. I am not saying that all of them could look after Gatwick, because it is incredibly complicated, but it is a commercial operation, entirely separate and different from what happens in upper air space, which is what I think my noble friend was questioning me about last week. There is a contractual arrangement between the airport and NATS which will include service level agreements and, I am sure, financial penalties, but it is a commercial matter of which the Government do not have oversight.

National Air Traffic Services: Operational Failure

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government deeply regret the recent NATS operational failure and its impact on airlines and their customers. The incident is being investigated and lessons will be learned. NATS has an outstanding aviation safety record and is regulated against service targets set by the Civil Aviation Authority. There are incentives for NATS linked to its performance; failure to reach target levels may incur penalties and reduce the charges paid by airlines.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, last week 2,000 flights were cancelled because of NATS’s inability to process flight plans, and a quarter of a million passengers were grounded. When airlines are responsible for delays, they must pay compensation to the passenger and pay for alternative flights, accommodation and food. When NATS is responsible for delays, no compensation is payable at all—and, worse, the airlines have to pick up the bill for alternative flights, food and accommodation, which, in this case, was £100 million. Both NATS and the airlines are commercial companies—NATS had a profit of £150 million last year—so is not the differential compensation between NATS, on the one hand, and airlines, on the other, wholly indefensible?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for highlighting this issue, but I am afraid that I do not accept the premise that the two are comparable. There are elements in NATS’s current licence that allow financial penalties to be placed on it in the instances of poor performance. Indeed, as I stated in my first Answer, there is also a mechanism to reduce charges in subsequent years to the airlines because of poor performance. However, I would say that the event that happened was, thankfully, very rare; nothing similar had been seen for over 10 years. Therefore, we are very grateful for the work that the airlines did, and we worked closely with them to repatriate people as necessary.

Bus Funding

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have to remind noble Lords that this is not the only money the bus sector gets; there are many other streams that should be considered. I think there is just over £1 billion in concessions; there is the existing money, £260 million, from BSOG; and obviously there is some money in the block grant. All in all, we have to be realistic about what the bus sector is going to look like in the future. It will have to adjust to new travel patterns, but there is the combination of this new funding and the existing funding, which will stay in place, and we have committed to having conversations with the operators and local authorities about longer-term measures, which will include a reform of BSOG. I would not be surprised if that reform looked very carefully at emissions from buses. One could put that in place, although an element of BSOG is already based on zero-emission buses.

All in all, I am satisfied that the sector is getting the funding it needs, and we need to work as hard as we possibly can with the operators and local transport authorities to encourage people back to buses, including those who use concessionary fares. I believe that if we do that, if we use the capital spending from the BSIP effectively, and if we have bus lanes and bus priority in the right sorts of places to improve the passenger experience, that combination of input is really good. Sitting there and saying, “Just throw money at the problem” is not it. We have thrown money at the problem. We have carefully considered how much money it needs, and we believe that this is a good future for the bus service.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I think that so far, the House may have been less than generous to my noble friend in the welcome they have given to her announcement. At a time of enormous pressure on public expenditure, an extra £300 million has been found to help the bus industry, and some funds going towards the caps. But I just pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Snape. At the beginning of my noble friend’s announcement, she said:

“Today I can announce a long-term approach to protect bus services”.


But then, towards the end, she said that the cap would be reviewed at 30 November next year and said:

“We will also undertake a review of bus fares at the end of November to support the sector”.


Can I press my noble friend a bit more on that review? November next year may be a sensitive political time and I think the bus industry and passengers will want to know before the end of November what the outcome of that review is going to be. Will my noble friend say a little more about the review, which will have to be announced before the end of November? What is the timing of it and what is the consultation exercise that will be involved in identifying the outcome of that review? I assume it will involve consultation with local authorities, passenger representatives and operators, so a little more on the timing of that review would be very helpful.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his welcome of this funding, this additional £500 million for the sector. Yes, he is right: November next year may well be a very sensitive political time. I suspect that the review will happen before the November period. One thing that needs to happen prior to the review kicking off is the completion of various reforms. Reforms to BSOG will be key. We will also need to see how travel patterns have been impacted by the fare cap. Again, we will be getting data back from operators as to the implications and the price elasticity of demand when it comes to fares, and whether they have encouraged people back on. So, I will write with further information if I have it, but I suspect the details of the review will become clearer in about spring next year, by which time we will have brought in some of the reforms we plan to undertake later this year, particularly around the calculation of concessionary fares reimbursements and BSOG. Those things need time to bed in, so we can see what the landscape looks like.

Public Service Vehicles (Accessible Information) Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am extraordinarily grateful for all the comments from my noble friends and all other noble Lords. They mostly welcome this SI because there is nothing in it that cannot be welcomed. I also welcome the enormous experience of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and his description of the time when he was working at TfL and the Tube. I agree with him; it is about culture, and one of our challenges is to inculcate that culture onto the buses. I do not know how many bus operators there are—the number 140 is in my head but I cannot remember—but it is a lot. Some operators are extremely small with fewer than 20 vehicles. This is about making sure that we bring everyone along with us, although I have to say that I expect some of the big operators in the larger metropolitan areas to be very much on the front foot with this. I expect that disability campaigners and representative groups will be on their cases— I hope that they are—to get dates for implementation from those companies that, frankly, have the wherewithal to do so quickly and set an example that others might follow.

I turn to some of the comments from my noble friends. The first was from my noble friend Lord Borwick. He was duffing me up a little. The “violent chastisement” of my noble friend Lord Borwick were the words of my noble friend Lord Young. I should like to say in mitigation that I was the Buses Minister for a vast period when we as the Government were considering this SI. I was pushing for improvements and to move things faster. It was disappointing every time when, as a Minister, I had to decide whether to reprioritise and re-timeline various things.

Covid has faded into the rear-view mirror, but it is extraordinary to me how, for more than two years of my life, it was all-consuming. For that time, as Buses Minister, saving the bus at all was my absolute priority, and it was a priority for the sector. I think there were two issues why the delay due to Covid happened. First, there was reprioritisation within my department as we were coming out of Covid—and we could potentially see the endgame—and we tried to get the national bus strategy out there to help in that recovery and to provide that strategic framework that we needed. Secondly, there was the ability of the operators to be able to give headspace to the very technical and detailed arrangements that they needed to consider to make these regulations right. Frankly, they were more concerned about keeping the buses on the road, keeping the drivers trained and recruiting drivers—all of the challenges that have either happened during Covid or subsequently.

While it is always regrettable when one has to deprioritise anything because there are other more pressing issues, having a stable bus network was the right priority at the time. I wish that we had been able to do everything at once but sometimes in Government, one just cannot. When it comes to these regulations and the technicality around them, it is because buses are not standard, and they can come from all sorts of manufacturers in various parts of the world. Therefore, there had to be a reassurance that whatever we put in the regulations worked on the buses that were available. Of course, the older buses are not particularly standard at all—some of them have very random seat configurations —and they often operate on the rural routes, the less profitable routes, or sometimes the supported routes by local transport authorities. They are the ones with the greatest vulnerabilities—so it is about getting that balance right between implementing those very important changes while making sure that we maintain all the benefits of buses which all noble Lords have already discussed today.

This was particularly reflected in the comments by my noble friend Lord Holmes in the way that buses can be the most inclusive form of transport and they are the best-loved form of public transport in our country. I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for his positive remarks; he has been an assiduous campaigner in this area for many years. I completely agree that these benefits are for all people. There cannot be a noble Lord in this room who has not forgotten to get off the bus at some point or another. Our reflections in our analysis show that we do believe this will encourage more people on to buses—not just those with disabilities, but other people too as they feel reassured about the information provided on their journey. This is part of the mitigation for the cost of putting it in place in the first place.

My noble friend Lord Holmes also mentioned Northern Ireland. The matter of equalities is devolved to Northern Ireland. However, Translink, the bus operator there, has got audio-visual equipment widely deployed on its buses. I would encourage anybody to go to Northern Ireland, because it is a fantastic place for a holiday. Extra information can be added, but that is up to the discretion of operators. As I said previously, we expect some sort of increase in patronage as a result of this. It is difficult, obviously, to put a firm figure on it, but we do think it will be a positive outcome.

On floating bus stops, the Department for Transport is undertaking some research to ensure that they do the job they are intended to and can be operated safely. My noble friend Lord Holmes also mentioned bringing forward the review of the regulations. It is our intention to review them after five years, but noble Lords will be able to see our progress due to the annual bus statistics. This is a key document issued by the department, which collates all sorts of interesting information about buses, whether they are zero emission et cetera. One of the stats that we will put in that will be the extent to which this is being rolled out. I think that will enable the Government to think about whether it is going quickly enough.

My noble friend Lord Young mentioned support for smaller bus services. It is envisaged that the roughly £4.5 million will cover all the costs of implementation for those operators with fewer than 20 vehicles, which is incredibly welcome. He asked whether the bus driver could just shout, but visual information needs to be provided as well and the two often go hand in hand, so I do not think it would fulfil the requirements in the regulations for the bus driver just to shout.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am looking at Regulation 13, which is entitled “Requirements regarding audio information”. There is a lot about the volume, but it does not say that the information must come from a machine; it seems that it could come from the driver. I do not see where Regulation 13 excludes the driver providing the information.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This might be one of those grey areas. My officials say that it is right that the driver could provide the information, but there is a minimum and a maximum volume for that information. I suppose that the driver could provide it, but I do not think this would be widespread across the bus industry, given that much of the technology links audio and visual together and the computers behind it project that information at the same time.

Information at bus stops is a key part of the national bus strategy. It is not the responsibility of the operators; they provide the information that is used for those real-time scoreboards at bus stops, but bus stops are operated by local transport authorities, as I am sure my noble friend knows. The BODS is the DfT’s means of collating as much real-time information as is available and making it available to local transport authorities, which can then put it into bus stops. Some of the BSIP funding we issued to successful local transport authorities recently will go into boosting the information at bus stops. I agree that it is very helpful to know when your bus will arrive.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned contrast. There will be further information on that; we have discussed it with campaigners and representative groups in this area. It will be in the guidance, which will come out this summer. There will be training for drivers; it will not be centralised as such, but the operators will be encouraged to make use of the REAL training syllabus and can sign up to the inclusive transport leaders scheme to make sure that staff have the knowledge and skills to support all disabled passengers.

The regulations apply to a service and not a vehicle. Therefore, if a vehicle is being used in different services—it might sometimes be running a scheduled service and sometimes be doing something else—it would still have to provide the information set out in the regulations.

I shall finish on enforcement, as I am conscious that I have spoken a fair amount. There are two main ways of enforcement. First, the Government will be able to check progress via the annual bus statistics, which come from industry, so we can chivvy people along as such. However, if elements go wrong for a certain customer or there is persistent non-compliance on a particular route or vehicle or by a particular operator, we would expect that passenger to escalate a concern to Bus Users UK outside London and to London TravelWatch inside London. That is the standard method; in my experience, passengers are very good at escalating concerns, particularly as this is such an important issue. We expect that bus operators will want to make their passengers aware of when they have fitted this technology in their area.

Great British Railways

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I completely agree with the noble Lord.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, further to my noble friend’s reply, while understanding the reason for postponing the legislation, can she confirm that it will not stop worthwhile reform, such as simplifying ticketing, introducing more e-tickets, replacing diesel trains on branch lines with battery electric trains and other steps such as providing more real-time information about trains?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can absolutely assure my noble friend that the Government are hard at work with the train operating companies, Network Rail and everybody in the railway industry to make sure that as much progress that can be made is being made. For example, the accessibility audit of all railway stations is now well under way and should yield really good results for accessibility in the future.

Airports: Delays

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 30th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, Ministers have been very clear that the current situation is unacceptable and that passengers must be properly compensated where applicable. We are working closely with industry as it resolves the current issues and today the Transport Security announced a set of 22 measures that this Government are taking to support the aviation industry.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. Responsibility for the chaos rests primarily with the airports, which are not providing the necessary support services, and with the airlines, which cannot provide the flights that people have paid for. To improve the industry’s response, a fortnight ago my noble friend set up a strategic risk group to meet weekly. Can she tell the House what fresh solutions that group is working on to minimise disruption to holiday travel; in particular, is it looking at lifting the restrictions on night flights?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The strategic risk group is now well under way. It meets weekly at the highest level. It is a CEO-level meeting with the Aviation Minister. It is working on all of the mitigations to the risks as they become higher up the priority list and therefore more urgent. The 22 measures are some of the things that have resulted from the strategic risk group and, indeed, from other conversations that are happening, particularly on the operational side of matters. On night flights, the Government are well aware that there is always a balance between the aviation travelling public and the communities that live and work near airports. The current rules extend to October 2025 and the Government have no plans to change them.

Temporary Cycle Lanes in London

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 4th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate has gone a little bit beyond my brief this morning, but I can reassure her that we work very closely with the manufacturers of the chargers—indeed, the operators of the chargers. Of course, we need the chargers to work, and we need to make sure that we work with local authorities to make sure that they do so.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

But, my Lords, did not the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea jump the lights by removing so precipitately the successful and popular bicycle lane in Kensington High Street, which was a crucial link in the east-west cycle route? At the next meeting of the Active Travel Oversight Group, on which my noble friend’s department sits, will she reopen discussions with the royal borough to see if the scheme can be reintroduced, with amendments if necessary?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Ah, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea—that well-known hub and hive of interest in cycling. Indeed, it has about 100 miles of road in the borough, but not a metre of cycle lane. But it is the case that the Active Travel Oversight Group, to which my noble friend refers, has discussed the issue of cycle lanes in that particular council. It is also the case that TfL has thus far not provided any active travel funding from the latest settlement to that council.

Historical Railways Estate

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am afraid I am not aware of the body the noble Baroness has just referenced. There are all sorts of budgets around. Obviously there is £500 million in the Restoring Your Railway fund and up to £2 billion in terms of cycling and walking. It is important to understand that, where particular railway properties fall into either of these schemes, their ownership can be transferred to the scheme’s promoters and therefore they can be maintained in future.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, in his foreword to the White Paper Great British Railways, the Secretary of State said that

“we now propose … ending the fragmentation of the past and bringing the network under single national leadership.”

Chapter 3 begins:

“Great British Railways will bring together the whole system”.


Can my noble friend confirm that responsibility for the Historical Railways Estate will be taken back from Highways England and given to Great British Railways?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his suggestion, which I note with great interest. However, no decisions have been put to Ministers about a transfer of some or all of the Historical Railways Estate to Great British Railways. There would need to be a power in the rail Bill and, although this might be contemplated, no decision has yet been made on that matter.

Britain’s Railways

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point about stations. Stations are a great asset, particularly in local communities, because sometimes they are not just railway stations. Certainly, I would like to see many more of them being developed into integrated transport hubs where we could have buses and active travel interventions as well, so that they connect much more into transport for the local community. Obviously, how station ownership and operation will pan out in the future will be subject to a fair amount of work. For example, some of them may end up being run by local government or local transport authorities, and we will be able to say more on that in the levelling-up White Paper.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Can my noble friend confirm that the key objectives of privatisation—which could have been called the “Young-Major plan for rail”, had modesty not intervened—will be retained? These objectives are: no monopoly in the train operating industry but new entrants encouraged; the capital costs of the passenger rolling stock and freight rolling stock borne by the private sector, not the public purse; and passenger service contracts being constructed to reward efficiency, quality and passenger growth. None of those characteristics is available under full nationalisation.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Bring back the Young-Major plan for rail greatness is what I say. I can absolutely confirm all those things to my noble friend. We are retaining the original objectives of privatisation to make sure that passenger services are awarded following a fair competition. We had to strip out some of the complexity of those competitions to allow train operators to bid on a simpler basis, and we think we have achieved that. We will open up new opportunities for private sector involvement where we can.

As I have said, the capital cost of passenger and freight rolling stock will be borne by the private sector. There will be a certain element of a guiding mind when it comes to a strategic intervention on the rolling stock, but this will not preclude train operating companies purchasing their own rolling stock. Obviously, we are replacing the franchises with this more commercially sustainable model of a passenger service contract, which will ensure that we get the right amount of innovation into the system and passengers benefit.

Railway Industry Association Report

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I take this opportunity to remind the House that the Green Party is against HS2, a position which I remain a little confused by. The noble Baroness is quite right that now is the opportunity to put our shoulder to the wheel and to electrify our railways as quickly as we can. That is why we will be setting out a rolling programme in the forthcoming RNEP, and why we take great heed of what was written by the Network Rail-led traction decarbonisation network strategy. That is not government policy, but there are some very important conclusions which we are looking at, and we will be putting them in the transport decarbonisation plan.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the report mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, makes a compelling case for accelerating the electrification programme so that we can hit our carbon commitments, but it says very little about the industry’s capacity to deliver, which historically has been disappointing. Can my noble friend ensure that if the recommendations are accepted, we have the technical skills and know-how to deliver, on budget and on time, and that any reorganisation of Network Rail will not impede progress?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right. Indeed, the Rail Industry Association report in 2019 set out that one of the root causes of the challenges of electrification was the 20-year hiatus that had previously occurred in the electrification projects, which led to a loss of specialist knowledge. But we are looking at the supply side of this to bring forward the rolling programme of electrification; I specifically point my noble friend to the Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy, which has a lot of information about the supply side. We are confident that, if we have the right programme in place, we can not only use the existing supply-side skills and expertise but grow them for the future.

Transport for London: Financial Settlement

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right: there have been some quite interesting fare increases—or not—from the mayor over recent years. We estimate that over the past four years his fares freeze has cost £640 million, which could otherwise have been spent on capital expenditure. But, as my noble friend knows, transport in London is devolved and it is up to the mayor and TfL to assess the merits of capital projects that they might want to invest in. However, it is absolutely clear that the Mayor of London must set a robust budget, demonstrate that TfL is on a clear path to achieving financial sustainability, and prioritise his capital expenditure. He will have to make difficult choices.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, many of us are old enough to remember renewing our road funds not with the DVLA but with the county council. It was £12 and 10 shillings when I started driving. I see that the Mayor of London has revived this policy as part of the problems of Transport for London, which would also broaden the base for local government taxation. Does my noble friend have a view on the merits of this policy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very interesting period of time that unfortunately I do not remember, but it is the case that the Mayor of London has some very interesting ideas as to how he wants vehicle excise duty to be spent. It is one of the proposals in the financial sustainability plan he has prepared, which I have to say does seem to have been drafted with a money-no-object mindset. Noble Lords will know that vehicle excise duty is used for the strategic roads network, which is the motorways and the major A roads, so unless we are going to stop Londoners from using our motorways and buying products that have been brought into London by HGVs travelling on them, I see absolutely no rationale for devolving VED.

Rail Freight: Channel Tunnel

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would love to have the answers to those questions, but I am afraid that I do not, and I do not have a calculator with me at this moment. However, I will write to the noble Lord with the details he has set out. It is the case that, in January, we were looking at daily HGV traffic flows in the region of around 2,800 vehicles on average and that we are now up into the area of mid-3,000 vehicles. I will write to the noble Lord with the analysis that he would like to see.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, is not one of the barriers referred to in the Question the fact that gauges in the UK restrict the destination of much of the freight traffic coming through the tunnel? What progress is being made with the gauge enhancement programme to make it easier to send more freight through the Channel Tunnel by rail?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This is a fascinating area and I thank my noble friend for raising it. We are developing a number of loading gauge enhancement projects to extend the strategic freight network of routes to offer the greatest flexibility for carrying intermodal shipping containers on standard wagons. We are working on the Great Western main line between Didcot and Bristol, on the Midland main line between Syston and Trent and, as I have mentioned, we are looking at alternative routes to the Channel Tunnel. Clearances for W10 and W12 will probably offer fairly poor value for money, so further development is more likely to consider W9A, which would allow containers on specialist wagons with lower decks.

Rail Fares: Flexi-season Tickets

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 4th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am afraid the Government do not accept that. We are undertaking rail reform. As the noble Baroness will know, now is probably not the right time to do it, in the midst of a pandemic, but as the course of the pandemic becomes much clearer, we will continue to work, as we have done for quite a while now, with Keith Williams on his root and branch review. We remain in close contact with him and he fully supports the ERMAs we have put in recently. The noble Baroness also said that the roads are congested. I do not know whether she has been outside recently, but they are not.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, any trial flexi-season ticket system needs government approval before it can start. Can my noble friend say whether she is looking at a national scheme with common rules, to avoid complexity, or whether each individual franchise will develop its own scheme? Will she ensure that any new scheme will be contactless, in order to keep down costs and save time?

Railways: Electrification

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is completely right that it has been under discussion for a long time—it is very important, and it is a very long-term plan. However, we are informed by the Network Rail-led traction decarbonisation network strategy, which feeds into what the Government are working on at the moment: the transport decarbonisation plan, which will be published shortly.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, given that, as we have just heard, it may be some time before the routes mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, are electrified, what measures can be taken in the meantime by the freight locomotive industry to minimise harmful diesel emissions—for example, particulate filters, selective catalytic reduction or, indeed, cleaner diesel?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Indeed, emissions are not just carbon: particulates play a huge role in poor air quality, and the freight-operating companies are taking active steps to reduce the amount of emissions their locomotives produce. For example, among other interventions the industry has begun using stop-start technologies—rather like we have on cars—on locomotives to reduce emissions when idling. We continue to work with the rail freight industry and the Rail Safety and Standards Board to look at what we can do and what research and development needs to be undertaken to reduce all emissions from rail freight.

National Bus Strategy

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, roadworks have been quite a focus for the Department for Transport over recent months. It is the case that nearly all local authorities operate a permit scheme for undertakers to have access to the road when they want to dig it up, and they have powers to co-ordinate those works and to charge the undertakers when the works are not done in time. Not only that, the department has set up the Street Manager system, which is a digital service that puts all the information about roadworks in one place. It is open data that is available to bus companies, so they can see where roadworks are taking place.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the first traffic lights in this country were installed outside the Palace of Westminster in 1868, since when the technology has improved; they can now detect an oncoming bus and go green. What more can my noble friend do to promote this capability so that more buses arrive on time and we improve the reliability of this important form of transport?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right that we have come on in leaps and bounds since 1868. In the first instance, many buses have transponders fitted to them, which will communicate with the traffic light controller and can cause the light to change. However, newer technology uses GPS tracking rather than transponders; again, that can communicate with traffic lights, but it can also provide real-time bus information, which can be made available at bus stops.

Railways: Fare Structures

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her advice; I am sure the Treasury is listening. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, earlier, we are considering plans for rail fares in the future, but we are working very hard on how to modernise our ticketing offer such that rail travel is as affordable as we can possibly make it.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, one of the challenges facing the railways is to spread the morning peak; reduced fares kick in after about 9 am. Would my noble friend consider reductions for journeys that begin before, say, 7 am, to spread the peak earlier as well as later?

Rural Bus Services

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I partially agree with the noble Lord in that it is key for all local services, wherever they are, to be integrated with other modes, be they long-distance coach-type journeys or rail services provided between cities or over shorter distances. Integration is important, so to a certain extent it needs a guiding mind. We will be looking to local authorities to pick up the pen on that and take it forward.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, we all agree that public transport is essential for those who live in rural areas and do not have access to a car. However, does it all have to be provided by buses, which often do not run at the times when people want them, do not go from home to destination and back, and frequently lead to narrow country lanes being blocked by large vehicles? Can the Minister do more to promote demand-responsive, community-based services to complement those provided by the bus?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is right: an empty double-decker bus careening through narrow country lanes simply will not do. One of the solutions that may be appropriate for rural areas is demand-responsive transport. That is why in September 2019 we launched the £20 million Rural Mobility Fund. We asked for expressions of interest and have had 53. I take great heart from that and at the moment we are reviewing those. We probably do not want to launch them now, in the middle of the pandemic, but we hope that will go on to prove what kind of demand-responsive transport works and what does not, and then we will be able to roll it out more broadly.

Covid-19: Transport for London

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we are currently in discussions with TfL and the mayor on a further extraordinary funding agreement. My noble friend will agree that the mayor has choices to make to balance the books of TfL. When he has made those choices, they will become conditions attached to support from the UK taxpayer. My noble friend will understand that it would be inappropriate to discuss the details of ongoing discussions at this time.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. With the other place in recess and government support for Transport for London running out tomorrow, this is Parliament’s last opportunity to find out what is going on. Does my noble friend agree that, if giving more powers to mayors and metro mayors is to work, both sides should moderate their language during negotiations and avoid wild accusations; that any support for Transport for London should take us beyond next May’s mayoral elections; and that any government support for Transport for London should be fair to the national taxpayer and proportionate to other parts of the country while leaving the decisions as to how it should be funded to the Mayor of London?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend that negotiations between the Government and the Mayor of London—indeed, all mayors—should be based on mutual respect and professionalism. I am pleased to report that, for example, our conversations with the mayor and his team yesterday were very cordial and constructive. The details of the current settlement are still under discussion and we are making good progress. I am pleased to confirm that the Government are committed to the principle that any government funding must be fair to UK taxpayers.

Covid-19: Transport Industry

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware of the very difficult situation that the coach industry finds itself in. It is a very diverse sector with, as the noble Lord points out, a large number of family-run businesses. About 80% of revenue in the coach sector comes from tourism, and we are working very hard with DCMS to ensure that where tourism—particularly domestic tourism—can take place, it does. Much of the remaining 20% is home-to-school transport, and the Government have made available £40 million for the first half of this current term, for local authorities to procure extra vehicles.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, further to the Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in 10 days’ time, the emergency funding that the Government agreed with Transport for London to keep the buses and Tubes running runs out. Can the Minister reassure the House that there will be some agreement thereafter? If the Mayor of London has asked for £5 billion, how will any future burden be shared between the national taxpayer, travellers and London’s council tax payers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend mentions the figure of £5 billion: well, the Mayor of London would say that, wouldn’t he? As part of the first bailout, the Government commissioned a government-led review of TfL’s finances and I am afraid that it did not make happy reading, even prior to the pandemic. Multi-year fare freezes are indeed a great vote winner, but eventually one has to make very difficult choices, so the Government will be ensuring that the Mayor of London makes those choices in order to get TfL back on to a financially sustainable footing so that we can protect the interests of the UK taxpayer.

Holidays: Cancellations

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 30th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the arrangements in place to compensate customers whose holidays are cancelled.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the challenge consumers and businesses are experiencing regarding refunds for cancelled holidays and flights. We are clear that where a flight or holiday has been cancelled, consumers have a legal right to a refund, which must be paid. The Civil Aviation Authority launched a review into this issue, and as a consequence most airlines are now paying refunds effectively.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. She will be aware that tens of thousands of passengers have complained to the CAA about inexcusable delays in getting compensation for cancelled flights, and that the Consumers’ Association has criticised the CAA, saying:

“It is obvious that the CAA does not have the right tools to take effective action against airlines that show disregard towards passengers and the law”.


Will my noble friend therefore bring in much-needed reforms to enable the regulator to take swift and effective action to protect consumers when the law is broken?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The CAA has a range of powers available to it to take a proportional and pragmatic approach to enforcement. Indeed, a number of conversations have taken place, in particular bilateral engagement between the CAA and individual airlines to encourage them to refund more quickly. The pandemic has highlighted a number of challenges and my department is keen to work with the regulator, industry and consumer groups to learn lessons and make changes in the future.

Railways

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, Network Rail is of course extremely conscious of the changes to our climate and the impact that that might have on infrastructure. The dreadful event that happened at Stonehaven is an ongoing incident and it is being investigated by the RAIB, the ORR and the BTP. We cannot make further detailed comment or speculate at this time, but those investigations continue, and the causes of the accident will be investigated fully.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend give an assurance that any future plans for the railways will not return us to a state-owned monopoly—as has been advocated by some—but keep the franchising principle? This has brought new operators, new ideas and new capital into the railways, and enables the Government to get the best deal for travellers and the taxpayer by the competitive tendering process.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I pay great tribute to my noble friend and his time as Transport Secretary. I had the opportunity to go back and look at some of his words in Hansard from when he was Transport Secretary—I think it was 1995 to 1997. There were also some interesting photographs, which noble Lords might want to have a look at, at some stage. My noble friend is absolutely right that we must retain the benefits of private sector involvement in the railways. That is at the heart of how we can make sure that our railways are as effective as possible. Of course, Keith Williams has looked at all these issues and very much recognises that point. The new model that we are developing will ensure that the railway benefits from all that the private sector has to offer in innovation, customer centricity, investment and so on.

Covid-19: Aviation

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I refer the noble Lord to the response that I have just given about the aviation restart and recovery expert group. It is looking at all the issues that he has, rightly, pointed out, including the impact on the wider supply chain across the aviation sector. Project Birch is not industry-specific but is open to any company that makes a significant economic contribution to our country. It will offer bespoke support to a specific company, and that will be done from a value-for-money perspective for the taxpayer, on a company-by-company basis. In that regard, we will be able to support some of our most important companies that contribute to our economic future.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the challenges facing the UK aviation industry are replicated throughout the world. The International Civil Aviation Organization has set up an aviation recovery task force. It was due to report by the end of last month, setting out policies and priorities for recovery. Can my noble friend tell the House what progress that task force has made and how it relates to the work of the steering group, to which she has just referred?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That is a very good question from my noble friend. The UK is an important member of the ICAO and it plays a leading role in the ICAO Council Aviation Recovery Taskforce, or CART. The CART brings together states and the industry to develop guidance. It published its first report earlier this week, on Tuesday 2 June, and it includes strategic priorities for the aviation sector going forward. I mentioned earlier the common health standards that are being developed by the expert group. Those standards will of course also link into the international health standards that are being developed across various countries, to make sure that air passengers have a seamless end-to-end journey.

Transport Infrastructure

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I was Secretary of State for Transport in 1996, when we gave the go-ahead for HS1—the fast link between St Pancras and the Channel Tunnel. It was opposed by local MPs and challenged through the courts. People said it was too expensive and it was challenged on environmental grounds. People said we should spend the money on local lines instead. Today, not a single Member of your Lordships’ House would argue that HS1 was not the right decision to take. Will it not be the same in 25 years’ time about HS2?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his question, which was not a plant. Last Friday I went on HS1 and had the honour of being in the cab. It was amazing, although they did not let me drive the train. I drove the simulator afterwards. It was striking that when you are in the cab and looking down the track, it is beautiful, it is straight and it works. There is little clutter and you can see that it is modern. Barrelling along at 140 miles per hour, you think, “I could go a bit faster, actually”. I went from St Pancras to Ashford, an area that has been revolutionised. The development there has been amazing. I agree with my noble friend; HS1 was a great boon and HS2 will be, too.