EU Court of Justice Ruling: Religious Signs

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I could not agree more with the right reverend Prelate. This is a great country to live in no matter your religion or belief. Long may we go about freely expressing our religion and living our lives in the way that we see fit. The right reverend Prelate spoke about different laws in different countries. Obviously last year there was a ruling in France over the burkini, which was subsequently rejected.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes an encouraging point—that 58% of people would not want such a ban imposed. In my previous job, integration was a strong part of what we did, particularly for communities new to this country or to localities within it. We cannot let that integration work go. I commend all those involved in such work and, since the Church of England is so well represented here today, the work that it has done in particular. Yesterday I talked to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham about the community sponsorship scheme—although we were supposed to be talking about something entirely different—as well as the Church’s work in its Near Neighbours programme.

[Baroness Uddin]

My Lords, having reflected on this discussion, I welcome the Government’s stance and the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi. I was thinking whether under such a ban I would get away with saying that what I am wearing today was my blonde version, notwithstanding that red is my favourite colour. How does the Minister plan to communicate with employers to make them aware of the provision under the Equality Act 2010 that specifically protects religious freedom and to ensure that this is not infringed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is right. As I pointed out in my Statement and in responding to the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, we shall be working with the ECHR on updating our guidance for employers on dealing with religion or belief in the workplace. I see no reason why our country’s stance should change in the light of this judgment.

Women: Domestic and Sexual Violence Services

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness will know that the funding of £20 million she refers to has only just been announced and it is for victims of domestic violence. The tampon tax fund for 2017-18 of £15 million will most definitely focus on improving the lives of disadvantaged women and girls, including the organisations supporting women and girls affected by violence and abuse.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

Although I very much welcome the Government’s announcement of the money that the Minister just mentioned, which I assume is in addition to the £20 million in the Budget to which she also referred, how will their commitment transpire in local government politics and priorities? Many local authorities are not choosing to prioritise domestic violence in the same way as the Government. For example, Tower Hamlets Council has just closed some of the longest-serving women’s organisations, which supported vulnerable women, just as she described. What will she do to ensure that local authorities make that as much of a priority as the Government seem to?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness will know that the Government set out a national statement of expectations, which placed an expectation on all local authorities to provide the services that those women—they are mostly women—need. Local authorities can bid into the VAWG transformation fund. The whole point of doing things the way we are now is that one concern previously was that women were dealt with only in the local authority from which they came. If you are a victim of domestic violence, you are not usually going to stay in that local authority, so the whole strategy of expectations and the whole new model of providing services recognises that.

Preventing and Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Violence (Ratification of Convention) Bill

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 10th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I welcome today’s Second Reading and congratulate Dr Whiteford and her colleagues in the other place, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, for their persistence in getting us to this point. This pernicious abuse of women’s rights and human rights continues to plague our society. It is almost regarded as normalised behaviour in many households. Needless to say, it transcends all communities; shockingly, many women seem not to know still that it is against the law.

An internationally recognised provision would lend significant armoury to the many women human rights defenders, as well as instructing in no uncertain terms still largely male-led institutions that eradication of violence against women is as important a priority as providing education, health and housing. They would not be able to hide behind austerity measures and make women’s refuges and other services their first collateral.

We should take pride in the UK in having secured some of the best policies and practices on domestic violence, including the introduction of new domestic abuse offences, protection orders and criminalising forced marriage—with which I do not agree, but it appears to be doing its job. Then there are the more vigorous laws on female genital mutilation. But we need to go further in providing absolute protection to those facing violence and seek to eliminate violence against women.

We have tolerated consecutive generations of violence plaguing women’s lives, with two women facing death each week. There are 1.2 million women victims, and more than 87,000 rapes are reported on top of 400,000 sexual assaults. God alone knows how many women are still not able to report these incidents. In addition, 11,900 children were raped last year. Twenty-nine per cent of all those statistics are from the BME communities. So despite all the progress of women’s emancipation, our daughters and granddaughters are still facing an insurmountable level of barbaric violence in our society, and we have to do everything we can to ensure that it does not continue.

The UK’s role in shaping the Istanbul convention was significant, so I do not understand how five years have since passed and we have not chosen to ratify it. I am glad to have arrived at this point, whereby government is prepared to work towards compliance. Ratification would indicate a powerful step towards empowerment of women and is certain to afford greater protection of women and girls suffering violence, as well as pushing for a more comprehensive response to addressing violence and giving victims and survivors rightful access to all the necessary specialist services. Ratifying the convention adds another layer of protection, enables local and international agencies to respond more comprehensively and offers parliamentarians a further instrument of accountability. Ratification would assist in harmonisation of laws and assist government and state agencies to respond within a comprehensive framework and set of policies which not only provide enhanced protection but also seek to empower women. Why would we not do it without any hesitation?

On the extraterritorial requirement, I was involved in the dowry inquiry led by Mr Virendra Sharma in the other place last year. A huge number of British citizens complained either that their marriages were not legally recognised in this country and that when they faced violence they had no recourse to law, or that the laws under which they were married in one country were not recognised in this country. That level of harmonisation would, I hope, be an integral part of this.

We have laws and are continuously improving on their implementation. The Istanbul convention can be another layer of safety. We are a signatory, and now need to show that we are serious about eradication of violence by ratifying it. I believe that, by ratification, we would demonstrate our total commitment to all men and women that violence in all its forms is not tolerable in our society today. Ratification embodies a cohesive and integrated approach, not only protecting women with laws but mandating institutions to provide the necessary services, so that women and girls can live free of fear of violence.

Finally, I am confident our ambition is safe in the hands of our current Prime Minister, and the Minister here, who has done much to advance the previous progresses made on this issue. But can the Minister say what the implication of the Brexit negotiation will be on the reporting requirement or signing up to the ratification?

International Women’s Day

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the honourable Minister for initiating this debate and I also pay personal tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for so ably holding the fort on the issue of PSVI.

After 100 years of resistance, where have we come? We can take some pride and recognition, but not equality, for granted—there are miles to go. On every national and international platform, men continue to assert and define rights—rights to legislate and lead—while women continue to share responsibilities and bear sanctions without options on the division of their labour. The 2017 theme, Be Bold for Change, is a call for action for gender equality. Since January this year, we have seen the emergence of a new, bold resistance.

Yesterday, women across the world again demonstrated that they are prepared to challenge the status quo, stand in solidarity and oppose division and hate. New hope for activism has emerged in the guise of the movement to resist the new agenda of rising nationalism. Women are organising from every corner of the globe, standing shoulder to shoulder, knowing that changes may yet take more time but none the less prepared for the long battle ahead for sanity and justice. Those of us who marched against the attack on Iraq were plagued with a sense of defeat at not being able to stop our Government on their onward march to destroying world peace.

If there were any such doubts about the validity and impact before the women’s march began on 21 January, such reservations were vociferously answered by all the women standing together in the world. On 21 January, women and men marched throughout the world. Millions reclaimed their towns and cities with over 600 marches, including one in London, in what was estimated to be the largest co-ordinated demonstration in history. This new phenomenon is extraordinary in its ambition and inspirational in its message of hope to stand together against hatred—so there is boldness in the air.

Despite the many barriers mentioned by my noble friend Lady Howells and the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, there are changes afloat across the world in many countries. I was truly inspired by the many women leaders I met this year, particularly in Morocco, UAE, Turkey, Sudan and the US, where remarkable women are visible and active, leading government departments, universities, businesses and NGOs in their country, just as many women are doing in the UK. Many among them are dealing with the current global refugee crisis.

Having previously visited a small refugee camp in Athens with a group of parliamentary colleagues, I cannot comprehend the condition of Syrian women and their families fleeing their war-torn conflict zone. Women and girls make up 50% of the refugee population. They face insurmountable challenges, particularly if they are fleeing alone with their children, or if they are pregnant, disabled or elderly, and many human rights defenders have become anonymous in the face of humanitarian catastrophe. 

Although my family and I have experienced war, it is not possible for me to comprehend the level of desolation of modern warfare, so we will have to remain resolute. Alongside providing security, shelter and basic needs, we have to remain vigilant and continue to ensure that services are available to protect women against rape, early marriage, violence and abuse.

In regard to this work I would like to pay tribute to two organisations: the women-led organisation Global One, which works in Lebanon, and Islamic Relief, for its persistence in so many dangerous zones and in particular for supporting vulnerable women in refugee camps. I also pay tribute to Dr Shaikha Al Maskari, a much respected UAE businesswoman whom I have had the pleasure of getting to know and who has dedicated her time, energy and personal funding to numerous refugee camps. I salute them all.

Bringing matters home, women NGOs have suffered massively from government cuts this last year. Among the casualties were two iconic women’s organisations in Tower Hamlets. They have been closed down, I believe, as a direct result of male leadership and local authorities not valuing or understanding the needs of BME women—discarded with disdain for women’s empowerment. I also wish to reiterate that women’s organisations in the vanguard, including Southall Black Sisters and the Newham Asian Women’s Project, among many other women’s empowerment projects, have seen drastic cuts in their programmes, rendering vulnerable women hopeless and helpless.

That brings me to my final few points. Muslim women have become a symbol of many of the ills of our society, including the inability to prevent radicalisation. Sadly, this is an oversimplification, if not a deliberate confusion of Islamic traditions within the constraints of a patriarchal society’s proscription and practice. Discriminating against women is as evident among Muslim families as anywhere else in Britain and the world. Unfortunately, the triple whammy is that women often have to negotiate choices between emancipation and Islamophobia. I will resist detailing the teachings of Islam, for we know how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but I commend the ongoing scholarly work of the honourable Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah in contextualising women’s rights within Islam. He reminds us that Islam forbids injustice and makes an explicit distinction between Islamic teachings and societal traditions and practices.

Yet again, discussions around the lives of Muslim women have been mounted on the usual parody of forced marriages and sharia councils, with repressed, hapless women intellectually bankrupt of self-dignity. This happens at the hands of a small number of vociferous voices both within this Mother of Parliaments and outside in general, with two government inquiries into the impact of sharia councils not paying the required attention to a wide range of economic and educational concerns, in addition to the impact of Islamophobia. I would indeed welcome some attention being paid to equality of opportunity for the 49% of people in higher education and the dismal level of female BME representation in public office and on company boards.

Added to this onslaught, the Casey report piled on a timely attack, coming on the back of divisions and fear post Brexit—this was a case in point—offering the usual junket of references directly out of the pages of the previous misguided Cantle hyperbole on communities. It is as though the authors themselves are living in their blessed cocoons of a new nationalism based on veiled vitriol and lack any solutions for or comprehension of the danger of generalisation, portraying all women as living in repressive parallel alien community structures and whipped-up hysteria. It begs the question of whether the way the report portrayed Muslim women should bear any responsibility for the corresponding rise in hate crimes against Muslims, particularly women—or is it being suggested that the victims themselves should bear the responsibility for being attacked for living in an overprotected patriarchy? These generalisations reinforce division. They are dangerous and simply wrong. They keep Muslim women out of power and out of office. If the Casey report is to be implemented, I would ask the Minister what kind of programme is being proposed and what the Government are doing to involve Muslim women leaders in the delivery mechanism—not only those on its own list of approved mouthpieces but those with credibility on the ground.

Does the Minister accept that the Maria Miller report on employment needs more serious consideration by the Government? Surely, economic engagement is likely to lead to the greater empowerment of women. A staggering 30% of Muslim women are out of the economy, albeit that I quote the figure with caution because I do not accept that a full and credible assessment has been made of the true figure of BME women who are either out of or on the periphery of employment. What are the Government doing to utilise the Miller findings to help economic and employment integration?

Finally, I understand the frustrations of women around the world whose place in society is defined and judged—ill judged—not by their contribution to Britain, not by their intellectual capacity and skills, but by their clothing, culture and faith. To address these inequalities as lawmakers, we have to demonstrate that we are prepared to be bold in order to create the necessary change.

Taqiyya and Al Hijra

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with my noble friend, and as he was asking that question I was thinking about Catholics during the Reformation and Jews during the Second World War. Sometimes religions have to preserve themselves not by denial but by concealment on pain of death.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords—

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[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords—

[Baroness Uddin]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will know that we regularly review Prevent. In fact, Prevent has been reviewed quite recently, and has been seen to help those who might be targeted by people who wish to put poisonous ideologies into their heads—in other words, the victims of these people—to turn their lives around.

[Baroness Uddin]

My Lords, given that the meaning of the two concepts has been well laid out before us by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, and their relationship to one another, I wonder whether the intention of the Question is to put British Muslims on notice. Therefore, does the Minister accept that terrorism has no home in any religion and that, in his Question, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is either being naive or it is a wilful act of incitement to Islamophobic prejudice with the presumed intent to insult Islam?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not know what is behind the noble Lord’s Question. This is his second Question of the year and perhaps in a future debate he will explain. However, yes, terrorism and religion do not sit together. No religious text promotes terrorism, and terrorism just seeks to twist what our faith teaches us.

Calais: Child Refugees

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I join the noble Lord in thanking all the volunteers and everyone who has been involved, including local authorities here, in expediting the process of getting children to this country. Why has it not happened sooner? I have explained several times now at this Dispatch Box that we have been reliant on several aspects of process to get the children transferred here, not least the lists we provide to the French through the NGOs. Those have now been forthcoming and have been released to us, and the process has started, albeit quite late in the day. But the point is that the process is well under way now as the camp begins to be cleared, and many of those children are now here.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

Can the Minister say what provisions are being made to ensure that child protection services are available at the points of entry? I also commend the work of all the social workers who have contributed to some of the assessments, making sure that vulnerable children who have already suffered a huge crisis in their personal lives are not prey to paedophilia.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness raises an important question. These children might be subject not only to paedophilia but to other types of trafficking and abuse, not least child labour, which may become rife if they are not safe and secure. As the noble Baroness will know, child protection is absolutely the top priority for the children that are in state care in this country. While those children are in France, they are subject to the child protection laws of France, which we respect as being quite closely aligned with our laws. In addition, a significant number of our staff went there over the weekend so that those children are protected during the camp clearance process.

Brussels Terrorist Attacks

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

That may be so. What I said in repeating the Statement was that we have the counterterrorism group, which is a very important part of sharing intelligence across EU member states. The headquarters of NATO are also in Belgium. NATO plays an important part in our security because it includes Turkey, which is crucial in the fight against Daesh.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Wallace, for their comments. My heart goes out to all those who lost their lives in Brussels and Ankara; the list given by the Minister is endless. I welcome his comments, particularly on building and developing a greater relationship with the Muslim community in particular, but also on having wider interfaith networks. I declare my interest as an adviser for the Tell Mama organisation, which will concur with the Minister about the increasing rise of attacks against women in particular. I am keen to ensure that the Minister takes on board the discussion with a wider network of men and women within the Muslim community, not just those to whom government approvals are available. Please can the Minister respond and tell us what plans the Government have to ensure that the numbers of organisations and individuals to which they are talking are widened to accept even the most marginalised voices in the community?

[Lord Bates]

We have the Prevent and the Channel programmes, but we also have them in the very helpful context of the counterextremism strategy, which was published at the end of last year. That will probably lead fairly shortly to some legislation coming through this House, which will flesh out some of the points that the noble Baroness raised. But I return to the point that some of the most effective means of combating this distortion and perversion of a great faith in this country come from within the communities themselves.

Women: Dishonour-based Violence

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, there are various things. Starting with the Home Office, we have the forced marriage unit, which has done tremendous work in going around the country and making sure that police, local authorities and schools understand the nature of the problem. We have just established the female genital mutilation unit, which will work in a similar way to promote awareness. Of course, it is vital that we work with these other organisations to which she has referred to ensure that we get the message across. The Chancellor announced a further £3 million for refuges for those suffering from domestic violence, and that area of access would be available to those who have suffered as a result of so-called honour-based crimes.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as one of the architects, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, of the first report on the task force on forced marriage, I welcome all the work that has been done—in particular by the Minister himself, and previously by the noble Lord who is now the Chief Whip. Will the Minister acknowledge the work of the Newham Asian Women’s Project and Southall Black Sisters, which have been stalwarts, but for which the funding has, sadly, been decreasing over the years? Can he assure the House that that funding support will continue, without which our commitment will not be met to the victims of forced marriage and so-called honour killing? By the way, I find absolutely distasteful the whole idea that it is an “honour” killing.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness’s terminology is absolutely right—it is anything but honourable. It is a way in which to categorise the term, and I have challenged it myself in talking about these matters.

On funding, I am very happy to look into the specific case that she raises about that refuge to see what we can do there, but I am sure that the Government are committed to tackling this whole wide area of violence against women and girls. The Prime Minister has put himself behind this—that is why we had the Girl Summit here a year ago. Then there is the work of my former right honourable friend William Hague in advocating this on an international basis, because that is also where the solution lies.

Police: Complaints

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is absolutely right to highlight the appalling situation that has been uncovered in Rotherham and South Yorkshire. That aspect of the South Yorkshire Police is, of course, subject to review by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, which undertook one review in 2013 and two in 2014. Reviews are now being undertaken by the National Crime Agency and Operation Stovewood. At this stage, we do not feel there is a need for a further independent inquiry but I would be very happy to meet my noble friend, as a very senior member of the community in that area, to see what more can be done to learn the lessons from that dreadful experience.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, last year the family of a severely autistic man, Faruk Ali, alleged that he was victimised by the police outside his home in Luton. The IPCC is currently investigating the incident in which an officer has been recorded deriding Mr Ali for his developmental disability and using racist language. Can the Minister confirm what steps the Government are taking to eradicate discrimination of this kind, which arises time and time again in complaints against the police? In asking this question, I declare my interests as set out in the register.

[Lord Bates]

The Government’s position is that we have a zero tolerance of that type of conduct and behaviour. As regards the specific case raised by the noble Baroness, I hope she will understand that I cannot comment on an ongoing IPCC inquiry.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Baroness Uddin Excerpts

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the Committee that I have not spoken before. However, I was present at Second Reading for the majority of the opening speeches, and I was present in the Chamber for much of the Committee stage on Monday, as I am today. I should like to speak briefly in support of the two amendments in the names of my noble friends, and I very much support what my noble friend Lady Warsi has just said.

I wonder whether, when he responds, the Minister could shed some light on why early years education has been included at all. I do not think that anyone has mentioned it yet, but I find the inclusion of early years education here very puzzling. Are we really looking for signs of radicalisation among nursery school children? I do not think that we have had a proper explanation of this and I would welcome one from the Minister.

There is a danger of alienating British Muslims in what is being proposed in relation to further education and university establishments. British Muslims are very well represented in universities, with some 50% now attending higher education. Is targeting universities and placing Prevent in the setting of a statutory duty really the right way to go about supporting the education and aspirations of young British Muslims who are keen to move on in their lives and careers and to integrate, or does it risk alienating whole communities, as has been mentioned by noble Lords around the Chamber? I have real concerns about that. There is also a danger in drawing conclusions about things that are said in universities. We all know that things are said in all sorts of wild situations—there can be debates on all sorts of subjects—but can that be equated automatically with radicalisation? Are we clear what we mean by that?

It is worth going back to something that I consider to be very important. The Minister has said on a number of occasions that the best way of tackling radicalisation and potential terrorism is by engaging with the British Muslim communities and other communities, working with them on an equal footing at the grass-roots level and not by employing a top-down approach. I fear that some of what is being proposed risks alienating people and driving them away, rather than encouraging them to engage in the way that we would want. To date, we have not had any evidence of any consultation or of how Prevent has worked historically. Those of us who have been involved in working with communities in the UK know how much in previous years—under this Government and the previous Government—the Prevent agenda polarised communities. It became a byword for the state spying on communities, not engaging with them, as my noble friend Lady Warsi has just said. It could be counterproductive. We need more evidence of engagement and consultation. We need to know how these so-called panels are going to work and whether they will be inclusive—not top-down and government led but community-led panels that will produce results.

I would appreciate it if my noble friend could respond to some of these points because they are at the heart of what we are trying to get to. If we cannot and will not engage but we go for the top-down approach—which may look very good in the headlines—will it work in practice? Will it achieve what we want it to achieve in terms of preventing terrorism?

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

I, too, hesitate to speak, not having been able to take part in the Second Reading debate, but I have taken considerable interest and have listened to much of the debate today. Today I am rather inspired and I hope that the Committee will forgive me for making a few comments, particularly about Prevent. I am inspired by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hussein-Ece and Lady Warsi, and would like to comment as someone who was involved in some of the Prevent work post-9/11 with Tony Blair’s Administration.

It is interesting and insightful to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, talk about her experience of how community organisations have been dissected into what, who and where it is acceptable to speak and consult. The Labour Government had a good track record in beginning the debate and consultation with the community—widely, not just within the confines of discussing radicalisation with the Muslim community but making sure that they worked across all the different communities, including the churches, synagogues and Gurdwaras. They worked with all the communities to ensure that Prevent was being discussed as something that was of mutual interest for everyone. Of course that was a long time ago, and the Labour Party lost its way particularly after—I do not know if I dare to mention her name—the right honourable Hazel Blears took responsibility for Prevent. We slightly lost our way in terms of consulting the communities.

I want to say something about the work that was done on Prevent because of the kind of discussion that we are having now about whether there should be statutory duties to report young children, and then moving on to those of a greater height, age and experience at university. I was with about 20 university students at the weekend. They were asking what the Government were suggesting. It is becoming difficult to even be allowed to think; they were saying, “Think now before it becomes illegal”. You can imagine the kind of discussion and concern that has erupted, particularly among university students. I worry about what we do in terms of preventing radicalisation and taking that to such an extent that free discussion and free thinking are completely against the law. I urge the Minister to rethink, as was suggested.

Right across our land, some extremely good work has been done over the past 10 to 15 years to prevent so-called radicalisation. That kind of work has been completely ignored by the current coalition Government, which is disappointing. Now we have very little dialogue with any of the big organisations that not only represent the Muslim community but work across it. I urge the Government to rethink before we embed Prevent, which is dreaded and hated with equal measure. To say that it will become the law of our country is unbearable and unthinkable. There is an enormous place for discussions with the community.

I have also read the article written over the weekend by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, in which she commends some of the points made in the letter sent by Eric Pickles to Muslim organisations. Overall the principle of the letter and the comments made in it are probably okay, but the context is not: it was targeted at 1,000 mosques, which I do not think is exactly appropriate. To the best of my knowledge, mosques are not where many of the radicalised movements have erupted. Also, the letter ignored many of the good organisations that are working in this country; their comments and contributions are not being taken on board, and they are not being consulted. That does not bode well for this important legislation, which will impact on a very specific, targeted community. We have to be very cautious about digging in our heels in our response. It has already been said that we should not jump into passing hasty legislation just because of one or two incidents. This is the time for reflection.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

The point that the noble Baroness makes about HEFCE is a very good one. Depending on the outcome of the consultation, it may well be the body which reviews this matter. It is important at this point that we get the terminology correct. It is a duty to have regard to the guidance available. That is quite distinct from being as prescriptive as some people have suggested we are being.

The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, to whose work on the Prevent programme I pay tribute, and my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece talked about the lack of work with local communities to target radicalisation. Challenging and tackling extremism is a shared effort. The Government have a role in leading this and ensuring that communities where extremists operate and organisations working against extremists have the capability to confront it themselves. Through Prevent, we are supporting community-based projects in 30 local authority priority areas where we fund a dedicated Prevent co-ordinator, alongside work with communities and partners in a further 14 supported areas where we support projects only. More than 180 projects have been approved since 2011, reaching more than 55,000 people. This year, we are supporting more than 80 projects. That is an example of what we are doing at the moment.

A number of noble Lords have referred to nurseries, which I acknowledge is an issue. My noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece and others were concerned about the message being sent. I understand that the Government have a job to do in getting the message across in a balanced way. Nurseries, schools, universities, FE colleges and prisons all have guidance in place to safeguard those in their care—that is a given. Such protection might be from child sexual exploitation; for example, in a nursery, something may give rise to a belief that some abuse is happening. Most people will have in place some system of guidance and say, “What do we actually do with that bit of information when it comes to our attention. Who do we pass it on to and how do we act upon it?”.

[Baroness Uddin]

Does the Minister agree that social services’ statutory guidance on responding to child sexual abuse or exploitation has evolved over decades, and that, even then, there has been malpractice or things that have gone drastically wrong and we have not always been able to protect children? How does the Minister envisage this new phenomenon of identifying those who may give some indication of predisposal to radicalisation? How does guidance take on board the identification of someone in a nursery or a school? If somebody said, “Actually, I hate Muslims”, is that person prone to radicalisation? If they were to say, “I hate Christians”, is that being prone to radicalisation? At what point is an investigation triggered? I speak as a former social worker in a child protection office. I know the trigger mechanism when someone is said to be vulnerable and what happens: a whole series—a whole plethora—of professionals are called in. We know that that is not an established practice at the moment, so how does he envisage managing this?

[Lord Bates]

In many ways, that is demonstrating what the Government are seeking to do in putting this on a statutory footing. We are saying that, at the moment, all that is being done is on a patchy basis. It is not formally and independently evaluated, a point that was made to the effect of, “How do we actually see how this is working? Which part of the Prevent budget is actually well spent?”. Of course, we do not know the answer to that at present. It is hoped that, if it is on a statutory footing, we are saying to all universities, “Listen, we want you to raise your game to the standards of the best, and where there is some evaluation of how institutions are performing against that criteria we will be able to measure the effectiveness of it”.

I am conscious of the time that I have been speaking; we are going to be returning to these issues in subsequent amendments, but let me deal with some of the issues of definition, because that was particularly what we wanted to focus on here. When we talk about extremism, we are talking about,

“vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs”.

Calls for the deaths of members of the British Armed Forces are also included. My noble friend Lady Warsi was no doubt part of the process that actually generated these definitions. With due deference to her, I appreciate that they are terribly difficult to arrive at, but that is the basis on which we are working.

When we talk about terrorism, we are talking about an action that endangers or causes serious violence, damage or disruption and is intended,

“to influence the Government or to intimidate the public and is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause”.

Again, definitions will always be a matter of argument and dispute, but those are the definitions of extremism and terrorism by which we are working.

On radicalisation, we are talking about,

“the process by which a person comes to support terrorism and forms of extremism leading to terrorism”.

Safeguarding is,

“the process of protecting vulnerable people, whether from crime, other forms of abuse or being drawn into terrorism-related activity”.

To complete the definitions, which I want to put on the record, vulnerability,

“describes factors and characteristics associated with being susceptible to radicalisation”.