Covid-19 Inquiry

Baroness Twycross Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Finn and Lady Brinton, for their comments. A number of important issues have been raised, which I will address. If there is not time for me to go through all the points, I will pick them up with the noble Baronesses afterwards. Because LRFs were noted, I should inform the House that I was chair of the London LRF during the pandemic.

In July last year, as your Lordships’ House will be aware, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, published her report from the first module of the Covid inquiry. It concluded that the UK was not as prepared as it should have been and that more could and should have been done, and this Government agree. Before I turn to our response, I join others in expressing my thanks to the noble and learned Baroness and her team for the work that they have done so far in the inquiry.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, made clear, our thoughts should also be with those who lost loved ones during the pandemic, so I also pay tribute to the bereaved families and friends. We have a visual reminder of that opposite Parliament in the form of the Covid memorial wall. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, made clear, a huge number of people helped both with the response and by keeping the country going through what was a very difficult time.

The Government accept the inquiry’s findings and agree that the UK was not prepared for a pandemic, as it should have been. We agree with what the inquiry is seeking to achieve through its recommendations but, in one or two instances, we may be using different means to achieve the same objectives. The noble Baroness, Lady Finn, highlighted some of the issues that led to the UK not being as prepared for the Covid pandemic as it should have been. There have already been significant improvements since, and I acknowledge the changes made by the previous Administration. However, clearly there is further to go.

My view is that our country’s resilience should not be politicised. I am grateful for the tone of the debate so far, which has reflected this in the thoughtful comments of the noble Baronesses. Since the election, the Government have already taken steps to strengthen the UK’s resilience. In July, we announced a review of national resilience and work on this is proceeding. Parliament will be updated on its conclusion in the spring. The Prime Minister has established a single Cabinet committee for resilience, chaired by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, which meets regularly to ensure clear and rigorous ministerial oversight. We have also adopted the 2023 UK Biological Security Strategy to protect the UK and our interests from significant biological risks.

There are also three new commitments in the Government’s response that I will highlight. As noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, we will be undertaking a pandemic exercise. We agree with the inquiry’s recommendation on this and will be undertaking a full national pandemic response exercise later this year. It will be the first of its kind in nearly a decade and will test the UK’s capabilities, plans, protocols and procedures in the event of another major pandemic.

Secondly, the inquiry found that the pandemic had a disproportionate impact on vulnerable groups and continues to affect many people in these communities, as highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. A new risk vulnerability tool, created by the Cabinet Office with the Office for National Statistics, will geographically map the population numbers of those who may be vulnerable in a crisis. It will do this by sharing data, including on age, disability, ethnicity or whether someone is receiving care. This should improve the Government’s understanding of the scale and location of disproportionately impacted populations ahead of and during crises, and enable targeted local support where required.

Finally, the Government have published an updated national risk register.

On the specific points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, on recommendation 10 for an independent statutory body, the Government agree with the principle of independent scrutiny but, given the importance of ensuring that this complements existing governance, it is right that we take the time to consider the best mechanism to deliver this. The Government also want to work with relevant stakeholders, including the devolved Governments, to ensure that any solution has broad support across the four nations. Since the pandemic, the Government have brought in more external advice and challenge across the resilience system.

On the noble Baroness’s point about the length of time taken by the Covid inquiry, I note that the terms of reference were set by the previous Government. The inquiry chair is very mindful of the need to make improvements as we go along, which is why a module-by-module approach has been adopted.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about masks. NHS organisations determine any decisions on mandating or enhancing the use of face masks to reduce transmission in their settings based on the local prevalence and risk assessments. UKHSA continues to recommend that organisations use effective mitigations, including hand hygiene, ventilation and face masks. Some NHS settings, including hospitals, have adopted this during the current winter.

On LRFs and vulnerable people, we will publish revised guidance in February to help LRFs identify and support people who are vulnerable in an emergency. Vulnerability is, and has to be, a key focus of the Cabinet Office-led review of our approach to resilience. We are engaging with charitable, faith and other relevant representative organisations to understand how the reduction and prevention of disproportionate impacts to at-risk groups and persons can be better considered in resilience planning and policy.

We will monitor the implementation of the commitments made in response to module 1. The noble Baroness, Lady Finn, asked about the House of Lords Statutory Inquiries Committee. I have read the report and found it very interesting. The Government are grateful to the committee for the report and its thoughtful consideration of the issues surrounding inquiries. We are carefully considering its recommendations and will publish our response soon.

The impact of the Covid-19 pandemic was unprecedented in modern memory. It ultimately caused the loss of far too many lives, and our thoughts are with those who lost loved ones. The Government also remain committed to engaging fully with the inquiry and await the recommendations of subsequent module reports as the noble and learned Baroness continues her important work.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my chairing of the National Preparedness Commission. I welcome the Government’s response to the module 1 report. The nation is on a journey, which was started by the previous Government; I am pleased that it has been continued by the present Government. In particular, I welcome the recognition that resilience and preparedness are an essential underpinning of the Government’s missions for change and everything else, and that those missions themselves feed back into preparedness and resilience. I specifically welcome the fact that the emergency alerts scheme—which, as noble Lords know, I have been championing for some time—is to be tested on a regular basis in addition to when it is used, if you like, in anger.

I was interested in the slight differences in emphasis on recommendation 10, but surely the important point is that, when the Government bring forward their review of resilience, they recognise that there needs to be a legal underpinning. In the same way that the Climate Change Act requires Government Ministers and government departments to work towards delivering net zero, there should be a similar sort of obligation requiring them to work towards resilience. Is that under active consideration? There is also the question of whether something like the Climate Change Committee—which, if you like, marks the Government’s homework—which would have a validity under those circumstances. The prime responsibility is to make sure that everybody recognises that they all have to contribute to this.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My noble friend makes a really important point about this being something that everybody has to contribute to. On his point about potential need for changes to the legislative framework, the current basis of legislation is the Civil Contingencies Act, and the next formal statutory review should be completed by 2027. However, in light of the recent inquiries around Covid and Grenfell, it is right that we look at the legislative framework and ensure that it meets the need of the evolving risk landscape and the growing expectations on the local tier in particular. We are considering the legislative framework as part of the resilience review, which, as noble Lords will be aware, will conclude in spring 2025.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, one of the most notable successes during the whole Covid pandemic was that of the Vaccine Taskforce, which achieved extraordinary things. Yet, in October 2022, it was effectively abandoned and its work absorbed into two different agencies. Does the Minister think that the Government would consider reinstituting it, as the need for vaccines appears to be still very pressing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The Vaccine Taskforce clearly contributed a huge amount, and we should be really proud of the innovation within the UK on this, including the development of some of the first vaccines. This is one of the points for future modules; the hearings on vaccines and therapeutics are currently taking place, so I do not want to stray too much into that. There is a point at which things need to shift from being emergency response to business as usual, but I note the noble Baroness’s concerns and will feed them back to relevant Ministers as part of their consideration.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does the Minister think that the inquiry will look closely at the question of collateral damage from the way that the whole Covid epidemic was dealt with? Let us face it: the economy was absolutely ruined by the flood of money that was put into it; the education of young children was gratuitously ignored, and the damages are still being felt today; and many people in the health system who were suffering from other complaints such as cancer, strokes and heart attacks have suffered dreadfully as a result of it. Are they going to deal with the collateral damage of the Covid epidemic? I think that this was much worse than dealing with the disease itself.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a point on collateral damage and the impact of the pandemic. I think a lot of us will recognise that, particularly the impact on children and young people, from those we have in our families and social context. The length of the inquiry was noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, and one of the reasons for its length is that it will go into quite a lot of detail to look at the impact on particular aspects of society beyond the initial response, the preparedness and the impact on individuals from the disease itself. The hearings on the impact on children and young people are due to take place in September later this year. Then, the hearings on module 9, which is the module after that one, are due to take place in November 2025. The wider impact on society is in module 10, towards the end of the consideration of the impact of Covid by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, and those hearings are currently expected to take place early next year.

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing this Statement to the House and, in so doing, I remind noble Lords of my own interests as chairman of the Office for Strategic Coordination of Health Research and as chairman of UK Biobank.

I would like to reflect a little bit further on recommendation 5, which deals with the question of research and data. The recovery trial conducted during Covid was essential in rapidly bringing forward treatments that were proven and could be applied quickly to the benefit of those hospitalised with Covid who were requiring treatment and intervention, and it had a major impact on saving lives. It was possible only because the Secretary of State had to issue a COPI notice to ensure that there was access to confidential patient data, which was essential in being able to undertake such research studies as the recovery study.

Is the Minister content that sufficient progress has been made in curating the totality of NHS data available and ensuring it is research ready, so that it could be applied effectively at scale and pace in any future pandemic? Can she confirm that the funding to support the capacity in infrastructure to undertake clinical research provided through the National Institute for Health and Care Research and the Medical Research Council will be protected in the forthcoming spending round to ensure that this vital research capacity is available at short notice if we have a future pandemic?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My noble friend Lord Livermore is here, so I am sure he heard the noble Lord’s point about the spending review. I will feed the noble Lord’s comments in.

In relation to data and future research, the Government agree with the inquiry that data and research are crucial to preparing for and responding to future pandemics. Clearly, it is a matter of when, not if. We have made significant progress on identifying the data across government. The National Situation Centre was established in 2021 and provides situational awareness for crisis response. As a resilience geek, I think that is a fascinating development that has contributed quite a lot. I note the noble Baroness’s previous role in it.

The UKHSA continues to develop and optimise data surveillance capabilities to keep ahead of the next threats across all population groups, society and public services, locally and globally. That is something on which we agree with the inquiry’s recommendation, and we hope the noble Lord will recognise that delivery has already started. I am happy to pick up any additional points with him directly.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, pointedly raised the issue of mental health and the response to it in this report. The report emphasises the need for more research and better data collection, as well as development. I wonder whether the noble Baroness is aware that perhaps the most important cognitive science going on in this country is in the medical research units, which are few in number, with several hundred specialised scientists—among the best in the world, including Nobel Prize winners—who currently are concerned that their budget is being not increased but reduced. There is a serious risk that we will lose those staff, who are the best in the world. If we are to improve mental health, it is important to understand the phenotype as well as the basic causes of these conditions. They are too important to be ignored any longer.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My noble friend makes an important point. This Government are taking the Mental Health Bill through your Lordships’ House at the moment. I will come back to him with a specific response on the points he raises.

Going back to my previous answer on future modules, I think that some of the issues around mental health and its importance in how we approach any future pandemic, and measures we might take, will continue to emerge through the inquiry’s hearings.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words and I am very glad that the Government are building on the work we did on resilience. I am particularly delighted by the plans for an emergency dummy run and for the extra testing of alerts. Those practical measures are really important.

The noble Baroness also mentioned data sharing. We discussed that yesterday at the Statistics Assembly, which was recommended by Professor Denise Lievesley, as she may know. It comes through strongly that we still have a lot more to do on data sharing.

Can the noble Baroness tell us how much the inquiry has cost? Obviously, there are two parts to that. There is the large cost of the team of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, and all her lawyers. There is also the cost of the civil servants engaged, and of the supporting witnesses. I am very interested to know what we have spent so far and the estimate of the cost for the future, at this difficult time when we are trying to bear down on expenditure everywhere. I see the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, in his seat.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The inquiry regularly publishes details of the money that has been spent. The figures I have relate to the inquiry costs. The noble Baroness is correct that the organisations involved, particularly those with core participant status, are also likely to be putting in additional resources. I will try to establish whether we have an estimate of that.

From its establishment up to September 2024, the inquiry spent £124.2 million. As I noted in my initial response to these questions, the inquiry chair is delivering on the terms of reference agreed with the previous Government. She is under a statutory obligation to avoid unnecessary costs in the inquiry’s work and has been clear that she intends to complete her work as quickly and efficiently as possible. The Government also regularly publish their costs in relation to the inquiry response, and I will write to the noble Baroness on that.

Today’s debate has shown how it is hard to constrain costs when you have demands for the inquiry to look at every single aspect. This was a whole-society crisis—a whole-society emergency. It touched every aspect of society. That is not to downplay the cost of the inquiry. I note that the House of Lords report that was referenced earlier highlighted costs as one of its concerns.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, does the Minister share my disappointment that the eloquent contribution from the Front Bench opposite by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, for whom I have the greatest respect, did not include any apologies, not so much for Ministers partying while others suffered but for the fact that some people made millions—well, billions—supplying materials and equipment that subsequently turned out to be unusable? Will the Minister give me an absolute assurance that she and all her colleagues will co-operate fully with the Covid corruption commissioner to make sure that all those who wrongly profited from the Covid pandemic are brought to book?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I am sure that all those who are asked will co-operate fully with the Covid corruption commissioner. I do not entirely share my noble friend’s view. I felt that the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, did acknowledge that there had been issues that led to some of the problems the UK faced during the Covid pandemic. My view is that all political parties have a role to work together to ensure that our resilience is as strong as it can be for the future. I hope that we continue to work on a cross-party basis to improve this country’s resilience, and that all noble Lords feed into the wider review on the UK’s resilience, which the Government are undertaking at the moment.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me if I did not hear properly, but I did not hear the answer to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, about research. We have the best people doing research—some of them Nobel Prize winners—and their budget has been cut, and if this is not addressed pretty quickly they may leave and do it somewhere else. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, is here and that he deals with budgets. What are we going to do about the possibility of some of our best researchers deciding to go somewhere else where there is money that will allow them to do their research?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

Clearly, we want to keep the best researchers in the country here. With the best will in the world, and with the great forbearance of the team that has been preparing my brief, I have gone back on an almost minute-by-minute basis over the last two days to get points added to it. I committed to my noble friend that I would write to him about the specific points he raised in his question. I will be honest: I do not have the answer to that specific question here today.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I return to the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, about the situation today of clinically vulnerable and otherwise vulnerable groups of people. I note that the Statement says that

“the inquiry found that the pandemic had a disproportionate impact on vulnerable groups and continues to affect many people in those communities”.

Given that, as the WHO says, the Covid pandemic is continuing and we have the threat of multiple other respiratory viruses—I note that H5N1 is an area of great concern—how would the Minister assess the Government’s current approach to clinically vulnerable and more broadly vulnerable groups? I am thinking particularly of their access to commercial and community spaces, and to schools that have clean air through either ventilation or filtration. Dame Kate Bingham from the Vaccine Taskforce told the inquiry this week that there is concern about the availability of prophylactic antibodies for people who cannot benefit in the same way as others from vaccines. Where are we now in making sure that treatment is available for those people?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

One of the things that the pandemic threw up as an issue that all responders had to deal with was the redefinition of who was vulnerable. It is something that LRF responders were very aware of at the time. The Government are committed to engaging widely with vulnerable communities and civil society to ensure that the factors that affect vulnerability, including health inequalities and socioeconomic inequalities, are much better understood as we review our approach to resilience. We are going to come back on the response that was in the review later in the spring. We recognise that vulnerability should be a key focus, and it is a key focus of the Cabinet Office-led review of our approach to resilience. In order to get the response on this right, we are engaging with charitable, faith and other representative organisations to understand how the reduction and prevention of disproportionate impact on at-risk groups and persons can be better considered in our planning and policy.