House of Lords: Reform
Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Judd
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I shall follow in a little while a certain amount of what the noble Lord, Lord Wills, has just said. His speech was most welcome.
This is the first time that I have spoken on the subject of Lords reform, having read all the Hansard debates for the past 20 years and thought about reform myself for 34 years. As others have done, I shall try to address the arguments against the Bill that I hear—there is not much point in doing anything else—and have heard over 20 years from so many Peers. In doing so, I welcome the draft Bill.
The first argument is, “Why change an institution that works perfectly well, particularly now when there is no clamour from the public and the country is in a dire economic situation?”. My answer is that this is an institution which works but which could work better. There will never be a clamour from the public for reform, unless the House votes in favour of the slaughter of the first-born, and there will never be a perfect time. My overriding principle is that if we are to have the power of legislating on behalf of the people, we should have a mandate from the people. It is as simple as that.
To those who say, “But what if there is a very low turnout because the public can’t be bothered to vote for an elected House of Lords?”, I say give them the chance. The House may not have any power over money Bills, and it still will not under this Bill, but it certainly has power over all kinds of other important decisions in legislation that affect people’s lives, from the creation of criminal offences to the organisation of the health service. Democracy must mean an elected legislature as well as the rule of law, a free press and other things. I am entirely with my noble friend Lord Marks here. To the charge that the institution is working well, I say that it could work better. An elected House would have Members with up-to-date knowledge and experience of what goes on in all regions of the country, who would put work in this House first before other commitments.
The next big argument is that not only do we not want a clone of the Commons but an elected House would want more powers vis-à-vis the Commons—exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Wills, talked about, and something that the Commons will not like. My answer to that is that if we get the Bill right, there is no reason why an elected second Chamber would be a carbon copy of the Commons, particularly if there were to be no re-election. I would even go so far as to suggest a higher age limit for candidates to this House—perhaps 35 or even 40. The voting system would be different from the Commons and elections would be staggered, so it would not be a clone of the Commons.
I am not naive enough to think that elected Members would not want more powers eventually. However, this House has quite a lot of powers already, despite what my noble friend Lord Steel says—it just does not use them very much. For example, it has unfettered power over most delegated legislation and over Bills that start in this House, which are not subject to the Parliament Acts. The threat of delay for a Bill that started its life in the Commons often results in important amendments being made to that Bill.
While on the subject of legislation, I must at this point say why I believe it is imperative that this House maintains its focus on legislation. Bills start in the Commons in a blaze of publicity, sometimes, but that soon disappears when the Bill goes to a Public Bill Committee. The press generally lose interest. Perhaps two months later the Bill has its Report and Third Reading, by which time the world, the press and the pressure groups have got to grips with it and it comes to this House with the major issues flagged up. The process also happens like that in reverse. For myself, I would have fewer general debates so that the House could concentrate on more pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny.
Before my time is up, I will lay a few more of my cards on the table. I favour a House of 450 rather than 300 to enable proper scrutiny of legislation and committee work. I also favour an 80 per cent elected and 20 per cent appointed House, which would do much to ensure the primacy of the all-elected House. That would also allow people of particular expertise and experience to be appointed, as long as they put their work in the Lords first to justify a salary that I presume everyone would have.
We should not give in to complacency by accepting the status quo. We are good at saying that this House is full of people with expertise and experience, as though these qualities trump those that elected politicians bring. The House is a political Chamber first and foremost and, welcome though a certain amount of expertise may be, it does not trump political judgment. This draft Bill is a start and it should be given a fair wind.
Lord Judd
Like many others in this House, I have immense respect and regard for the noble Baroness, but she slightly puzzles me on one point. She lays tremendous emphasis on her conviction about the need for Members of this House to have a mandate from the public. How can you have a mandate that is valid for 15 years?