Work Capability Assessments

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Tuesday 8th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

We relaunched Disability Confident last week and have had a very strong early response to it, with 2,500 employers signing up. Nissan is clearly a major employer in the north-east, and is making a significant investment that represents 7,000 jobs directly and many more in the supply chain. We will be talking to Nissan at the appropriate time on Disability Confident but it was not one of the topics that was discussed between the company and the Business Secretary.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

In the very welcome Green Paper, the number of extra staff who will be needed to carry through its laudable aims is striking. How will the Minister’s department ensure that there are enough trained work coaches, disability employment advisers, occupational health and Jobcentre Plus work psychologists and others to roll out this programme?

[Lord Freud]

We do not yet have a formalised programme. We are in the middle of a consultation, as the noble Baroness knows. We will take the results of the consultation very seriously, come to the appropriate conclusions and develop the policies and the means of implementation.

Improving Lives: Green Paper

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My right honourable friend in the other place, the Secretary of State, took some pleasure in quoting James Purnell from 2008 about the objectives here, illustrating that they are the same. We must acknowledge the continuity there has been in this difficult area and, in particular, give thanks to Dame Carol Black, who I have worked with now for many years and who has done an extraordinary job in trying to get these two networks together. We are building on many years of work but, like everyone else, I acknowledge that it is hard pounding—it takes a long time to get this right.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement and I completely understand that PIP is not part of this Green Paper, but the Minister’s department will have to work hard to restore people’s faith in the DWP’s consultation process because it comprehensively ignored the PIP mobility consultation, when more than 1,000 people said that we should not have what was subsequently put into law. I hope the Minister will agree to listen to the voices in the consultation process before there is legislation in this area.

[Lord Freud]

I know that the noble Baroness has very strong feelings about this. At her urging, I did make significant changes to the mobility measure. We did not have a clean measure before. We now have a precise measure with the 20 metres but we have it on the basis defined—safely, securely and regularly—which is something that she wanted, and have made it a much more measurable part of the PIP process. More people are receiving the top rate of PIP than receiving it were under DLA.

Unemployment: Disabled People

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Thursday 20th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

We made a comprehensive response to that interesting report from the Select Committee—but on the fundamental point that the noble Baroness makes, we all have to acknowledge that this is not easy to achieve. Getting more people with disabilities into work is a complicated thing to do, and through the Green Paper we are looking to combine very big and complicated organisations in the shape of the health and welfare systems and employers. You have to do it across all three to have a hope of bridging this gap.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

Up to 600 disabled people a week are losing their Motability cars because of the harsh PIP reassessment test. Does the Minister not agree that, as many of them are of working age, this will not contribute to halving the disability employment gap?

[Lord Freud]

I want to make it absolutely clear: PIP is a better benefit than the DLA it replaces. More people are receiving the top rates of PIP than they are of DLA: 24% in PIP and 15% in DLA. We have other ways of supporting people who are in work and who have some element of disability but are not eligible for PIP, and we are looking very hard at building up the Access to Work system, and to increasing the numbers who can take advantage of it.

Welfare

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The welfare reform programme is massive and we are pushing ahead with it. At its heart is universal credit, which is now moving at a pace. As I speak, more than 400,000 people have made an application for universal credit. We have a lot more to do, and we have a lot to do to implement the Bill that we have just passed. I have to disappoint the noble Lord by saying that there are no plans to reconsider the changes to ESA WRAG that we put through in that Bill.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, it is excellent news that the cuts announced in the Budget have been abandoned, but there is an existing cut that urgently needs to be reversed. It has had less attention but is badly affecting working-age claimants of PIP. I refer of course to the 20/50 metre issue in the “moving around” section of the PIP assessment, which is resulting in 400 to 500 Motability cars a week having to be handed back. Will the Minister ask the new Secretary of State to look at this again, not least because reversing the cut would save money by helping many disabled people to get into work and pay taxes?

[Lord Freud]

At one level, the new Secretary of State will clearly look at his whole portfolio with a critical eye. At another level, there may be changes in who gets the higher-rate mobility component to allow them to qualify for the Motability scheme. More people are on the higher rate under PIP than was the case under DLA. Indeed, more people with mental health issues are going on to PIP than would have received DLA. So, while there is a change in who gets the top-level mobility component and is therefore entitled to the Motability scheme, the absolute number qualifying for the Motability scheme is now moving up. As I said, there are now 24,000 more people on the Motability scheme than there were in 2013.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

To start with, roughly 40% of people knew about the discretionary housing payments—that figure has now increased to 66%, I think. So there is information out there. I thank the noble Baroness for making the point that the Supreme Court is looking at this area right at this moment—today; I am necessarily more circumscribed than normal in some of what I can say on this area in the next few minutes.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, have the Government thought of changing the law so that the partners or spouses of disabled people who are also their carers would be eligible to have the spare room—which is often needed for very bulky items such as hoists, wheelchairs and so on, as well as a bed—so that the carer, who is the husband, wife or family member, may have what one might call respite sleeping?

[Lord Freud]

The noble Baroness has put her finger on a Supreme Court issue, which I will just have to duck today.

Benefits: Sanctions

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Thursday 10th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

Jobcentre Plus people do have discretion. There is some, although less, discretion for Work Programme providers. We layer up that discretion with decisions from our decision-makers. It can then go to mandatory reconsideration and on to appeal, so there is a system to allow these things to be reviewed very flexibly. On the other point, the decision that older people should get free travel is one which was made by several Governments in the past.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, would the Minister consider asking the Social Security Advisory Committee to conduct a review of sanctions policy on ESA claimants, as they did for JSA claimants with the Oakley review?

[Lord Freud]

The reality is that the number of ESA claimants being sanctioned is very small—it is running at around 1%—and we look at those cases very carefully. We do not have any plans to look at that specifically at this stage, given that it has steadied out.

Personal Independence Payment

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they intend to take in response to the High Court judgment in R (on the application of Ms C and Mr W) v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and others [2015] EWHC 1607 (Admin) that long delays in Personal Independence Payments are unlawful.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)]

We are considering the terms of the judgment. We have achieved further reductions in average waiting times for an assessment, and they are now well within the Secretary of State’s target of 16 weeks.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. I accept that waiting times have gone right down, but the judge’s comments were pretty scathing about the introduction of PIP before all the systems were fully in place, which, she said, led to the implementation being “inefficient”. Is he confident that the full rollout of PIP to the bulk of DLA recipients, currently scheduled for October, is entirely safe?

[Lord Freud]

The judge found significant shortfalls in the introduction, as the noble Baroness said, and we agreed at the time that that was simply unacceptable. Noble Lords will probably remember that at the peak of the backlogs we were looking at waiting times of 30 weeks. That was in June; we set a target of less than 16 weeks, and we have now gone down to seven. On that basis we are confident about the full rollout, although we will and are doing it on a safe and controlled basis.

Disabled People: Mobility Benefits

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I emphasise that we are looking to create a thorough assessment under PIP that is balanced and also looks after some of the gaps in DLA, particularly concerning people with mental health problems, who have not done as well under DLA as they should do under PIP. With regard to the concerns about the transition, we are working with Motability to put together a package of £2,000 per person for those who move off the enhanced DLA but not into PIP so that they can purchase a second-hand car at the appropriate time.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

Will my noble friend tell me why his department took no notice of the responses to the 11th-hour consultation on the key moving-about descriptor in the PIP assessment? This descriptor enables a claimant to have enough points for the enhanced rate of mobility, which opens the door to the Motability car. Responses to the consultation were overwhelmingly against what the Government have proposed. I wonder why they bothered to have the consultation if they are not going to take any notice of it.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I emphasise that a lot of attention was paid to that consultation, as to all consultations. The issue that the department had to deal with was whether there was a better suggestion for drawing a line and, in practice, we could not find one within the consultation responses. I remind noble Lords that, as a result of activity in this Chamber, we toughened up the definition with,

“reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a timely manner”,

locked into how it operates.

Welfare: Personal Independence Payment

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Thursday 24th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I recognise the strength of feeling around retaining those words, and we are very actively looking at how to put them into the regulations in a way that works legally. I am planning to update Peers next week, on 31 January, on exactly where we have got to. We are looking to incorporate them in regulations and have a device for doing it in that way.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I am encouraged by my noble friend’s words. I am not an expert in anything much at all in this House but I am an expert in not being able to walk very well. I have form in this area because I have been through the DWP tribunal system, so this is one area that I know something about. Does my noble friend accept that if these words are not made statutory in some way or another, the number of appeals will rocket so much, and there will be such a period of uncertainty in so many ways for so many people, that it is not worth not putting in these words?

[Lord Freud]

My noble friend is, as always, much too modest about all her other capabilities. We are looking at this very actively and have clocked that there is great concern. It is not—and was not—our intention for people to be concerned about this particular area, and I hope that I will have a definitive approach to present to Peers in a week’s time, in plenty of time for the debate on the regulations, which will happen on 13 February.

Personal Independence Payment

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

On the noble Baroness’s key question, clearly there will be an appeals system, as there is for the WCA. The reason behind the 40% success rate for those who go to appeal—and that figure is roughly right—is usually that there is new information, either oral or written, which was not originally available. On that basis, I do not think it is fair to say that the original WCA and Atos were at fault. Clearly that is not an appropriate charge if one is looking at a different set of information. The real question is whether all the relevant information can be made available at an early stage. We are looking to make sure that there is not additional information which would mean a claimant going to appeal, as that is expensive. The question is whether we can ascertain that earlier in order to truncate the process.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord and his department for listening so extensively to arguments about the needs of disabled people. I am particularly pleased to find that there is a broadening of the definition of people who need to use aids and appliances. At one stage, it looked as though people who used aids and appliances would be thought to be okay and that they would not need any extra resources. Perhaps I may ask a question following on from the one posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, rather than continuing with the Minister’s theme. It concerns the treatment of medical reports. I am rather shocked to find that only a very small proportion of medical reports seem to be read, particularly at the first stage. Will the medical report of every claimant be sought and read by assessors; or will it still be the case that only a proportion of them are read; or will it be left to a decision-maker in the DWP to read them? I am particularly pleased that these regulations are not set in stone yet. Am I right in saying that they are still in draft?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s question about the medical reports, my understanding is that all information which is relevant is brought to the assessments, and that indeed people—supporters or family—can be brought forward to make the case and provide evidence. Again, I am not sure about the extent to which the fine detail of this issue is yet locked down. We are going through the details, and indeed on Monday we can start to discuss some of the fine points. The regulations have been laid in draft to be looked at by the various committees—the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and so on—and I think that that is the stage of the process that we are at. The noble Baroness is looking puzzled. If I am wrong on that, I shall make sure that that is corrected.

Benefit Cap (Housing Benefit) Regulations 2012

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I have a very simple question for my noble friend. I think that he probably gave us the answer during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, but I am afraid that I have forgotten what it was. Those in receipt of disability living allowance are going to be exempt from the cap. What about those who have appealed against their initial assessment? I declare an interest because, while I have never been on benefits, I have appealed against a decision, which I won, so I feel for those who may not have been successful the first time in their assessment but who have then appealed. There can be a few months between these two events and it would seem very unfortunate if someone or their family was forced to move only to find that they had won an appeal at the tribunal, with all the upheavals that that would amount to. Can my noble friend tell me about that situation?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as I would have expected, we have had a very knowledgeable debate, and a lot of very learned views, which I always listen to very closely, have been put forward. Clearly, I am also aware of the concerns that have been voiced in expressing the anxieties of a number of external organisations and stakeholders, some of which were referred to today. I will try to deal with as many of the questions as I possibly can, although there were a lot of them.

Let me start with support and exempt accommodation. That needs to be looked at in two periods. As I said, once universal credit comes in we are looking to keep the housing costs outside universal credit. I am looking to make some long-term arrangements for people in exempt accommodation. I am particularly concerned about people in refuges and, clearly, in hostels. I acknowledge absolutely the issue of support and exempt accommodation, which needs some quite sophisticated work. Meanwhile, we are writing very specific guidance, as these are the people for whom DHPs really are designed to prevent some effects that we do not want to see.

On temporary accommodation, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that is again an area where we will use DHP. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Best, did some sums, but clearly this will be a huge incentive to move people very quickly to something much more permanent rather than staying for the full year in temporary accommodation, which, as he rightly said, is very expensive. Under universal credit, there are likely to be changes. We are looking at how we deal with temporary accommodation—especially the division between the management costs to which he referred and the actual housing payment element. We are out to consultation on that area and there will be more developments.

On the mental health issue that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raised, those who have been assessed as being in the support group under ESA will be exempt, as will those receiving DLA and, later, PIP, so they will not be affected. The reason that PIP is not specifically mentioned in the regulations is that the PIP regulations have not yet been laid, so they will be consequential.

We do not have any information about other types of income that those households have—to answer a question asked by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Where they do not have any other income, a claim for DHP can be made. I have already detailed the funds available.

Several noble Lords asked about stories of local authorities sending people all over the country. I remind noble Lords that it has always been the case that London boroughs have sent people out of borough and, in some cases, many miles away. The reason is that people come from all over the country to London boroughs; it is not always appropriate to house them in those boroughs and they are sent out. There is an important distinction to be made between local people and those who arrive with a homeless obligation in a particular borough. It is important because new regulations come into force later this week, on 9 November.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, a fundamental principle of PIP is that support should be targeted at those who are most affected. I reassure my noble friend Lady Thomas that we will not be penalising people who use aids and appliances.

We know that many disabled people have a greater level of participation because of the help provided by aids, appliances and adaptations. If we were to disregard entirely the use of such aids, we would penalise individuals whose health condition or impairment could not be helped through their use. In those circumstances, the needs of those individuals would seem less of a priority, even though their levels of participation might be lower. Therefore, there is a balance to be struck here. I would be the first to admit that the use of aids, appliances and adaptations do not of themselves eliminate needs, barriers or costs. We accept and understand that, and that is why we are applying points in the assessment when such aids are in use. The number of points will vary depending on the aids in question and the levels of need.

With regard to the daily living component, the entitlement thresholds have been set at such a level that an individual who requires aids to carry out a number of activities may receive the component at the standard rate. I am pleased to reconfirm to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, that with the mobility component, individuals who use aids and appliances to move short distances can receive the standard rate, while someone who needs to use a wheelchair to do so—whether it is a manual or an electric one—will receive the enhanced rate. In that sense, it is a different assessment and it does things differently from the WCA for ESA. The valuable point has been made tonight that people do not understand that, so clearly we need to put across information about it.

As I informed noble Lords in Committee, the approach that we wish to adopt for PIP is the same in this area as that currently used within DLA. We take into account aids that are currently used by individuals as well as those which might reasonably be expected to be used. Let me be precise—I mean those that are easily and cheaply available. We will not, for example, say that an individual’s needs would not be present if they simply bought themselves a wheelchair, a stairlift, or a walk-in shower. That would not be reasonable, and we will have guidance available to make sure that claimants are treated consistently.

I will, however, be delighted to host a meeting with my noble friend, and any group she wishes to bring. Clearly, there is a big consultation exercise going on in precisely this area. I know this is an area in which she has great interest, and I will be very pleased to host that meeting. I urge her to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for agreeing to such a meeting, and for clarifying that there is a great difference between the assessment for the work capability assessment and PIP. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, never have I minded less about changing my original speech so extensively, because the Government have conceded on the qualifying period for PIP being brought back to three months from six months. I am grateful to the Minister for listening to the concerns expressed by many disabled people and the organisations that support them about the hardship that such a long qualifying period could cause. The reasons for changing the time back to three months are compelling, particularly in relation to those who have sudden onset conditions or a serious accident, and there is now no need to rehearse the arguments yet again. I beg to move.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords—

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, I shall leap straight in on the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on the assessment phase. What I was really alluding to was the upcoming sickness absence review, which is an important review of how we treat sickness absence. One of the things it has looked at is the interrelationship between sickness absence periods and the ESA regime. Basically the review sees no real reason for the assessment phase. As we look at this we must ask: are we structuring ESA and sickness absence so that it is a vulnerable or difficult process? I am sympathetic to my noble friend when he says that there might be a way through this. I want noble Lords to be aware that huge weaknesses have been found. We are pushing people through a process that puts them in limbo for a long period of 92 days or more. The sickness absence review states that that is deeply unsatisfactory, and I suspect that a lot of noble Lords in this Chamber who understand the system also believe that. In that area, I am not sure that this is genuinely the direction in which I want to go because I am not sure that it is something we want to maintain.

Moving on from that, let me set out some of the technicalities of the assessment phase. It usually ends after 13 weeks unless by that point there has not yet been a WCA determination. If a WCA has not been carried out by the 14th week, the assessment phase ends when a determination about limited capability for work has been made. So if the claimant’s assessment phase lasts longer than 13 weeks and they are found to have limited capability for work or work-related activity, the payment of additional components is then backdated. That is the existing system, which I am not that happy with. The effect would be to exclude it in terms of counting to the 365 days, or at least the 730 days depending on where we are, but in practice it does not always happen within 13 weeks and we have a lot of disparity of treatment. Even if we were to stay with the regime, it would be a pretty messy system.

I know that noble Lords hate me when I go through figures, but let me give some—I shall do my best because these figures have been running around. Purely on this basis, there is a cost of an extra £430 million cumulative to 2016-17 over the five-year period. I shall try to make a quick off-the-cuff assessment of how much extra it is when we look at it on top of the two years, and it is not actually a hugely different sum. It is £200 million on the SR period and £400 million on the total period of five years. I know that noble Lords feel that hundreds of millions are easily obtainable, but it is not an insignificant amount of money.

Moving on to Amendment 40B, the effect of this amendment would be that for existing ESA claimants, the one-year time limit would be calculated from the date the clause is commenced, and none of the time already spent on ESA would count towards the 365-day total entitlement. I want to have a word about retrospection. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, used the word slightly freely and in fact slightly aggressively. I was upset but not ashamed. I can understand that noble Lords are unhappy that we are taking account of days before the clause is brought into account, but this is about the question of whether noble Lords feel that this is the right approach; it is not about retrospection. Retrospection involves interfering with a claimant’s past entitlement and we are not doing that with this measure.

It is worth explaining what retrospection of time limiting would involve if we were to do it, which we will not. It would involve interfering with past entitlement to ESA. An example would be: at the date we commence the time-limiting provisions, if a claimant who had been receiving contributory ESA in the WRAG for 18 months, it would be retrospective if we demanded repayment of the extra six months of benefit he had already received because that would interfere with the claimant’s past entitlement. We absolutely are not doing anything which is retrospective in that sense. We are redefining the terms on which claimants are entitled to ESA in the future.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, perhaps I may make a small point. Were claimants who were receiving ESA last April told by the benefits office or whoever pays their benefit that it might be subject to this one-year cut-off? I ask this because the Government had already announced it in their comprehensive spending review. Were claimants warned then? I know that they were sent a letter in September saying that their claim was likely to end this April if it had started in the previous April. However, were they warned in April 2011?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it was a reasonably well publicised announcement by the Chancellor. There was no formal process of warning afterwards. That process began, as my noble friend points out, in September. How much warning people had is an issue, but the essential fact is that we are redefining the terms for entitlement to ESA. That happens quite a lot. Examples of future changes to entitlement include, among others, changing the descriptors to the work capability assessment.

I understand noble Lords having concerns about the fairness of the measure. Again, fairness is a matter of achieving a balance in our policy, so that as many claimants as possible who are in the WRAG are entitled to ESA for the same period.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked for figures. We expect that, by April 2012, around 100,000 people will have been receiving contributory ESA and been members of the WRAG for more than 12 months. If the amendment were accepted, we would have another substantial decrease in our savings forecast and a real problem.

Amendment 41A would enable claimants to start a fresh 365-day period if they moved from the support group back to the WRAG—I am not sure whether we are now talking about 365 days or 730 days, so let us leave that on one side for a minute. In practice, for those claimants moving between the two groups regularly—it is funny how, when things are encouraged financially, regularity seems to increase—the amendment would be likely to mean that they would be able to remain on contributory ESA indefinitely.

We have always made it clear that, when addressing claimants in the WRAG, our aim is for as many people as possible to receive contributory ESA for the same period. This will be a period of 365 days on our original formulation and at least 730 days on the basis of the amendment that passed. Restarting that period each time a claimant moved from the support group to the WRAG would lead to inconsistent periods on benefit for claimants.

I accept the amendment that has just gone through, but, on the basis of the period—whether one year or at least 730 days—we do not think that we need to make any of these additional changes, particularly given their high cost in the current fiscal climate. I urge noble Lords not to press these three amendments. We do not consider them consequential upon each other.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

Will the Minister also respond to my question, when I asked whether the sentence:

“Decision Makers will change erroneous decisions rather than send them to a Tribunal”

is a change from the present system?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, taking those questions in the order that I fancy, let me start with the noble Lord, Lord Low. If I did not make it unequivocally clear, let me do so: where the written evidence is unequivocal, we will take decisions on the written evidence and continue to do so. I hope that that is absolutely clear, and I am sorry that I did not say that with enough emphasis.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, the National Autistic Society is undertaking some extremely good initiatives. I was just considering one in Northern Ireland with Jobcentre Plus. To be honest, I was not aware of that particular one mentioned by the noble Lord, but that is exactly the kind of initiative that we will want to incorporate as we build the programme. We understand that the issue of autism is important.

My noble friend Lady Thomas refers to how the WCA works, rather than how the PIP might work, because we have not completely developed it. The best I can do on that issue is to write to her setting out the position precisely. I hope that that is satisfactory for her.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

That will be helpful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

Clearly, one has to be absolutely sympathetic to this point. As we all know, levels of equipment can vary hugely. However, the point on this particular issue is that we will look at only readily available, cheap aids and appliances, which can be reasonably used. That will be the definition and it is the definition used today in DLA, so we are effectively porting that approach over. I think I have already asked for the amendment to be withdrawn.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I think that proves my point about the confusion over this issue. This has been an extremely illuminating debate. I am very grateful to my fellow Peers along this Bench. We have heard about special shoes, small chair-lifts for small chairs, stair lifts, carpets, lifts in the House of Lords, cushions and so on. I fear that the confusion in my mind over how aids and appliances will be taken into consideration has not been entirely removed. I shall read what the Minister said with care. If I were younger, I would go to my assessment having borrowed the electric wheelchair of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. That would be the answer. I could cross my fingers behind my back and say that it was mine, and I would then get all the points that I needed. There are some real problems.

However, I end on a note that the Minister might enjoy. The prize for the best disabled lavatory that I have ever come across goes to one in the Department for Work and Pensions in Caxton House. It should be open to the public for general inspection. I hope my noble friend will pay it an official visit at his convenience. It has an electric control that you press, which means that it goes up and down without any effort on the part of the user. As an example of a brilliant adaptation, it takes the top prize. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I will look at it, but I am not sure I need to study it very hard. As I understand it, the fear of that individual is that if they earn too much money they get taken off their benefit structure entirely. Because they are earning too much, they are outside the disability benefit structure and they must therefore get on another one and they then have a terrible problem. That does not apply under the universal credit. The worst that could happen is that the universal credit goes down in the period, reflecting the emolument, but they are better off overall. That acute fear of being left stranded goes. In that particular case, and many others like it, the desperate cliff-edge position which currently exists is not there under universal credit.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his support, as does my noble friend Lady Wilkins. I would like to take up my noble friend’s offer of a meeting before the Bill reaches the next stage, because we were told specifically by the officials of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, when he was Minister, that they could not extend this to bona fide NHS research—nothing to do with commercial interests—unless there was a peg in legislation on which to hang the regulations. I therefore do not accept my noble friend’s statement that everything can be done by regulations, because we found that this particular matter could not be done. We are not talking about people who can get a job; we are talking about severely disabled people, who are a million miles from the job market, but they have specific conditions which are needed for vital research. I hope this can be sorted out before the Bill goes any further. We need this peg, and it is not too late to put it in this Bill. I will take up the offer of a meeting, which I have done on many occasions when I have withdrawn this sort of amendment—and, of course, it finally bore fruit.

[Lord Freud]

We do not need a legislative peg in primary legislation to make changes here. That was a reference to NHS legislation. How we define and work through the different types of income is something which we are going to do in regulation. I can assure my noble friend that, although this is something which is slightly complicated to do, it does not have the desperate urgency that requires it to be done in the next couple of weeks.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

I am caught between two pieces of advice: one is that we do need legislation and one is that we do not. I am somewhat conflicted, and I would like to get this sorted out before Third Reading. We have been told that for the rules that I read out from the statutory instrument, there was a peg on which to hang it, and that is why they were there. We were told that because there is nothing for NHS research we could not extend it. I shall withdraw the amendment now, but hope that we can resolve this before Third Reading, if not Report.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Could the noble Lord arrange to send us copies of the earlier advice, because there is some confusion and I am not clear in my mind?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I will have an early meeting with my noble friend on this, and we will take it from there. Subject to that meeting, I will provide that particular advice, otherwise we may go round the houses on this very technical matter. I hope it is one we can resolve pretty fast, with a letter.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Monday 24th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

A long time ago, during the last welfare reform Bill, when the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was the Minister, I moved an amendment in favour of free school meals full stop. I think it was the highest kite I have ever flown. I was very much in favour of the benefits that it had. One of them is the startling fact that research has borne out that children concentrate far more in the afternoon if they have a good hot meal inside them, which may be the only meal of the day. This is an extremely important issue.

The other day I discovered that some boroughs are giving children free school meals in primary schools and I think that Suffolk is one of them, so good for it. I shall be interested to hear the Minister's reply.

[Lord Freud]

These amendments would provide a cash amount for school meals and health costs within the universal credit award as opposed to the current system of passported benefits, which are often given as a benefit in kind. Clearly, I understand that to be by way of a probe rather than a specific direction. This is a very complex area and I think all of us in this Committee Room have agreed today what these problems are. Defining entitlement to passported benefits is the responsibility of several government departments and the devolved Administrations. Entitlement and the value of benefits can vary by county or by area. My department is taking a keen interest in the work under way to consider passported benefits across the piece.

Jobseeker’s Allowance (Work Experience) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I shall add one or two comments. I, too, very much welcome these regulations. I was interested that the Minister said that they were aimed primarily at 18 to 21 year-olds. That presumably means that the Jobcentre Plus advisers have some discretion and that the only thing that is absolutely laid down is that the person must be over 18. Will that be known by all the Jobcentre Plus advisers so that they do not prevent anyone from getting a work experience placement if they are, say, 25? Someone may have had a very chequered career and may have been in and out of work; they might quite like to be involved in this scheme but may be over 21. Can the Minister clarify that? Furthermore, why did the Minister alight on the time span of two months? I would rather like one of these work experience people myself, but I suppose that the House of Lords is not an employer. It is a pity—maybe we should be.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we have had an interesting debate and, as usual, some snappy questions. One of the things that this short debate has clearly demonstrated is the concern that we all share for the plight of young unemployed people. Their plight is why it is so important to develop this scheme and other schemes like it. I shall try to work through some of the questions.

I start by making the point that we have effectively built something of a Catch-22 for young people in that employers require work experience, or are much more comfortable with people who have demonstrated an ability to hold down some good work experience, whereas the support system for poorer youngsters on JSA has been loath to let them do it. The previous Administration carried out some experiments and programmes on this, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, pointed out, and I fully and absolutely acknowledge that we are building on previous experience. The noble Lord referred to the contract with Reed. I was interested to read the report on the Reed work experience and some of the interesting lessons there. One of the most interesting lessons was that the switch from going off JSA, which was a kind of bureaucratic requirement, on to a training allowance led to the loss of many youngsters, some simply because they could not transfer smoothly. The other factor that made that programme improvable—I will express it like that in the interest of consensus—is that the youngsters lost the link with jobseeking in that period. It was called a training allowance but they did not feel that they were still linked in. They lost the link with their Jobcentre Plus adviser.

This is a very different approach, which we incorporate within the mainstream JSA offer. The question “Why mandation?” was asked. I think that this is one of the things that starts to pull it together. We are saying to people, “You remain on the conditionality that JSA requires—you have to go on job searching. We will be more flexible about how you do that, working with the employers, but mandation remains in your JSA requirement and that carries forward into your work experience. Also”—as the noble Lord, Lord German, pointed out—“we have balanced it so that you have a week to work out whether this is really completely intolerable, and you can get out without a sanction. But once you have committed, you are like any other employee and you cannot bunk off without some repercussions”. In that way, the JCP regime is replicating what an ordinary employer would do to an ordinary employee where there is a set of mutual obligations. We cannot have a situation where employers, for whom we will want to make a lot of effort to ensure that this work experience is of great value, feel that they waste those resources because somebody can just stop turning up. That is the reasoning behind that.

Benefits

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am obviously disturbed to hear what the right reverend Prelate has told us about this case. When we find cases and I am alerted to them, we react rapidly to make sure that the individual case is sorted out. If he lets me have the details, I will deal with it.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether Jobcentre Plus decision-makers in particular will have extra training following the Harrington review so that they can take into account what the review said about those with mental health problems and fluctuating conditions?

[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords. One of Professor Harrington’s main recommendations is to put more power back in the hands of the decision-makers in Jobcentre Plus. Clearly, we will be looking to make sure that they exercise that power effectively, particularly because we need to reduce the number of appeals to tribunals. We need to get the decision right first time.

Disabled People

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the Government’s strategy is to go down the path of personalisation of services, on which we clearly look to local authorities to take the lead. As the noble Lord pointed out, we have made £2 billion extra available. In practice, local authorities have much more than that available and it is up to them to make sure that the funds go to those with disabilities in the most effective and efficient way.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, further to the first reply that my noble friend gave to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, will the Government also take into consideration disabled children in residential schools whose parents have a car on the Motability scheme and who, given the need to look after their children in the school holidays, need the higher-rate mobility allowance? I quite take my noble friend’s point that there is a public consultation on the disability living allowance—I declare an interest in that I have received the consultation, which is very welcome—but this problem must not be overlooked.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I reassure my noble friend that there is a requirement for residential care homes, children’s homes and educational establishments such as special schools to meet children’s relevant needs, including their mobility needs.

Welfare Reform

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Thursday 11th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, for that question. We have an integrated strategy. Measures in the CSR will ensure that mentoring takes place; there is also the new enterprise allowance and so on. We are building those packages and will announce details in due course. Our main change to Access to Work is to make sure that when someone goes for a job they have the funding required. No one will take someone if they do not know whether they will receive Access to Work. That is the main way in which we are refocusing Access to Work, which we think is a good programme.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I, too, warmly welcome my noble friend’s repeated Statement today. I have one very simple, fundamental question to which I do not know the answer. How much discretion will decision-makers at Jobcentre Plus have about the sorts of work that jobseekers will be compelled to take? We hear that the conditionality rules will be tougher than those set by the previous Government. Let us suppose that a graduate or a highly qualified person can find only a cleaning job. Will they be compelled to take it and does the decision-maker have any discretion about that?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, who has been incredibly involved and interested in the development of the universal credit. Jobcentre Plus is structured in such a way that there is a very light touch in the early months which becomes gradually firmer and starts being a heavy hand on the shoulder after six months. There is a reality period. Most people look after themselves and find a job, but some need to have the reality of their position in the marketplace brought home to them, so that they match what work they can realistically expect to do with what is out there. You are much better off being in work and looking for a better job from an in-work position than from an ever longer period of inactivity.

Employment and Support Allowance (Transitional Provisions, Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit) (Existing Awards) Regulations 2010

Debate between Baroness Thomas of Winchester and Lord Freud

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I think that it has been valuable and I particularly welcome my noble friend Lord German to the DWP brief. He knows that the Chamber is not as full as it is on some matters it deals with, but all the better for that.

I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for explaining that we are in an Alice-through-the-looking-glass situation: my noble friend was the architect of his Government’s plans and now everything is reversed. This debate has brought out some of the real problems. We understand that the medical reports are not disease-specific, as it were; they look at what the person can do rather than what he cannot do.

However, the other side of the coin is the fact that there are an enormous number of appeals and a lot of them are successful, so something is going wrong. I was glad to hear him mention Professor Harrington's review—I remember that I have read it before. Presumably, if he suggests changes to the work capability assessment, that will be factored into my noble friend’s plans for legislation later in the year. Will it be dealt with then?

[Lord Freud]

I am pleased to clarify. Clearly, we will have Professor Harrington’s report later in the year. Timing depends on the exact nature of any recommendations that he may make. Obviously, we would like as many of those recommendations to be included as we can.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

I was interested when the Minister said that the programme would be a challenge for Jobcentre Plus offices. That is probably the understatement of the year. I was a bit worried when he said that they will move cases around the network. I hope that that will not be done quite as it sounds—it sounds a rather curious thing to do—and that there will be a lot of telephone recruitment. I hope that it will all work.

I end by saying that my noble friend Lord German had the right phrase when he said, “It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it”. That should be applied to the regulations. I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate; I look forward to the Minister’s reply by letter, if he has not been able to answer some of the questions.