Movement of Goods (Northern Ireland to Great Britain) (Animals, Feed and Food, Plant Health etc.) (Transitory Provision and Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2024

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

The Windsor Framework—the protocol—has done just that. It is totally unacceptable to those of your Lordships who are friends of the unionist community in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister again for introducing these regulations and for the extremely constructive way in which she has taken a personal interest in trying to find pragmatic solutions to this undoubtedly very complex set of issues.

It is clear from the several debates we have had on the Windsor Framework regulations, today and previously, that they provoke strong emotions and reactions from the noble Lords of the DUP and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. However, it is true that in Northern Ireland there are also different points of view on these matters, which we heard very clearly, eloquently and constructively expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie.

I will not repeat the Brexit arguments that I have made previously, but it is none the less true that we would not be debating these issues if we were still in the European Union or if the whole of the United Kingdom had remained in the EU single market. There are genuine and legitimate issues about how to carry out parliamentary scrutiny of EU single market regulations when we no longer have representation in EU institutions and have to be a rule-taker without a say in the process. I have suggested previously that it would be useful for the whole House to have a wider debate, at some point soon, on our relations with the EU and on the much talked about reset with the EU and what it would look like in reality. It would also be useful to have a debate on the approach towards parliamentary oversight of decisions and regulations adopted by the EU and their impact on UK businesses in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

On the specifics of the regulations we are debating this evening, from these Benches we broadly welcome them as a further pragmatic and temporary step to try to make this complex arrangement work slightly more effectively. As these regulations apply only to sanitary and phytosanitary controls on European Union and rest-of-world goods entering Great Britain from Northern Ireland, we believe that they sharpen the competitive advantage of Northern Ireland traders moving qualifying Northern Ireland goods.

I have three questions. The first is the same as the one the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, asked. Can the Minister say when this long-term approach to these issues is likely to be published and adopted? As she said in her introduction, these temporary measures will apply only until July next year. Can she say how MPs, noble Lords and all Northern Ireland political parties and businesses will be consulted in this process?

My second question is the same as the one the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked. Can the Minister say a little more about progress or otherwise on an SPS and veterinary agreement? It is clearly for the new Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in your Lordships’ House to decide its own programme, but it would be very useful if it were to look at some of these issues when it starts work next year.

My third and final question is something I ask every time. Can the Minister explain a little more about how these regulations will be enforced and policed in reality? Other noble Lords have raised this in a different way. I conclude by thanking her once again, and I look forward to hearing her responses.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, for bringing this regret amendment to the House. I listened to some very powerful speeches by him and his noble friends on both sides of the House.

His Majesty’s loyal Opposition have some significant doubts and concerns about these regulations, given the impact they may have on goods moving from Northern Ireland into Great Britain, but we will not oppose them. We welcome that some goods will continue to have unfettered access to Great Britain, but we are concerned about the non-qualifying goods and the effect this will have on businesses that trade across the Irish Sea.

While the Windsor Framework was a significant improvement on the original protocol, that is not to say that improvements cannot be made wherever necessary. The Opposition will continue to scrutinise the secondary legislation and assess its impact. Can the Minister confirm to the House that the Government will keep these regulations under review and take any action necessary to lighten the burden on businesses trading across the Irish Sea where possible?

The businesses affected by these regulations may need extra support. Can the Minister outline the steps that the Government are taking to give businesses in Northern Ireland the support they need? Indeed, what assessment have the Government made of the effect of these changes on businesses in Great Britain trading with Northern Ireland? How will the Government support that smooth trade?

Goods from Northern Ireland must be traded as freely as possible, and they should not be at an unfair disadvantage. That was at the core of our work when we were in government. We all know that the Windsor Framework was the result of a painstaking negotiation with the EU, but the Government should do everything they can to ensure Northern Ireland’s smooth and unfettered access to the UK internal market. As my honourable friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar said in the other place:

“The Windsor framework, I believe, is better than the protocol. ‘Safeguarding the Union’ is better than the Windsor framework, but that does not mean that further progress is not possible”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/12/24; col. 627.]


Does the Minister agree with that assessment?

We look forward to scrutinising the Government’s approach to Northern Ireland policy further, and to the Minister addressing our concerns about smooth trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and about upholding the importance of biosecurity—biosecurity not just in GB but Northern Ireland for goods that stop there. We will press the Government to bring forward plans to encourage businesses to trade across the sea so that we all benefit across the whole of our United Kingdom.

Windsor Framework (Non-Commercial Movement of Pet Animals) Regulations 2024

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, it will hardly come as a surprise to anyone that I will support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, as will my colleagues. In the debate on these regulations in another place, the Minister’s main defence was that they should be celebrated as an achievement because they represented an advance on what went before. There are two huge problems with that argument, as I see it, and I implore the Minister to be more sensitive to Northern Ireland—somehow, I think she will be—than the Minister in the other place was.

In the first instance, if these regulations were an improvement on what went before, they would be wholly unacceptable, because they are still a function of EU regulation 1231, which has already been mentioned tonight by others. It allows our country to be divided in two and hands the governance of that division, in the final analysis, to the European Union. In the second instance, they are not an improvement on what has gone before but a deterioration, because the marker against which the Government suggest that an improvement is being made is entirely theoretical, because the division to which they allude was never ever accommodated.

Let us, therefore, not play with words: these regulations confront us with a new level of division within ourselves from March 2025. I also appeal to the Minister not to confuse the issue by saying that Northern Ireland has always been treated differently for SPS purposes. There is a distinction, in my view anyway, between internal SPS checks within a sovereign country, on one hand, and the imposition of an international plant health border—I cannot think of any other way to say it—along with an international customs border, on the other, for the purpose of dividing our country into two. This is why people travelling from England to Northern Ireland have never before had to travel with a pet passport, border checks and the possibility of having their dogs remitted to an SPS facility. It is incredible—unbelievable.

I also appeal to the Minister not to tell us in Northern Ireland that we have nothing to worry about because the difficulties face those moving from GB to Northern Ireland and not the other way around. In the first instance, it is not correct that there are no burdens imposed on the movement of pets from Northern Ireland to GB. EU regulation 1231 makes it clear that pets must be microchipped, which is currently common only for dogs. In the second instance, however, and far more importantly, people who state that we have nothing to worry about because the burden is on east-west movements completely misjudge the situation and completely misunderstand us. Northern Ireland is the smallest part of the United Kingdom. If the Government impose any obstacles on people moving from GB to Northern Ireland, that necessarily makes the people of Northern Ireland feel more isolated and cut off, which is completely unacceptable.

The regulations confront us with exactly the same difficulty we confronted when looking at the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme: Plant and Animal Health) (Amendment etc.) Regulations 2024 in October. On that occasion we were forced to recognise that it was impossible to scrutinise the regulations without also scrutinising EU regulation 2023/1231, especially Articles 4 and 12. On this occasion, we have to look especially at Articles 12 and 14 of regulation 1231, as well as the regulations immediately before us.

In coming to today’s debate we must first remind ourselves of the title of EU regulation 1231:

“Regulation (EU) 2023/1231 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 14 June 2023 on specific rules relating to the entry into Northern Ireland from other parts of the United Kingdom of certain consignments of retail goods, plants for planting, seed potatoes, machinery and certain vehicles operated for agricultural or forestry purposes, as well as non-commercial movements of certain pet animals into Northern Ireland”.


This is a piece of legislation that relates not just to Northern Ireland but to the whole United Kingdom and it divides our country by an international border imposed by and governed by the EU.

Article 12 requires that if you wish to travel from Great Britain to see family in Northern Ireland with your pet dog, you can do so only if, first, you acquire a pet travel document validating that your pet is micro- chipped. Secondly, you have to sign a form renouncing your right to travel with your pet into the Republic of Ireland. Thirdly, your pet and its papers have to be checked on moving from GB to Northern Ireland—and you do so uncertainly, because you know that both you and your pet can be prevented from proceeding freely and may be sent to an SPS facility and not allowed to leave unless and until permission to do so is granted. In other words, you are made to feel like you are visiting a foreign country, and we are made to feel like we are foreigners.

In the last debate, the Minister sought to defend the imposition of EU regulation 1231, by which the EU not only imposes but asserts its sovereign right to govern the border in a way that is completely contrary to international law. The UN Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations does not tolerate any action such as that effected by the Windsor Framework and EU regulation 1231. It states that:

“Every State shall refrain from any action aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity of any other State or country”.


How can we accommodate legislation, such as the Windsor Framework, that violates international law? No country can accommodate its division into two, especially when this also results in the disenfranchisement of 1.9 million people and the creation of a colony in 2024. The Government can kid themselves that all is well and that we can all live with this, but no country with an ounce of self-respect or commitment to its citizens, and any hope of a future, can accommodate this. They must wake up and adopt the EU (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill that is to have its Second Reading on 6 December in another place.

As my noble friend Lord McCrea has ably stated, we do not do majoritarianism in Northern Ireland. We have not been doing it for 50 years but, all of a sudden, in this instance, it is the acceptable way. If there was to be majority rule on other things in Northern Ireland, I suspect that those who are in favour of this regulation would be the first on their feet to say, “This is not the way we do things”. This is not the way it is done in Northern Ireland and the pending vote, which the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, has already referred to, is a departure from those who gave us the Belfast agreement.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction to these regulations, and for all the hard work she is doing to try to resolve the extremely difficult issues, which have been raised so eloquently by so many noble Lords.

I have three brief points. Like the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for the opportunity to discuss these issues. However, I am not going to disappoint her, and I am going to say what she predicted I would. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and, as I have said on several occasions during these debates, I am afraid that we are in this situation because of the type of hard Brexit that the previous Government chose to adopt, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, eloquently said when he read out Boris Johnson’s memo.

In the rush to get Brexit done, incompatible promises were made in haste, which means that measures such as these regulations will keep on being introduced in order to make the system work. None the less, these Benches welcome these regulations because we believe they are a significant improvement on their previous requirement, as set out in the Northern Ireland protocol. They are a move towards a common-sense approach to these matters, allowing maximum freedom for pets between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, while recognising the need to maintain high biodiversity standards.

It is particularly welcome that the pet travel document will be valid for the lifetime of a pet, which I believe—indeed, I hope—will minimise the need for bureaucracy. However, I would like to follow the question asked by noble Lords from the DUP, although I will ask it in a slightly different way. It is about how these regulations will be enforced in practice. As I understand it, the pet owner will be obliged to confirm that the pet which has travelled from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will not then subsequently move to Ireland, and therefore the EU. However, given that there is no border on the island of Ireland, how will these provisions be checked and enforced in reality?

My second question is really one of curiosity: why are these regulations just limited to dogs, cats and ferrets? What happens to pets being transported from Great Britain to Northern Ireland that are not currently covered by these three categories? Perhaps there is a logical reason for it, but I am not quite sure what it is.

Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations 2023

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, this has been an at times impassioned debate and we have heard comprehensively, I think it fair to say, from the DUP and one point of view. I listened carefully to the many points made by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and his colleagues. While I have some genuine sympathy with many of his concerns, I none the less think that the Windsor Framework, as the recent report from the Northern Ireland Protocol Sub-Committee said, marks a significant step forward and is an improvement on what went before. It is far from perfect, but, as we have said many times from these Benches, these proposals continue to stem from incompatible promises that were made to the people of Northern Ireland as a result of Brexit.

There is also little doubt that there is a case for further pragmatic changes to be made in future, based on the realities of how these mechanisms work in practice for the people and businesses of Northern Ireland. Just so that I do not disappoint the noble Lord, Lord McCrae, I will give my statutory plea to noble Lords from the DUP: I genuinely believe that their case would be much more powerfully heard if there were a return to a functioning Executive and Assembly in Northern Ireland. Indeed, as Sir Jeffrey Donaldson said at the DUP conference last weekend:

“Having no say in our future will not be a recipe for success … having local institutions that succeed in delivering for everyone in Northern Ireland is an essential element of our case”.


I agree with that.

I will make a few brief comments on the regulations before us. It is deeply to be regretted that once again, an impact assessment has not been published. I agree with the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report, which said that, at the very least,

“basic information on the expected financial impact on businesses and the public purse should have been included in the explanatory memorandum”.

Even at this late stage, can the Minister commit to producing an assessment of the impact on businesses, so that we can have debates based on fact rather than anecdote? It is surely in the Government’s own interest to do so.

Like noble Lords from the DUP, I too question the decision to publish these regulations during the Summer Recess. Publishing them at a time when effective parliamentary scrutiny was not possible inevitably adds to our sense of distrust. Given that the Windsor Framework was agreed in February this year, it was surely possible to publish them before the Summer Recess. I seek reassurances from the Minister that the Government are confident that the temporary SPS infrastructure will be fit for purpose, given that the permanent infrastructure will not be ready until July 2025, as several noble Lords from the DUP said.

The Explanatory Memorandum states that the Government

“has considered and reflected engagement with interested stakeholders”.

Is it possible to publish a list of the people who were consulted? I remain convinced that transparency helps to generate the atmosphere of trust that has been so lacking during this whole process.

In conclusion, we on these Benches support the Windsor Framework and, by extension, the regulations we are debating today. However, I do understand many of the criticisms of the Government and the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, about the lack of transparency and consultation. I think it fair to say that the whole process leading to the Northern Ireland protocol and now the Windsor Framework has not exactly been a model of transparency and effective communication or consultation. I therefore hope that we can now move on to a more practical, pragmatic phase, learn from the mistakes of the past and make the Windsor Framework work for the people and businesses of Northern Ireland.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak in support of the two amendments I submitted, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. Amendments 119 and 127 would ensure that substantial policy change with regards to human rights, equality or environmental protection in Northern Ireland may not be effected or take place via the exercise of delegated powers.

Last Thursday, I referred to the importance of protocol Article 2, which deals specifically with equality and human rights considerations in Northern Ireland. I have had several conversations, as has the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, with the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. They are concerned by the breadth of delegated powers provided under the Bill and the potential for the inadvertent breach of protocol Article 2 or the wider diminution of human rights, equality and environmental considerations via ministerial action, or inaction, in the absence of detailed parliamentary scrutiny. I ask the Minister whether that will be the case. What mitigations will be in place to ensure the protection of protocol Article 2?

The tight deadlines of the restatement of REUL by the end of 2023 and assimilated law by 2026, and the scale of the task to be achieved in that time, create a risk of gaps in legislative coverage. It may also contribute to further uncertainty and a potential breach of Article 2 if REUL essential to the no diminution commitment is not preserved or restated with set deadlines. A general convention on this principle was enunciated by the Constitution Committee, which reported in 2018 that

“we have identified a number of recurring problems with delegated powers. We have observed an increasing and constitutionally objectionable trend for the Government to seek wide delegated powers, that would permit the determination as well as the implementation of policy.”

That begs the comment that not much has changed in five years.

The Bill gives effect to a significant body of policy relating to human rights and equality, including employment legislation and EU regulations providing for the rights of disabled people, much of which will fall unless preserved or restated by Ministers. Under Clause 15(1), to which Amendment 119 refers, Ministers may revoke secondary REUL without replacing it, creating potential policy change with limited scrutiny. In addition to being given powers in subsection (2) to replace secondary REUL with provisions with the same or similar objectives, Ministers are also given significant additional powers to replace REUL with alternative provisions in subsection (3), which is of particular concern.

Problems will emerge in exercising these powers, as Ministers are not under a duty to consult on the REUL that is being replaced. Even though the powers granted are time-limited, both the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission believe that they are too widely drawn and will provide insufficient scrutiny, potentially leading to conflict with obligations under Article 2. Our Amendment 119 to Clause 15 would curtail the powers to revoke or replace secondary retained EU law affecting human rights or equality protections in Northern Ireland to ensure continuing adherence to the UK constitutional convention of providing for policy change via primary legislation, with technical and operational detail addressed in subordinate legislation.

Ministers need to engage with stakeholders, including both commissions, and human rights and equality organisations before using delegated powers to replace REUL. Will the Minister give an assurance that that will happen? I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, will refer to this issue, but will the Minister undertake to meet representatives of both commissions in Northern Ireland to discuss this issue further and help assuage their concerns?

Our Amendment 127, relating to Clause 16, provides for powers to be granted to Ministers to modify and amend REUL and restate or assimilate law or provisions replacing REUL as they consider appropriate to take account of changes in technology or developments in scientific understanding. The use of this power is subject only to the negative procedure, so changes made under it may not require active parliamentary approval. This power will not be time-limited. Our Amendment 127 seeks to ensure that the delegated power to modify legislation may be used for dealing with minor and technical matters only.

I have two questions for the Minister. First, will he meet with both commissions? Secondly, can he provide assurances today that the delegated powers in the Bill to modify legislation will be used to deal with minor and technical matters only, and that any substantive policy change to the law in Northern Ireland, including to human rights and equality law, will be made via the primary legislative process?

We must not forget that both commissions were set up under statute to manage Article 2 of the protocol, which deals specifically with equality and human rights and goes back to the Good Friday agreement. Can the Minister set out what consideration was given to ensuring compliance with Article 2 in the development of this Bill, and ensure that there will be no detrimental impact on the precious commodity of devolution in Northern Ireland or our special arrangements in Northern Ireland under the protocol and the Windsor Framework?

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak briefly to Amendments 119 and 127, to which I have added my name. Like my noble friend Lord Bruce, I apologise to the Committee: for a variety of reasons I was unable to attend the previous debates on devolution. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, has given detailed background to these amendments and made a powerful set of arguments in favour of them. I just want to re-emphasise a couple of the points she made.

As the noble Baroness said, these two amendments would ensure that no significant policy changes relating to human rights, equality or environmental protection in Northern Ireland could be implemented through the use of delegated powers. As it stands, the Bill does not give enough consideration to the very particular set of circumstances faced by Northern Ireland. There are multiple layers of existing international commitments through the Good Friday/Belfast agreement, the Northern Ireland protocol and now the Windsor Framework, and it is not entirely clear to me how all these commitments will fit in with the Bill and which will take precedence.

The Minister will be aware that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, set out clearly, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has expressed strong concerns about the sheer number and scope of delegated powers provided for in the Bill and the potential impact of the protocol on Article 2, which guarantees “no diminution” of certain human rights and equality protections. As the noble Baroness spelled out, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland are deeply concerned that the Bill as drafted may accidentally or otherwise result in breaches of Article 2 of the protocol. Article 2 touches on a range of equality and employment rights protections that could be unpicked, not least because it is open to a certain degree of interpretation.

These concerns about the potential impact on Northern Ireland are exacerbated by the continuing absence of an Assembly or Executive in Northern Ireland. A functioning Executive and Assembly would have provided an additional layer of oversight and scrutiny in safeguarding Article 2 of the protocol. As a result of the lack of a Northern Ireland Executive, the Northern Ireland Civil Service is already extremely stretched. The Bill will almost certainly impose an extra set of burdens on it, not least given the unrealistic timescales involved.

I strongly support the request from the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, that the Minister meet representatives of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission in order to hear at first hand their very real concerns. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.