Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Baroness Stroud and Lord Winston

Report stage
Wednesday 18th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stroud (Con)]

I am just carrying on; I am sorry.

Mr Worby was jailed in December 2024 after arranging for a friend’s girlfriend to pretend to be pregnant and acquire abortion pills for him via the pills by post scheme. He then spiked a woman’s drink with those pills to induce an abortion against her knowledge. Again, he could not have obtained the pills if in-person appointments were still mandatory.

Thirdly, in-person appointments allow for possible health risks to be checked to assess whether it is safe for a woman to undergo a medical, rather than a surgical, abortion.

The problems with the pills by post scheme are well documented, with FoI requests suggesting that one in 17 women requires hospital treatment afterwards. These risks were strikingly drawn to our attention by a letter, which has already been mentioned, from more than 1,000 medical professionals who support Amendments 424 and 425. I am glad too for the support of Dr Caroline Johnson MP, who still practises as a paediatrician and brought forward the same amendment in the other place.

The seriousness of this issue was brought home to me when I had the opportunity, in January, to meet with a woman whose sister tragically died after taking abortion pills via the pills by post scheme, leaving behind young children. The medical conditions the woman had, which meant she should have been deemed high risk, may well have been picked up in a clinical context. However, after a telephone consultation, she was sent pills in the post by BPAS and died suddenly minutes after taking the final set of pills.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stroud (Con)]

I am sorry; I am going to keep going.

This amendment would ensure that women are offered the best possible care at in-person appointments, where medical history can be discussed with a woman.

Amendment 425 is not about whether we are pro-life or pro-choice; it is about safeguarding women. Polling last summer found that two-thirds of women support the return of in-person appointments; a mere 4% support the status quo. Abortion providers provided abortion services before the pandemic, with no major problems for access. I urge colleagues to support Amendment 425, which is a far more proportionate response to the handful of court cases that have occurred in recent years than that offered by Clause 208, which makes matters worse and removes legal protections for unborn babies up to birth. Amendment 425 would not reduce access to abortion for women, but it would ensure that their health needs are properly catered for.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Stroud and Lord Winston

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I suggest that the noble Baroness, meaning absolutely well in a clearly very emotional area, has forgotten the real science. She is not a neuroscientist; indeed, I do not think that the commissioner is a neuroscientist. The greatest expert in the United Kingdom on teenage neuroscience is almost unquestionably Sarah-Jayne Blakemore, who works partly in London, partly in Cambridge and of course has been working extensively at UCL for a long time. She has studied teenagers in great detail, and it is very clear from her work on teenagers making decisions that they can make decisions in the right environment and in the right circumstances. I think one has to be very, very careful about making assertions about teenagers. There are many people well over the age of 25 who cannot make these decisions either. I think we have to be quite clear that we may need to take this sort of thing into consideration, but I do not think it is necessarily relevant to this amendment.

[Baroness Stroud (Con)]

My Lords, I want to speak in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Berger. I will limit my remarks because some of them have already been made by previous speakers. I think the reality is that maturity is a scale and choosing to proceed with assisted dying at the age of 18 poses difficult questions, which we must grapple with, about the neurological maturity required for true, settled and informed consent on a matter of such gravity, and not just particular circumstances. I intend to speak in a subsequent group to Amendment 22 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, but some of the points I will make then are also relevant to this group.

I note that research undertaken by the Sentencing Council in 2024, which focused on aggravating and mitigating factors in sentencing guidelines, has this to say about age and maturity:

“Age and/or lack of maturity can affect … the offender’s responsibility for the offence and … the effect of the sentence on the offender. Either or both of these considerations may justify a reduction in the sentence”.


The report goes on to note:

“In particular young adults (typically aged 18-25) are still developing neurologically and consequently may be less able to: … evaluate the consequences of their actions … limit impulsivity … limit risk-taking … Young adults are likely to be susceptible to peer pressure and are more likely to take risks or behave impulsively when in company with their peers”.


I do not want to cross over into debate on the subsequent group, but this seems highly relevant to our deliberations on the appropriate age for assisted dying. Of course, age and maturity are mitigating factors only, and therefore discretionary, but it seems extraordinary to me that the principle of maturity is one which is accepted in a legal context, and there remain calls for dedicated sentencing guidelines for 18 to 25 year-olds in recognition of this, yet the Bill as drafted does not seem adequately to account for this in a similar manner with regard to the permanent decision to end one’s own life. I would be grateful if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, could comment on this when he responds to the debate.

The autonomy on which the Bill is purportedly built must be grounded in safeguards commensurate with the irreversible nature of the proposed act. With regards to the age of eligibility, I do not believe the Bill as drafted meets this standard. For these reasons and more, I support the amendments in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Berger and Lady Lawlor, as well as those in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan.