Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Thornton]

The noble Lord makes an absolutely perfect point; I wish I had made it myself. I have two final points on the amendments that the Government are proposing in this part of the Bill. One is on the provision of conciliation duties and the repeal of Section 3. Under the Equality Act 2006, the EHRC provides conciliation services and the Government propose to repeal that provision. One particular issue really concerns me, which is that of transferring the complaints service for disabled travellers to the Civil Aviation Authority. I have to say that this astonished me. Apart from concerns arising on the ability of the CAA, which has close ties to the aviation industry, one has to ask: will it act independently and impartially? It seems a remarkable thing to be doing.

Moreover, through forcing private and public sector organisations down the more costly compliance route, rather than that of conciliation, and driving the commission towards a court-led approach as opposed to pre-court conciliation, the repeal of Section 3 directly contradicts the overarching aim of the Bill. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could explain to the Committee how this can be justified.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, this has been an important and impassioned debate. I must say that, from the conversations I have had with many of the noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, that was what I expected it to be. I say from the start how grateful I am to so many of your Lordships for giving up their time to talk to me. I would also like to place on record from the start my recognition and thanks for what so many noble Lords who are here today have achieved on equalities over not just years but decades. I recognise that. Indeed, I know that I am a newcomer to this issue. As a fairly recent member of the Government, I tend to hear myself saying that I am a newcomer to whatever debate I happen to be responding to. In this area, I genuinely think that the fact that I come to this without any of my own baggage is helpful. I have been very open-minded in my approach, apart from my firm belief in the importance of equality and having an equal society, which I know I share with everybody in this Room.

The debate is helpful because it allows us to talk about this important issue. We will agree on several things and, from the comments made by most noble Lords today, one is that the commission has to date not lived up to expectations. Its initial problems had many causes, including government failings. That said, things have improved, certainly in the past couple of years, as evidenced by its unqualified accounts. Although things have improved, we are not there yet. We can all agree that we want a strong and effective equality body and an A-rated national human rights institution. More than anything else, what we all want, and what the debate is all about, is an equal society free from discrimination. Today is not about the past; it is an opportunity to focus on the future. I noted carefully what many noble Lords said, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Morris, that the job of achieving an equal society is not a job that is done yet. I recognise that and share his view.

I also understand from the comments made and the strong and powerful speeches today that noble Lords want me to be clear about what the Government expect of a strong and effective equality and human rights body. They will want me to spell out what success looks like, which is certainly what I will try to do. As for looking to the future, it is important that the commission has the right relationship with government. Some noble Lords have talked about accountability but we can come on to that in the debates that will follow on later amendments.

For an organisation to be successful, it needs to be clear on its purpose. At its most simple, the purpose of the organisation of the commission is to promote and protect equality and human rights. That is reflected in what I regard as the commission’s core duties at Sections 8 and 9 of the Equality Act 2006. There is nothing passive about these duties. They require the commission to be an agent of change, to promote understanding, encourage good practice and promote awareness. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, raised a concern about whether the commission would still be an agent for promoting change in the future. The answer is absolutely yes. While the Government consulted on amending the equality duties in Section 8 of the Act to clearly define the commission’s role as an equality regulator, we listened to the feedback and decided against those changes. We agreed that it was neither realistic nor desirable to expect the commission to regulate every part of society. The commission has quite enough on its plate as an agent of change. We want the commission to monitor our progress in reducing persistent inequalities, conduct inquiries into their root causes, establish the evidence about what works, and make and publicise its recommendations for action. I take this opportunity to point out, as the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, has just done, that some very important work has been carried out by the commission during the past years. I pay tribute in particular to the disability harassment inquiry and the home care inquiry.

To have impact, the commission must gain the respect of all as our national expert on equality and human rights issues—a body to which everyone can turn and have confidence in, even if its final conclusions will not be supported by all. I heard very clearly what the noble Lord, Lord Ouseley, said. I say to him that, when I talk about final conclusions not being supported by all, I mean that a salutary and sharp nudge in the ribs of the Government is sometimes what we would expect this commission to do.

That is not least because rights are competing. The importance of the commission lies in its ability to advise on how we get the balance right; for example, between the rights of the offender and the rights of the general population to be protected; and between the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people to be protected from discrimination and the rights of religious people to act in accordance with their faith.

The commission cannot be, or be seen to be, the voice of any one group. It has to be guided by the evidence—that is what I think we are all looking to it for. It should not be possible to presume the EHRC’s position on any issue, because its position should be evidence-led. It should not be not an impassioned lobbyist leading emotive campaigns; its role is to be an expert witness, and to make recommendations on the basis of the facts.

As the guardian of our legal rights, it is also the commission’s role to raise awareness of people’s rights under equality and human rights law and to ensure that the law is working as Parliament intended. Where there is a lack of clarity, it should use its enforcement powers where they will have most impact, in a strategic way, to clarify the position; for example, where there appears to be a contradiction between domestic and EU legislation.

Noble Lords are right: the repeal of the general duty will neither stop nor impair the commission’s ability to fulfil its important equality and human rights functions. Nor does it provide a clear statement of purpose. Section 3 is a political statement with no clear legal effect. In many respects, no one can disagree with it. Who does not want to live in a society in which people’s ability to achieve their potential is not limited by prejudice or discrimination? The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, quoted my noble friend Lord Boswell, and my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece quoted my honourable friend Eleanor Laing as stating their support for the intention behind the general duty during the passage of the 2006 Act—and that is right; it is something with which we agree. But the problem with Section 3 is that it implies that the commission, uniquely, is responsible for encouraging and supporting the development of such a society. This is patently wrong and arguably insults the efforts that we all make in support of these goals, whether through the work of Parliament, government, the wider public sector, business or the community. We are collectively responsible. We might need the commission’s help, but it cannot achieve an equal society on its own.

We are seeking to repeal the general duty on the commission because it creates unrealistic expectations, positive and negative, about what it on its own can achieve. However, as several noble Lords have said during this debate and as I have already indicated, the statement in that general duty is important and removing it from the legislation does not mean that it cannot be replicated in the commission’s own strategic plan or in the way it wants to set out its own mission. I think that it was the noble Lord, Lord Ouseley, who referred to it as a mission statement. I agree. I think that that is where it is best used and will have most effect.

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[Baroness Thornton]

Will the Minister provide the Committee with a financial breakdown of exactly how the cuts to the commission’s budget have been disbursed?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think that it would be easier for me to provide that in a follow-up letter subsequent to today’s debate.

[Baroness Thornton]

Yes, of course.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I add that I hope that very soon—indeed, imminently—we will publish the budget that the Government have agreed with the commission. It is important for me to make the point that the setting of the budget is informed by the commission’s core function, its responsibilities and what it is required to do. We are confident from the conversations and discussions that we have had with the commission that the budget that we have agreed with it will properly allow it to fulfil its responsibilities.

During this debate, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and other noble Lords raised the issue of the public sector equality duty. We will come to later amendments where I expect the debate to focus very much around that issue. However, the public sector equality duty review is just that—a review of the public sector equality duty. When noble Lords refer to the general duty in the public sector equality duty, I think that it is worth my responding that that is very different from the general duty that we have discussed today. The two things are very different. Our proposal to repeal Section 3 is not related to the public sector equality duty.

Bearing in mind that there are other amendments where we will be able to continue the debate about accountability and, as I said at the start, the commission’s relationship with government and Parliament, I would conclude at this point and say to all noble Lords who have spoken today—not just those who have put their names to the amendments—with the exception of my noble friend Lord Lester and the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, to whom I am grateful for their support, that I hope that I have given some assurance which goes some way to giving the Committee the clarity that it is seeking from me as far as what the Government intend in their proposals in this Bill.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

Since the Minister has been kind enough to refer to me, perhaps I may say to her that I hope it is absolutely clear that my position in supporting the removal of the general duty under Section 3 of the 2006 Act is predicated on there being no regression whatever in weakening the legal powers and functions of the commission. She has already stated that in an Answer to a Written Question from me, which is the basis on which I can support the Government.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I hoped that I had said that in my remarks concluding that the public sector equality duty review is just that. What we are proposing is very much contained in Section 3 and does not relate to what we are reviewing in the public sector equality duty. The decision to remove Section 3 is a decision that we have reached. Now, we are reviewing the public sector equality duty and that is not related to this decision.

[Baroness Thornton]

If I were the noble Lord, Lord Lester, I might be slightly worried about this. Perhaps the Minister would be wise to take up my proposal to withdraw this. Let us see what the review holds and where we are after the public sector equality duty review. My reading of what the Minister has just said—she has repeated it twice—is that these two things are completely separate.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

They are separate because the public sector equality duty review, which we will debate when we come to the noble Baroness’s amendment about the equality impact assessment, is about whether the public sector duty is operating in the way in which it was designed. Is it achieving its purpose and its aims? We are reviewing how that operates. We are saying that the core function of the Equality and Human Rights Commission is very much rooted in its responsibilities for equality and human rights. The removal of Section 3 does not weaken its ability to do what it exists to do. Its removal is because we believe that it is a statement which should not sit on its own as a responsibility for the commission but as a responsibility for a wider set of public bodies, including Parliament.

[Baroness Campbell of Surbiton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her genuine attempt to understand and respond to all our arguments against removal of the general duty. I mean that; we have spent time together discussing this in detail. I also thank all noble Lords who have supported the amendment and I hope that they will forgive me if I do not respond to them by name. I am sure that they would want me to save my breath for my response.

I wish that I felt more assured—I really do. For myself and dozens of other people and organisations around the country, the significance of the general duty is quite apparent. I still struggle to understand how the repeal of Section 3 will assist the commission’s future. I do not feel that we have had tangible evidence or examples of what it does now that it would do better if the duty were removed.

We have talked a lot today about perception and mission statements. I was sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was not with us when I made my contribution. He asked someone to explain to him what is added by Section 3. Perhaps the noble Lord does not believe that the power of perception is as strong as the hand of the law. I say to all noble Lords that in my experience perception, not the law, has been the main liberator and discriminator all my life. I am positive that I am not alone in this.

The Minister also tells us that it is wrong for a statutory body to campaign for law or policy reform and that it should focus on promoting the enforcement of laws agreed by Parliament. I agree but—there is a but—there is so much more to a viable equality and human rights commission that would not, if it lost the general duty, have a mandate sufficient to comply either with the Paris principles regarding the status of national human rights institutions or with EU law regarding the mandate of national equality bodies. The Government need to think about this very carefully. Their view of us is really important in this area. I feel that we need more compelling examples of what will be improved by repealing Section 3 as I have heard none so far.

Although I will withdraw the amendment, I fear that if we do not have anything more convincing we will be back at Report, probably saying the very same powerful things we said today. The noble Lord, Lord Ouseley, rightly said, that this is not just about lawyers and the law; it is about people. It is wrong to say that Section 3 is a political statement. It does not imply to me or others that this is a unique role for the commission. I dare say that all the voluntary organisations in this country would be very hurt by that statement because they take Section 3, the guidance and the authority of the commission and run with it. If it is gone, we will be back to fragmentation. As I said, we are all in this together. Without it I will not feel that I am together with anyone. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Deben]

My Lords, as somebody who is also very sympathetic to the purpose of the amendments, I follow my noble friend’s thoughts. I declare an interest as chairman of the Climate Change Committee. We have a very independent situation—more independent than any of those mentioned earlier by my noble friend. The whole question of budgeting is very delicate and difficult.

If you insist that the budget should be discussed in detail in a nitty-gritty way, it makes it almost impossible to be independent, because independence is about how you use the resources that you have. It is bad enough being at the behest of Government as to how much money you may have—there are always arguments about that. You say, “If I am going to do this job, I need this amount”, and the Government will always want you to do it for less. Those arguments go on, inevitably, because the paymaster is always, in the end, the public purse. I think that my noble friend Lord Lester is right to say that the amendment would add to that yet another inappropriate level. However high-minded a committee may be, it is difficult to understand the balances that have to be made. It is like any business, it is difficult.

I hope that the Government will take on board the concerns which the amendments evince. I hope that they will understand that the proposals added by my noble friend Lord Lester: not only that the role of the Joint Committee will be seen by the Government as useful but that the Joint Committee will turn out to have the same view of its purpose. That seems a sensible way forward. I hope that the amendments, which are a good probing way into the issues, will not be pressed. I have to say how hard it is to be independent and run the system in the best way in the public good and still have to answer to five different sets of people who feel that they have, at least, advice to give. I hope that we will not go too far down this route.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate about the accountability of the commission. Picking up on what my noble friend Lord Deben said, there is real value in Committee in having probing amendments that allow issues to be discussed and explored. That is the whole point of this stage of scrutiny of legislation. I welcome that and will, with officials, carefully reflect on our debates on all the amendments today.

Going back to the original question put to me by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about the “A” status of the commission, I know that she asked me this question in the previous debate and she may well have repeated it in her speech on this debate. I can say categorically that it is important for the commission to retain that status. I recognise that accountability is important to the perception of the independence of the commission, which is important to the status conferred on the commission by the ICC, but it is worth reminding ourselves that the commission has a status under the present arrangements.

All that being said, I think that it is possible to strengthen the accountability of the commission to Parliament. In the Government’s opinion, the solution to strengthening accountability does not lie in shifting roles, it is about responsibilities. It is about being clear and transparent about who is responsible for what and by when, and to invite closer scrutiny of the effectiveness of those arrangements. To say it another way, we want to make it clear who is responsible for what, so that people can see as clearly as possible how we are carrying out our different roles and functions. That is why officials in the Government Equalities Office and the commission spent more than six months agreeing the framework document, which is publicly available on both their websites.

I know that there have been some teething issues in the implementation of the framework document which officials in both organisations are reviewing at the moment, but there is no dispute on the principles that the commission must be free to exercise its functions free from ministerial interference or undue influence and that the commission must comply with the same expenditure rules as every other public body. There is no doubt that progress has been made, as I mentioned in the last debate. Indeed, the commission has laid its first two clean sets of accounts before Parliament; there has been a 75% reduction in the commission’s reliance on expensive interim staff, a point to which my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece referred; and the commission’s strategic plan was published promptly last April.

As I say, we are working to increase the transparency of the Government’s decisions on the commission to Parliament. For example, the appointment of the new chair—the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill—to the commission was for the first time subject to pre-appointment scrutiny, and we have committed to send the report of the comprehensive budget review to Parliament, setting out the evidence base for the Government’s funding decisions—and by that I mean the funding decisions for the commission, which includes the funding for the GEO.

We are working with the commission to increase the transparency of its work to Parliament. The commission’s strategic plan, annual reports and accounts and progress reports are already laid before Parliament, and, indeed, Parliament has shown interest in its work, with the chair and the chief executive having been called to give evidence before a number of our committees.

As noble Lords speaking today have acknowledged, the commission reports to Parliament through the Minister for Women and Equalities. Although we support the commission having a closer working relationship with Parliament, we do not think that this requires a wholesale change in the reporting arrangements, which are in line with standard UK practice for non-departmental public bodies. I can refer to some examples where that is the case, including ACAS and the Independent Police Complaints Commission. My noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece referred to HM Inspectorate of Constabulary. I think it is true that that organisation is strengthening its accountability to Parliament. However, I think I am also right in saying that it remains, none the less, an organisation sponsored by the Home Office. The arrangement by which it is accountable to Parliament through the relevant Minister therefore exists there too.

As for how Parliament might strengthen its relationship with the commission, clearly it is for Parliament to decide how much interest it wishes to take in the commission’s work and indeed in the GEO’s sponsorship of the commission. However, we have made it clear that we would support the Joint Committee on Human Rights taking on a greater scrutiny role, for example in examining the commission’s business plan, which was indeed suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, in her pre-appointment hearing.

It is also worth noting the points that my noble friend Lord Lester made. I know that he caveated his remarks by saying that he does not speak for the committee in this context today. However, we certainly support the willingness on both sides for there to be a stronger relationship. We support that in principle and it is something that we would only encourage.

On the specific issue of the commission’s independence, it is worth saying that this is ensured by the Equality Act 2006, which provided that there is transparency around the commission’s role, relationship and responsibilities to government, which my noble friend Lord Lester has referred to. It is because it is enshrined in law that I believe we can be confident that the commission’s independence is properly protected. As I said, we support the strengthening of accountability to Parliament. We have already seen some improvement with the appointment of the chairman and we would certainly support an active dialogue between the chairman of the commission and the chairman of the Joint Committee on Human Rights.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

Before the Minister sits down, would she reply to the point made by the Joint Committee on Human Rights that the standard model for non-departmental public body accountability is not a sufficiently outward and visible guarantee of independence from the Government to be appropriate to a national human rights commission and, indeed, the points raised by the chair of the UN commission about the need to strengthen the commission’s accountability by making it more accountable to Parliament?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The simplest response that I can offer the noble Lord, Lord Low, is that we are in active dialogue with the ICC. My right honourable friend the Minister for Women and Equalities, Maria Miller, has exchanged correspondence with the ICC, as I know has the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. This dialogue has been very productive. As I said at the beginning, the commission has a status under its existing arrangements. Its reporting to Parliament has not been questioned when it was given its status. We are retaining its reporting to Parliament via the Minister but we are seeking to strengthen the transparency of its roles and to ensure greater scrutiny of its work, if that is something that the Joint Committee on Human Rights would like to carry out. I think that the combination of both those things will safeguard its status. I am not aware, from the correspondence with the ICC, that that is in doubt.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I was the one who above all raised the issue of the Paris principles in relation to the setting up of the commission in the 2006 Act and beyond. I have sat on the JCHR ever since. I have no doubt that it is not the function of the UN Paris principles procedure to prescribe precisely to each member state the nature of each relationship in order to satisfy the requirements of the principles. I suggest that the commission would not be treated in the same way as other public authorities, because it would have a continuous role through its chair and, if necessary, otherwise with a standing committee of both Houses that was expert in human rights and had an oversight function, in addition to its relationship with Whitehall. I would be amazed—although I will ask; we will see whether I am right or wrong—if the JCHR, having considered this, came back and said that it thought that that relationship was inadequate to satisfy the Paris principles. I would say that this is premature at the moment, but perhaps the right thing to do is to put it on the agenda of the Joint Committee on Human Rights next week.

[Baroness Thornton]

I thank the Minister and my supporters, the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Deben. I think that we have made some progress with this discussion, which is what we intended to do.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, gave us a very useful description of the practicalities and symptoms of the dysfunctionality in the relationship between the Government Equalities Office and the EHRC, and of the way in which it has impacted on the commission’s work and on its ability to do its job properly. It seems likely that the Government Equalities Office and the EHRC share the same budget source. That would be quite wrong, because they are probably fighting for the same resources. I ask that as a question that does not need to be answered now but which is pertinent.

It possibly answers the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, which I completely accept: that the reason that there were serious management problems was because the two organisations share the same budget line. Despite the assurances put into the 2006 legislation—the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was quite right about them—the relationship simply has not worked in some respects. That has been very important and a source of genuine regret. The discussion is about how we make these things work better and how we make sure that accountability works better.

I hope that the Joint Committee on Human Rights will have this discussion before the next stage of the Bill, because that will help us. If we need to discuss this at the next stage of the Bill, I hope that the discussion will be about what will happen in future and that we will get the discussion on the record.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing me to come back to her in writing on the question of budgets. There was one point on which I was not as clear as I ought to have been. I was reminded of something that my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece said. I said repeatedly that the commission had “A” status under the current arrangements. As has been made evident in the debate, clearly there were problems in the past in the way in which the commission related to the Government Equalities Office. The relationship did not work as well as it needed to. However, what I sought to say on behalf of the Government was that the relationship had improved and continues to improve. We are in danger of shooting ourselves in the foot. We have “A” status under the current arrangements. We are improving what is wrong. We will continue to improve and put things right, so let us not put ourselves in a situation where we improve everything and then the ICC turns around and says, “We will remove your ‘A’ status because you keep telling us that the arrangements do not work”, when we have been able to show that recently they have started to improve and that we know how to improve them further—which is what we will do.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

Perhaps I may add that the independence requirements that we wrote in were used by some at staff level on the commission to justify not being properly financially accountable. I was blamed by officials for having introduced the independence requirements on the ground that there was not proper accountability. Therefore, those at the UN who are considering the Paris principles will also consider that independence does not mean a lack of proper accountability. I make that point because that is something for which we all wish—I refer to financial accountability for the way that money is spent.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful for the debate on this amendment. It might be worth saying for the record, and for the purposes of clarity, that the amendment that we are debating now is to Section 149 of the Equality Act and that the Bill in front of us does not propose to amend that bit of the Act. This is of course different from the general duty for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which this Bill will amend. I say that because, as I said in an earlier debate today, it is important to keep reminding ourselves that the two are different things.

Let me say first that I understand the concerns raised in this debate but that I would put myself absolutely shoulder to shoulder with my noble friend Lord Deben in what he says. Like him, I absolutely support equality but I do not support bureaucracy, particularly because I do not want processes to undermine our ability to extend the support for equality beyond those of us who feel passionately about it. It cannot just be the same people who believe in equality; if we are to improve equality in our society, we have to get everybody on board. We need to be mindful of that in how we design our approach to achieving that end. We all want the same thing: the better consideration of equality issues by public bodies when they are designing services and policies. Where I think we differ, and this is obviously what we are debating, is the method for achieving it. I will explain why I believe this Government’s approach is the right one.

The implementation of the public sector equality duty in 2011 marked a significant change in approach compared to previous equality duties. We wanted to move away from the bureaucratic box-ticking and form-filling to make sure we make real progress on equality. I understand that we in the Government have to deliver on that outcome; that is what we will be judged on. We believe that this amendment would be a regression to the previous practice of too much process and bureaucracy, with not enough focus on real equality outcomes.

Because it has been referred to, let me refer directly to the speech made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister to the CBI about equality impact assessments. This is really a point in response to my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece, but what the Prime Minister was saying that day was that EIAs are not and never have been a legal requirement to ensure what we are committed to achieving, which is public services that do not marginalise or discriminate but which ensure that people are treated equally. They are an intensive resource that can take key staff away from planning and delivering better public services.

If that is not bad enough, worse, they are often produced after key decisions are taken, so they can be a sort of reverse-engineering exercise: a decision has been made and the decision-makers then go back and look at the equality impact assessment form, rather than thinking about the effect of their policy on equalities at the time of their forming it. For that reason, departments were asked to call a halt to the production of equality impact assessments. It was not of course to stop in any way their absolute requirement to have due regard to the public sector equality duty.

Public bodies should consider the potential equality impacts of their policies throughout their design and delivery. Records of this can be used as evidence of due regard to the relevant equality aim and there is no need to create additional unnecessary paperwork. The public sector equality review is taking place at this time but it is important to stress, going back to the point made by my noble friend Lord Deben, that we want to make sure that it delivers the outcome that we all seek to achieve. We feel strongly about it and we are absolutely committed to the need for the public sector to deliver policies and services that ensure an outcome in support of everyone. We want to ensure that it delivers that aim.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked in a previous debate whether we would be taking evidence. We plan to hold a series of round tables that will allow us to gather evidence from the VCS, legal advisers to public bodies, equality and diversity practitioners, trade unions, inspectorates and the private sector. We are also developing a questionnaire to enable public service professionals to provide their personal experience of working with the duty. The involvement of the Equality and Human Rights Commission in the review is critical and, for this reason, the commission is represented on the independent steering group that oversees the review. We are also working closely with the commission as we develop the evidence-gathering for it. The noble Baroness referred to the Schneider Ross research. In evidence-gathering to date, so far we have focused on analysing existing research and case law, but we will look closely at that research as part of this. I realise that we are keen to make progress, so I hope that in this short debate I have given the noble Baroness enough reassurance for her to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Thornton]

I thank the Minister for her remarks and, indeed, I am also mindful of wanting to make progress. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for their remarks.

Experience tells us—this is partly based on the very wise remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Deben—that while public bodies and people know that they must have financial probity and regard to the truth, they do not always know that they have to understand the impact of their decisions on different groups. We have mountains of experience telling us that people simply do not think about the impact of the decisions that they take on disabled people or other groups. That is why we have this legislation and why it is so important. I will read the comments made by the noble Baroness, and we will then decide what we want to do next. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Deben]

This is not a repeat of the same cast on this subject—I did not mean that and I beg noble Lords’ pardon. I say to the Government that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, was too kind about the previous Government spending time thinking about whether there was enough trouble here to necessitate legislation. I find it utterly impossible to explain to somebody how it is that in this country we do not apply an absolutely clear rule that people are not discriminated against because of what they are—from people who are homosexual at one end to people who are of a particular colour at the other, or people who happen to have particular views. All of them become vulnerable unless we hold to that view, because we are all a bit odd in one way or another. We expect to be treated perfectly properly whatever our position, background, colour, sexual orientation or anything else.

It is impossible—this is a very difficult thing for a politician to say—to build a case for suggesting that caste is different from any of these other things. Having been a Minister for longer than most, I am always suspicious of Ministers who write letters in which certain sentences are almost incomprehensible. It means that they do not want to write the sentence that they ought to write because they suspect that if it is comprehensible people might think that it is not adequate. I make no such claim in these circumstances. However, those of us who listened to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, read out a sentence, had some difficulty in understanding what it meant—whether or not we believed that it might mean something with which we might agree.

All that I say to Ministers is that there are no formulations. Whatever may have been written down, there are no formulations which can get out of the simple statement that it is wrong to discriminate against people on the basis of their caste. I want to say something even tougher. The standards of our nation are not up for grabs. If people want to live in this country according to any system they have to accept the fundamental standards that we have. If you really want to cause difficulties, you do so by saying that “this is a very old view of theirs”, and they have it and it may be pretty nasty: I am afraid that that is not on. In this country we treat everybody equally and properly. That is the basis of our democracy. We cannot accept anything less than that. I do not care what organisation thinks differently.

You could go even further with this argument. You could argue that the positions of all sorts of totalitarian regimes are acceptable, because you can still find some people who support them. But you cannot possibly argue that, and we should not. I hope that the least that the Minister will be able to say is that although this may not be precisely what she wants, she will go away to make sure. I think that there is an overwhelming majority in this House and in the other House who say that caste cannot be treated in any way that is different from race or sexual orientation.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, we have had another powerful debate and the speeches have clearly been impassioned and important. As this issue is so important, the Government have given careful consideration to whether the power in the Equality Act 2010 that would make caste an aspect of race should be exercised.

Let me be clear. We do not think that anyone should suffer prejudice or discrimination, whether because of caste or of any personal characteristic. Such behaviour is wrong. It should not be condoned, whether or not it is prohibited by legislation. However, before bringing in legislation, a responsible Government will ensure that that is the most appropriate way of tackling a specific problem; that the solution does not go substantially wider than the problem that it is meant to address; and that it does not create needless red tape, additional and unnecessary cost burdens for business. That is the essence of what this Bill is about.

Turning to the NIESR research, I am aware that it suggests that some caste discrimination and harassment may exist in areas covered by discrimination legislation. The report also states that it is impossible categorically to determine whether caste discrimination within the meaning of the act has occurred:

“Proof either way was impossible, particularly because evidence was gathered from a single person only”.

That is not saying the same as that there is now a compelling case to legislate. Using the letter of my noble friend Lord McNally, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, made her point about whether NIESR had shown that discrimination had occurred. We do not believe that the debate turns on whether there is any discrimination on caste grounds. The debate is about whether legislation is a proportionate response, given the range and nature of the problem.

In response to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, we are not resisting legislation in deference to high-caste views. We are wary of adopting a legislative approach, because we are concerned that that would not be a proportionate solution. The noble and right reverend Lord’s analogy, relating as it did to race, is not therefore appropriate. That said, we must consider whether legislation is necessary. There are examples in the NIESR report of incidents, such as vandalising property or threatening behaviour, that may constitute criminal activity and so would already be captured by domestic law.

Your Lordships should—and, I am sure, do—bear in mind that once legislation was enacted, ensuring the prevention of caste discrimination would become the legal responsibility not just of every public authority but of every private employer, service provider and school throughout England, Scotland and Wales, irrespective of their size or location and of whether they had ever encountered caste or even knew what it was. While I understand the arguments made by my noble friend Lord Deben—

[Baroness Thornton]

Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I will finish the point that I was about to make. It is not that the legislation would catch all of those public bodies; it is that the process of ensuring that they are properly familiarised to comply with the law could, in our view, be disproportionate to dealing with the discrimination that we are discussing.

[Baroness Thornton]

My point relates to “disproportionate”. We have legislated in our discrimination law about Travellers. There are actually not very many Travellers in this country but they suffer terrible discrimination. There are thousands of Dalits living in the UK who potentially can be discriminated against, so I am not sure what the proportion is that the noble Baroness is referring to.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness makes a helpful point in drawing a comparison with Gypsies and Travellers. It is domestic case law, not specific legislation, that has determined what we are discussing for Romany Gypsies, Irish Travellers and Scottish Gypsy Travellers. They are distinct racial groups who are covered by our equality legislation. It is case law that has done that, rather than legislation.

[Lord Deben]

As the Minister referred specifically to me, I will say that I have great difficulty with “proportionality” here because it seems to me that if one person is discriminated against, I have a duty to protect them. I do not understand proportionality in these terms. If the law does not reach a position in which someone is found to be discriminated against in the serious ways we are talking about, we had better put it like that. To say that it is disproportionate is like saying—let me be very blunt—that if not many people are murdered, we do not actually need to have a law on murder. I am sorry, we do; it is not acceptable. It is the one area where disproportion is not credible. This is what really worries me about this argument.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I understand the point that my noble friend makes, but it takes us back to the point about evidence. I refer again to the NIESR research, which suggests that some caste discrimination and harassment may exist but also says that,

“it is impossible to categorically determine whether caste discrimination and harassment within the meaning of the Act has occurred”.

[Lord Avebury]

I am so sorry to interrupt the Minister again; I know that she has been very patient. However, if the argument is that you do not deal with this problem because very small numbers of people are discriminated against on the grounds of caste, what does she have to say about gender reassignment, which is one of the protected characteristics? Should we have avoided placing gender reassignment on the list of protected characteristics because not many people are affected by it?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

In simple terms, the protected characteristics are characteristics that we all share; we all have a sex, a race and an age. I think the point in dispute was debated on previous legislation.

I will conclude by saying that we have thought long and hard about this legislative power and about why making this change in a Bill designed to encourage enterprise and streamline regulation would be inappropriate. However, I am very happy to accept the noble Baroness’s proposal of a meeting. We also acknowledge that uncertainty as to what is to happen on the issue of caste discrimination in Great Britain helps no one.

My noble friend made reference to the letter that he received from my right honourable friend Maria Miller and her reference to the fact that we expect to be able to make a fuller announcement on the Government’s intentions on this matter shortly. I certainly will do all in my power to ensure that, as far as is possible, we do so before we get to the next stage of this Bill.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

The Minister has quoted a couple of times from the report to the effect that it was not clear that this particular form of harassment was carried out on grounds of caste. If she looks at the report, I think she will see that that refers to something quite specific and in no way undermines the overall conclusion that there is clear evidence of discrimination on the grounds of caste. I think she will find that that uncertainty about caste refers to a particular kind of harassment. It does not undermine the main findings. In the light of her reply, I wish to go back to the evidence that I gave just now about my personal interview with someone who clearly had been discriminated against on grounds of caste. When they went to their union adviser, while they were very sympathetic, the union adviser said that a case could not be taken on the grounds of caste because it was not in the law. Will the Minister suggest on what grounds that person should therefore go to law if there is no law at the moment which applies to a person’s being discriminated against?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Without the full facts of the case, I am afraid that it is not possible for me to respond to an individual case in that way. The best I can do is, as I have indicated, to say that I am very happy to have a meeting to discuss matters further outside the Committee. However, I know that it is important that we now draw the debate today to a close.

[Baroness Thornton]

I say a big thank you to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, because I am honoured to be fighting alongside them again—the old team is back. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Deben, enormously for his comments. I remember some issues from when I was a Minister—I think “contaminated blood” was the one that haunted me. The Government just got it wrong: we got it wrong all the way through. This Government came and dealt with it in the way in which my Government should have done. This is one of those issues. The Government are getting this wrong and they need to remedy it. I have enormous respect for the Minister and I am very grateful that she has agreed to have those meetings. I am hopeful that when we have those meetings we will make some progress. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Personal Independence Payment

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Order. This is a Statement, not a debate.

Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on the Fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived: EUC Report

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, and indeed the EU Committee for scrutinising the proposal from the Commission and producing the report that we are debating today. Along with the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, I am grateful also to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, for his very clear introduction to this debate. Because he was very comprehensive in going through the history of how we got to the present position, I will not spend any time repeating that history, not least because we are all feeling the chill in this Room and brevity is the key. However, first, it is essential to make the point that the Government share the committee’s view that this Commission proposal is not consistent with the principle of subsidiarity and that we support the Motion put forward today.

In 2011, the Commission sought to extend the existing scheme. It is worth reminding ourselves, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, already has, that the French and German declaration at that time stated that they considered that the conditions were not met for a proposal for a new programme after 2013—even though they had supported at that time the extension of the existing programme—and that they could not agree with legal and financial proposals by the Commission for such a programme in future. In response, the Commission issued a declaration saying that it,

“takes note of the opinion of a significant group of Member States not to pursue the program beyond 2013”,

and that:

“Without prejudice to its right of initiative under the Treaty, the Commission will take account of this strong opposition to any legal and financial proposal of such a program in the future”.

The Commission has now produced a proposal but it is very difficult to see how the Commission has taken account of this strong opposition that was stated at the time. We have to ask what the main changes are in the new proposal.

First, the new scheme is presented as an instrument to promote social cohesion and to contribute to the European 2020 target on reducing poverty, whereas the current scheme has an agricultural legal base. Secondly, the fund will no longer be financed from the CAP but from the structural and cohesion fund, as has already been mentioned, for the 2014-20 budget. Thirdly, the fund will be used to purchase basic consumer goods for the personal use of homeless people or children, as well as to provide food aid. Fourthly, the new fund will be obligatory—this is a key point—whereas the current scheme is optional. Each member state will receive a financial allocation and be required to set up a single national programme to implement the fund in 2014-20. Fifthly, not only will the fund be obligatory, but member states will be required to provide matched funding of at least 15% of the costs of their national programmes—in other words, on top of the welfare programmes we already have in this country. The fund from the European budget will contribute only up to 85% of the costs of the scheme being proposed in most cases. Sixthly, the new fund will be implemented along similar lines to the structural and cohesion funds.

Despite these changes, the Government’s view has not changed. We remain unconvinced as to the merits or appropriateness of this proposal. The principle of subsidiarity, currently enshrined in Article 5 of the Treaty on European Union, states that the EU should act collectively only where the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the member states acting on their own, and that they can therefore be better achieved by action on the part of the Union.

We consider that measures to assist the neediest members of society, as set out in this proposal, can be better and more effectively delivered by individual member states through their own social programmes and not at EU level. The member states and their regional and local authorities are best placed to identify and meet the needs of deprived people in their countries and communities, and to do that in ways that are administratively simple and efficient. We will therefore oppose this proposal on the grounds that social measures of this sort are a matter for individual member states.

We are also concerned that the proposal does not represent value for money and would be burdensome to administer. Using EU structural and cohesion fund processes to deliver this instrument would lead to heavy and costly administrative burdens on member states and partner organisations, without adding value to existing arrangements in member states.

Not only is this fund inconsistent with subsidiarity, it will use resources that would be better deployed at national or local level. It is worth pointing out that if this fund were removed from the proposals, the UK could argue for an equivalent reduction of €2.5 billion from the EU budget over the seven years of the multiannual financial framework.

I underline that the Government strongly support measures to tackle poverty and social exclusion and certainly agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Boswell. In the UK, we have a full range of social security benefits and tax credits in place to cover financial needs for those who are both in and out of work. We are investing £400 million in the current spending review period to help local authorities prevent and tackle homelessness. We are committed to eradicating child poverty and are taking a new approach to tackling the root causes, including worklessness, educational failure and family breakdown.

On food aid, the Healthy Start scheme provides a nutritional safety net in the form of vouchers for basic healthy foods and free vitamin supplements for pregnant women and children aged under four in disadvantaged and low-income families. Initiatives such as FareShare and FoodCycle are good examples of the essential work that charities are doing to support communities to relieve food poverty.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked a couple of questions. I know that he directed them to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, but it is perhaps worth me responding to them. He asked whether each member state provides for the three issues that the new fund would cover. Obviously, I will allow the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, to respond as he sees appropriate on behalf of the committee. From the Government’s perspective, it is clearly not for us to comment on other member states’ ability. Our approach is to tackle the root causes of poverty, as I just said. Any future proposal will have to be considered on its merits and in the circumstances at the time. If an alternative proposal were put forward by the Commission, we would want to consider it rather than set out our views now on whatever alternative might be proposed.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Just to pick up on that point, a moment ago the Minister said that it is accepted that the EU can act where objectives cannot be sufficiently achieved by member states acting on their own. Does that imply some understanding of the resources that are available to individual member states? Is that part of the judgment about whether, acting on their own, they can deal with the issue?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The principle of subsidiarity is clear. I set that out clearly in my previous remarks and the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has done the same. It is not for this Government to comment on whether other individual member states feel that they are in a position to be able to fulfil the objectives of the proposed fund.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am sorry to interrupt, but who can therefore make that judgment and how? If the judgment is about whether it can be sufficiently achieved by member states acting on their own—that is what the Minister has just said—who makes that judgment and on what basis? If we are saying that each individual member state has to ignore what the resources are and what the position is in each other member state on this issue, how on earth does that make sense of trying to make that evaluation, which she says is important?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Commission itself, in bringing forward a proposal, has no doubt made a judgment in order to inform its decision to put forward this proposal to fund the scheme. I am saying that it is not for us as a member nation to comment on the ability of other member nations as to whether they can meet the objectives that the fund is there to meet. It is our view, from the position of a member state, that we are can provide for our citizens in the way that we are. We think that the issues to be addressed are better addressed by nation states and by local communities or regional bodies within those nation states because of the nature of the issue. That is the point that I am seeking to make.

I conclude by saying that we agree with the committee that the Commission has provided no convincing argument that its proposal meets the principle of subsidiarity. I restate that I thank the committee for its report and all its members who have contributed to this debate. I repeat that the Government support the Motion on the reasoned opinion.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Grand Committee

Amendment 24BL not moved.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Tuesday next week at 3.30 pm.

Committee adjourned at 7.47 pm.

Equal Marriage Consultation

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will repeat a Statement given by my right honourable friend the Minister for Women and Equalities in another place earlier today.

“With permission, I would like to make a Statement on the government proposals to enable same-sex couples to marry. Not so long ago, Mr Speaker, talk of marriage as one of the building blocks of society was dismissed by some as out of date. Of course, those of us in this House who have taken a closer interest know that marriage remains something which most people aspire to. So, far from being a peripheral issue, the future of marriage is something that should concern us all. Today we are setting out how the Government will extend marriage to same-sex couples.

This is a consultation that has been the subject of much debate within the House and outside it. I am immensely grateful to the many honourable Members who have taken the time to discuss these proposals with me, adding their voices to the 19 petitions received by the Government and the record 228,000 individuals and organisations who responded to the consultation.

For some, this is a contentious and radical reform, or, indeed, a reform too far. But the historical facts show that over the generations marriage has had a long history of evolution. In the nineteenth century, inequalities prevented Catholics, atheists, Quakers and many others from marrying except in the Anglican Church. When this was changed, was that accepted without protest? No, I am sure that it was not. In the 20th century, when the law was changed to recognise married men and married women as equal before the law, was that accepted without fierce protest? No. In each century Parliament has acted—sometimes radically —to ensure that marriage reflects our society to keep it relevant and meaningful. Marriage is not static; it has evolved, and Parliament has chosen to act over the centuries to make marriage more equal and fair. We now face another such moment and another such chance in this new century.

For me, extending marriage to same-sex couples will strengthen, not weaken, this vital institution. The response I am publishing today makes clear that we will enable same-sex couples to get married through a civil ceremony. We will enable those religious organisations that wish to conduct same-sex marriages to be able to do so. This will be on a similar ‘opt-in’ basis as is available to them for civil partnerships. That is important for the obvious reason that it would be wrong to ban organisations that wish to conduct same-sex marriages from doing so.

I am under no illusions. I am fully aware that the proposals set out today to allow same-sex couples to marry are contentious. I am also clear that there should be complete respect for religious organisations and individual religious leaders who do not wish to marry same-sex couples. The Government have to balance the importance of treating all couples equally and fairly with respect for religious organisations’ right to their own beliefs.

We need to be fair to same-sex couples. The state should not ban them from such a great institution. Equally, we need to be fair to people of faith. Our religious protections, which I will set out, will ensure that fairness is at the heart of our proposals. Churches have a right to fight for and articulate their beliefs and to be under no compulsion to conduct same-sex marriages. As the Prime Minister has said, we are 100% clear that if there is any church, any synagogue or any mosque that does not want to conduct a gay marriage it will not—absolutely must not—be forced to hold it. That is why as part of our response we will have a quadruple lock, putting into English law clear and unambiguous protections.

I will go into the detail of those locks, but before I do that I want to reiterate my comments yesterday concerning Europe. I know that many honourable Members are worried that European courts will force religious organisations to conduct same-sex marriage. The law is complex but that complexity is absolutely no excuse for misunderstanding the facts. The case law of the European Court of Human Rights and the rights as set out in the European Convention on Human Rights put protection of religious belief in this matter beyond doubt.

The Government’s legal position confirmed that, with appropriate legislative drafting, the chance of a successful legal challenge through domestic or European courts is negligible. I have therefore asked the Government’s lawyers to ensure that this is the case here. Our response sets out clear safeguards—a quadruple lock of measures to protect religious organisations. The Government have always been absolutely clear that no religious organisation will be forced to conduct same-sex marriages. This system of locks will iron-clad the protection in law, adding to the existing protections in European legislation, so that those who do not want to conduct same-sex marriages will never have to.

First, we will write on to the face of the Bill a declaration that no religious organisation, or individual minister, can be forced to marry same-sex couples or to permit this to happen on their premises. Secondly, I will amend the Equality Act so that no discrimination claims can be brought against religious organisations, or individual ministers, for refusing to marry a same-sex couple or allowing their premises to be used for this purpose.

Thirdly, the legislation will make it unlawful for religious organisations, or their ministers, to marry same-sex couples unless the organisation has expressly opted to do so. As part of this lock, a religious organisation will have to opt in as a whole and then each individual minister will have to opt in too. Therefore, if a religious organisation has chosen not to conduct same-sex marriage, none of its ministers will be able to. However, if an organisation has chosen to do so then individual ministers are still under no compulsion to conduct a same-sex marriage, unless they wish to do so.

Finally, because the Churches of England and Wales have explicitly stated that they do not wish to conduct same-sex marriage, the legislation will explicitly state that it would be illegal for the Churches of England and Wales to marry same-sex couples. This provision recognises and protects the unique and established nature of these churches. The church’s canon law will also continue to ban the marriage of same-sex couples. Therefore, even if these institutions wanted to conduct same-sex marriage, it would require a change in primary legislation at a later date and a change in canon law—an additional protection that cannot be breached.

I feel it is important also to directly address other concerns raised by religious institutions. Other legal cases, including provision of services such as bed and breakfast or the wearing of religious symbols, have no bearing on the legal situation regarding marriage. This is because, for most religions, marriage is a commitment made before God; it is at the heart of religious belief. There is clear protection under Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights and there is clarity in case law that the European Court of Human Rights considers same-sex marriage a matter for each member state.

Faith has underpinned British society for centuries and it is as important to me as equality for all before the law. These proposals will allow both to co-exist without threat or challenge to the other. People of faith hold views which must be respected. That is why I have always been absolutely clear that I would never introduce a Bill which encroaches or threatens religious freedoms. It is with these strongly held views in mind that the proposals presented here today have been designed.

I believe that these proposals strike the right balance by protecting important religious freedoms while ensuring that same-sex couples have the same freedom to marry as opposite-sex couples. By making it available to everyone, we will ensure that marriage remains a vibrant institution. Our changes will allow more people to make lifelong commitments and enjoy the benefits of an institution that has for centuries lain at the heart of our society”.

That concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for her support. I recognise that her Government did much to enhance equality in this country during their time in office, and I am pleased that we are able to do more and that we have her support in doing so. However, I do not want to polarise this debate. I and the Government have absolute respect for religious freedoms and those who object to same-sex marriage on principled grounds. I want people to feel able to express any concerns that they may have or to raise questions, because I think that many people want to support same-sex marriage and will do so if they can be reassured that religious freedoms are protected. I certainly see that as my responsibility.

The noble Baroness asked a few questions, which I am happy to respond to. On her point about the conversion of civil partnerships to civil marriages, it is certainly our intention to propose in the Bill that the 50,000 or more people who have entered into a civil partnership since that was enacted will be able to convert it to a marriage. There will be a process for them to follow, and I am pleased to confirm that it will not be time-limited.

The noble Baroness also asked about the consultation responses. Today we have published the Government’s response to the consultation document, and that provides some details of those responses. Clearly, having received more than 228,000 responses, it is not our plan to publish all of them individually, but I hope that the details of the consultation document will provide the sort of information that noble Lords will be interested in.

She also asked about the Equality Act and why it was necessary for us to amend it, as we have proposed as part of the quadruple lock. This is necessary because we need to introduce a safeguard specific to the conducting of same-sex marriages so that anyone, such as a member of a religious faith, who chooses not to do so on religious grounds is not in any way at risk of any kind of legal challenge.

I think that covers all the points that the noble Baroness raised. I restate that obviously I am here to respond to questions. I hope that all noble Lords will feel free to express any views and that they will be reassured that those views will be respected today.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that Statements are a time for brief comments and questions. Could noble Lords please show consideration to each other to enable as many as possible to contribute?

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating this measured and very welcome Statement. I hope that she will understand that many of us in this House were brought up to believe that all people are equal in the sight of God, and that some of us are deeply saddened that some churches have given up their responsibility of being at the forefront in promoting equal opportunity.

That being so, I ask the noble Baroness—somewhat unusually for me—to convey to the Government my personal thanks for the thoughtful and sensitive way in which they are dealing with this matter, especially in providing the churches that want them with a remarkable range of safeguards, while the rest of us can go on enjoying and celebrating love and lifelong commitment among adults who love and care for each other.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support and also for his comments about the way in which we are bringing forward these proposals. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not seek to respond on behalf of the right reverend Prelates in the House today and I am sure that he would not expect me to.

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, those of us on these Benches entirely share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, that we are all equal in the eyes of God. That is why many of us supported civil partnerships, as we believe that the rights and obligations that flow to those who wish formally to mark and celebrate their commitment to each other should not be denied to people simply because of their sexuality.

However, civil partnerships, while conferring virtually the same legal benefits, are not the same as marriage. Marriage is not the property of the Government, nor is it the property of the church. While the forms and legalities around marriage have evolved over time, as the Minister has pointed out, one fundamental feature has remained the same throughout—that marriage is a union of one man and one woman. It is a social institution that predates both church and state and has been the glue that has bound countless successive societies together.

Does the Minister recognise that our concern here is not primarily religious conscience or the protection of the Church of England’s position but, rather, a more fundamental concern for stable communities? Can she assure us that teachers in church schools, for example, will not be disciplined for upholding traditional religious teaching? Can she assure the House that, in spite of the accelerated pace of this process, proper time, even over a Christmas holiday, will be given for adequate consultation with the Church of England’s canon lawyers on the legislative drafting? Can she assure us that the great majority of members of the Church of England and other faiths will not be labelled as prejudiced against gay people for taking a traditional stand?

Perhaps most troubling is the fact that the Government and the Opposition have together in proceeding with this measure led to division not only within the country, where polls consistently show that around half the population is against this change, but also between the political class and the vast majority of practising religious people. What plans do the Government have for working towards some greater degree of consensus on this matter?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for setting out his view on behalf of the church. I acknowledge that people have concerns about some of these proposals, but the safeguards that we are putting in place to protect religious freedoms are there directly to address those concerns. We are not in any way redefining how religious organisations see marriage. Nothing that we are proposing affects any religious faith or teaching in a faith. We are not changing society. We are bringing forward changes to reflect society as it is. We are seeking to do so in a way that is respectful and understanding of different views.

The right reverend Prelate asked me about teachers and faith schools. I can reassure him that nothing that we are doing in this legislation will bring about any change to the approach for teaching in schools. A faith school would be able to continue to describe its belief that marriage is between a man and a woman while recognising that same-sex couples can marry.

The right reverend Prelate asked me about allowing proper time for consultation with canon lawyers. I can absolutely give him that assurance. It is our intention to make sure that we have watertight legislation that addresses all the concerns that religious faiths may have.

Finally, I say to the right reverend Prelate and to all Members of this House that there is absolutely no way that we as a Government would seek to label anybody who did not support same-sex marriage as prejudiced. We are trying to make marriage available in civil ceremonies to same-sex couples and to protect the religious freedoms that are rightly there for all faiths to continue to act in accordance with their beliefs, and we would not seek to change that in any way.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, will the Minister accept from these Benches our wholehearted congratulations on and support for this Bill? It was, of course, we who began civil partnerships though my Private Member’s Bill, which was taken over by the Labour Government. This is a further example of progress. The Act of Uniformity in the 17th century forbade religious marriages of any kind except those in the Anglican faith. It was in the 19th century that that began to change through Lord Brougham’s Bill of 1855. This is a further step forward. Will the Minister accept from me that the safeguards that she has just mentioned will be wholly compatible with the European Convention and will pass full muster before the European Court of Human Rights if anyone was silly enough to take a case there?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support, and I recognise what he has done over many years to bring forward the rights of others and to ensure that we continue to progress equality in this country. I am also grateful to him for his very clear statement about the compatibility of the safeguards with the European Court of Human Rights.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I thank the previous Government, who enabled my husband and I to have the same legal rights as married couples. I welcome this next small step towards equal marriage and full equality under the law. My husband and I have been through two civil partnerships in recent times on the path towards equal marriage, and I very much welcome the cross-party support for this move. Having gone through a GLC civil partnership and a civil partnership under the law, my husband is determined that we have a proper marriage and a full ceremony in the local town hall. Will the Minister be able to guarantee that for me and my husband?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for setting out why he feels as strongly as he does about this. I am pleased to be able to confirm to him that if the Bill passes through Parliament and becomes an Act, not only will he be able to marry in the local town hall but he will be able to convert his civil partnership into a marriage and will legally be able to call his partner his husband.

[Lord Deben]

As a practising Catholic I wholly support the church’s teaching on marriage, but I am also pleased that the Government have decided to bring in this Bill. The right reverend Prelate is right to say that marriage is not owned by either the state or the church. It is owned by humanity. Surely our understanding of sexual relationships and sexuality should lead us to understand that there is an extension of natural law from that understanding. That extension should lead us to be prepared in the state to allow people of the same sex to marry. It is wrong to suggest that there is something unnatural for them to wish to take this step. Therefore, I congratulate the Minister on repeating the Statement. I think she will have considerable support from Christians of all denominations, not least from Catholics.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for his remarks and support. He has very eloquently described why this is an important step forward and why—with the right safeguards in place to protect religious freedoms—we will be able to bring forward a right that many people should feel is theirs and which they can enjoy.

[Lord Morgan]

Like others in the Labour Party, I declare my support for this measure, which is liberal, humane and in accordance with the progressive consensus in our society, particularly among young people. This is not a young House and it is important that we strike a chord with younger people.

However, the Statement contained a quite absurd historical error: it referred to the established church in England and Wales. In Wales, the church has been disestablished since 1920. I declare an interest as the only living author of a book on that subject, and I hope I did not put quill to parchment in vain. I just wonder what the situation will be in Wales.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Lord was speaking, my heart started to miss a beat. I only hope that I read out a version that had not been corrected by my right honourable friend. I am absolutely clear about the noble Lord’s point that the Church in Wales is disestablished now, but the safeguards apply to the Church in Wales as they do to the Church of England because the Church in Wales has a duty to marriage in the same way that the Church of England has. Therefore, all limbs of those safeguards will apply to the Church in Wales.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

Is the Minister aware that, notwithstanding the official position of the Church of England on this, a good number of its members warmly welcome the Government’s position on this? Is she aware that privately, a fair number of individual bishops in the Church of England also support it, but are not able to say so publicly at the moment because of the political situation in which the Church of England now finds itself?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord for making those points. I obviously note them, but I leave it to the church to comment on its own position on this matter.

[The Marquess of Lothian]

May I enter a slightly dissenting note in what otherwise appears to be a consensus? I fully accept the merits of civil partnership in our society, but are the Government aware that in moving towards this legislation, they will create two distinct and potentially divisive forms of marriage—statutory marriage on the one hand, which this legislation will create, and real marriage between a man and a woman on the other, which cannot be redefined by statute any more than night can be redefined as day by statute, or fiction as fact?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

There is only one form of marriage and what we are setting out here is that it will remain a matter for religious faiths as to how they define marriage within their own faith. There is only one legal type of marriage and that will apply both to couples of opposite sexes as well as to couples of the same sex.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, notwithstanding what was said by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and my noble friend Lord Deben, the fact is that for the majority of Christians in this country, at the heart of their religious belief is the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. In that context, can the Minister assure us, first, that the 500,000 people who signed the petition that was reported in today’s press will be taken into account? Secondly, will she assure us that every member of Her Majesty’s Government, as well as Back-Benchers, will have a free vote on this issue?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have tried to make clear that in bringing forward our proposals we recognise and respect the religious freedoms of those who are committed to their faith and the position that their respective faiths take with regard to marriage. Perhaps it is worth reminding my noble friend that the consultation was about how we bring about same-sex marriage and not about whether we should. The huge response was the largest that we have ever had to a consultation. In the consultation document that has been published today, we are very clear that in addition to the 228,000 who responded many others signed their names to a petition. We are firmly of the view that we are moving forward in the right way and taking account of everyone’s position on this. On my noble friend’s final point, I can confirm again that it will be a free vote.

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that a very significant element in marriage concerns children? Will she give an assurance that the position of adopted children in single-sex marriages will not be changed for either better or worse by a partnership entering into a civil marriage?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We have been clear that what we are bringing forward will focus on allowing same-sex couples to marry. That is the purpose of this legislation and where the change in legislation will occur. There will be no impact on any adoption laws whatever.

[Lord Eden of Winton]

My Lords, where exactly did the pressure come from which has persuaded the Government that this proposal is a sensible, or even a desirable, thing to do? Why are they taking this further, beyond what I understand is already a very good provision that allows for civil partnerships to receive a blessing in the church? The union can therefore be blessed in the sight of God in a place of religion. Surely it is not necessary to go further than that. In proposing to do this, are the Government not requiring a complete redefinition of marriage as laid down in the Church of England?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I understand the points made by my noble friend. I can only restate what I have already said. As regards the Church of England or any religious faith, we are putting in place safeguards to prevent any change to their religious definition of marriage.

As to why we are doing this and why it is different from civil partnerships and allowing civil partnerships to take place on religious premises, while civil partnerships were a significant step forward, and were embraced and welcomed by many people, especially those who have taken advantage of a civil partnership, there is still a distinction between a civil partnership and marriage. We believe that marriage should be available and accessible to two people who love each other, and who want to spend their lives together, and that they should not be discriminated against just because they are of the same sex. That is why we believe that it is right that a same-sex couple should be able to marry and to define themselves legally as married, as do other people who have the same feelings for the one they love.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Apart from the name, what difference is there to be between a civil partnership, as enacted during the tenure of the previous Government, and the proposals made here?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The key issue is that two people of the same sex will be legally defined as married in the same way as two people of the opposite sex. There will be no difference in the definition of their relationship in future.

Arrangement of Business

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, as noble Lords will see from the Order Paper, provision has been made for a short delay between Second Reading and the remaining stages of the Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill. The Public Bill Office has not yet received any amendments for the Bill’s Committee stage but will accept any amendment tabled within the next 30 minutes—that is, until 6.38 pm. The House will return to the Bill when the Statement and the QSD have concluded—I suggest that that will be not before 7.38 pm—either to go into Committee if amendments have been tabled or to take the remaining stages formally if not.

Disabled People’s Right to Control (Pilot Scheme) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 24 October be approved.

Relevant documents: 9th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 26 November

Motion agreed.

Violence Against Women

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, this has been a very powerful and timely debate, coming as it does within the 16 days of action following last Sunday’s UN International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. I congratulate my noble friend Lady Jenkin on securing this debate and on setting out so comprehensively the massive problem that we are trying to combat and its effects. I also pay tribute to all noble Lords who have contributed today. I know that this is an opportunity for me to respond, and lots of questions have been put to me, but I also consider it an opportunity to listen and learn, which I have certainly done.

We have covered a wide range of issues. In responding, I will talk briefly about international issues later on but will concentrate on the domestic—by which I mean national—front. I will write to all noble Lords if I fail to cover any of their points, which I know I will do. I know for sure that I am not going to be able to respond to the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, about the action plan.

I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, who said that the scale of the problem was not being matched in global terms by action. In global terms, that is evident and it is why we continue to raise this issue and put it right at the top of all agendas. I will respond right at the start to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, who asked a specific question about the number of domestic homicides and whether that has increased recently. I am not aware of any increase in those numbers, and certainly not in the last published crime statistics.

Violence against women is not a political issue; it is too important for that. Combating it for good is a real ambition that we all share. This Government’s strategy, which we first published in 2010 and which has been referred to by many noble Lords today, has that as its clear purpose. It can be explained quite simply in three parts: it seeks to help prevent violence against women happening in the first place; to provide adequate levels of support where that violence, regrettably, occurs; and to bring perpetrators to justice. All our work in these areas is in partnership with many other agencies and voluntary organisations, some of which noble Lords have referred to today.

Our strategy and our commitment to it is underpinned by the guaranteed funding of £40 million, which we have allocated until 2015, for specialist local domestic and sexual violence support services, a range of national phone lines, existing rape centres and developing some new centres, where there are gaps in provision.

While I am talking about funding it is probably the right moment to answer some of the points that the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Crawley, made about funding. Of course I understand people’s concerns about potential cuts to any kind of local authority funding. I can absolutely see why people would raise that. However, we do not recognise the 31% figure that has just been quoted. Many local authorities are not making cuts and indeed some are increasing their funding. I point to Westminster as one example, which is putting its funding for outreach work up from £440,000 to £760,000. All that said, to try to understand the situation around local funding further, the Home Office is holding a round-table meeting with the Local Government Association in January.

While we are talking about local services and local provision, I make it clear that it dismays me as much as everyone else to hear of any woman who is turned away if they are seeking refuge. I do not want to hear that; none of us does. I would like to think that provision exists to meet everybody’s needs. While some women may be turned away from some of the refuges designated as local authority refuges, they are not the only place where women seek refuge. If refuge is not available to them there, it is often available elsewhere. We fund a database delivered by Women’s Aid which enables those working with victims to identify appropriate services and refuge vacancies.

If I have misunderstood the point on refuges and housing benefit, I shall come back to it in the letter with which I shall follow up the debate. The concern expressed by women and women’s groups about women in refuges who are in receipt of housing benefit has now been addressed. It was a legitimate concern and it is my understanding that it no longer remains a problem.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, asked about the future of SARCs—sexual assault referral centres. These have been locally commissioned up till now on a collaborative basis by police and NHS primary care trusts. We have decided that, for the future—at least in the short to medium term—responsibility for them will rest with the NHS Commissioning Board.

The noble Baroness also asked what role PCCs would play in tackling violence against women. I shall not go into great detail about this, because I answered a Question on it recently. The best way in which I can respond is to point to what Boris Johnson has done here in London, because he has been the nearest example that we have had to a PCC before those who were recently elected. It has been striking how, in working with London women’s groups, he has diverted some of his own funding alongside national funding to increase the number of rape centres in London. He shows us that there is real potential for violence to be tackled through the new police and crime commissioner structure.

If we are to end violence against women and girls, we need to challenge attitudes—that has been made clear by many noble Lords today—and raise awareness of abuse and educate young people. There is always more that we can do in this area and we have to keep looking for new opportunities to do so. One of the things that we are doing in the 16 days of action is to restart this very weekend the teenage rape prevention advertising campaign. Its target audience is 13 to 18 year-olds and it will run until the end of January. The noble Baroness asked about the website alongside that. That will be available and be part of that campaign.

My noble friend Lady Bottomley raised questions about awareness of domestic violence in the workplace and the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, said that it was important that we debate domestic violence. I hope that we can encourage employers to do this in the workplace and encourage women who may be feeling isolated to come forward. I have taken on board that point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece referred to sexualisation of women and children. This is of course a matter of great concern. Since the controls on online pornography recently introduced by ISPs, the Government have reconsulted on online controls. Fairly soon we should be making public some new thoughts on the way forward to build on what has already announced. We are very aware that this is something that continues to concern all parents. With regard to child sexualisation, one useful initiative was the launch of ParentPort—a single website for complaints and feedback to regulators if parents see any inappropriate advertising located where children might see it.

Obviously we can use the law and strengthen it to prevent violence against women and girls. My noble friend Lady Brinton referred to the new stalking offences. I share with her and those others who commented on this the fact that we as a Government are proud to have introduced these new laws but we recognise the contribution made by so many people to make that happen, including Members of this House.

I will skip along because I am running out of time. We are introducing lots of new measures in terms of new laws. One of the most important ones is about extending the definition of domestic violence to include 16 and 17 year-olds, and another is for the definition to include coercive control—or mental cruelty, as other people might recognise it.

My noble friend Lord McColl made a very interesting proposal about the collection of data on potential domestic violence. I have already asked my colleagues in the Home Office to raise that with the Department of Health because my noble friend was kind enough to give me advance notice of it. I will certainly come back and write to him about that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, spoke in great detail about female genital mutilation so I will not go over that in any detail myself. I am so pleased that she welcomed what Keir Starmer announced at the weekend; we very much share her view that this is absolutely vital. Having that law in place is not enough. We need prosecutions, and action to bring prosecutions to bear.

On the international agenda, my noble friend Lady Jenkin trailed the Commission on the Status of Women next year, the focus being on the elimination and prevention of all forms of violence against women and girls. I hope it will give some comfort to the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece that my officials have already started preliminary work to ensure that this agenda moves on next year and is not just something that we have ambitions for that are not fulfilled.

Also in the international arena next year, the UK will take the presidency of the G8. As my noble friend mentioned, the Foreign Secretary is using the profile of that forum—the world’s richest countries—to promote the UK’s initiative on preventing rape as a weapon of war. I am so pleased that someone of that rank in the Cabinet has taken this on board and will take it forward. If noble Lords have not yet had the opportunity, I urge them to read the speech that he gave about that earlier this month.

Lots of questions have been asked; I have a pile here of things that I need to come back on. Forgive me that I am not able to cover them all now. In closing, we are committed to maintaining our strong lead on both the national and the international stages. Ending violence against women and girls is not possible for Government alone. The progress that we have made would not have been possible without the hard work of so many people, including Members of this House. The challenge now is to sustain that collective commitment, to challenge the inequalities and attitudes that can encourage violence against women and to drive improved service for those victims. I believe that we are on the right path to creating a society where no women or girl need live in fear, but we are clearly far away from actually getting there.

House adjourned at 7.39 pm.

Small Pension Funds

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, one of the great advantages of being a Government Whip is that we get to learn about lots of new areas of policy that we may not have been exposed to before. However, it also brings the great responsibility of sometimes having to respond to debates where those who have participated are far more experienced and provide greater expertise on the matter than the Minister in charge. That is particularly so in this debate. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, on securing this debate and pay tribute to her for all her work in the world of pensions for so many years.

I reinforce and share the views of my noble friend Lord Patten. I, too, am very concerned about people who have done the right thing and saved hard for their pensions. This is one of the reasons why I am pleased to be here tonight and to participate in this debate. I also note the important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey: we are talking about people with small pots and, to many people, the small amounts of money that we are talking about make big differences. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, I acknowledge that the topic of pensions does not lend itself to politics, and nor should it. However, the Government want people to be able to get the maximum benefit from their pension savings and we recognise that people can, understandably, find making decisions about their pension and the process of securing an income in retirement complicated.

We need to be clear that professional financial advice is not, and never has been, free, as has been acknowledged by many noble Lords tonight. Even though many people may have thought in the past that the advice that they were receiving was free, the cost of paying for advice may outweigh the benefit of receiving it. This is particularly important for those with small pension pots and we should not assume that paying for financial advice is the right option for everyone. It is important that consumers can make a decision about whether approaching a financial adviser represents good value for money. To do this, they need to understand how much it will cost and that the adviser’s interests are aligned with their own. The Government support the Financial Services Authority’s retail distribution review—or the RDR as it is commonly called—which seeks to bring transparency to consumers on these issues. In response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, and repeated by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that poor people should not receive poor advice, one of the added benefits of the RDR is that financial advisers will be required to have a higher level of qualification to ensure that the quality of their advice is better.

We also need to bear in mind the basics of what people need to know to make these decisions. As has been mentioned, understanding the options available and the language alone can be overwhelming. That is why, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, made clear, the free, generic information and advice offered by the Money Advice Service and the Pensions Advisory Service are so valuable. The advice that is available from those two services, and particularly the Money Advice Service, includes helping people to think about whether professional advice is appropriate for them, because it may not necessarily be necessary.

Clearly it is important that professional financial advice is available for those who have decided that it is appropriate for them. However, we should be wary of overstating the problem about access for those with small pension pots. A recent survey by the FSA revealed that 63% of advisers are planning to continue to offer advice to those with savings and investments of between £20,000 and £75,000. A further 38% of advisers plan to continue offering advice to those with less than £20,000. I will come back a little later to the point made by my noble friend Lord Patten about pooling and whether it is possible to pool in order to access advice.

People have big decisions to make at retirement. I am pleased to say that this Government have already taken steps to ensure that people have more flexibility and better information to support those decisions. Of course those with pension savings below £18,000 have an additional flexibility in their options, which is that they can take their savings as a lump sum. For those who want to be able to guarantee an income for life, from 1 March next year the process of buying an annuity from an ABI member will include making customers consider their options for both the type of annuity that they need and which provider to purchase it from. This is what is known in the jargon as the “open market option”, which, as several noble Lords have said, is all about helping consumers to shop around.

The new ABI code of conduct, as part of the package of measures announced by the OMO review group in March, provides a real step change in the requirements placed on providers and in assistance to annuitants. The package has been developed to ensure that people approaching retirement will receive much greater support to get the best possible retirement income.

The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, asked whether the Government would set up a forum to discuss the issues that have been raised in this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, in his usual colourful way, wanted me to be sure that there was cross-party working on this area. There is already a group similar to that described by the noble Baroness, which is alive to the issues raised. That is the aforementioned jointly led DWP-Treasury open market option review group. The group includes representatives from industry, consumer organisations, regulators and the Government and has met to discuss these issues since 2007. That has prompted a laugh from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. I have noted that.

The group has collaborated to deliver a number of key outcomes over the past five years, including the package of measures announced in March. It was responsible for the joint letter that was sent to the ILC on these matters earlier in the year. The OMO review group is now in the process of agreeing an evaluation strategy for this package. This will include assessing both the impact and success of the new measures but will also aim to consider the extent to which there are issues that remain to be addressed.

Of course, the decisions that someone can make at retirement will always be limited by what they have done and how much they have saved before retirement. That is why the Government have taken steps to encourage a culture of saving. The introduction of automatic enrolment will hopefully see between 6 million and 9 million people newly saving or saving more into a pension. The Government have also established NEST, which has been referred to, as a high-quality, low-cost pension scheme to support this. However, our work continues.

For example—the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, spoke very passionately about this—people change jobs and will tend to leave small dormant pots behind them in their former employers’ schemes. The Government believe that as individuals move jobs their pension pots should follow them, as far as is possible. Consolidating pension pots helps to drive down administrative costs and boosts engagement with saving for retirement. The DWP is working with the pensions industry to develop an automatic transfer system for these small dormant pension pots. The aim is to develop an efficient and cost-effective system that minimises the risks to individuals and works to drive down charges.

This is probably an appropriate point at which to respond to the idea put forward by my noble friend Lord Patten about whether the Government would support an industry initiative to pool pensioners’ assets and increase purchasing powers. The Government welcome innovations to the industry that meet the needs of consumers, so my noble friend’s idea is certainly one that we would want to consider further.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked in relation to small pots whether legacy pots are yet in the scope of automatic transfer. They are not at this time, but we have not ruled out the option that they will be brought into scope in future. In addition, as of April 2012, up to two small personal pension pots of £2,000 or less can be taken as a lump sum by those aged 60 or over, even where people have other savings.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I was looking earlier today at the 2009 regulations, which may be what the noble Baroness is referring to. She may wish to follow this up by letter, but my understanding is that those pots have to have been earned in the previous three years. The problem with legacy pots is that they could have been earned 20 or 30 years before. I realise that this is a policy issue currently under discussion and that the noble Baroness will almost certainly wish to take advice from colleagues, but it would be hugely helpful to all of us if the Government could find a way to bring those legacy pots that are not covered by the 2009 changes into any future system, so that people do not find that some of their smaller pots remain inaccessible.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On a matter such as that, I will have to write to the noble Baroness.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Perhaps the Minister might write on another point: whether or not the automatic transfers—be they legacy pots or otherwise—could be transferred into NEST.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I will certainly write to the noble Lord about that matter as well.

The noble Lords, Lord Stoneham and Lord Kirkwood, referred to the Government’s Reinvigorating Workplace Pensions strategy. As they acknowledged, the Pensions Minister, Steve Webb, announced a range of proposals to restore people’s confidence and trust in pensions and to encourage savings. The most significant, in terms of scale, is the defined ambition scheme. I absolutely acknowledge the point made by all noble Lords tonight that there is a serious issue about lack of trust and confidence in pensions and savings; that is something on which the Government are very clear. For me, however, perhaps the most important point made in that strategy—indeed, it is one specifically raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, although others mentioned it too—was the Minister’s call on industry to use plain language when sending information to its members. As a new reader on this topic, I absolutely share people’s view that the jargon around pensions can create a real barrier.

I have very little time left but would like to say in response to the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Patten, about perks—as he described them—for well-off pensioners that I will of course highlight to my right honourable friend the Chancellor what has been said. However, if I may beg the indulgence of the House, as my mum will definitely be watching on a matter such as this, I would be doing her a great disservice and be in huge trouble if I did not say that many of her friends, as pensioners, make the point to me on many occasions that they feel passionately about their bus pass. I want to mention that for my mum.

In conclusion, the number of stakeholders who have engaged with the Government in developing all these policies is indicative of common goals and a real drive by all to ensure that consumers can engage with the choices that they need to make about their retirement income. In the future, the FSA will be closely monitoring the impact of the RDR on consumers’ engagement with the market through its post-implementation review. An evaluation strategy will be agreed for measuring the success of the open market option package of measures, including the code of conduct. More generally, the Government remain committed to ensuring that everyone has the information and tools that they need to make responsible and informed decisions at retirement. I will of course follow up this debate with any letters to cover the issues that I have not been able to cover today.

House adjourned at 8.44 pm

Child Support Management of Payments and Arrears (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the draft regulations laid before the House on 15 October be approved.

Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 20 November.

Motion agreed.