Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2011
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Teverson
Lord Teverson
I was hoping that one of the noble and right reverend Prelate’s colleagues who has a degree in history and physics might be here. We have already dealt with chemistry and we have some very interesting substances listed here such as cosmic nuclides or whatever. In my electoral division in Cornwall, I have a NORM depot for the china clay industry, operated by Imerys, which is about to be replaced. I got involved in some of the issues concerning the oil industry and other areas where there is a small radioactive residue that comes from processing these minerals. I am delighted to say that I have received no lobbying from the Cornish china clay industry on the regulations, and therefore assume that they are a good improvement. Therefore, I congratulate the Minister on this change.
I have never seen an Explanatory Memorandum that has been more complicated and of which I have understood less. However, I am sure that the Department of Energy and Climate Change has our interests at heart.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am very grateful for the Minister's explanation. I am still thinking about the banana reference, which I did not quite get. If he would elucidate further on that, it would be an enormous help. He made clear the reasons behind the regulations. They are intended to be simpler and more user-friendly, while maintaining standards for the regulation of low-level radioactive substances and complying with EU directives.
As he knows, the regulations were first consulted on by the Labour Government in 2009. As a result of the consultation, a fair number of changes were made. Normally, I would raise concerns about an order coming into force so quickly following its discussion—I understand that it will be the day after it has been signed. However, in this case there should be widespread knowledge and understanding among those groups that are affected by the regulations. For the reassurance of the Committee, it would be helpful if the Minister would state whether he is entirely satisfied that all those who need to know about the regulations do so, and, if there are any gaps, what efforts are being made to ensure that we pick up those who may have missed some part of the consultation process since 2009.
These are very technical regulations. I, too, regret that the noble and right reverend Prelate is no longer with us, because he would be helpful. Few noble Lords will understand Part 3 of the regulations. Table 2, headed “Concentration of radionuclides”, lists various concentrations in becquerels per gram. I confess that I have no understanding of what that means and so in many ways feel inadequate to the task of effective scrutiny. I therefore seek reassurance from the Minister. Can he say whether any concerns were raised through the consultation that the regulations would in any way compromise public safety? I gave notice that I would ask that question. If those concerns were raised, how were they addressed? Those who were consulted would have greater knowledge than I or other Members of your Lordships’ House would have.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Teverson
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I feel that I have the appearance of a jack-in-a-box at this Dispatch Box. Hansard may make of that what it will. The amendments put forward in today’s sixth group—I beg to move Amendment 8A and to speak to the others in the group—all seek to achieve the same aims. They are all supportive and reflect the discussion that we had in Committee. Certainly, our Amendments 8A and 8B look to ensure that protection is there if an assessor identifies within the Green Deal—this also expands to the energy plan—that plans that are promoted or arranged at the same time as the Green Deal plans should also have protection from the same code of practice, so there is no confusion for those who have work undertaken in their homes.
We are certainly very supportive of Amendment 11, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I think he is trying to raise exactly the kind of issues that we raised in Committee. The amendments before us reflect our discussion in Committee, when I raised the point about having an energy plan from which the consumer could choose their Green Deal plan. That is in effect covered by this amendment. Much of his amendment, and ours, hits the key areas that concern people about the Green Deal. The assessor will identify what measures can be taken to improve energy efficiency. They must act in the best interests of the improver—that is, the consumer—but it is the customer or improver who chooses which measures in the energy plan then go into the Green Deal plan. Subsection (4) of the proposed new clause in Amendment 11, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, ties in with our purpose clause and reporting clause, which the Minister so graciously accepted the need for earlier, but on a smaller scale to let us know the impact by consumer.
Again, the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Whitty is excellent. One way to best protect the consumer at any stage is through transparency and openness. If we always ensure that we have those, that fits in entirely with the Government’s approach on other issues as well. Our amendments are very much worth supporting. The key for consumer protection is that if consumers have a Green Deal plan, other measures introduced in their energy plan should all have the same protection, so that the consumer does not feel at a later stage that they have been somehow conned. I believe this will give confidence to the consumer and to the public in taking up the Green Deal.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, we have had a long and useful discussion about making sure that consumers receive the best deal that they can from the Green Deal. One of the areas that I felt was missing when we considered the original Bill in Committee was a duty for providers, for people who were bringing plans forward to consumers, to ensure that that was the right plan for that household and that family. I thank the Minister for the discussions we have had, and that I know he has had with other parties, on this area. I welcome the fact that the Bill is being brought forward relatively near the beginning of the parliamentary Session so that we can get the Green Deal implemented next year.
In putting the amendment forward, I was looking to get on the record the Minister’s further thoughts about how this area will operate. I have wrestled in my own mind to a large degree with how the tripartite arrangement of the financier, the adviser and the person who does the work will come together. We must avoid a bias in the solution whereby the person who draws up the plan fits it to the provider whom they are dealing with or fits the term of the finance deal to the finance provider, so that we do not have a situation where a biased recommendation is put forward that the consumer then feels they have to accept. How will the people who do the assessment be paid for if they are not connected to the other people?
My conclusion, having thought this through at some length with my meagre intellectual powers—
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Teverson(13 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving a detailed explanation, although I am not really sure that she understood fully the points that I made. I apologise if there was not enough clarity in what I said. I have asked that a copy of the brief that was e-mailed to me today by her department should be given to her as well. I shall make sure that she receives that.
We have heard so many times about what the market mechanism will provide under the Green Deal. Previously, in this area of policy, it has been more about the commercial arrangement than market mechanisms, but the Government seek to alter that—as I understand it, on the basis of one case in which the Secretary of State has been asked to intervene. Is this an appropriate way in which to progress? Although the Secretary of State has been asked to intervene, the new clause gives the Secretary of State powers to seek information on how negotiations are going and then to issue a notice granting rights. I am concerned that the Government feel that they could be acting on behalf of one of the participants in a commercial arrangement. I am not sure that that is prevented from happening in the clauses we are discussing.
I am happy for the noble Baroness to take this away and come back to me on this matter. There was another point that she did not address. Some companies have put it to me that such a clause, whereby there can be direct intervention by the Secretary of State in what was a commercial arrangement, could impact on the investments of those companies in the industry. That is quite a serious matter, and I asked whether there had been any discussions with the industry on investment. I appreciate that she does not have the information to hand, but if she could let me know it would be very helpful.
Lord Teverson
I like this part of the Bill. Good questions have come from the noble Baroness, which we would not have dealt with in Committee otherwise. First, as the Minister says, these provisions give the opportunity for small oilfields to be exploited when the infrastructure and investment in that would not otherwise allow that at all. Secondly, to pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan—although he is not in his place—it must make it possible for smaller, independent oil companies to exploit those opportunities, which would not otherwise be there if there was no sharing. The pipelines that are already there are in a certain way a ransom strip. They are a monopoly of a facility that has been invested in, rightly, by those organisations, but they give undue leverage to those organisations. Also, the fact that this legislation is here means that commercial deals will almost certainly be done, whereas they might not be if it was not here. So this is a good clause in the Bill.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Teverson(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Smith of Basildon
The noble Lord asked if the promoters could tell him what local authorities could do. I admit I am rather surprised that, as a local councillor himself, he asked the question, because he knows about Bristol. I know that the Minister is anxious to reply, I hope positively. Perhaps I may draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, to the local carbon framework pilots. I can give him the information, although it is easily available, on the work already undertaken by local authorities. Bournemouth, for example, has encouraged microgeneration in the domestic sector and production of energy from waste. There has been retrofitting for homes in Bristol. These pilots undertook a number of programmes to see what levers local authorities have and what practical measures they can take. It is because the outcome of those pilots was successful that not just I but all noble Lords would feel confident in putting these proposals before the Committee.
Lord Teverson
I thank the noble Baroness for that. My comment would then be that that shows how important local authorities are in this area. A number of them are probably significant as a proportion of total carbon within their regions.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Teverson(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I welcome the approach that he has taken throughout this Committee. He is taking on board comments that have been made today, and I know that he will take them back and perhaps we will see some changes at Report. I just grinned when he talked about the code of conduct because—I do not know whether the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, picked this up—he said that the code of conduct “must” set out the qualifications and skills. At the moment it does not; it only says it “may”. So I welcome his change of language to “must” set out the qualifications of skills, rather than “shall”, as my amendment suggested.
It has been a useful debate, and I always defer to those with greater knowledge on issues. I do not think that there is much difference between us. All of us agree that those undertaking the work, whether assessments or installation, have to have the appropriate skills and qualifications. It is entirely appropriate that although they are accredited in some way, that can be withdrawn. But the reason for raising the issue of standard assessments was not to propose a tick-box procedure—although there will undoubtedly be some kind of tick-box procedure—or uniformity of the work that will be required. However, the issue has been raised. The National Housing Federation raised concerns that the current assessment—I think it is the SAP—does not always work. I was trying to get to a consistency in standards of measurement.
Given that the Green Deal, in terms of what work can be undertaken in a home, has to be cost-effective and follow the golden rule, some kind of standardised assessment to understand what fulfils the golden rule in that way, if the savings have been made, and some sort of consistency, will be required. That is of interest to customers. So I am not suggesting that every house needs to have the same installation and the same work done. There will have to be intelligence taken on board by those installing. However, a lot of the measures will be very safe, and it would be a somewhat ludicrous position if two houses next door to each other were both given different ways of achieving it. It brings us back to the issue we had around the Green Deal plans and the energy plans because, under the Green Deal plans, it could be the same work but with different ways of achieving the same objectives; and the decision would be taken by the assessor, not by the householder. I think that is an issue of the householder having confidence that the assessor is given the correct information.
Lord Teverson
I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. I would like to make an illustration there, which may come on to something later on. She mentions that two houses together should not have different solutions. The big challenge is that both those houses, and probably the rest of the street, are assessed as a whole, and a better solution of the 20 houses has made them the one or two. That is why I have a slight concern about too systematised an approach. I think the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, made a magnificent case for a degree of that approach; but I think that that point illustrates that, if it is too tram-lined, then we can get into too much trouble, and I understand she is not saying that.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am not suggesting that it should work on tram-lines, but there will need to be a consistency that is understood. The other point is that there should be some kind of guidance and standard of assessment. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, said in his comments that assessors will have particular expertise in methods of insulation or whatever. There is a concern that assessors may be linked to a particular company and may want to promote the products of that company and a particular method of energy efficiency. That is something that I think all of us want to avoid. The assessor should be free to look at any way in which you can promote energy efficiency or maximise energy efficiency in the home. I hope the noble Lord can take these points away. There needs to be some consistency in the standard that is required. If we can reach that through the level of skills, qualifications or training, then that would be appropriate. We will always want to ensure that the consumer comes first, and the consumer can be assured in all cases that they are getting correct and accurate information. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, the amendment concerns a matter of principle. When reading through the detail of the Bill I had some difficulty in understanding exactly what protections there are for consumers in this system given that there are a number of different actors in the providers of services. We have the finance companies, I presume; the assessors; the experts who go out with or without their tick boxes; and the people who draw up the green plan or the broader energy plan. I am concerned about consumer confidence, about which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, talked so well. There is a need for the legislation to contain a duty to ensure that there is no collusion—or even laziness in a negative way—which prevents consumers getting the best deal.
I do not believe the Competition Commission would be interested in this level of transaction, nor, I suspect, would it come under local authority trading standards. I will be interested to hear from the Minister how the Government see this area and what legislation they will bring forward to make sure that the various actors on the supply side provide the best deal for the improver; that there is not in the supply chain a person making sure that a particular building supplier always gets the right business or an assessor who makes sure that the person who draws up the energy plan is not always the same person.
Having said that, I understand that this is a complicated area. Clearly relationships will build up. It may be good that particular organisations and individuals work well with others within the supply chain but I am concerned that the consumer’s interest is protected. Hence the amendment seeks the Secretary of State to have a duty to ensure that there is no collusion, either by design or through laziness, that delivers a less than optimal solution for the consumer. That is what the amendment is about. I am sure that any public Bill writer would be appalled by the state of the language and what it says, but I have tried to put it in plain language so that the Minister can come back and say to us how he feels this area should be approached within the context of a green energy plan. I beg to move.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I support the principle of what the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is seeking to achieve. It is not dissimilar to the point I made earlier about whether there may be arrangements or relationships between an assessor and an installer whereby the assessor will always want to give business to a particular installer for the work to be done. It is difficult to ensure that there are not such arrangements and the wording of the amendment puts the issue back into the Minister’s court to see how best this can be achieved. It is an important objective to consider because, as has been said a few times during the course of the debate, protection of the consumer and consumer confidence are all important. If the consumer thinks that a certain assessor will always go for particular kinds of products or arrangements, it will not lead to confidence in the Green Deal. I hope the Minister will take on board the principle, understand the point that it is seeking to make and consider ways in which it can be addressed.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I have listened carefully to the Minister. I think that he is trying to reassure noble Lords on this important commission point, but I am not reassured. Clause 3(4)(a) to (g), on the code of practice, would seem to allow an installer to employ an assessor, and to allow that assessor—within this code of practice, this framework arrangement and the Green Deal—to recommend energy efficient measures that fall within the remit of one installer that is employing that assessor. I do not understand how an assessor can be employed by an installer and be independent. I am grateful that the Minister will look at this again. However, depending on what he comes back with, we may wish to return to this at a later date.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I thank the Minister for going through this and perhaps spending more time on it than he would wish. However, I think it is a core part of making this system work and putting it above question. Public money is not involved but we are talking about consumers’ own money under a government scheme. That is why it is particularly important. I was going to offer to look up the various bits of competition legislation that he mentioned but I suspect that I will not get round to that before Report.
I thank the Minister for looking into this area. It would be useful for the department to explore this and to have a clear view on how it will work to avoid what I would call mis-selling within the market place. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Home Energy Efficiency Scheme (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2010
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Teverson
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the care that he has taken in addressing the questions that have been raised today. I thank also the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Teverson. Tempted as I am to get the latter’s name wrong, I promise not to do so.
Lord Teverson
I humbly apologise. I think that that is the first time that I have ever got anybody’s name wrong in this House. I shall not do it again. From the Liberal Democrat Benches of the coalition, I welcome the noble Baroness to her Front-Bench position.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
That is very generous of the noble Lord. I am grateful. No offence was intended and none was taken.
While I would not accept the Minister’s categorisation of Warm Front as an experiment, I do not think that any of us here is wedded to a particular method. Our objective is to reduce fuel poverty and to help those who are in fuel poverty. If Warm Front can be improved, with a greater number of people enjoying better outcomes, I am sure that it will receive the support of the entire House. I am grateful to the Minister for looking at the scheme, but we will want to see how the measures that he has outlined progress—I am grateful for his comments on monitoring. The current scheme will run out of money by mid-December, so there is a need for progress. I look forward to seeing the consultation on the new criteria for targeting Warm Front. We will welcome further information. As I said, I am grateful for the Minister’s answers today. We will monitor the new measures as they go through to ensure that we reach those people who genuinely need help from government.
Motion agreed.