Command Paper Safeguarding the Union

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, there is some indication of that already by the engagement between Ministers and the EU. We are obviously engaging Northern Ireland on that, given its importance to Northern Ireland. As that proceeds further, we will give updates as and when we can.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s manifesto committed to implementing the Windsor Framework in good faith, but it was silent on the Safeguarding the Union Command Paper. Does the noble Baroness acknowledge the enormous effort that went into Safeguarding the Union, which, taken in its entirety, was crucial to the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland in February? Will she commit to implementing Safeguarding the Union in all its parts? In 2021, the then leader of the Opposition stated:

“I … believe in the United Kingdom and … want to make the case for the United Kingdom”.


But in Belfast, days after becoming Prime Minister, he said that he would be an honest broker on the issue. Which is it?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is struggling there to come up with something that does not exist. This party is committed to the union; he knows that. Noble Lords just have to look at the budget for Northern Ireland, which under this Government now has the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution. That is one way in which we show our commitment. There have been 14 ministerial visits to Northern Ireland since the election, with the Prime Minister visiting twice. I do not think that anybody could be in any doubt about our commitment to Northern Ireland’s place in the union.

Northern Ireland: Industrial Action

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to my friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, for her question. She referred to the mandate of the Democratic Unionist Party. Of course everybody respects every party’s mandate in Northern Ireland. I repeat that bullying and blackmail are not the approach of His Majesty’s Government. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the whole ministerial team have spent a lot of time in recent months engaging with the DUP to try to work through the outstanding issues that are preventing the establishment of an Executive. The substantive negotiations on those issues came to an end in December but, as we have made clear, we are happy to clarify where clarification is needed. I repeat that the imperative in respect of public sector pay and resolving these issues is to get the institutions back.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is an absolutely terrible situation at the moment. We have public sector workers in Northern Ireland being paid less than their counterparts across the rest of the UK. I am sure the Minister will understand the absolute frustration of the people of Northern Ireland, who saw their Assembly meet today and, yet again, be unable to elect a Speaker. The Secretary of State has been clear that he does not intend to directly release money available for public sector pay, but the people who are suffering are the public sector workers and the public they serve. It is not just the weather that is frozen in Northern Ireland at the moment. Given that the Government take that position, what steps do they intend to take next and can the Minister confirm to the House whether the Secretary of State intends to bring forward legislation—even as early as next week—to postpone further Assembly elections?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, who has great experience in these affairs as a former Northern Ireland Office Minister. I put on record my praise for public sector workers in Northern Ireland, who do an outstanding job, often in very difficult circumstances. I understand the frustrations that they face at this time. In respect of the noble Baroness’s point about parity, she will be unsurprised to hear that I am a unionist. I want parity across the United Kingdom for public sector workers, but the answer to this is not for the UK Government directly to intervene; we do not have those powers. It is for the Executive, backed by the very generous funding offer that is on the table, to deal with these challenges. On legislation, this morning my right honourable friend said at Northern Ireland Questions in the other place that he will bring forward legislation next week to deal with some of the issues to which the noble Baroness referred. She will forgive me if I do not pre-empt what he is going to announce next week.

Windsor Framework

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Tuesday 7th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. She is absolutely right that Northern Ireland needs stability and certainty. As I said in response to a Question last week, for those of us who passionately believe in the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom, restoring the institutions and having political stability in Northern Ireland, and building a Northern Ireland that works for all parts of the community, is the surest foundation for strengthening the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the DUP has set up a panel to look at the issues around the framework. I hope it will be looking at what it can deliver for Northern Ireland. I hope the Minister can confirm that the Government will fully co-operate with that process, working with the panel. I also say to your Lordships—this is a point that the Minister himself just made—that there is not really a perfect solution to the position we are in. What we want to do is get the best outcomes for Northern Ireland and for the UK. I have to say that I hope that the DUP will conclude that it can go back into the Assembly and Executive, because the only way to truly address the democratic deficit in Northern Ireland is to have a fully functioning Executive and Assembly. So I look forward to the outcome of the panel’s responses and I hope it will recognise the effort that has gone into achieving this agreement.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Well, I appreciate very much the comments of the noble Baroness and the tone with which she expressed them. Of course, we all hugely desire the restoration of the political institutions at the earliest opportunity, not least as we approach the 25th anniversary of the Belfast agreement, which the party opposite negotiated in government. On the panel, that is of course a matter for the Democratic Unionist Party. The Government are committed to working with all parties to take this process forward. Where there is a need for official technical briefings, we are quite prepared to provide those and, as I say, we will work with all parties to take this forward.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Supreme Court Judgment

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Thursday 9th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his question. I gently point out that in the Supreme Court the Government won on all counts brought by the applicants. On his specific points, the Supreme Court was very clear that Northern Ireland remains an integral part of the United Kingdom. The position set out in the Belfast agreement is very clear: Northern Ireland is either fully part of the United Kingdom or it is fully part of a united Ireland, which will only ever be determined by the consent of the people in Northern Ireland. That remains unchanged.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Supreme Court judgment is welcome in that it provides legal certainty where there was uncertainty. The protocol negotiated by this Government—I see that the noble Lord, Lord Frost, who was responsible for it, is in his place—is by no means perfect. There are problems with it, which is why it is being renegotiated. I distinctly recall Ministers in your Lordships’ House saying that the protocol was essential to protect the Good Friday agreement, but now the Government tell us they have to change it to protect the Good Friday agreement. Only one of those statements can be true.

Businesses in Northern Ireland have been forced to adapt to their circumstances. They have put a lot of effort into adjusting to this. To unilaterally remove it would be the worst thing for businesses in Northern Ireland. There are reports that some limited progress is being made in negotiations. How confident is the Minister that the outstanding issues can be resolved quickly and in a manner that can draw broad, if not unanimous, support from across Northern Ireland?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. As I have said on many occasions, she is a very distinguished former Northern Ireland Office Minister. We debated these issues at some length on Tuesday evening during the passage of the Northern Ireland Budget Bill. I was very clear that evening that for many businesses and sectors there are elements of the protocol that are working well. I referred to a recent meeting I had with the Dairy Council and Lakeland Dairies in Newtownards. For those businesses, EU single market access, as provided for in the protocol, is not just desirable but essential. We are committed to preserving that. I also said that there are many problems with the protocol for other sectors. It has led to diversions of trade and increased burdens on business. It has disadvantaged consumers and led to political instability—witness that there are no institutions at the moment.

On the noble Baroness’s question, I will not comment on what may have been written in newspapers. The Government’s preference is to resolve these matters through a negotiated agreement with the European Union. As I said in my initial Answer, we are working tirelessly towards that end.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Committee stage
Tuesday 31st January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I dealt with this to some extent last week, but I will go on to deal with it later in the course of my remarks; I hope the noble Baroness will bear with me. I was reiterating that I completely accept that this is the most challenging part of the legislation—I have been completely up front and honest; it is challenging for me, too. However, as I said a few moments ago, the difficult reality is that the prospect of successful prosecutions is vanishingly small, and a single-minded focus on them offers the prospect of achieving very little for families and for wider society.

Again, in response to some of the comments about pausing, pulling or repealing the Bill—which is, I believe, the official position of the Opposition—the difficulty is that, if we go back to square one, it will take at least another five years to come up with something. The reality is that no Government of either colour will go anywhere near this anytime soon, if at all. Maybe I am wrong and the Opposition have a fully fleshed-out and workable model—but the noble Baroness is shaking her head, which indicates that they do not. If they are starting from scratch, I can tell her that the process is extremely laborious and will take a long time.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

There is a big difference between starting from scratch and having something fully worked out. The Minister has heard the views from around this House. There is work to be done and we would like to do it.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The words “I’ll believe it when I see it” spring to mind, given the experience of successive Governments over the past 25 years who have sought to grapple with this issue.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Committee stage
Tuesday 31st January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, for bringing forward these amendments, which I think are very helpful. However, she said earlier—the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referenced it as well—that while many in your Lordships’ House, perhaps everyone, think that this Bill is not fit for purpose and should not be brought, there is an obligation on us to do what we can to improve legislation. That is our role, and I think her amendments today and the way in which she has spoken to them illustrate that sharply.

They are a very helpful amendments because surely at the heart of any investigation is access to information. I was struck by the noble Baroness’s comment about there not being clarity if there is a test or qualification about getting that information, as it can take longer, be more expensive and does not do the job that this clause is probably intended to do.

As we know from other Troubles-related investigations, relevant information can be held by different authorities and different agencies. One of the things that the commission—I say that to save having to go through the initials and stumble over them—will have to do is access that information quickly if it is to gain as complete a picture as possible. I will be interested to hear what the noble Lord has to say and hope that he will view the amendments sympathetically when he comes to respond.

I understand the reasons the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has put forward the amendments about the affirmative resolution. I think there is a general issue about government regulations; they seem to be heavily weighted. If we were to look at a chart of how many decisions are made or how much legislation can be done by secondary legislation, I think we would see quite a sharp incline in recent years. It is not a big leap from a negative to an affirmative procedure; it just guarantees that it will come before both Houses. But these are quite big issues. If something cannot be in the Bill, and if there are reasons why it has to be done by regulation, then it seems perfectly reasonable to have the affirmative procedure. Will that be enough, given that, as we all know, statutory instruments are an adequate of way of legislating when everything is set out first in the primary legislation? As I understand it, this is about looking at individual cases. I hope the Minister can give some reassurances on that. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has done the Committee a service by bringing forward these amendments today.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those noble Lords who have put forward these amendments. In responding, I am conscious of the experience in these matters of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, both in her role as police ombudsman and in the subsequent investigations and reviews that she has carried out.

The noble Baroness’s Amendments 37, 40, 191 and 197 aim to redefine the disclosure requirements of certain relevant authorities by, as she pointed out, creating a new tier of “special relevant authority”. This would mean that any authorities left in the “relevant authority” category, such as the ombudsman or the chief constable of the PSNI, would be required to disclose all material to the ICRIR regardless of whether or not it is reasonably required, while certain other agencies, such as MI5 and MI6—the Secret Intelligence Service—would be able to rely on the provisions as drafted, being required to provide information only where reasonably required.

The Government’s view is that the amendments are unnecessary, as we are clear that the disclosure provisions in the Bill already go further than ever before in statute in terms of putting relevant authorities under a duty to disclose information if it is reasonably required by the commission for its investigations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, having had a long debate, we are now moving at pace. These are interesting amendments. Just as the immunity debate went to the heart of the Bill, in many ways this one does as well. Although we have not seen victims mentioned much in the Bill, it is entitled the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill, and if victims are not at the heart of what we do here, it is hard to see how reconciliation follows. That is what prompted the amendments before us today.

I have said before in this place that one of the most profound experiences I had was as victims and survivors Minister for Northern Ireland, which I did for about two and a half years. There is not a homogenous design whereby you can say, “Victims want this.” Different people have had different experiences, and different things have happened to them in different ways. There is not one experience whereby everyone can say, “Yes, that is how I feel; this is what I want.” They are looking for different things, and that is what makes this so complex and these amendments so important.

As has been noted, some will be saying, “We want justice. We know who is responsible. There should be action.” Others say, “I just need to know the truth. I want to know what happened”, because the agony of not knowing is so great. In some cases, knowing what happened creates additional agony. I remember a discussion where the truth for one individual was going to be awful. They wanted it and needed it, but it was not a pleasant experience for them in any way at all. Others just want acknowledgement that this is what they and their families went through. When we are talking about victims and survivors, one thing that was brought home to us all by those we met during the process of this Bill is that the trauma of what happened can survive several generations. It is not just the individual who has been through the experience of the Troubles; the family can be affected, whether financially, emotionally or physically.

This group of amendments is really helpful and goes to the heart of what the Bill should be about. Possibly the biggest failure of the Government is not recognising that. There have been a lot of warm words for the Minister, and they are well deserved, but he is there to support the Government in defending this Bill and he may be disappointed that only one member of his party is behind him to offer support. We have all been there; it can be a lonely experience on the Front Bench in those circumstances—although I am not sure I have ever been in quite the same circumstances. That is why, if he cannot say tonight that he will accept these amendments, it would do the Government well if he can say what he will bring forward to address the issues that have been raised.

My noble friends Lord Murphy and Lady Ritchie have signed these amendments, which allow family members to provide a victim impact statement as part of the review process. Without that, this will be one of the biggest failures of the Bill—and we have mentioned many tonight.

The Bill allows family members to refer cases and make general representations, but it is not clear what the family member gains from that process. If, as the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, has proposed, the Bill explicitly allows statements and for the proper resourcing of that process, that would go some way towards some resolution of that issue. It would not go the whole way; I think the Bill is so badly drafted and ill-conceived that it cannot address all the issues. The noble Lord made the point that has been made many times today in every part of the Bill: we would not start from here, but as Members of this House we have a duty to do what we can and fulfil our role—though I have been struck by how many of the individuals and organisations that I have spoken to have said they almost feel they are compromising their own integrity by bringing forward and suggesting amendments and changes to us.

I commend my noble friend Lord Hain on the different approach that he has taken. It is not one that I had considered before and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on it. My noble friend is suggesting that we amend the code for prosecutors, and he talks about how that could be done: it would take account of

“the likelihood of the accused re-offending … the time elapsed since the offence … the volume and seriousness of the crime, and … the character and behaviour of the accused since offending.”

The code would have to

“ensure that the views, interests and well-being of victims, and of the families of deceased victims, are considered when determining whether criminal proceedings should be instituted for a Troubles-related offence.”

I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that tonight. If he cannot give any satisfaction then I hope he will agree to have further meetings so that we can progress it. It seems to me that this is one of the biggest failings of the Bill, and it is what has caused so much upset and unhappiness among those who will be affected by this legislation.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to noble Lords. When the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and my noble friend Lord Morrow were referring to the lack of members of my own party sitting behind me tonight, I could not help but reflect on the famous poster, with which noble Lords behind me at least will be very familiar, from the period of the third home rule Bill, with the caption:

“Deserted! Well—I can stand alone.”

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Forgive me, my Lords, but I wanted to clarify that our position has always been that this Bill should never have been brought forward in this form until it had commanded some support. That has not changed, so it is not a pause or delay if nothing has changed. If there is a fundamental problem with the Bill, we would rather it be pulled back. My noble friend Lord Murphy and I met the Secretary of State and the Minister himself to say, “Don’t proceed with this Bill; we will work with you to find a better way.”

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I appreciate the noble Baroness’s tone and comments. The only point I was trying to make is that pausing or stopping the Bill, as some have suggested—or if it gets to the statute book and it were to be repealed by a Government of a different colour in 18 months’ time or so; although I do not predict that for one second—we risk, in those circumstances, prolonging this for at least another five years while there is consultation, attempts to reach consensus, which will probably never happen, and the need to draw up legislation, et cetera. During that period, as I have referenced before, more people will have passed away and more people’s memories will be defective, so the chances of getting information to people will be even more remote and the chances of prosecutions more so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

That is helpful; I am grateful. It is “the close family member” as well.

A number of issues arise from the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and the question of Clause 7 standing part. Amendment 52 seeks to delete the five-year deadline from the start of the ICRIR’s operation—it is a nifty little acronym—for seeking reviews of Troubles-related deaths and offences. I can understand where the Government are coming from in saying that the process cannot be open-ended, but could the Minister say why they settled on five years? What consultation or views expressed led to five years? What assessment was made of the risk of people refusing to engage because they think that they can be timed out given the five-year cut-off? Did he receive any representations on that? Was it discussed? Was there a consultation, or was it plucked out of thin air? That is what I seek some clarity on.

I would be grateful for any guidance from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, but it seems to me that Clause 7 creates restrictions on the use of material against a person in criminal proceedings where that material is obtained by or provided to the ICRIR by that person, but it does not affect the use of material in proceedings brought against any other person. That seems to be a contradiction that needs to be addressed, and perhaps the Minister can clarify that. I have read the clause several times—that is why I was slightly delayed in getting up. It seems strange in the context of what the Government are trying to achieve.

The debate on this has again shown the respect that the Committee and this House have for victims, survivors and all those affected by the Bill. It also shows some of the tweaks and changes that will need to be made to address the particular concerns that have been raised today.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very grateful to noble Lords for their contributions on this group of amendments. I will start with Clause 7. As the Committee knows, the Government’s overriding objective is to put in place mechanisms that have the potential to deliver better outcomes for those most affected by the Troubles, particularly victims and survivors, while seeking to help society look forward. The Bill is designed to help achieve those objectives.

The primary focus of this legislation is effective information recovery. The commissioner will conduct investigations for the purposes of providing answers to those who seek them. Central to that is Clause 7, which creates restrictions on the use of material against a person in criminal proceedings where that material was obtained by or provided to the ICRIR—that acronym of which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, is so fond—by that person. This is very much in line with the approach for information recovery included in the Stormont House agreement in 2014 and is extremely important in avoiding the creation of a disincentive for people to come forward and provide information to the ICRIR. In the Stormont House agreement there were similar provisions on evidence given to the ICIR, as was. It is very much in line with previous approaches to this issue.

The clause does not affect the use of material in proceedings brought against any other person, so it would be possible for a witness to provide information about an individual who was involved in a death or serious injury and for that information to be used in any subsequent prosecution against that individual. Equally, the clause does not affect the use of material obtained by a designated ICRIR—I am just going to say “the commission”—officer, for example when exercising police powers. This would ensure that the content of an interview given by a suspect while under caution, as part of a criminal investigation, could be used in criminal proceedings in the normal way.

I hope that goes some way to addressing the concerns of my noble friend Lord Weir of Ballyholme in respect of Clauses 7 and 23. If not, I am more than happy to sit down with him with my officials and go through it in greater detail, well in advance of the next stage of the Bill.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

3rd reading
Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I promise to be slightly less dramatic. I first want to express my sincere gratitude to all noble Lords who have participated in proceedings on this short Bill and to thank them for their thoughtful and sometimes challenging contributions, not least on the very odd occasion when the debate has strayed beyond the narrow confines of the Bill.

I welcome the positive engagement and constructive support for the Bill from all sides of the House and put on record my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and all noble Lords from Northern Ireland itself.

I also thank the Bill team at the Northern Ireland Office, officials in the Northern Ireland Assembly and, last but not least, my noble friend, Lord Younger of Leckie—not just for his support and very wise counsel on this piece of legislation, but also for his handling of much Northern Ireland business in your Lordships’ House in recent times.

The Bill has been debated extensively during its passage and I am sure that noble Lords will be relieved to hear that, in accordance with Standing Orders, I do not intend to rehearse its provisions again. It is a faithful implementation of a number of measures contained in the New Decade, New Approach document, which paved the way for the re-establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland in January 2020 and was itself the product of detailed and lengthy negotiations over a period of nearly three years.

The purpose of the Bill is to seek to give greater resilience to the institutions established under the 1998 Belfast agreement and to provide for greater continuity in decision-making. I am pleased that with the support of opposition parties we have been able to agree on early commencement of the important measures contained in it.

This Government remain deeply committed to the implementation of the Belfast agreement and its successors, and to building a stable, prosperous and shared Northern Ireland, within this United Kingdom, for everybody—a Northern Ireland where politics works, the economy grows and society is stronger and more united. I hope that this Bill, while in no way a panacea, can make a contribution to supporting those fundamental objectives. I beg to move

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I add our thanks to the Minister. As we have just heard in the drama a moment ago, a Minister’s life is not an easy one. I think that we are all still reeling from the shock resignation of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, who clearly cared a great deal about his work. His colleagues will mourn his loss from the Front Benches, and this House will admire his integrity. He may go down in history for the way he resigned, showing his integrity.

I thank the Minister for his work on this Bill, which is, I think, the first one that he has taken through the House, although his commitment, interest and work on Northern Ireland issues for many years have preceded him. In many ways this was a short, perhaps relatively non-controversial, Bill, though we had our moments. I thank him for the way in which he and his Bill team engaged with noble Lords across the House. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, if she were here, would say the same, and would thank him for his meetings.

We had our own dramatic moments as we prepared to come to the House to debate a particular amendment. We heard the Prime Minister say, at Prime Minister’s Question Time, that that amendment would not be moved, when we had all expected it in the afternoon. So perhaps this is the time for dramatic moments in the House. Nevertheless, I add our commitment and our thanks to the noble Lord. We await the further Bill on Northern Ireland that we were supposed to be getting and had expected—the legacy Bill—which will also, I am sure, involve detailed discussions, and I hope that he will be willing to engage in the same way with us on that Bill as on this.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Caine

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Basildon and Lady Suttie, for the amendments in this group.

I shall begin with Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. I acknowledge the importance of civic engagement to politics in Northern Ireland and I recall that at times of political difficulty in the past civil society has played an important role in trying to move things forward. Indeed, in the discussions that ultimately led to New Decade, New Approach, there was a body called “Make it Work”, which was a collection of people from across civil society in Northern Ireland. It had a positive impact on the political debate, bringing about a situation in which, eventually, the institutions were re-established.

However, I gently suggest to the noble Baroness that, interesting as her amendment is, using the ministerial code, which essentially deals with ministerial behaviour, as a vehicle for pushing forward policy outcomes and for public policy purposes might not be appropriate.

As the noble Baroness pointed out, we all know that the Civic Forum provided for in the 1998 agreement and the 1998 Act last met in 2002. Since then, various proposals have been put forward to revive it or something akin to it. The Stormont House agreement, in which I was involved seven years ago, almost to the day, proposed a more compact civic advisory panel. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, made clear, New Decade, New Approach proposed that that the existing compact civic advisory panel be reformed to include a renewed membership appointed by way of a public appointments process within six months of the Executive returning. This panel, whenever it is established, will be invited to propose the most appropriate model of engagement on specific issues, including one citizens’ assembly a year.

Having listened to the debate and taken on board the contributions of noble Lords across the Committee, including the noble Lords, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hay of Ballyore, and my noble friend Lord Lexden—who I am delighted to see in his place today, as he interviewed me for my first job 34 years ago in the Conservative research department—I note that this is a matter on which there are clearly differences of opinion.

In summary, I hope that the Executive will make progress on what was agreed in New Decade, New Approach. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, about the time that has elapsed since the re-establishment of the Executive. These are primarily matters for the Executive. I should also point out that the Civic Forum is already legislated for in Section 56 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, so I am not sure that further legislation in this respect is required when it is already on the statute book. On that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to consider withdrawing her amendment.

Amendment 7, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, seeks to change the definition of “cross-community support” in a way that goes beyond the proposals to reform the petition of concern in New Decade, New Approach, although I appreciate that the noble Baroness’s purpose in tabling the amendment is to have a broader debate on designations in the Assembly. That was brought out in noble Lords’ contributions. I point out that, if we were to move to the model as drafted in her amendment, it would give a small minority of MLAs who designate themselves “other” a veto across a wide range of Assembly business and, indeed, could almost paralyse the entire functioning of the Assembly. While I appreciate that these are important matters for debate, the amendment would be defective in operation.

I also appreciate that the current system of designation has not always been universally popular or accepted. In her comments, the noble Baroness reflected the long-standing position of the Alliance Party in Northern Ireland, which has consistently argued, over many years, that the designation system institutionalises sectarianism. It has proposed a move away from that and the introduction of weighed majorities, along with a move away from mandatory coalition to a more voluntary arrangement.

Whatever the merits of these—and one thing I am not going to do is speculate on the possible outcome of the Assembly election in May—the noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear me say that they are not changes that this House can unilaterally make during the passage of this Bill. At the time of the 1998 agreement, the current arrangements were considered the best way to secure cross-community consent for legislation. If, in the future, there should be sufficient consensus—I return to that phrase time and again—to move away from the current designation system to an updated model, we would be happy to look again at this question, but I suggest that this is not quite the moment and urge the noble Baroness not to move her amendment.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. Indeed, my amendment is probing. I think I said at the beginning that all the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Coaker are probing amendments to tease out a bit more of the Government’s thinking on a number of these issues. That has not always been easy, and I am grateful to the Minister for taking the time to respond. Had the Minister in the House of Commons responded on this point when it was put to him, we would not have felt the need to raise it today.

For us, this is an issue about trust and engagement in the political process, which all want to see improved across the UK. There are certainly areas where it is lacking. As the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, would say, too often it is the usual subjects. The whole point of something like this is to try to avoid the usual subjects and to reach out to people who do not always feel that their voice is heard, but have a contribution to make. That is something for which we should all strive at different times, however we are engaged in political life and at whatever level.

I am grateful to the Minister. It was never my intention to push this further, but it is useful to get the Government’s thinking and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.