Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, incitement to murder should never be mistaken for art. In the other place, plaques commemorate MPs who were killed while doing their democratic duty. Behind every name on those plaques are devastated families who grieve. Can the Minister explain why the Government decided not to contest the case that would have stopped Kneecap receiving grant funding? Can she update the House on the conversations the Government may have had with the Welsh Government, with whom they are now working so closely, on what steps they are taking to stop Kneecap performing at this year’s Green Man Festival in August, given the risk of further incitement that this invites?
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, rightly, there is widespread condemnation of two sets of comments: one on the apparent support for Hamas; and one which appears to be incitement to violence against MPs, which can never, ever be acceptable or allowed to happen. We have seen what has happened in recent years to Members of Parliament. We have seen Jo Cox and David Amess murdered, we have seen MPs attacked and we have seen MPs threatened, with people going to prison for threatening MPs. We should not ever take lightly any language that would appear to incite violence.
On the noble Lord’s point about the funding of the organisation, he will be aware that that was the MEGS funding. He is not quite accurate in his comments. In fact, that was an application for funding made and awarded under the last Government and then withdrawn. Following it being withdrawn, the group took the Government to court. It was a very expensive court case, as noble Lords will understand, which the Government lost. I think the court said it was “unlawful and procedurally unfair”. This Government took the decision not to appeal the case because of the costs involved. However, in the light of this, we are now reviewing the operation of the fund.
I have to say that I was surprised at the amount of funding that they received in 2023 and 2024 from different sources. There is something of an irony in an Irish republican group seeking funding from the British Government. The particular stream of funding that was awarded and withdrawn by the then Government, who lost the subsequent court case, is being reviewed by this Government.
Baroness Suttie (LD)
My Lords, from these Benches we utterly condemn these remarks. Incitement to violence against our democratically elected MPs is never acceptable. We should not underestimate the pain caused by these remarks to the families of Sir David Amess and Jo Cox, as well as to the families of Airey Neave and Ian Gow. Does the noble Baroness the Leader of the House agree that measures to promote social cohesion must now be a key priority? Will the Defending Democracy Taskforce take a lead on this?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
All these things must be taken into account, and looking at the way forward is crucial. The noble Baroness is a little younger than me, but she will recall that, if you came home from school and people had been name-calling, it was said that, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me”. That was wrong. That may be the case for the playground, but it is not the case in real life. Words really do hurt. For David Amess’s family and for Jo Cox’s family, the so-called apology is not enough. Any apology that includes in the statement that there is a “coordinated smear campaign” against those who are issuing the apology has not understood what the word “apology” really means.
It is inciting not just violence but hatred. It is inciting a mood that can lead to violence. Unless we treat each other with respect in the discourse that we have, in this place, in the other place and outside, we will see more of this. It is one thing to be provocative and to be challenging—we are not against being provocative—but the statements here go way beyond that and are totally unacceptable.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)
My Lords, I condemn the words and the alleged actions of Kneecap. As a democratic Irish nationalist, I condemn the assault and the attacks on the people of Gaza. However, undoubtedly, there is no justification for a call to action by Kneecap in respect of the murder of MPs, particularly Conservative MPs. I put that on record as somebody from Northern Ireland. Can my noble friend the Leader of the House say what more Kneecap should do to recognise the offence that they have caused to many people, here and back in Ireland, and to appreciate the responsibility that goes with the music platform that they have?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Baroness is absolutely right. I am sure that everyone hearing her words will recognise her sincerity in rightly condemning this. I am not sure that I am the best person to give advice to people who have caused offence. If they do not understand how damaging, offensive and wrong their words are—in the two incidents that have been complained about, and which are being investigated by the police, and in an inadequate so-called apology—then they are not in touch with what is happening in society generally. I cannot give them advice, but an apology is heartfelt and can be seen as heartfelt by those who are being offended. We have not seen that in this case.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, clearly the comments attributed to the band Kneecap go beyond anything that is remotely acceptable in a democratic society. While this is the worst example that has come to light, it is the latest in a line of incidents which, in 2022, saw them commission and unveil a mural of a petrol-bombed police Land Rover. Does the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal, as a former Northern Ireland Office Minister, agree that the hatred espoused by Kneecap seeks to undermine the actions of those who strive to improve community relations in Northern Ireland and build a stronger society? Does she agree that not only concert promoters but other platform providers should now take stock and assess whether this is a band with which they want to be associated?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. He and I have met people from across the community in Northern Ireland, in many different circumstances. Indeed, I was the Minister responsible for victims for about two years and I saw the effects on people who had suffered enormously throughout what is euphemistically called the Troubles.
We have all seen across the country protest groups which make their point through protest—sometimes very robustly, sometimes in ways that I do not care for—but a line has been crossed here. I struggle with that line. I was not aware of the incident in 2022, but, if that was the case, I therefore do not understand why the grant was awarded; that was a strange decision, given what the noble Lord has just said. There is a level at which we would want all groups to work together. My experience of Northern Ireland is that a number of people and community groups want all that put behind them. They do not want to hear this kind of language and this kind of incitement.
On the noble Lord’s point about promoters of events, I understand that one event has already cancelled their appearance and, in Germany I think a number of appearances have been cancelled. In any case, I am not sure that this is what people want to hear when they go to a concert. My experience of concerts is that they are happy, joyous and inclusive events. I think the promoters of other events will have heard the noble Lord’s words and those of others.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)
My Lords, as a former Member of the other place for 25 years, I was not only a target for IRA murder gangs but actual attempts were made on my life and those of my family. I ask the Leader of the House whether she accepts that this group, named after republican acts of terror, using the rant, “The only good Tory is a dead Tory. Kill your local MP”, openly supporting terrorists such as Hamas and Hezbollah, and propagating other anti-British bile to fill their bank accounts with hundreds of thousands of pounds, must be condemned, and not overlooked, and that the full rigours of the law must be exercised against them. Indeed, the law concerning the glorification of terrorism must be strengthened.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very powerful point. Where issues have been reported, they are of course being investigated by the police. The issues on terrorism are also being looked at. He is right to bring that to the attention of the House.
Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
My Lords, is the Leader able to tell the House what has to be done to actually lose government funding in this type of situation? It seems to me that Kneecap are trying to play the country, or the system, given that they put in their public statement:
“Kneecap’s message has always been—and remains—one of love, inclusion, and hope”.
This cannot be supported. I hope that the Leader will consider seriously whether this group should lose their funding and, indeed, be banned.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I have already answered part of the noble Baroness’s question. On the words she quoted, saying something does not make it true. That is certainly the case here. Because of what happened when they were awarded funding before, we are reviewing the circumstances of that fund. It should never, ever be acceptable for a group such as this to be awarded funding by the Government.