Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

As an issue of principle, my understanding is that that is the situation. However, in order that noble Lords might understand it in more detail, I will ensure that a letter is sent to my noble friend and a copy placed in the Library in order that we can make the current situation clear. As I listened to this debate and read the Hansard report of our previous one, it became clear that this is a complex issue in which we are, in practice, moving between the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners on a fair, equal and open basis and the standards by which we would expect the Civil Service in Northern Ireland to operate. Some of these issues are devolved but it is important to be clear about which safeguards are already in place, at which level, and which points are devolved. I give way to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She is trying to be very clear and I wish I could be equally clear at this point. The noble Baroness used two phrases that give me concern. At some points she talked about the independence of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service Commission but in her letter, and at other times, she referred to the independence and impartiality of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service for which the commission is, at some levels, responsible. That is where there is some confusion.

We are just a few days away from Third Reading and I would be very concerned if an amendment were tabled quite late in the day and the only discussion we had was on the Floor of your Lordships’ House. Would it be possible for the Minister, before tabling the government amendment at Third Reading, to discuss it with noble Lords who have raised concerns to ensure that they are content with its wording and feel that it does what they are asking for it to do? The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, is quite right. We are very late in the day to be at this stage with the matter not resolved. It would be very helpful if the Minister could agree to circulate the amendment and discuss it with noble Lords prior Third Reading.

[Baroness Randerson]

One our problems is that the Bill refers to the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners but the amendment goes beyond that because, as has been pointed out, this is a miscellaneous provisions Bill and things are put into it which add to its scope. In attempting to respond to the debate, we have all been discussing the qualities of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland—its free and open appointment and independence. We have therefore been ranging well beyond the point in the Bill. I am absolutely happy to organise a meeting with noble Lords who are concerned about this issue. It is essential to have a full discussion of any proposed amendment and ensure, as far as possible, that noble Lords are satisfied with the direction of the amendment.

As the noble Baroness has pointed out, there is an issue with timing. We have Third Reading next week so it is essential that we move on under a realistic timetable. The Government are absolutely committed to having public consultation before making fundamental changes to the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners. We are not considering devolution of anything without wide public consultation and the agreement of the Assembly. We have a relatively limited period of time in which to produce an amendment that works within those parameters.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this debate has been interesting, as was the one in Committee, although that was without the wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble; I say his name carefully. We have benefited enormously from the experience of noble Lords here this evening: this is the value of debates in your Lordships’ House on this issue.

Clearly, we all want to ensure that governance in Northern Ireland is based on a strong cross-community partnership. I readily accept that there is no system for electing the First and Deputy First Ministers that we all would consider perfect. Indeed, the current system may not be perfect. Let us not forget where Northern Ireland had been during the four and a half years leading up to 2006. It was a major step forward to have the institutions up and running again after being suspended for that time. That was the purpose of the St Andrews agreement, the ongoing discussions which came from it and the legislation subsequently passed by your Lordships’ House and the other place. For three and a half of those four and a half years I was a Minister in Northern Ireland, and it was a difficult, tense time, as noble Lords here tonight will know better than I. When I flew out to Belfast on my first day, I was told I should expect to be a Minister for about six months. When I left three and a half years later, the Assembly was still not restored. It was a very serious and difficult time.

Since the St Andrews agreement changed the arrangements, we have had the longest period of stable government in Northern Ireland in a generation. That is not to be underestimated or dismissed lightly. Many positives proceeded from that agreement. I understand why this amendment has been brought forward and the reasons for it, but it takes apart one part of the agreement that was agreed in your Lordships’ House and the other place through legislation. We have heard very eloquently from the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, why the popular 1998 agreement for electing First Ministers and Deputy First Ministers required the direct involvement of the Assembly. He and others welcomed that very clear demonstration of cross-community support. If we were to return to the pre-St Andrews system at this stage, it would have to be done by cross- community consensus and agreement, and I really do not think that we have achieved that at present. I understand the reason for tabling the amendment, but at the moment we do not have the agreement and cross-community support necessary to achieve it. We have to understand the reasons why that came about.

In this debate and others that we have had today, wider issues have been raised by several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Trimble, about the disengagement of local people in Northern Ireland. We have talked about it in terms of the Assembly, but there is also the wider political context. That is not peculiar to Northern Ireland, but I understand the concerns about it relating to Northern Ireland. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to it as a destabilising trend. All sides of your Lordships’ House want confidence in the system and the Assembly. We want the stability of the Assembly to be entrenched and enhanced. That will not be done just by the institutions or the apparatus of democracy; it is far deeper than that. Perhaps there may be an opportunity for further discussion in your Lordships’ House—I do not think that tonight is the time—to address those issues to bring the entrenched stability that I think we all want.

We do not support the amendment at this time, while understanding the reasons why it has been proposed.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I want to preface my response by referring specifically to comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis. Noble Lords have been in the Chamber this afternoon and may not be aware that I have issued a Written Statement that deals with that issue. I do not feel that it is appropriate to try to tackle it in this Chamber at this time, because it is not part of this debate.

I turn to the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, will be aware that the Government opposed amendments on this issue both in Committee in the other place and in Committee in this House. Despite the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, we retained our opposition here. Again, we will maintain that position to this amendment on this occasion.

I recognise the noble Lord’s views on the matter, and he clearly has a close personal interest in the issue. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, highlighted in Committee and again just now, the St Andrews agreement, which led to this mechanism, ultimately led to the re-establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It would be, to say the least, an unhelpful step if we were to start to unpick certain aspects of it.

I acknowledge the noble Lord’s views on whether the revised method for electing the First and Deputy First Ministers at Stormont was discussed at St Andrews. It is certainly the case that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, made that point in Committee. However, the revised method was enacted through the legislation which followed the St Andrews agreement in 2006. That legislation was endorsed and passed through this House. Whatever the merits of the amendment in the abstract, it would command limited support in Northern Ireland. Very probably, it would get virtually no cross-community support. It would provoke serious opposition and potential instability.

The current Northern Ireland settlement is imperfect, but it is what we have. I welcome the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and her party on this issue. Her words echo my thoughts.

The noble Lord, Lord Bew, made some very important points. In response, I would say that the Government are acutely aware of the tensions and difficulties in Northern Ireland and within the Executive. That is one reason why we do not want to destabilise the settlement either by changing or attempting to change the mechanism for selecting the First Minister and Deputy First Minister or by involving ourselves in the devolution settlement on issues that are devolved. It is important that we do not disturb the situation. That does not mean that we are sleepwalking, or allowing Northern Ireland to sleepwalk, into any unravelling of the current situation. I agree strongly with the views of the noble Baroness. With every month that passes, the institutions of Northern Ireland become more firmly established in the country and as part of the politics, and it becomes less likely that they will hit the sort of problems that occurred soon after devolution was established.

As I highlighted in Committee, reopening old debates of this nature is liable to create a distraction that would shift the focus of Northern Ireland politics away from the pressing challenges that Northern Ireland faces—issues such as community division and economic renewal. I hope the noble Lord would agree that those issues should take precedence at this time and, in doing so, will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Baroness Randerson

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

If my understanding of the noble Baroness’s lengthy speech is correct, she is not arguing that there should be delay as regards the principle but is saying that it is absolutely accepted by the Government, and is talking now only about process. Is that correct?

[Baroness Randerson]

Absolutely. The noble Baroness is entirely correct. I had hoped I had made it clear in my opening remarks on this issue that the Government fully support the principle and intend to ensure that safeguards are put in place. However, they believe that there should be public consultation to ensure that those safeguards are as full and detailed as is necessary. The Government also believe that although the intention of the noble Lord’s amendment is entirely satisfactory in many respects, it is deficient in technical terms because the safeguards it specifies are nowhere near detailed enough compared with those for the Civil Service in England.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this is an issue that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has returned to in the past and I am sure he will do so again. I do not feel we can support it here today. Clearly, as I recall, the time leading up to the St Andrews agreement was tense in Northern Ireland. I seem to recall various deadlines in reaching agreements so that the Assembly could be re-established after what was then four and a half years of suspension—a situation that nobody wanted to be in at the time. The agreements made there were not just agreements made there and then. There were discussions for several weeks after, before the legislation came to your Lordships’ House. My noble friend Lord Rooker took the legislation through your Lordships’ House at that time. Legislation giving effect to the St Andrews agreement and ongoing discussions was passed by both Houses.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, whom I have known for many years—indeed I followed him into his department, DETI, in Northern Ireland—has never been a great fan of the St Andrews agreement. He has had criticisms of it for some time. However, there is no doubt that that agreement led to the re-establishment of the Assembly and the process we have now. I really feel that it is not appropriate to unpick just some parts. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, made an important point about the ongoing review by the Assembly. However, it would be unfortunate in this legislation to unpick one part of the St Andrews agreement, even though I understand the concerns raised, and it is not something that we will support today.

[Baroness Randerson]

I have listened with great interest to noble Lords. I will keep my comments short because noble Lords who have taken part in the debate have spoken with the advantages of experience and expertise, which come with having been part of the events that we are discussing. They were key actors in the events. Therefore, the role for me here is to lay out the Government’s point of view on the amendment. In this, we agree with the noble Baroness that it is not appropriate to unpick one part of the agreement.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Government opposed amendments on this issue in Committee in the Commons, and that is the position they intend to maintain today. I recognise the noble Lord’s strongly held views on this matter and I can sympathise with a lot of what he and my noble friend Lord Alderdice have to say. In some ways, it may be a welcome change to revert to the pre-St Andrews method of electing the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland, involving as it did an overt demonstration of cross-community support and—as the noble Lord pointed out—the involvement of the Assembly.

However, the St Andrews agreement, and the subsequent legislation, is the basis on which devolved government was restored in 2007. The arrangements by which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister are nominated by designations in the Assembly emerged at St Andrews. This was a change, as the noble Lord said, from the 1998 agreement. There was one change subsequently, with the effect that the largest party in the Assembly nominated the First Minister, but the basic principle comes from St Andrews and I do not think we should now move from it. It would be highly disruptive. The reality is that such changes as those proposed by the noble Lord would require a degree of cross-community support that is still lacking.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I find myself in great sympathy with the amendment posed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. He and I have discussed this before. I regret that my experience of trying to raise this issue with Ministers was identical to that of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I was leading for us on Home Office issues on the then Crime and Courts Bill, and when this issue first came up I raised it with Ministers on the Bill team. The advice I was given was not to draw attention to it. That is pretty horrendous, because people knew there were concerns and issues to be addressed. I believe that early intervention and early political engagement from both Governments could have addressed those issues.

On a number of occasions, on the Floor of this House and outside, I asked Ministers about it and found myself in the curious position of discussing with Home Office Ministers what was happening and being told it was a matter for the NIO; and when I raised it with the Secretary of State at the briefing on Northern Ireland issues, I was told it was a matter for the Home Office. So the NIO was telling me it was the Home Office and the Home Office was telling me it was the NIO, and I was really worried that this just fell between two stools.

Devolution does not mean disengagement. The British Government had a responsibility when setting up the National Crime Agency—or, as I now call it, the nearly-National Crime Agency, because it is not a national crime agency—to ensure that very early on, when the proposal was first discussed, there were discussions between both Governments and between the political parties. I hold David Ford in very high regard; I regard him as a friend. He is, however, one person in one Government. In the old days, under the Labour Government, there would have been political engagement and political discussion on something as important as this. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, have indicated, the difficulties and the problems are not just for Northern Ireland, but also for those who are genuinely trying to fight crime across the whole of the UK, who are finding themselves hampered because of this gap in provision in Northern Ireland because the Government did not properly engage. Therefore, I support the principle of what the noble Lord, Lord Empey said, but I do not feel that I can support it as a whole because there has to be that engagement first. Merely saying “it will apply” does not resolve the issue.

Will the Minister answer some questions? Can she tell me—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Empey, also referred to this—what has taken place since the legislation received Royal Assent to ensure discussions and engagement in Northern Ireland so that we can move to a position where the National Crime Agency is a genuinely national crime agency? What has happened so far? Also, what will happen next? Can she give the House an assurance that both Secretaries of State—the Home Secretary and the Northern Ireland Secretary—will engage in Northern Ireland to ensure that we can have a National Crime Agency that fulfils the needs of Northern Ireland in the way they should be met?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for this amendment because it has given us the opportunity to discuss a very important issue and it has given me the opportunity to clarify the position of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland. Given the sensitivity of policing in Northern Ireland, and the potential gravity of the impact of this amendment, I have assumed that this is a probing amendment. It was clear at Second Reading that your Lordships consider the role of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland to be of great interest and significance. That has been re-emphasised here this afternoon.

To be clear, the National Crime Agency is operating in Northern Ireland, but as a consequence of the Northern Ireland Executive’s failure to agree to take forward a legislative consent Motion, the Agency’s powers and activities in Northern Ireland to tackle serious and organised crime are restricted. The NCA is providing support and expertise to partners in Northern Ireland and continues to take forward its own investigations within the scope of the limitations on its powers and responsibilities. We, however, remain keen to extend its remit to cover crime falling within devolved responsibilities, if agreement can be reached on this within the Northern Ireland Executive; the Crime and Courts Act provides the necessary order-making powers to achieve this.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I asked a specific question about what arrangements had been put in place in discussions that had taken place prior to the Bill coming forward and what is taking place now. I appreciate that the noble Baroness may not be able to give me that information now but I am happy for her to write to me.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thought I had done my best to answer that question but I will, of course, examine the record tomorrow and if I can provide noble Lords with further information I will be very happy to write and provide further detail.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this is a very sensitive and complex issue. Of all the meetings and conversations I had and events that I went to when I was a Minister in Northern Ireland, the ones that had the most profound effect on me were those during the years when I was a Victims Minister from 2003 to 2006. If I look back, I think now that I was singularly unequipped to deal with some of the issues that I faced. People would tell me their life stories, what had happened to them and about the impact on them and their families. They would come from both sides of the community: I recall the anger of the Ballymurphy victims as well as the quiet resilience of those RUC widows left to bring children up on their own. Among all of them, I felt that it would be very hard for me to define who was a victim or who felt they were a victim.

I did some of the work on the definition taken in 2006, although my right honourable friend David Hanson took the order through. It is extraordinarily difficult to try to define who is a victim and who is not. I totally understand the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, having spoken to so many people affected by physical and psychological trauma and damage during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about people’s ongoing needs, there is that difference between individual needs and the collective needs of the community. I was also Health Minister at the same time. Trying to provide an adequate health service for the needs left by those 30 years is extraordinarily difficult. The challenge has not yet been met, in respect of both physical and mental health issues.

People who you talked to were scarred by what had happened to them and damaged by what they had seen and heard; some were damaged by what they had done themselves or by what members of their family had been involved in. An extraordinarily wide range of people were considered to be victims and felt themselves to be victims. That is why, in the 2006 Act, there was that fairly wide near-attempt at a definition. The definition we take is of those who felt that they had suffered as a consequence of those years. I am not defining some as having suffered more than others—clearly some have been through the most terrible and horrendous experiences and others have been able to cope better with what they have experienced. However, in each case, if somebody came forward and felt that their life had been altered and that they had suffered as a result, whether due to life-changing injuries or life-changing mental health issues, we did not feel able then, and I still would not know how, to differentiate any kind of hierarchy.

More than 3,000 people lost their lives and thousands more were injured and affected. These are sensitive and complex issues. Obviously those from Northern Ireland speak with far greater authority and understanding, and with direct experience, of the issues than I ever can, but our approach has been consistent and ongoing in support of a comprehensive and inclusive process to deal with the past. We stand by that and I hope that the Assembly has also asked for the British Government to be involved in that process. It would be a major step forward if the Government were to take a lead. There needs to be an inclusive and comprehensive process in Northern Ireland, covering the two areas that the noble Lord spoke about: one dealing with the physical needs and the other trying to help a community that is still scarred by what happened.

I remember many years ago, while Nelson Mandela was in prison, talking to a white South African involved in the ANC who had come over to talk to people. He commented on some people—white South Africans—who were hedging their bets, as I think somebody in the audience he was speaking to put it. Somebody said, “They’re just trying to save their skins”. He replied, “We’re all trying to save our skins”. There is a very similar situation in this case, with a whole community whose members are all trying to heal together. We have to have the British Government at the heart of that, with the Irish Government. There is a legacy of the Troubles that is difficult to address but, collectively, it can be done. It is not easy—there is certainly no consensus to start with and there are points at which it will be very difficult to gain consensus along the way, but it may be gained on very small areas.

I fully understand why the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has brought this amendment forward, but one of the difficulties with it is that definition. One of the things we looked at in 2006 was the issue of children whose family had perhaps been involved in terrorist activities and who were orphaned as a result or whose lives were changed. They were victims and, as children, were innocent. Once you get into definitions, it does become more complex. I remember a particular case I dealt with where a mother wanted her son, who had been accused of terrorist activities and had been shot by the Army, to be vindicated. That has now been done and it was totally accepted that her son was never in the wrong but had we taken the definition at that time, he would have been labelled a terrorist. Things have changed over the years.

We cannot support the amendment but we understand what is behind it. What I hope the Minister takes away from this debate is that the British Government need to be at the heart of a process. I know that the Assembly has called for that process and for talks on how we deal with the past to start. A wide range of people need to play their part in letting Northern Ireland deal with the past and trying to heal some of it.

[Baroness Randerson]

I think that noble Lords might agree with me when I say that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has saved the most complex and intractable issue until last. In a sense, all the other issues we have discussed here today flow from the problems associated with the issue of victims.

The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, relates to the definition of a victim in the context of the role of the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors. Many noble Lords here today will have far more direct knowledge than I about the impact of the conflict in Northern Ireland on people’s lives over more than three decades. I recognise that those of us who do not have personal experience of the conflict must approach this debate with considerable humility and great care. I recognise the concerns that the noble Lord is making clear here today. Like the noble Baroness, I have met people in Northern Ireland who have explained to me the nature of the impact that the Troubles have had on their lives and the result of the conflict in terms of the damage that it has done to them. These are people who still suffer today.

Noble Lords will be aware of the recent talks chaired by Dr Richard Haass, where the right approach to dealing with Northern Ireland’s past was debated in detail. A key element of the approach taken during those talks was that victims and survivors should be central to any efforts to deal with the past. The Government commend the progress made by the parties in Northern Ireland in dealing with these issues during the Haass talks and I hope that progress will continue to be made in the future. As I said earlier in this debate, there are still meetings going on between the party leaders, and the Government remain hopeful that progress will be made.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has made a moving argument. However, the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors is the responsibility of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. Any change to the definition would require cross-community support in the Assembly. The Government are particularly anxious not to cut across the initiatives in the Haass talks. To address the issue here, in this Bill, might have a negative impact on the ability of the parties in Northern Ireland to develop an inclusive process of dealing with the past. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that the all-party talks, building on progress made by Dr Haass, still represent the best chance of making progress on these matters. In the mean time, I hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the debate and I thank all speakers for their thoughtful and constructive contributions. Their depth of experience and the imaginative approach that has been adopted across the House augurs very well for the quality of the debate that we will have in the future as we examine amendments and go through the Bill clause by clause. I know that many of today’s speakers are truly expert on the matters under discussion and clearly their views are very valuable.

I am pleased that so many in this House felt able to express support for some of the provisions in the Bill. The Government have been mindful of the need to seek as much consensus as possible, particularly on the constitutional matters dealt with in the legislation. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that possibly our definitions of “consensus” are different. Consensus that there is a problem is probably the starting point with many of these things, although consensus on the solution may not come until some hard work has been done in searching for that solution to the problem.

I welcome the support for the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, and should like to address one of the issues that he and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised concerning the NCA. The Crime and Courts Act includes order-making powers so that the NCA arrangements can be fully extended to Northern Ireland when the Northern Ireland Assembly gives its consent. Unfortunately, as a result of not securing consent, the activities of the NCA in Northern Ireland are restricted and the level of support that the NCA can provide to the PSNI in the fight against serious and organised crime is reduced. However, I emphasise in particular to the noble Baroness that David Ford, the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, is continuing to discuss this matter and is seeking to get agreement with the Northern Ireland parties. The Home Secretary remains open to proposals for arrangements to ensure that the NCA is answerable for its activities in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for that explanation and I apologise that this issue is not quite clear to me. I am trying to understand whether the Government were engaged in discussions with Northern Ireland. I appreciate David Ford’s role—he has been very good on this—but my query concerns the Government’s role in this.

[Baroness Randerson]

It is important to remember that justice is now a devolved issue. Although the Secretary of State and indeed the Home Secretary take a very proactive approach in liaising with the Justice Minister, the decision has to lie with the Northern Ireland Executive. I understand the sense of frustration felt by many noble Lords when we often talk here about issues that are devolved, but the whole stream of thought behind the Bill is to enable the devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland to operate more as the other devolved bodies do, so that Northern Ireland becomes less of a special case. In this particular case, the Government are very concerned that there should be a solution, and they are actively working towards obtaining that solution in a way that is acceptable across the parties in Northern Ireland.