Immigration: Regulations

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

A number of issues were raised in that very distressing report by Channel 4 which we are investigating. Stephen Shaw will also be investigating them as part of his independent review.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I also raise the Channel 4 documentary, which, as the noble Lord said, shocked and distressed us all. On 8 March, my noble friend Lady Bakewell asked about female staffing levels in Yarl’s Wood. The Minister reminded your Lordships’ House that Serco was contractually committed to delivering a level of 66% by 2015—that is, now. Following that debate, the chief executive of Serco, Rupert Soames OBE, wrote to me to say that the number of female officers was being increased. His letter says that Serco is working to increase this to 60%—not 66%—and “aim to achieve it” by the end of 2015. Will the noble Lord confirm the correct figure? Is it a contractual and therefore legal obligation to increase the number of women officers and what happens to Serco if it fails?

[Lord Bates]

Serco was offered that contract. One of the principal concerns which many people have had, and which the Women for Refugee Women report also identified, was that there were insufficient female detention officers in that facility and that their numbers needed to be increased. One of the conditions put out before renewing the contract to the tender organisation was that it needed to increase the proportion of female officers. The figure I gave was 65% or 66%; the chief executive may now be saying 60%. I will certainly look into that; I will speak with him and of course will write to the noble Baroness and ensure that she gets the right information. However, the principle is that we need more female detention staff to look after female inmates.

Sexual Violence against Girls and Women

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is absolutely right in that regard. Of course, that is the purpose of the website, “This is Abuse”, which is targeted at young people. It has been viewed by some 2 million young people. That is the purpose behind the new campaign, What is Consent?, which sets out what is involved: the capacity to consent, the freedom to consent and the steps taken to obtain consent, which must be present in all relations of a sexual nature. The noble Baroness is also absolutely right that more needs to be done.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, part of the problem is that young girls who are manipulated and sexually abused have been groomed to believe that they are in a consensual relationship. While there can be legal arguments about what consent is when a case gets to court, surely it is even more important to protect those young girls before any such abuse takes place. Let me press the Government again: given that the value of sex and relationship education is widely understood and known to be effective, why are the Government refusing to ensure that it is compulsory in all schools?

[Lord Bates]

I think that best practice is happening in most schools. It is certainly compulsory in all state schools. There was a case related to certain freedoms being given to academies, which covered this. However, the expectation is not that academies can somehow disregard this, but that they will use their freedom to improve on the minimum standards for the teaching of sex and relationship education that were set out by the Secretary of State in 2001.

Police: Complaints

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I could not agree with the noble Lord more.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from those two questions, there is another point to be made. The Minister will know that we are concerned about the sharp rise in the number of complaints being made to the IPCC and he will also be aware of our view that a more effective police standards authority is needed to tackle the most serious cases involving corruption and force integrity. Have the Government undertaken any research to understand why the greatest number of complaints that have been made are about police neglect and failure of duty as well as about individual police officers being rude or intolerant? The points that have been made by my noble friends reinforce that. Since this Government took office, in my county of Essex alone, we have lost almost 600 police officers, with even more cuts planned of around 200 officers. When the Government planned such a dramatic cut in police numbers, was any assessment made of the impact that that would have on the quality of service that the police would be able to provide to the public?

[Lord Bates]

A couple of issues underline those questions. One is that some very high-profile, major systemic failures have been uncovered, not least the one raised by my noble friend Lord Scriven in his supplementary question. But we have two bits of evidence. One is that crime has fallen by 20% since 2010 while at the same time we have seen the level of complaints against the police go up. That is why we are having a review: to understand why that is and what more can be done while at the same time recognising the incredible job that our police forces do in keeping us safe.

Yarl’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened to the Government’s Answer with great care. We are told again that the most recent inspection found Yarl’s Wood to be,

“a safe and respectful centre which is continuing to improve”.

The Minister said, in repeating today’s response:

“As soon as we were made aware of the recent allegations, Home Office officials visited Yarl’s Wood to provide assurances that all detainees were being treated in a safe and dignified manner”.

How could they provide such assurances without an investigation? What was the evidence on which they based such assurances? Serious allegations of abuse are well documented, such as those from women who have had male staff enter their rooms when they are naked, in bed or even on the toilet. We have heard that a pregnant woman suffered a miscarriage without medical treatment and of guards referring to women as “animals”.

The Government’s response today refers to Serco’s response. What about the Government’s response? Yarl’s Wood is the Government’s responsibility. On 28 January, when I raised this issue in your Lordships’ House, the Minister said of the allegations about Yarl’s Wood that,

“if the information is supplied to us, it will be investigated very thoroughly indeed”.—[Official Report, 28/1/15; col. 197.]

Has such a thorough investigation—which must be independent and specific to the allegation at Yarl’s Wood—started? If not, why not?

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness is right to be concerned and shocked about this. I watched that documentary on Channel 4, and quite frankly I was sickened. I think most decent people will have been sickened by the attitudes that were on display there. That is the reason why we have had that immediate reaction to this, and why there is the Stephen Shaw review into the entire detention estate.

I have to say that this is a story which is not going to go away. There are a number of things coming. The first is the Stephen Shaw inquiry, which is coming down the path. The independent monitoring board will be publishing its latest report, and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons will be visiting again for an independent review. We have had the very thought-provoking report from the all-party group published just today by Sarah Teather, and there is also the work being done for women refugees, which raises a great deal of concern. So we are very conscious that there is a lot of evidence building, and pressure is mounting on Serco. We are very much on their case and watching them like a hawk. I have to say to the noble Baroness that we are following a process here. Evidence has been produced; we will be acting; and we expect Serco to act in the interim.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of these amendments. It is helpful and we certainly welcome them. I am also grateful to him for recognising the persistence of my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey on this matter. When he first raised the issue the Government were initially reluctant to take it on board not because they were not supportive of what he was trying to do, which was to think differently around these issues with the child as a victim. Even though the child might be engaged in sending sexually explicit messages or photographs, the child was still the victim. I referred at the time to a case that I was aware of whereby an older man was pretending to be a 14 year- old girl in order to get a real 14 year-old girl to send messages and photographs of herself quite willingly. But she was clearly a victim and was being exploited. We are grateful to my noble friend for his persistence and to the Government for taking this issue on board.

We also welcome the change in the language of the legislation by removing references to child prostitution and child pornography. Both are child abuse. Children cannot agree to be prostitutes. If money is changing hands, it is because they are victims. This shows how thinking has moved on. The noble Lord may not recall but, during the debates on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, I proposed amendments brought to me by the Police and Crime Commissioner for Greater Manchester, Tony Lloyd, about being able to close down premises being used for child grooming. The response from the Government Minister at that time, Norman Baker, was that the prostitution laws should be used. However, of course, those laws could not be used because the children were not prostitutes. Even though they may have been receiving some kind of payment at the time, it was clear that they were victims.

The only concern I would raise is on the language in subsection (2) of the new clause proposed in Amendment 4. Perhaps further progress is to be made. In the other place we proposed amending the reference to,

“offers or provides sexual services to another person in return for payment or a promise of payment”.

That talked in the old-fashioned language and we tried to move on by including,

“prepares to engage in, or engages in, sexual activity with”,

rather than “provides … for payment”. However, welcome as that change would have been, it does not detract from the fact that the Government are ensuring that that is an offence and recognise it as exploitation and abuse.

We welcome these amendments, which are a step forward. I know that my noble friend Lord Harris would join us in welcoming the support from the Government for his proposals.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

My Lords, I briefly want to say that this is a real sea-change in attitude. I am delighted to hear the Opposition Front Bench because I have, in the past, argued with Ministers on other Benches who could not see the point of changing the word “prostitution” because they said that a crime was still being committed. Everyone now has understood that the language changes the attitude to the child and we are now really seeing children as victims. I am enormously grateful for this sea-change. It will change the way in which young people and children are dealt with. We know that the police have had a huge change in attitude in the way in which they work with these young people. The All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children, which looked at working with the police, heard from them on numerous occasions how helpful it would be if we perceived children as victims and no longer as perpetrators of crimes in this sexual area. I am immensely grateful to the Government for this work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Before the Minister sits down, could she clarify something about the amendment numbers? She referred to Amendments 24 and 25, neither of which is in this group: they were consequential amendments in group 1. The issue of FGM protection orders attracting civil legal aid seems to be covered by Amendments 50 and 51. According to the amendment list, government Amendment 24 is in group 1 and government Amendment 25 is in group 8.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is correct.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

So are we discussing those amendments now? Have they been wrongly grouped? Or are the amendment numbers that the noble Baroness has incorrect? Are we, in fact, discussing Amendments 50 and 51 rather than Amendments 24 and 25?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I apologise to the House. Let me clarify the fact that we are debating Amendments 50 and 51.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I found this quite extraordinary when I read about it in the newspapers. That is not because I do not think that the Government should be taking a strong line—I admire that—and not because we need to take action against FGM—many of us have spoken about it—but because we had an in-depth debate in which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and I held slightly different views about mandatory reporting. When we looked at mandatory reporting in its broader sense, it was clear that the differences between us were all about unintended consequences and not having thought through the issue from beginning to end. I was under the impression that mandatory reporting was to be taken away and there would be an in-depth look at the issue with a different sort of consultation, after which we would come at it again. FGM is at the most complicated end of mandatory reporting, as we have heard from my noble friends, so I had assumed that it would be included in that further debate. I am surprised that the provision has been brought forward in this way, even though most of us would want any possible action taken to prevent FGM.

My final point is that this clause cuts across the basic principle that the child’s needs are paramount, something which is repeated in all our children’s legislation. Here, the child’s needs are no longer paramount—the community wish to take action becomes paramount. I hope that this will be taken away and looked at again in relation to the arguments which have been made.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, what is always clear when we debate FGM issues is how complex they are. I think that the law of unintended consequences has been discussed throughout our debates. I have just read again the letter from the Minister, Karen Bradley, to Seema Malhotra MP setting out why the Government have brought this new clause forward. A consultation was held on 5 December on how to introduce mandatory reporting for FGM. As other noble Lords have said, it is a little strange that we did not have the benefit of that consultation when we held our previous discussions. It would have been helpful to have the consultation and the Government’s response, but they were not made available to us, although the other place did have the benefit of seeing them when it discussed these issues.

The purport of the amendments which have been put forward in your Lordships’ House on this issue is not just to deal with the problem afterwards, but to prevent it happening in the first place. It is also about sending a strong message that FGM is something we cannot tolerate at all. I have some concerns about mandatory reporting, but it is to be hoped that they can be addressed in the guidance and the review process. I think it is clear that we need to ensure that where health professionals are aware of instances of FGM, they should report them so that action, whether that be medical or legal, can be taken. The concerns which have been raised are ones that the Government will want to address when they are considering the guidance. If they find that there is any evidence of women not presenting to medical practitioners for care during pregnancy, it should be examined.

[Baroness Meacher]

I just want to check whether the noble Baroness agrees that reporting to the police could actually deter families from taking these children to the health services. In saying that reporting needs to happen, I am very worried if this goes to the police.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am not sure that I accept that a family whose daughter had undergone FGM and became seriously ill would not want that to be dealt with. It is quite a big jump to make, to put pressure on a family in that way. The noble Baroness says that they will not, but if that becomes evident, the Government will have to look. As I said, I have slightly conflicted views on this, but the House of Commons, I am sure, had the benefit of the consultation—although that was slightly split. I look forward to the response from the noble Baroness the Minister.

I come back to the point on legal aid. One issue that I raised with the Minister in earlier debates was whether legal aid would be available for FGM orders. At that time, she was unable to confirm that they would. We raised the point that without such legal aid, which is available for forced marriage orders, there would be no FGM orders. The point about prevention, which the noble Baroness made, is that unless you have the orders, there is not going to be prevention of FGM. We have had several conversations; the noble Baroness promised to write to me on several occasions, and I think she was frustrated that no correspondence was forthcoming. I am pleased now that the Government have confirmed that legal aid will be available for FGM orders. So we support the new clause, but I would be grateful if she could address some of the points raised in this debate, because justified concerns have been raised. That does not take away from the fact that the whole purpose of this is to try to prevent FGM from ever occurring and women from suffering such abuse.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is probably best to start with the point that not only is FGM illegal but it has been illegal for 30 years, and that all healthcare professionals—indeed, all professionals —who come into contact with children have a general safeguarding duty to those children. That is the underlying issue within the law, and it has been so, as I said, for three decades. As noble Lords have said, FGM is a terribly complex issue, and there are things beyond the law that we also need to do in terms of changing the culture and the practice of FGM.

I will start with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Patel. The mandatory duty to report has actually received support from organisations such as the Royal College of Nursing and the Royal College of Midwives, but the noble Lord pointed out the concerns raised by the BMA. It has actually been supportive of the majority of the FGM measures in the Bill but it has highlighted some concerns in respect of the mandatory reporting duty, particularly what it means for victims. The Government appreciate that introducing a mandatory reporting duty will impact on many different sectors, and we recognise that this is very complex. However, we believe that it will be an important step forward in tackling FGM.

FGM is already a hidden crime, and introducing a clear mandatory duty will provide clarity for professionals on their responsibilities to report to the police. It will also lessen the onus on the girls to report FGM by putting responsibility on those whose job it is to safeguard girls who have been victims of what is a crime and what is child abuse. Of course, we recognise that there are existing legal and professional responsibilities in relation to safeguarding, and the new duty will have to be seen in the context of the existing statutory guidance—for example, Working Together to Safeguard Children.

Some concern has been expressed that the duty may act as a barrier to individuals accessing healthcare services. The Government recognise this risk, which is why we are clear that there will be no requirement for professionals to work outside their usual professional duties to actively seek out cases of FGM. We have focused the duty on known cases of FGM rather than suspected ones, and the new FGM unit working with government departments is conducting a programme of outreach with professionals and front-line communities, which will explain how the new duty, in tandem with other government reforms, will work in practice. We are also updating the multiagency guidelines on FGM and putting them on a statutory basis to support effective implementation of the duty.

There were also concerns about cases being referred to the police and the fear that this may act as a further deterrent to individuals accessing services. The Government have carefully considered the options for when referrals should be made, and we recognise that cases have both a criminal and a safeguarding element. FGM is a criminal offence and we therefore believe that the most appropriate reporting route is via the police. However, I reassure noble Lords that a report to the police will not necessarily immediately trigger a criminal investigation: when a report is made, the police will work with the relevant agencies to determine the most appropriate course of action. In preparing to introduce the duty, we will work closely with the police to ensure that a clear reporting system is in place prior to its introduction. In addition, we will have ensured that there is a reasonable timeframe within which professionals are required to make the report to the police, to allow time for consultation with other agencies in sensitive or complex cases.

Finally, I confirm that the Government will ensure that there is adequate time for consultation with stakeholders prior to the introduction of statutory guidance.

I again apologise to the House for the confusion about the provisions relating to legal aid. The relevant amendments in this group are indeed Commons Amendments 50 and 51. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked what legal aid will be available for orders made in criminal proceedings. The Commons amendments make civil legal aid available for victims and third parties who may wish to apply, vary or discharge an FGM protection order.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

The noble Baroness is aware that the orders are not based on criminal proceedings; they are civil orders. The confusion was caused because the Government have placed a civil provision within the criminal law, whereas our proposal was for a civil provision, wholly within civil law. I think that is what, partly, created the confusion around legal aid. It is purely a civil matter, although it sits within criminal legislation.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for clarifying that. I think I referred to this in my introduction, but the Government have made some quite tough choices in deciding which matters would remain in scope of legal aid. The ministry took account of the importance of the issues at stake, the individual’s ability to present their own case and the availability of alternative sources of funding. Legal aid continues to be available in the most serious of cases, for example where people’s life or liberty is at stake or where their children may be taken into care. Legal aid is available where not providing it would be likely to result in a breach of the individual’s rights under the European Convention on Human Rights or European law. I confirmed in my remarks at the beginning that civil legal aid will be provided.

My noble friend Lady Walmsley asked about the progress of the consultation on whether to introduce a more general duty to report suspected abuse of children and vulnerable adults. As my noble friend will know, following the earlier debates on the Bill in the House the Government committed to undertake such a consultation, and the outcome of that consultation will be reported on within 18 months of Royal Assent.

My noble friend also asked about sanctions for failing to report cases of FGM. The proposal will use existing disciplinary frameworks to consider sanctions. Given that in health these may include General Medical Council and Nursing and Midwifery Council fitness to practise proceedings, there can be a wide variety of recommendations made as to suitable action, which may include retraining, supervision or other measures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Commons Amendments 17 and 21.

We can all agree that domestic abuse is a serious and pervasive crime; a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on Report. It is shocking that in the past year more than 2 million people in England and Wales were abused by those closest to them, and even more shocking that 85 women were murdered by a current or former partner.

However, comparing those figures to the number of people who reach out for help and access the criminal justice system shows that, despite prosecution and conviction figures reaching their highest ever levels under this Government, domestic abuse is still vastly underreported. A stark comparison of crime survey and Crown Prosecution Service figures suggests that just one in 20 of those abused by their families and partners have access to justice.

The sad fact is that we are still grappling with a reality where many people think a crime has been committed in a relationship only if violence is involved. Even the courts have taken the view that stalking and harassment legislation does not apply in ongoing relationships where abuse is interspersed with periods of affection. That rules out those cases of domestic abuse where controlling and manipulative perpetrators play on the affection of their partners or family members to avoid detection.

The Government understand that coercive and controlling behaviour can be harder to recognise, but can be every bit as damaging to its victims as physical violence. To quote one victim of domestic abuse who responded to our consultation,

“my bruises faded, but the psychological scars didn’t”.

In recognition of the harm that coercive and controlling behaviour can do, the Government have expanded the non-statutory definition of domestic violence and abuse to send a clear message that abuse is more than just physical. Last summer, we ran a consultation to ask whether the law also needs to be strengthened to provide better protection to victims of domestic abuse. Eighty-five per cent of respondents told us that the law needs to be strengthened; 55% highlighted the need for a new offence to make sure that a person causing someone they are in a relationship with to live in constant fear faces justice for their actions.

Commons Amendment 7 provides for just such an offence. The new offence makes it clear that abusing someone in a relationship is every bit as serious as stalking or harassing a stranger. It applies to repeated or continuous behaviour in relationships which, when incidents are viewed in isolation, may appear unexceptional, but has a significant cumulative impact on the victim’s everyday life. It causes them to feel fear, alarm or distress.

When I first spoke on this issue in the House last year, I said that legislation on this issue must be approached judiciously. I stand by that. There is a balance to be struck. Every relationship has its own power dynamics and this is not about outlawing arguments or saying that couples cannot disagree. It must be clear that the new offence does not apply to volatile relationships which stop short of being abusive. To capture this balance, key elements of the new offence are the need to establish the repeated or continuous nature of the behaviour and the ability of a reasonable person, whether part of or external to the relationship, to appreciate that the behaviour will have a serious effect on its victim.

We have made sure that the new offence does not duplicate existing criminal law. Child abuse does not fall into the ambit of the new offence because it is covered by existing offences. Nor does the new offence apply to extended family members who have never lived with the victim, because stalking legislation would capture those circumstances.

We must also be on our guard against the application of the new offence in circumstances where control may be necessary to secure a loved one’s safety. For example, I am sure that none of us would want to see the spouse of a person struck by mental illness imprisoned for medicating them or protecting them from situations which may cause them harm. I am equally sure that we would not want to see the parents of an unruly teenager convicted for proportionately curbing the behaviour of their wayward child. That is why we have included a defence in the framework.

Of course, we also need to be sure that manipulative perpetrators cannot use the defence to escape justice. To address this, the defence will not be available where the victim has been caused to fear violence. To rely on the defence, a defendant will need to show that a reasonable person would agree that their behaviour was reasonable in all the circumstances. This is not an easy test to meet if you have perpetrated a campaign of control against another person.

The maximum sentence of five years’ imprisonment for the new offence recognises the damage that coercive or controlling behaviour can do to its victims and is commensurate with the maximum penalty for stalking. Of course, the new offence cannot be implemented without an effective police response, so the work that the Home Secretary is doing to drive improvements through her national oversight group on domestic abuse remains as high a priority as ever.

The new offence, together with the guidance for investigators provided for in Commons Amendment 8, will make it easier for the police to protect victims and bring those who abuse them to justice. This will send a clear message that domestic abuse in all its forms will not be tolerated in our society. Commons Amendments 17 and 21 are consequential on Amendments 7 and 8. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I welcome these amendments. As a long-term patron of Basildon Women’s Aid, for over 20 years, I am very much aware that coercive and intimidating behaviour is often a precursor to violent behaviour. I have spoken to women and found that it can start with, “Oh, I like to see you in that dress”. In one case, it went from what somebody wore and whether they wore make-up through to, if they even washed, they were seen as trying to attract other men, and that then led to violence. It can start very simply with what somebody wears or make-up and end in violent behaviour.

Not only does the amendment recognise that controlling or coercive behaviour in such relationships is dangerous, it could also be a preventive measure, because it could nip the problem in the bud before it gets to violent and more abusive behaviour. The amendment recognises how dangerous such controlling behaviour is. Even if it does not lead to violent behaviour, controlling behaviour is dangerous and corrosive to the individual. That is recognised in the courts already. Ongoing, day-in, day-out controlling behaviour has led to cases where the woman being victimised has turned on and been violent towards the perpetrator of such behaviour. The courts have now recognised that slow-burn behaviour. Intimidation has consequences, so the amendment is very welcome.

The Minister talked about the effective police response. Passing a law does not, on its own, make something happen, and he recognised that. In my area, the number of police officers and the pressure that they are under has an impact on the police’s ability to investigate and act on such issues. Too often, domestic violence can, as the noble Lord and the Home Secretary have recognised, come further down the list of priorities. I hope that, when the Government examine how successful this is, they also look at the resources that are available for the police to take the action that is needed.

Counterterrorism Policy: Syria and Iraq

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in answer to an Urgent Question in the other place.

“Mr Speaker, as the Government have made clear repeatedly, the threat we face from terrorism is grave and it is growing. The House will appreciate that I cannot comment on operational matters and individual cases, but the threat level in the United Kingdom, which is set by the independent Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, is at severe. This means that a terrorist attack is highly likely and could occur without warning.

The Government have consistently and emphatically advised against all travel to Syria and parts of Iraq. Anyone who travels to those areas is putting themselves in considerable danger, and the impact that such a decision can have on families and communities can be devastating.

The serious nature of the threat we face is exactly why the Government have been determined to act. We have protected the counterterrorism policing budget, up to and including 2015-16, and increased the budget for the security and intelligence agencies. In addition, we have provided an additional £130 million to strengthen counterterrorism capabilities and help to address the specific threat from ISIL.

We have taken significant steps to ensure that the police and security services have the powers and capabilities that they need. Last year, we acted swiftly to protect vital capabilities which allow the police and security services to investigate serious crime and terrorism, and to clarify the law in respect of interception for communications service providers.

This year, we have introduced the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act. This has provided the police with a power to seize a passport at the border temporarily, during which time they will be able to investigate the individual concerned—and I can confirm that this power has been used. The Act has created a temporary exclusion order that allows for the managed return to the UK of a British citizen suspected of involvement in terrorist activity abroad. It has strengthened the existing TPIM regime so that, among other measures, subjects can be made to relocate to another part of the country, and it has enhanced our border security for aviation, maritime and rail travel, with provisions relating to passenger data, no-fly lists, and security and screening measures.

Since its national rollout in April 2012, over 2,000 people have been referred to Channel, the Government’s programme for people vulnerable to being drawn into terrorism, many of whom might have gone on to be radicalised or to fight in Syria. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Act has now placed Channel on a statutory basis, and it has also placed our Prevent work on a statutory basis, which will mean that schools, colleges, universities, prisons, local government and the police will have the duty to have due regard to the need to prevent people from being drawn into terrorism. Already, since 2012, local Prevent projects have reached over 55,000 people and helped young people and community groups understand and challenge extremist narratives, including those of ISIL.

In addition to this work, and alongside the checks that we have already conducted on a significant number of passengers leaving the UK, we have committed to reintroducing exit checks, and arrangements to do so will be in place by April 2015. These will extend our ability to identify persons of interest from a security, criminal, immigration or customs perspective. As the Prime Minister stated last week, the Transport Secretary and I will be working with airlines to put proportionate arrangements in place to ensure that children who are at risk are properly identified and questioned.

The Government are taking robust action. But we have been clear that tackling the extremist threat we face is not just the job of the Government, the police and the security services. It needs everyone to play their part. It requires educational institutions, social media companies, communities, religious leaders and families to help protect vulnerable people from being drawn into radicalisation and to confront this poisonous ideology. If we are to defeat this appalling threat and ideology, we must all work together”.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the answer to the shadow Home Secretary.

In our debates on the counterterrorism Bill, we referred on several occasions to the 600 or so British citizens who have travelled to Syria to join the conflict. Each of those 600 has somehow come into contact with extremists and been radicalised. When this Government came to power, they revoked the relocation orders that removed individuals from terrorist networks to disrupt those networks. They took that action against professional advice. Do the Government now accept that the removal of relocation orders made it harder to disrupt terrorist networks, particularly those in parts of London?

Given that the Government advice is not to travel to Syria, we all find it absolutely incredible that three 15 year-old schoolgirls were able to make that journey, taking over 30 hours, without any intervention. When were the authorities in Turkey notified? Was it really three days later and, if so, why did it take so long? What communications were there with the British embassy in Turkey and what action was taken by the embassy to try to locate the young girls? Did anyone think of just checking the bus station? What measures are now being put in place to prevent this happening again?

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, the noble Baroness asked about the control orders. She will be aware that they related to a different time. The threat which has come from people travelling to Syria has gathered pace over the past couple of years. The threat level has increased. There was also concern, which we discussed at length during the passage of the counterterrorism Bill, about the orders being whittled away by the courts. We felt that we needed to introduce a new measure, the TPIM, which is more effective and has a higher threshold. That has been more effective in the location element. On the noble Baroness’s point about the removal of the orders being against professional advice, the Home Secretary discussed the proposal with the authorities before the decision was taken. They accepted it at that point, just as they are now recommending that the measure is reintroduced given the renewed threat that we have faced.

I know that the issue of how on earth this could happen with the three young girls has caused immense distress to everyone. It is the subject of an ongoing investigation. The account of the series of events that is coming from the authorities in Istanbul is vigorously challenged by the Metropolitan Police. It informed the Turkish embassy on the very day that it was alerted to the children having gone missing. However, rather than my going further on that, I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could bear with me in allowing the investigation currently under way to take its course.

Referral and Investigation of Proposed Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Scotland) Order 2015

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak also to the Referral and Investigation of Proposed Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Northern Ireland and Miscellaneous Provisions) Order 2015 and the Proposed Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Conduct of Investigations, etc.) Regulations 2015.

Part 4 of the Immigration Act 2014 constitutes the biggest reform of marriage preliminaries in a generation. It provides for a new referral and investigation scheme in England and Wales, aimed at tackling sham marriages and civil partnerships entered into for the purpose of circumventing the UK’s immigration controls. We are committed to dealing with those who seek to use marriage or civil partnership as a means of cheating their way into staying in the UK. The referral and investigation scheme will give us a much stronger platform for effective, systematic action to disrupt and deter sham marriages and civil partnerships, and prevent them gaining an immigration advantage.

The draft orders extend the referral and investigation scheme to proposed marriages and civil partnerships in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The operation of the scheme on a UK-wide basis will ensure that there is a robust response in place to the problem of sham marriage and avoids any risk of displacement of the problem from one part of the UK to another. We are grateful for the support of colleagues in the devolved Administrations for these measures.

The conduct of investigations regulations make provision for how we will conduct an investigation into whether a proposed marriage or civil partnership referred under the scheme is a sham. They set out the requirements with which the parties must comply as part of an investigation and the basis for the decision as to whether they have complied. If the parties do not comply with an investigation under the scheme, they will be unable to marry or enter into a civil partnership on the basis of that notice. The scheme will be implemented across the UK on 2 March. From this date, all marriages following civil preliminaries and civil partnerships in England and Wales will be subject to a minimum notice period of 28 days. This will also be the case in Scotland and Northern Ireland, under changes to devolved marriage and civil partnership laws.

Any couple including a non-EEA national wishing to marry in the Anglican Church in England and Wales will be required to complete civil preliminaries and give notice at a register office before their marriage. This will ensure that all couples within the scope of the scheme are correctly identified. Also from 2 March, registration officials will be required to refer to the Home Office all couples involving a non-EEA national who could gain an immigration advantage from the proposed marriage or civil partnership—for example, because they do not have evidence that they have settled status in the UK. Where a couple is referred to the Home Office under the scheme, we will be able to extend the notice period from 28 to 70 days where we suspect a sham and decide to investigate the genuine nature of the relationship.

By extending the notice period and channelling to us all proposed marriages and civil partnerships that could bring an immigration benefit, the new system will give us much more time and information to identify and act against shams before they happen. Where they go ahead, we will have the evidence that we need on file to be able to refuse any subsequent immigration application. The new scheme will provide the platform needed for us to tackle sham marriages and civil partnerships more effectively, and crack down on the abuse of our marriage and civil partnership laws, and of our immigration system. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her explanation of and information about these orders, and I think she knows that they have our full support. We expressed that support during the passage of the Immigration Bill, which was a long Bill that produced considerable debate—but, interestingly, this part did not provoke particularly long debates. There was widespread support in your Lordships’ House for the view that something had to be done to tackle those who seek to gain an immigration status in the UK on the basis of a marriage ceremony that is not a genuine marriage. I appreciate that it is seriously difficult to investigate and understand how often this happens, and there is now a reliance on those who conduct marriages to seek further information and to make a judgment, based on that information, about whether the marriage is fraudulent for the purposes of immigration or is a genuine relationship. We supported the measures then and we support them now.

Not only are these sham ceremonies wrong in principle and unfair to British citizens, they are also unfair on those in mixed nationality relationships that are genuine and do lead to marriage. We can have confidence in those marriages if we deal with sham marriages that are not genuine. I have a few questions, some of which are simply to refresh my memory on a couple of things in the Immigration Bill that relate to this issue. Earlier I was thinking about whether it is a duty on those conducting a marriage ceremony to refer any marriage they suspect of being sham or is it something that they may do? I know that there is information that they have to check, but that can be provided fraudulently anyway, which indeed has been part of the problem. Is it an actual duty on those conducting the marriage?

One reason I ask this relates to the news at the moment about the three young London girls who flew to Turkey and are now feared to have gone to Syria. A problem there is that the Government have in some ways outsourced the checking procedures from those who would have been responsible, such as the then UK Border Agency. It is now the responsibility of the airline to check whether they are able to leave the country. Now we have a situation where we expect those who conduct marriage ceremonies to check whether a couple are genuine. I am curious as to whether it would be an offence if the person did not conduct adequate checks, and what training, support, advice and guidance is being given to those who conduct marriages to help them make the correct assessment? That is key to making sure that we get this right. It is all very well to pass a law saying that something should happen, but unless we know that it will happen appropriately, we should still have some concerns.

I have to say that I did not find the Explanatory Memorandum very helpful at all. It refers to consultations, but the only ones it mentions are those which were conducted on the measures that are in the Bill itself, not those set out in this secondary legislation. One thing that always concerns me about secondary legislation is that often it is about the implementation of policies that have already been agreed. For a policy to be effective, its implementation often matters more than what was decided as the policy. I would have liked to have seen some consultation; some soundings and advice taken from those who are going to be at the sharp end of implementing the legislation to see if they are content with the tools they have in place. I went back to the original consultation, but it did not help much in that regard. If the Minister could tell me what conversations and discussions have been held with those who will be responsible for implementing the legislation, it would be quite helpful.

At the time the legislation was being passed, it was estimated that there were something between 4,000 and 10,000 applications to remain in the UK being made each year by those who we believed were party to a sham marriage. That is a huge range, and we said at the time that there has to be more intelligence gathering and an intelligence-based approach to this problem. Has anything more been done on that since then? If this is to be a referral-only mechanism to investigate sham marriages, I am concerned that we may be missing some of the sham applications that will be made as a result unless the appropriate training and guidance is given to those who are to conduct such marriages.

These are not concerns about the policy or the principle, but about how the law is going to work in practice. Are the tools and the funding in place? Those are the issues. In principle, however, we support these orders, just as we supported the legislation. However, if the noble Baroness is able to say something about the points I have raised, I would be most grateful to her.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness, as always, for her constructive comments. She asked three main questions, the first of which was on a duty to report. There is an existing duty to report on registration officials who suspect that a sham marriage or civil partnership has taken place or is about to take place. They currently have a duty to report that to the Home Office, and there will now also be a duty to refer all couples who are in scope of the scheme for the Home Office to make a decision about whether to investigate or not. That is where the extended period to investigate comes in.

The noble Baroness also asked about guidance and training. Statutory guidance for Home Office staff on the operation of the new scheme is being developed, alongside the requisite operational procedures for dealing with proposed marriages and civil partnerships which have been referred to the Home Office under the scheme. The guidance is expected to cover decisions about whether to investigate whether a proposed marriage or civil partnership is a sham, how the investigation may be conducted and whether a couple have complied with an investigation. The parameters for the guidance are set out in secondary legislation before the Committee, in the draft conduct of investigations regulations, and in the explanatory paper on the new scheme that the Government published in November 2013 to support parliamentary consideration of the relevant provisions in the Immigration Bill.

The noble Baroness talked about training, and help and advice for registrars. I understand that significant training has been provided to local registration staff to help them identify forged documents. That is not a perfect solution but it is the best that we have at our disposal at this point in time. Intelligence has also been shared with registration staff so that they are aware of the profile of a likely sham and what sort of pointers would indicate one.

The noble Baroness talked about consultation. We have consulted publicly, and consulted the devolved Administrations and their registrars on the scheme.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful for that, which was helpful, although I was asking about consultation on these regulations, not on the Bill. The Explanatory Memorandum says that,

“no public or other consultation was held … on the Regulations”.

Perhaps she is talking about the Bill, not the regulations.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps I need to come back to the noble Baroness on that. I had it in my mind that there had been both a public consultation and extensive discussions with the devolved Administrations. Rather than give her duff information from the Dispatch Box, I will get back to her. We have also worked closely with the Anglican Church on the changes that might affect the church. I will write to the noble Baroness on the specific point, but unless she has any other questions, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 9th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, an acknowledgement of the Minister’s hard work, openness, patience and availability in numerous meetings applies not just to these clauses but to the whole of the Bill. He has been so helpful, as other noble Lords have said.

Having said that, I think it is right to say—noise from behind me suggests that I might be about to criticise the Minister; I am not—that there is a lot of work for the Government and local government, at all levels and in all sectors, to do. I will not be the only Member of your Lordships’ House who has had a number of emails this morning saying that the writer is very concerned about the Bill, or making points about the need for tackling radicalisation to be done from the bottom up. Such emails also mention issues around discrimination and all the things that many of us have voiced at some length during proceedings on the Bill. At this point, while giving ourselves a pat on the back for having got to here, it is only right to remember that the work done outside the legislation is probably more difficult than the legislation itself.

I gave very brief notice to the Bill team of one question. If the Minister is not able to answer it, since it arises from his most recent letter, which is not on the record in Hansard, I will of course understand if he would prefer to answer it by letter. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about due regard, particular regard and so on. The letter says, in terms, that the particular freedom of speech awareness and the principle of academic freedom are not elevated above the Prevent duty. On the last day of Report, I think, we heard a very helpful explanation of what “due regard” meant. Having said that, the letter goes on a couple of pages later to say that particular regard is stronger than due regard. I found it a little difficult to reconcile the two parts of the letter. The Bill team started to explain it to me, but I needed to get into the Chamber for the start of these proceedings. If that is better dealt with by letter, to have the same status as the letter that gives rise to the questions, perhaps that would be the way to do it.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister’s characteristically generous comments when he introduced these amendments illustrate his attitude to the whole Bill. I hope that the well-deserved praise that he has received so far does not damage his promotion prospects in the future, given where it is coming from. He said that the debate had lasted thirty-eight and a half hours. There were times when it flew by and there were times it did not, but it is a testament to your Lordships’ House—and I think noble Lords across the House, other than the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, have recognised this—that we have a substantially improved Bill from the one that we received, and with no votes, which is an interesting comment on the way we have proceeded in our discussions and debates both inside the Chamber and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, referred to, outside the Chamber as well.

I thank the Minister for the number of occasions on which he has been willing to engage. We have all engaged with Ministers across parties in the past where we have engaged but have felt that they perhaps have not engaged in the same way. He has not been guilty of that on any occasion. He did engage properly. Even last Wednesday, I caught him at around midnight as he was leaving the Chamber, and he was willing to discuss the issue of academic freedom further. I think that says a lot about how we got to this substantially improved Bill.

My only question is to ask whether the Minister can place on the record the points that he made in his extremely helpful letter in that regard, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. I think that would be very important. I thank him and his Bill team, who have been available at all times for discussions and debate. I think that is what has led to the improvements.

Can I make one plea? I have also received emails and letters about this. There is some misunderstanding of the purpose of the Bill and how these measures will work. That is going to be very important. Legislation is one thing, but hearts and minds and understanding to make it work in practice in the way that it is supposed to—doing no less and no more than is intended—will be extremely important.

As well as the clarity that the Minister has given to the Bill as a whole, particularly on freedom of speech and academic freedom in Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill, the issues will now receive judicial review. That is extremely important. We pushed it to a vote in the Commons. We did not succeed, but we have succeeded in agreement across your Lordships’ House on that point during our debates.

On the issues of guidance, the fact that we have now increased parliamentary scrutiny by affirmative order is extremely important. I also recognise that during Committee, as the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, said, several changes were made to that guidance. She recognised that it would have to be changed before it was presented to your Lordships’ House through an SI.

We support these amendments. We are grateful to the Minister for putting them forward. We also welcome the spirit in which this Bill has been debated and discussed and the changes that have been made. It is a significant testament to your Lordships’ House that, as I said at the beginning, we have a much improved Bill in comparison to the one we received, and with no votes, by negotiation and discussion.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the comments that have been made from around the House. There is no need for the noble Baroness to worry about damaging my career prospects. As I am reliably informed, I do not have many, having already exceeded my mother’s expectations for my career some years ago.

The noble Baroness made a very important point about the fact that we have considered 237 amendments and there has been no Division, but that is not to say that there has been no difference, change or argument, or really passionate debate. I think of some of the debates that we have had, particularly on academic freedom and communications data, to which my noble friend Lady Buscombe referred. We have had passionate debate all the way through, and as a result of that 40 amendments have been made to the Bill, which will now go on its journey to another place.

Independent Panel Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the Home Secretary’s Statement, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating it for us today. There can be few things worse for a child than to be sexually and violently abused by adults, but one of those things has to be not to be believed that it ever happened. However, the most shocking thing has to be for someone, somehow, to muster the courage to speak out, and when they are believed, to be ignored because of that belief, and for the crime to be covered up to protect the guilty. That this abuse and lack of justice has involved well known and establishment figures and institutions compounds the pain, horror and disgust.

In her Statement the Home Secretary said that,

“what we have seen so far … is only the tip of the iceberg”.

She added that it was,

“on a scale that we still cannot fully comprehend”.

She is absolutely right. What is emerging is a catalogue of serious, systematic abuse over decades and across the country by those who believed they were above the law. But however distressing, however uncomfortable and however shocking, we have to comprehend it, because only then will we be able to get to the truth, and justice, for the survivors of that abuse, and also for those who have not survived.

However, we need to do far more than just understand the truth. It was quite moving to hear the part of the Home Secretary’s Statement where she reported that the common goal, and one of the factors that motivates and drives survivors to relive the horror of their experiences, is, as she put it, to protect and save others. The challenge for the inquiry is not only to meet the expectations of the needed investigation but to make recommendations for the future.

We called for a full statutory inquiry more than two years ago. The Home Secretary announced an inquiry more than six months ago. The false starts, the confusion and the problems have been hugely damaging. There have been issues around personnel and about the remit and the purpose, and survivors have not felt fully engaged in the process. We want this inquiry to be as effective as possible and to have the confidence of survivors and the public. So we welcome that it will now be a statutory inquiry, and we welcome, as hinted in the Statement, the extension of the remit to cover pre-1970 offences. If the Minister could clarify that further, it would be helpful.

We welcome the discussions that the Home Secretary has now had with survivors prior to appointing Justice Lowell Goddard to chair the panel. We certainly welcome the agreement that the Home Affairs Select Committee should hold a pre-appointment hearing. I have just a few questions for the Minister. Clearly, the confidence of abuse survivors is absolutely essential. Will there be any consultation and engagement with survivors regarding the appointment of the new panel and the ongoing shape and work of the inquiry?

Noble Lords are well aware of the very serious and quite devastating allegations of cover-ups and conspiracies in Whitehall and Westminster regarding the most serious crimes of sexual and violent abuse. Even today, the Home Secretary has had to update Parliament and the Minister for the Cabinet Office on the continuing chaos of missing files, and possibly duplicated files, after a Cabinet Office file was accidentally found by the press in the National Archives. Can the Minister confirm that the files of all government agencies and departments, including Downing Street and the security services, will be searched, and that Justice Goddard will have all the access that she requests?

The Home Secretary was direct and robust when she was asked about a cover-up. What will be the investigative capacity of Justice Goddard’s inquiry? Will she be able to select her own advisers and counsel? I note from the Statement that Ben Emmerson has been reappointed. Was that done with the approval of the new chairman? We all want to see those who are responsible brought to justice wherever possible, but noble Lords will be aware, as it has been raised before, of those who are responsible for online sex abuse not being interviewed by the police quickly enough. I have raised this issue with the Minister before in Questions and debates. If in the past we have had the problem that the police have not acted quickly enough against those who are now abusing children or looking at online images, can he be confident that they have the resources they need fully to investigate and prosecute past crimes while still policing the present and protecting children from abuse today? Can he explain something about the relationship and co-operation with Simon Bailey’s work and that of the National Crime Agency and CEOP?

Finally, the Minister will be aware of the issues that can arise when an inquiry which, of necessity, is thorough and meticulous, takes a long time, even years, to complete its work. What monitoring and progress-reporting arrangements will be in place? Can he confirm that if evidence comes to light before the conclusion of the inquiry that could lead to a prosecution, that evidence will be acted on without delay?

We welcome the Statement, and I hope the noble Lord can clarify some of the points I have raised today.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her characteristic bipartisan approach on this. I know from my right honourable friend the Home Secretary that one of the most important things for survivors, particularly as we approach the end of this Parliament, is confidence that we are acting in a cross-party way so that there will not be disruption thereafter. That will be welcomed by them.

I shall deal with a number of the points that the noble Baroness raised. In relation to the missing files, as I have said, my right honourable friend has been very clear that we do not know whether there was a cover-up. That is one of the things that we need to get clear. We need to focus on it and get to the bottom of it. The Home Secretary and the Cabinet Secretary have written round, and we expect early and full compliance with that inquiry, as should have been the case with the earlier Wanless and Whittam review.

The noble Baroness asked about Ben Emmerson QC as the counsel. That was discussed with Justice Goddard and she is content with that approach. The noble Baroness also asked about the important issue of timing. We have been hearing evidence lately about the Chilcot review dragging on. That is not something that we want to do. The Home Secretary has said that she is considering—but will first discuss with the chairman of the panel, of course—whether there might be a target date. However, we would certainly expect to get regular updates and for survivors to be kept updated about the progress being made. Any evidence that comes to light must be passed immediately. That is the crucial role which Chief Constable Simon Bailey will play. He will be the link, the conduit, and the link with the Director of Public Prosecution’s office, so that we ensure that any prosecutions and information are dealt with immediately.

I think those were the principal points that the noble Baroness raised. If there are other points, I will come back to them later. I am grateful for her support.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hussain (LD)]

My Lords, as somebody who has been deputy leader of Luton Borough Council, I support my colleague’s amendment. Luton has been in the media because of its extremists, and we do have a small number of people who hold extreme views. Nevertheless, it is on record that out of the 22—or now perhaps 24—mosques in the town, none of them allows those few extremists to use its platforms to spread their messages. Some of them have worked with ex-offenders and those who might have been involved in other activities.

Might I give an example of how this is going to affect them? One of the imams of those mosques, whom I knew very well, was working on a project with ex-offenders. It was a successful, well recognised piece of work that he had been involved with for years. He had worked with internationally recognised charities in Syria. Recently, when he gave in his passport to be renewed, the passport was held. We do not know the reasons; he has approached me and said, “Can you help me?”. He has tried to speak to the Passport Office; he spoke to the crime commissioner and his local Member of Parliament, but he is not getting anywhere. He said to me, “Lord Hussain, if I have done something wrong, just tell me that I have done something wrong. If it is wrong for me to go to work with a charity in Syria, I will not go to work with those charities in Syria, much as I would like to. But I don’t think I have done anything wrong”.

We have to give proper training to our staff in order to carry out these laws. Experience shows what went on when we tried to implement stop and search, a piece of legislation that the police actually admitted that they were not sufficiently trained to carry out. My fear is that we are going to alienate communities if we do not accept the amendments, which I support.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise briefly on this. I was reflecting on my own student days when we had serious problems with extremists in Leicester, but extremists as referred to in the Prevent draft guidance—from the extreme right-wing. We had numerous problems and things were at times quite frightening. I also recall attacks on gay bars in London by extremists who were anti-gay. We have to be very equal and balanced when we talk about extremism.

I was grateful for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, when he talked about Muslim communities as being as broad and wide as any other communities that share a set of beliefs or religion. I can equate that with some Muslim friends of mine who do not all think the same. I was slightly disappointed by the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe. In my experience, when there have been attacks where Muslims have been blamed or some Muslims have been responsible, the greatest condemnation has come from those who are Muslim.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I never in the least bit insinuated that that was my point of view. I was just trying to explain why people out there have applied labels to the people who have carried out these atrocities. That is nothing to do with my point of view. I would never label that community as being one. I think that various noble Lords misunderstood me and I am sorry if they have misunderstood me. That was not what I was talking about. I was talking about the fact that this legislation does not actually mention any particular community—that is nowhere in the Bill—and therefore presumption should not be made in that regard.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That clarification is helpful and I am grateful for that. I did not know that the noble Baroness was able to intervene on Report and was unsure whether to accept the intervention, but it was a very helpful clarification.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, I first raised this issue about the impact on communities when talking about the Privacy and Civil Liberties Board. On this issue the Minister and other noble Lords have in numerous contributions made it clear that the views of communities and the impact on them must be taken into account. Looking again at the guidance we are debating—I sent out for copies—it goes some way to doing that but, given the comments that have been made, it may be that the guidance could be a little clearer and more explicit on this issue. I am sure that when exercising this duty under Prevent we will all be seeking the same objective, which is to prevent people turning to or being drawn into extremism that could lead to violent behaviour. The sentiments are exactly right and what every Member of your Lordships’ House has said since the beginning of the debate, but if the noble Lord could clarify that and put it on record, and perhaps consider how the guidance could be made more explicit in that regard, that would be helpful.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a good curtain-raiser debate because we will come back to this issue in five successive groups, looking at different aspects of the Prevent strategy. I was lulled into a slightly false sense of security by my noble friend Lady Hamwee when she said that the more she read, the more she felt that the clause made sense and her amendment was perhaps not necessary. She then elaborated on it in a way that provoked a very helpful debate.

I should say two things in the context of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and my noble friend Lady Buscombe. When we talk about communities here, it is helpful to start from the position that everyone is equal before the law. Everyone is of equal value and they have the same vote and the same rights. Everyone is equal in our society. That is part of what a democratic society is about and what we are seeking to protect and uphold through this strategy. In a sense, to overfocus on particular groups is sometimes not helpful. All these measures are about prevention of terrorism and extremism. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned, there is far-right extremism, such as the murder of Mohammed Saleem, an 82 year-old, and bombs being placed nearby. Some 25% of the people on the Channel programme at present are from extreme right organisations. We have faced a lot of violent threats such as violence in Northern Ireland. We fear violence from animal rights groups and far-right groups. There are a range of people who would seek to attack that central principle that all people are equal, and are of equal value and worth in our society. That is what is really under attack.

We must never be drawn into a situation where, for fear of offence, we are not able to speak that truth. I do not want to link too far back, but I am afraid my mind is still full of the horrors of what we were talking about before—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wilson of Dinton (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise that I have not intervened before on any stages of the Bill. I come from Cambridge, where the Government have succeeded in something that, in my experience, has never happened before in my 12 years there: they have united the Cambridge colleges, in deep concern about the impact of this provision on the universities. I declare an interest in that I am a fellow of Emmanuel College. I was a master for 10 years and still deliver a couple of lectures for the university and interview for admission.

I was also, for a period, Permanent Secretary at the Home Office. As such, I cannot speak to the Minister in private, so I will have to do it in public. I have a real concern. I understand absolutely the awful nature of the problem that he has. I have some experience of terrorism; I know what it is like from the inside. I know how—if it is not too bad a word—frightening it can be when you have a problem like this. However, if I were speaking truth unto power, I would say that I do not think that this is going to work. That is my real worry, Minister.

There are a number of reasons why it will not work. One of them is that the Government need the universities and their challenge, analysis and intellect—the Minister has heard that said eloquently around the Chamber. But the Government are setting themselves up against that. In fact, in a parody, they are almost protecting radicalism from challenge. This needs the fresh air of challenge. Perversely, the Minister is protecting terrorism and radicalism by protecting them from debate and from challenge. Young people—students—are most open to debate and to understanding new ideas when they are young adults of 18, 19 and 20. It is extraordinary, but I am the third Member who was at the Oswald Mosley debate. This is becoming a declaration made round the Chamber. As a good civil servant, however, I was observing my future masters—and I was not heckling.

It is absolutely fundamental to the success of the Government’s policies that they have the universities on side. They should be working with them rather than doing what this legislation will do, which is to generate huge amounts of paper—just like the FCA and the FSA—and laboured analysis to no good purpose. It will generate heat. It may generate conscientious objection. It will lose the universities. The Minister should read the protest that Cambridge colleges have sent him. He needs them on side and working for him—preventing. He is discouraging them from preventing. He is moving the focus from his task to the Government and their obstruction of academic freedom and freedom of speech. That is not the way to have a successful policy. So what I would say to you as a Minister is, “Minister, think again”.

The Minister has got so far with the Bill that Amendment 15D might be the best he can do. But when it comes to the guidance and the guidelines, please think again. Unless the Minister gets that right and works with the universities, he will have a failed policy that will not look after the national interest. It will protect radicalism and non-violent extremism. That is not what this House or the nation wants.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this is the second long debate that we have held on a similar amendment, and there have been some reflections of the debate that we had last week. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, who said that it was a shame that the Minister was not able to speak beforehand. Some of our debate—with notable exceptions, of course—has been on what was in the coalition Government’s original Bill and not the amendment that the Minister has brought forward to us this evening.

The comments made tonight about freedom of speech and academic freedom were well made at Second Reading. The importance of both those aspects has been well expressed this evening. The Minister deserves enormous credit for the way he listened to the debate on Second Reading and again last week. Taking into account the comments made today, he responded not just with Amendment 15D but by saying last week that parts of the Prevent guidance would be removed. Perhaps noble Lords were not aware of this, but the Minister said last week that paragraph 66—the part which refers to having to give an outline of topics and discussions—would not be in the guidance. We have had some discussion around that, which makes it, in a sense, superfluous. I must admit, at the time, to feeling relieved that your Lordships’ House was not a specified body. I do not think that any of us would have had 14 days’ notice of the comments we were going to make today. Perhaps it is just as well that we are exempt and that he is going to withdraw paragraph 66 in the Prevent guidance.