Localism Bill

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Eaton]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 2. I have tabled these probing amendments in order to request clarity from my noble friend the Minister. This is an amendment to allow fire and rescue services to charge for calls regarding persistent false fire calls. False fire calls from faulty alarms in non-domestic premises are a significant burden for fire and rescue authorities. Around a third of all fire brigade attendances are to false or faulty alarms. In London alone, there are 30,000 attendances each year as a result of calls from automated fire alarms. Of those, only 3 per cent of the calls were to actual fires and in just 1 per cent to fires was a hose needed to put them out. Clause 10 is intended to allow fire authorities to charge those building owners who persistently generate such calls, thereby giving them an additional power to reduce the number of calls and the associated disruption, cost and increased risk to the public.

However, there is an established consensus from the sector that the current wording of the Bill, which addresses only malfunctioning and “misinstalled” alarms, covers less than one-fifth of the total issue. For example, of the 6,002 recorded calls from these alarms in Lancashire in 2009 and 2010, only 16 per cent were recorded as having been set off by faulty alarm systems.

I understand that organisations from across the sector, including those representing the businesses that install and monitor these alarms, have appealed to the department to look again at this drafting, but without success. For clarity, when I say “the sector”, I am referring to the Local Government Association, of which I am a former chairman, the Chief Fire Officers Association, the London Fire Brigade, the Fire Industry Association, the British Security Industry Association, and fire services across the country. All these bodies and authorities have, I understand, appealed that the current wording does not address the issue and have warned the department that the legislation as it stands could mean much confusion and many arguments over the definitions currently in the Bill, and that clarity will probably only be reached following decisions from the courts.

I do not pretend to be an expert on this issue but I am sure that few of us would say the same about the bodies I have just cited. I would welcome clarity from the Minister on this subject. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton. I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

Before this legislation, I had never come across or heard the word “misinstalled”—it is a curious turn of phrase—but clearly if an alarm is misinstalled the idea of it being maintained at relatively regular intervals is of course the responsibility of the business holder in that company. That has to be undertaken. That is why this is a reasonable amendment.

The only question I have on that concerns the evidential burden. If the business owners had taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the alarm system was properly maintained, would any action be taken against the company which had failed to do so or would it be a matter for the business? There is a slight legal quagmire here, and although I am in no haste to make extra work for lawyers, I broadly support the amendment. It is entirely reasonable.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, for tabling this amendment and I hope that she will not be too offended when I say that I am not going to accept it.

The fire and rescue services often raise the issue of the number of mobilisations to faulty fire alarms, perfectly reasonably, at non-domestic properties. We agree that this is a significant issue and we have addressed it in the Bill by proposing that, following local consultation, fire and rescue authorities will be able to recover their costs in cases of persistent false alarms in non-domestic premises where fire alarms have malfunctioned or have been misinstalled—I believe that is the word.

It is certainly true that some fire representatives support the amendment—indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, laid out who they were—and want to widen the scope of the clause to cover a wider range of incidents. However, on the other side of the coin, there are others who do not agree with the amendment and are concerned that it is confusing and will lead to additional burdens.

It is vital that we keep charging provisions as straightforward as possible and do not create uncertainty for businesses or fire and rescue authorities which seek to recover their costs. If we were to widen the scope of the clause in this way, it would mean that the fire and rescue authority would have to provide evidence that a business had not properly maintained a piece of equipment. Going down this route could only open up a significant potential for challenge that would benefit neither businesses nor the fire and rescue sector. The Bill already allows for authorities to charge under a wide range of scenarios that can lead to malfunctions and the amendment would not add anything to that.

On that basis, I am not persuaded the amendment helps. It would not achieve its intended purpose in significantly widening the number of scenarios under which an authority could charge. Instead, it could unhelpfully complicate the Bill’s provisions as drafted and leave those extra provisions open to legal challenge. I hope with that explanation the noble Baroness will be willing to withdraw her amendment.

Northern Ireland: Economy

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this has been a stimulating and, I hope, a very valuable debate for the Government. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, the significance of debating the economy is one that your Lordships' House should be proud of. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, not only on his choice of debate, which has given us the opportunity to debate extraordinarily important issues this evening, but on the way in which he introduced the debate. I think your Lordships' House will be very grateful to him for doing so.

The comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, at the beginning of his contribution were very appropriate. He talked about the purpose of tonight’s debate, which is to help assist the Government in what is a difficult decision to make: how to rebalance and grow the Northern Ireland economy. It is a debate that, as we have heard tonight, cannot be taken in isolation because the economy of Northern Ireland is inseparable from what has occurred politically, socially and security-wise over 30 years. We recognise that there is higher per capita public spending in Northern Ireland and understand that the Government want to see the level of public spending reduced more quickly there. We all want to see a stronger and more resilient economy, because nothing causes public concern and dissent faster than rising unemployment, the fear of unemployment and poor public—and indeed private—services.

After decades of underinvestment in key services—although not for a lack of spending, as there were very high costs associated with policing and security—there is a real need for public services to improve and be more efficient. Your Lordships' House has to understand that there are special reasons why public spending in Northern Ireland remains higher, and it was clear from the debate tonight that it does. That backlog of underinvestment did not disappear with the Good Friday agreement or the establishment of the Northern Ireland Executive.

I entirely agree with the objectives of improving the economy, attracting private sector investment and improving skills, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said. As noble Lords have said, this has to be done in several ways. A reduction in the level of corporation tax is the main argument put forward in the document on rebalancing the economy. However, I do not see bringing the rate of corporation tax down to 12.5 per cent, in line with the Republic, as a silver bullet. It was Kate Barker who first commented on this in her Economic Advisory Group report. She reported that if a reduction in corporation tax were to be introduced, it would have to be alongside other measures to rebuild the economy. I am not sure whether Kate Barker at that time considered it alongside the reduction in the block grant; I think that came from the Azores judgment. However, we need to look at the other side of the equation and at further cuts in the block grant.

The Northern Ireland Executive are already having to make savings and efficiencies following the cut of £4 billion to £5 billion over the next four years as a result of the public spending review. They are taking action; I am pleased to see that the RPA—the review of public administration—is proceeding to reduce the number of councils. However, I am sure that the Executive will have heard the frustrations expressed tonight in your Lordships’ House about the programme for government.

I was the relevant Minister on two levels. I had to look at two decisions: one on the introduction of water charges and another on the 11-plus, which was also mentioned. Neither of those were popular decisions and nor are they now. However, clearly difficult decisions must be taken so I am certainly not against the Northern Ireland Executive having to take political responsibility for their own budget. My real fear is that the cuts already announced are too harsh and too deep, and will bring significant problems to both individuals and the Northern Ireland economy. I was struck by the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Black, about the creative industries and how difficult they are finding some of the cuts that they have had to face.

I welcome some of the decisions made by the Executive in support of businesses. For example, there was an announcement yesterday by Invest NI, which is part of DETI, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, of a new £50 million fund to provide loans to companies that have not been able to access equity. Despite government promises to get the banks to lend more, that remains a significant problem for many smaller businesses and medium-sized enterprises that are trying to grow. I congratulate Invest NI on a great initiative, which has the potential to make a real difference.

We see a position where the Northern Ireland Executive already have to make significant changes and cuts, and need to attract investment to rebuild the economy. My concern arises because the impact of a reduction in corporation tax could be a loss of a further £300 million or £367 million—different figures have been mentioned. That cut in devolved spending has to be taken into consideration by all who are debating this issue. Where will that money come from? Which services will bear the brunt of that further cut? That is the area of concern. Is it too high a price to pay? In examining the case for a cut in corporation tax for Northern Ireland, one has to look at the reasons for the growth in investment that we saw in the Republic of Ireland. Was the primary factor in the growth in investment and the increase in jobs that was seen—we do not see it now—a different level of corporation tax?

I am not a tax expert but I have tried to speak to and read the works of those who are. They tell me that the Republic did not compete on just its tax rate. Many experts say that, in effect, many companies are offered a zero rate—they pay nothing at all—and that is part of the reason for the current problems that the Republic of Ireland is experiencing. There was significant growth, yet while the rate of corporation tax remains the same the economy now has significant problems. The level of unemployment in the Republic is significantly higher than it is in both the UK as a whole and Northern Ireland. For example, unemployment in Northern Ireland is a little more than 7.5 per cent, while in the Republic it is 14.3 per cent—up from 4.6 per cent in 2007. Among 18 to 24 year-olds, unemployment has significantly increased here in the UK to just over 21 per cent. In Northern Ireland it is 18 per cent but in the Republic of Ireland youth unemployment is a staggering 31.5 per cent.

Therefore, I urge caution: I worry that some may feel that a cut in corporation tax is enough to encourage that much needed investment. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, agrees with my concern that on its own it is not enough. We recognise that it is much more complex and that significantly more information is needed. I understand that the Northern Ireland Grand Committee in the other place has postponed its session on the economy and instead is debating the big society because it feels that it does not have enough information at this stage and wants more information before it resumes that debate.

I appreciate that the Government know that there is a lot of work to be done before any decision can be taken but, for the debate to proceed, more basic information is required. The Minister may have this information to hand. I am not clear whether the Government yet know how many companies in Northern Ireland pay corporation tax and at what level. Do we know what the total take of corporation tax in Northern Ireland is? Unless we have those figures it is very difficult to ascertain what the cut in the block grant should be.

The paper suggests that the level of corporation tax tapers off as the level of the block grant goes down. However, if it proves evident that the cut in corporation tax is not having the intended effect, do the Government plan to consider making adjustments to the amount of block grant being removed? I know the issue will be resolved but the Azores judgment specifically says that there has to be a balancing to ensure that any money that could be gained through corporation tax has to be taken away from another area. Therefore, if the amount gained through cutting corporation tax is not realised, does the amount of the block grant still go down by that amount? I have reservations about this devolved matter but if we are to work with the Executive and the people of Northern Ireland to secure the stable and resilient economy that we want to see we have to listen to local decision-makers and take on board their arguments on these issues.

Finally, I understand that the Government are establishing a working party—it may already have met—with Northern Ireland representatives and UK Ministers. Given the significance and impact of this issue it would be helpful to have representatives from all the political parties on the Executive discussing and examining it.

Patrick Finucane

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement in your Lordships’ House. Every community in Northern Ireland has suffered outrages, atrocities and murders but today we reflect on the murder of Pat Finucane. His wife was wounded in the attack, and his three children witnessed what no child ever should—the murder of their father.

Thirteen months ago the former Secretary of State, Shaun Woodward, asked the Secretary of State, Owen Paterson, to honour the commitments of a previous Prime Minister and previous Secretaries of State to hold an inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane. This commitment was made as a result of an agreement between the British and Irish Governments at Weston Park in 2001. If peace and reconciliation are to be taken forward we need to respect such agreements. Progress made in Northern Ireland is built on trust. As we have heard, since Justice Cory’s report public inquiries have been held into the cases of Robert Hamill, Rosemary Nelson and Billy Wright but not Pat Finucane.

It was a source of great regret to us, as the previous Government, that we were not able, as the noble Lord indicated, to agree terms of reference with the Finucane family for an inquiry to take place under the Inquiries Act 2005. However, today the Minister has told us of the Government’s decision that there will be no inquiry at all. Instead, the Government have announced an inadequate review, although we welcome the apology. We are disappointed by that decision and consider that the Government should honour commitments that have been made. The incredible scenes yesterday of the Finucane family at Downing Street, expressing their feelings of anger and outrage at being completely let down by the Government, show that this is no way to deal with such a difficult and sensitive issue.

Appreciating those sensitivities and difficulties, I have given the Government advance notice of the questions that I shall ask the noble Lord today. Will he tell your Lordships’ House why, having made the decision not to hold an inquiry, the Government allowed the Finucane family to believe for so long that there would be one? What discussions were held with the family prior to informing them of the Secretary of State’s decision? What advice was give to the Prime Minister by the Secretary of State that led him to invite the Finucane family to Downing Street, they clearly believing that they were to be offered something that would be acceptable to them—otherwise why raise false hopes?

Can the Minister tell us what discussions the Government had with the Irish Government before making the decision, given that the original decision to have an inquiry was made as a result of an agreement between the British and Irish Governments? Why, on the day that the Irish Government extended by six months the Smithwick inquiry into the murders of Chief Superintendent Breen and Superintendent Buchanan regarding alleged Garda collusion, did the Government choose to deny an inquiry to the Finucane family? Do the Government accept that any form of inquiry takes time and carries a financial cost but that it is possible for both of those to be reasonable and that in themselves they should not be a barrier to the pursuit of justice?

Specifically on the review of the papers, can the Minister outline how representations, including any from the family, can be made? What is the expected cost and timescale of the Government’s proposed review, and where will the hearings be held? Will any be in secret, and will witnesses be called?

Everything that has been achieved in Northern Ireland since the mid-1990s has been achieved with consensus. The Belfast, St Andrews and Hillsborough Castle agreements were all achieved by consensus. Indeed, the Northern Ireland Executive operates by consensus.

As a former Minister with responsibility for victims in Northern Ireland, I am aware, as are many of your Lordships, that there are many horrors from the past, many atrocities and many outrages by both loyalist and republican terrorists. However, there is an opportunity for Northern Ireland to escape the grip of the past by confronting the truth about past events. Therefore, can the Minister tell us anything about the Government’s policy for dealing with the past? Having denied a public inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane, what additional resources will be provided to the Historical Enquiries Team?

The people of Northern Ireland have made real progress but we must never take that progress for granted. It has taken real effort and commitment and a great deal of trust. We are asking the Government to reconsider their decision with respect to an inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane because it is the right thing to do. By seeking the truth and honouring agreements, the cause of justice is served and, with it, the cause of a better future for Northern Ireland.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2011

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I offer reluctant but strong support to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. It may or may not be a comfort to him to know that he stands in a long line of Liberal Ministers, going back to Mr Gladstone in the 19th century, who have been perplexed by the problems created by the Irish tradition of political violence for the legal system, particularly for the process of jury trials. There was a serious argument in the 19th century that such cases should be taken out of Ireland and tried in Liverpool; serious writers argued that that was a way of preserving jury trial. More generally, it was perceived that the inability to have proper legal procedures in cases involving political violence was pointing up a fundamental crisis in Ireland—the failure of the attempt to combine colonialism and democracy—and that this created a context in which terrorism existed.

What is striking about the situation in Northern Ireland now, though, is that by any standards we have a legitimate democratic system. In the most recent Assembly elections, 107 out of 108 Members of that Assembly were fully elected by the people of Northern Ireland and are full supporters of the political arrangements that are in place. In a referendum, the people of Ireland as a whole showed that they support those political arrangements. We now know that it is too sweeping a judgment to say that terrorism arises simply from a denial of democracy, because we have now established a legitimate and democratic system and we still have these problems with democracy and a situation where it would yet be unwise to return to jury trials in terrorism-related cases. I take very seriously the advice from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in particular, which the Minister mentioned in his introductory remarks.

Like other noble Lords, I have one caveat, one doubt. It concerns the process of consultation, which seems to have been meagre in this case. A few months ago the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, came to the House with a piece of legislation that reflected electoral law. There, in fact, the consultation was actually wider. In some ways this is a more important matter, going to the heart of where we have reached now in Northern Ireland.

I fully recognise what the Minister describes when he says that the Northern Ireland Office was not overwhelmed with advice on this matter; for a number of reasons, people want to turn their eyes away from this. It is actually difficult to have a lively consultation on it, and the Minister’s remarks in this respect are entirely reasonable and fair. I wonder, though, whether we should be thinking along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, of having a genuine debate. I am not convinced that he is right about the desirability of three judges as a solution in this context, even in the short term, but that does not matter; there is no question that if you said, “We are consulting about this”, you would provoke a substantive debate and much more lively contributions.

I ask the Minister to consider ways in which we could ensure that the next time that he has to come to this House asking for an extension in this respect, if there is a next time, we will be able to say that we have had a proper public consultation and a genuine element of vigour in the debate that occurred beforehand. For reasons that are not his fault or the fault of the Government, he has not been able to say that, but if we took a different approach there might be a way of having a better debate.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I have listened with great care to the debate and it is clear that none of us welcomes the order before us. The Government have informed us, and it has been endorsed by noble Lords, that it has been brought forward because of necessity. The Minister’s comments on that were a wise reflection. We are not in a normal situation and we should never regard it as such. We have to continue to move towards normalisation of the courts and the justice system. The noble Lords, Lord Shutt, Lord Bew and Lord Maginnis, all recognised the enormous progress that has been made in moving towards normalisation in Northern Ireland but we recognise that some parts of the justice apparatus are not yet able to be fully normalised. That has to be the right direction to move towards and one that has our total support.

The key issue of importance in this order is the maintenance of public confidence in this position. Obviously, we will not oppose the order tonight, but I am sure that the Minister is aware that accountability and transparency of decision-making if a case is not to be heard by a jury are extremely important. Each decision must be taken on a case-by-case basis. We certainly agree with the Minister and support the reduction in the time before it will expire from four years to two. I welcome the comments he made at the beginning that there should be a return to jury trial as soon as possible. It is clear from the discussion this evening that no one wants to move towards a rolling extension of such an order every two years. Should a further order be necessary in the future, I hope that the noble Lord will take back to his ministerial colleagues the comments that have been made about consultation and the issues that have arisen. That could play into the comments and concerns that I have about accountability and transparency and ensuring that we maintain public confidence in the system.

I have four points to raise with the Minister that I think will be helpful to noble Lords. He set out some of the reasons why he felt it necessary to extend the order. It would be helpful to have a little more detail on that. That is my issue about public confidence in the judicial system. It is always important and prudent to be as transparent and open with us as he can possibly be but I recognise the difficulty. I understand the Government’s concern, which has been raised by other noble Lords, about jury interference. Is he able to tell us about any other action that the Government are seeking to take to deal with the issue of jury interference because that will help towards looking into the future of reinstating jury trials? Furthermore, as the decision will continue to be made by the DPP, can the Minister say more about the criteria that are used by the DPP when deciding whether or not the case should be heard by a jury? He gave the four criteria at the beginning, but I am interested in the weighting of those criteria and the fact that only one has to be met for the DPP to decide on a non-jury trial.

I wonder whether the Minister has further information about the limited circumstances in which a certificate for a non-jury trial would be provided. If he has not, I am happy for him to write to me about this. Fourteen certificates for non-jury trials were issued in 2010 but 12 have already been issued in 2011, which indicates that there will be a much higher number issued in 2011 than in 2010. We are all aware of high profile cases that have yet to come to trial. If we were to see that increase year on year, the Minister will recognise the significance of that. I am interested in the number of cases considered for jury and non-jury trials. What is the balance between those for which the DPP grants a certificate for a non-jury trial and those that he would not grant a certificate for a non-jury trial? We have to be concerned about the numbers increasing when we are seeking to move towards normalisation of the justice system.

I thank the Minister for his helpful explanation that has led to a thorough debate on this issue. I hope that he will take away the comments to his colleagues in the department who can reflect on them to see whether improvements can be made, particularly with regard to consultation in future.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for speaking about his experience in the House of Commons of dealing with Northern Ireland matters and I note that he spoke about people’s fears. I am delighted to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, is an optimist. That is a good place to be in regard to Northern Ireland. We need more such optimists. I hope that he continues to be an optimist. I am also delighted that he praised the exemplary work done by Garda Siochana. I noted with concern what he had to say about threats to prison officers. I will ensure that that is taken back to the department so that people are aware of it. I am also concerned that he feels that there is a communications problem. The Secretary of State has spoken to Peers about Northern Ireland matters for a number of years, but such a meeting has not taken place for a while. I will draw to the Secretary of State’s attention that it is time we had another. We have said that we would endeavour to hold three such meetings a year. I think that we are not up to scratch on that. I will certainly take that back to the department.

I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, is also an optimist—what an optimistic day—and that he believes that the police service is not complacent. I am delighted to hear my noble friend Lord Alderdice speaking on the day on which his report—the 26th and final report of the Independent Monitoring Commission—has been produced. I am sure that all noble Lords are very grateful for the work that the noble Lord and his colleagues have carried out over many years in monitoring the willing. Sadly, much of the dissident republican and dissident loyalist violence that we are still talking about is the work of the unwilling. I noted with interest my noble friend’s comments on a possible way forward. I have heard the voices but we will have to make a judgment closer to the time on whether there is a need for a public consultation. Happy would be the day when we could say that we did not need the two-year period. That could happen. It does not have to be a case of two plus two plus two, but we want to take into account the impact and effect of other changes to the criminal justice system which the local Administration is taking forward. At the moment we can extend this provision only for two years. My noble friend suggested that we look at a three-judge system. I will take that option back to colleagues. Obviously, that would constitute a big change but I understand why he has suggested it. We routinely have one judge presiding over a criminal case and if a defendant is not satisfied with a verdict, there are the usual routes of appeal.

In the early days of the Diplock courts, there were more than 300 cases. That figure diminished over time but in the past five years of the present regime there have been 12, 25, 11, 14 and 12 so far this year. However, as the noble Baroness indicated, the figure could now be going higher than the year before and the year before that.

The noble Lord, Lord Bew, indicated his reluctance but said that he strongly supported the extension. We are all reluctant, I am afraid, and wish that we did not have it to do. He gave a comforting reminder of the splendour of the democratic system. Nevertheless, there are those who do not want to participate in what it brings forward. He was concerned about consultation and I shall take his concerns back.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, agreed that the order is a necessity. She is concerned about public confidence. However, as I understand it, this is an exceptional system; it is used only in limited circumstances on a case-by-case basis and there is a presumption for jury trial, the opposite of Diplock. The noble Baroness asked about other action. I am not aware of any that I should draw to the attention of noble Lords but, if there is, I shall write to her. After looking at all the papers and all that I have read, I am not certain that there is another initiative of which I am able to speak. However, if there is, I shall drop her a line on that. The noble Baroness referred to other steps. This is now a matter for the devolved Administration and the PSNI. All we can do is support them in their efforts to reduce intimidation.

I like to have figures available but I cannot say, for example, that there were 12 cases in a non-jury setting and 3,000 otherwise; I do not have those kinds of numbers. We shall endeavour to provide the figures—I am sure they must be available—but it is clear that the figure for non-jury trials is very low.

I hope I have dealt with the comments made by noble Lords and that your Lordships will agree to the renewal of the order.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, people can interpret these things differently. However, the agreement of 10 April 1998 quite clearly talks about rights supplementary to those in the European Convention on Human Rights to reflect the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland. It states:

“These additional rights to reflect the principles of mutual respect for the identity and ethos of both communities and parity of esteem, and—taken together with the ECHR— to constitute a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland”.

Those are the words of the Belfast agreement.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, the Government said, as the noble Lord has confirmed, that they would return to the issue of the Bill of Rights following the election of the new Assembly and Executive, which are now in place. The Prime Minister has also written that he stands ready to facilitate agreement. Can the noble Lord inform us—I have not got this from his answers so far—of the actions taken by the Government to date, following the elections, to facilitate that agreement? Also, what discussion have the Government had with the commission on the UK Bill of Rights on the Northern Ireland Bill of Rights?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am not certain about discussions with the new UK commission. It is involved throughout the United Kingdom. It has sought people to help it from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. I do not think I am able to say that any further work has been done, but talks about talks are going on. I mentioned that civil servants have already been to Northern Ireland to get things moving. It is only a matter of weeks since the Stormont election and there could be criticism of the time, but this is on a different scale from the 12 years that elapsed under the previous Administration.

Revised Draft Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy (EN-1)

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, many of us here today saw the old parliamentary year out with an energy debate, and we are seeing the new year in with another one. I hope that that is not just an accident of parliamentary timing by the usual channels; I think that it shows the importance and urgency of the issues before us today and the other issues that we are debating. Today’s debate is welcome. I thank the Government for ensuring that we have two debates; there will be a separate debate later this week on the nuclear statement.

Unfortunately, I was not part of your Lordships’ House during the previous debates. Having read them, though, it is clear to me that the Minister has taken on board a number of comments that were made, which has been welcomed by the noble Lords, Lord Giddens, Lord Teverson and Lord Jenkin of Roding. I congratulate the Government on recognising the scale of the challenge that is before us and on taking on board the comments that have been made. In many ways, these revised policy statements are aspirational, which emphasises how crucial they are—they are the framework under which the decisions, including how we secure energy supplies and the infrastructure to deliver them, will be made in future.

We have heard today that there is evidence of the urgency of the need to address infrastructure. By 2018 one-quarter of our energy capacity will close, and as much as 30 per cent will have to be replaced by 2020. We see many of our nuclear power stations coming to the end of their lives and coal-fired power stations being retired, but at the same time, by the Government’s own projections, we are seeing energy demand increasing and forecast to continue to increase significantly. If we are to meet the nation’s and our citizens’ energy demands, we have to create enough energy generation to meet them at all times.

These are huge issues that, as the statements recognise, can be addressed only by a combination or a blend of solutions. We will need to invest in carbon capture and storage and the rapid decarbonisation of the electricity sector. We will need to see increased capacity in renewables, in low-carbon energy and decentralised energy. As other noble Lords have indicated, we have to take this in the context of other issues under debate. The energy and market reform proposals, although not being debated today, are vital to progress, as will be our forthcoming debate, which I am sure we all look forward to, on the Government’s Energy Bill. None of these issues can be seen in isolation.

Can I first ask the Minister about the process? This has been also raised by noble Lords. The Government’s response to the Select Committee, which was emphasised by the Minister, made it clear that they want the “strongest possible democratic legitimacy” for these statements, and I am sure that all of us would applaud that aim. Now that the Localism Bill has been published, we have had the opportunity to look at Clause 109 on national policy statements and how Parliament should ratify them. Under this clause, if an NPS is an amended version of an earlier proposal, further consultation need not be carried out if the earlier proposal was consulted on and the amendments that have been made do not materially affect the policy. The clause goes on to state that where a proposal is laid before Parliament for approval by the House of Commons, it is not necessary to comply with the parliamentary scrutiny requirements in relation to the proposal, if they have been complied with in an earlier proposal.

I therefore have two questions—and one that occurred to me during the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell. The first relates to the definition of material amendments. Perhaps I have picked up on the scepticism of my noble friend Lord Judd about the language. The definition of material amendments is a matter of judgment for the Secretary of State. Would the amendments in these revised documents be classified by the Minister as being material and, as such, if the Localism Bill’s provisions were in force today, would these changes be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, in the way that they are now?

Secondly, what is the level of parliamentary scrutiny that would not be required? Does this mean that if the Secretary of State in future does not consider that any revisions made to the policy statements are not material, parliamentary scrutiny or ratification would not be required? I raise this because, given the significant legal weight that will be given to the national policy statements under the proposals in the Localism Bill to get rid of the IPC, I would totally support the Government’s intention to ensure that these statements have “the strongest possible democratic legitimacy”. What I am not clear about is how this will be achieved under the proposals. It would be helpful if the Minister could clarify and reassure me on those points.

Particularly after listening to my noble friend Lord Judd and the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, it strikes me that if the Minister and his colleagues are to take on board comments made in this debate and, as a result, seek to make amendments to the national policy statements, will we have to go through the entire process of consultation, revised documents and procedures in this House again. Or is the debate today simply an opportunity for noble Lords to speak and will have no impact on what can go in the documents and what changes can be made?

Finally, given that the ratification process refers only to the House of Commons and not your Lordships’ House, would it be helpful for the other place if, prior to its deliberations, there were always to be an advisory debate in your Lordships’ House that could help inform the process?

From these statements, there has to be the political will to tackle the issues. As much as we welcome what is in these documents, the Government will want to show that they will put support and investment behind these policy statements for them to be truly effective. In this regard, can I raise two areas of concern? The first relates to another clause in the Localism Bill and the Government’s plans to abolish the Infrastructure Planning Commission and replace it with a new body called the major infrastructure planning unit, within the Planning Inspectorate. When the IPC was established in 2008, the intention was for it to be an independent body with the expertise to make balanced independent decisions without ministerial political influence. It sought to make the planning system for major infrastructure projects quicker, more efficient and set within clear guidelines, whereby it would be more predictable. That laid down the right conditions for investment in the kind of energy infrastructure that we urgently need.

Under the new system proposed by the Government, the new body, the MIPU, will make recommendations to the Secretary of State, who will make decisions in accordance with these national policy statements. The Government will have to ensure that these plans do not add delays to the system or remove the clarity and certainty that the industry needs if it is to invest in energy infrastructure, particularly renewables and, as we will be discussing later in the week, nuclear.

Also, given that the Localism Bill is not due to be enacted until 2012, it would be helpful if the Minister said something about the transitional arrangements and what will happen before the MIPU is established. I am sure he will understand that we are anxious that a further change in the system should not create delays that have a potential impact on energy security.

My other concern is about the investment required. I concur entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about the need for certainty in this. Can I ask the Minister for further information on the green investment bank in this regard? We already know that the £1 billion investment being proposed is significantly less than the suggested figure of around £6 billion needed to make the necessary impact, but I know that the Government hope that private investment will be brought in.

Can I share with the Minister one of my concerns about this? The green investment bank will be tempted to invest in and focus on tried and trusted technologies—that is, the safe bets that it is pretty certain will deliver results—rather than seek to develop new, potentially more risky technologies that could have greater long-term potential. Can the Government give any further information about how the bank will operate and how it will guard against those problems?

Turning to the specifics of the documents, I will look at the need case. Although we agree that there is an urgent need for a diverse range of new, nationally significant energy infrastructure—I emphasise “diverse range”—does the Minister consider that enough is being done to avoid this dash for gas without any carbon abatement; and that the case for additional electricity capacity has been effectively made?

In the overarching document it is calculated that the 26 gigawatts of required new electricity energy supply, over and above the 33 gigawatts that would need to come from renewables, would in effect be determined by industry. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool said, there is a concern that the balance could come largely from gas, thus undermining both the Government’s declared commitment to an energy mix and carbon reduction. Since the earlier NPS, projections for gas demand have changed significantly. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain why that is the case. Given that this is a significant change, when does he think the NPSs will next be updated?

If we look at the new gas capacity in the pipeline—forgive the pun—there is already over 14 gigawatts with consent, being built or still in the pre-IPC regime. There are also further gas and nuclear applications in the IPC system at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool raised concerns on this issue about the need to assess those applications at different stages of the planning process. Obviously, the Government want to encourage greater capacity for renewables as part of the diverse range, but there is a concern that the new gas and nuclear applications could crowd out the renewables. Can the Minister give an assurance that this will not happen? How will he ensure that we strengthen our renewable capacity as part of ensuring that we have a diverse range of new energy infrastructure and meet our target for renewables of 15 per cent by 2020?

The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, spoke of progress on renewables in Spain, particularly on wind energy. Does the Minister share my concern that Renewables UK has reported a 50 per cent drop in planning approvals for wind farms in England over the last year? What plans do the Government have to reverse this trend?

Looking at the figures for projections of capacity in part 3 of the overarching statement, the Minister will be aware of the potential for a significant energy gap. At the same time, there are doubts about the assessment on which this is based. There will need to be a more thorough assessment of electricity demand and generation, including of that already in the pipeline of the planning process. It would be helpful and I would appreciate it if the Minister could share that information with both the House and the wider public as he gets it.

These are highly complex issues. Significant planning and risk analysis is essential. If, for any reason, any of the assumptions on which the Government have based their plans are wrong, or if there are delays in providing infrastructure caused by planning or other reasons, the Government will have to find other ways of meeting the targets to ensure energy security and low-carbon energy. The noble Lords, Lord Giddens and Lord Teverson, also raised this issue in relation to carbon capture and storage. What if it proves not to be successful? I take on board the comments of the noble Lord about its effectiveness but that has yet to be tested so that we and investors can have absolute confidence. What are the implications if it is not successful? Is there a plan B?

I noted that the recommendation from the Committee on Climate Change, endorsed by the Select Committee in another place, that it should be clear in the NPS that the electricity sector should be fully decarbonised by 2030. That was rejected by the Government. I hope that the Government can look at this issue again to see if it is possible.

Finally, there is something that I was disappointed that the Minister did not raise in his speech. He will understand why I am doing so. The previous Government paved the way on these policy statements and did much of the groundwork on the documents. The greatest fear now must be delay. That means getting the planning, assumptions and alternatives right. If we do not, we underestimate the seriousness of the issue and the implications of not getting it right. I welcome our debate today. The challenge now is to ensure that the Government can deliver these objectives. We will do our best, as always, to co-operate with the Government to ensure that we have energy security and—as I pointed out in my question to the noble Lord in the House earlier, when I was grateful for his answer—that consumers do not pay the highest price. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marland]

As I said, the noble Lord has great knowledge in this area and we take on board what he has to say. I am perfectly happy to discuss this with him later to see how we can improve. It is a complicated area, as the noble Lord knows.

I will deal with the issue, raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, of nuclear subsidy. The Government do not intend to provide a subsidy for nuclear because it is a very mature market. Subsidies should be for new technologies, which we can pump-prime to generate electricity. Of course we should maximise our resources in oil and gas, but we should also husband them because they do not last forever, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said. That requirement is satisfied. We have just granted licences in the Shetlands to allow new oil drilling to happen.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, for answering half my questions and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for his sage-like remarks and for laying out the landscape for us. He rightly says, in the true Conservative way, that we will look at the costs. We cannot waste taxpayers’ money and must be careful. We must also remove any impediments to this substantial development.

I will be as brief as I can in answering the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, whom I thank for her co-operation. She asked about the Localism Bill and what is material in the Secretary of State putting a matter to the vote. I am not the arbiter of what is material and neither is she. We all know in our heart of hearts what is material and what we would expect. We will bring the usual pressures to bear through the other place or here to make sure that anything material gets debated because of the cross-relationship.

I mentioned earlier our reason for abolishing the IPC. The noble Baroness asked me to talk about the green investment bank, which is complicated. We have committed money to it. It is being set up primarily to commit to new technologies. We are investing taxpayers’ money and other banking institutions’ money in it. Therefore, there will be a rigorous test of whether it is a profitable enterprise. It is not a giveaway bank; it is an investment bank. However, it is an investment opportunity that will be available to people with new technologies to help them develop, provided they have a profitable end to them. We are not in the business of unprofitable enterprises.

The need case that was referred to is set out clearly in the 2050 Pathways Analysis, which is a very substantive document. If the noble Baroness would like to discuss issues on that after the event, I am very happy to do so. She also mentioned Renewables UK, the “dash for gas” and all those sorts of things. We need to have a broad portfolio in order to achieve our 2050 pathway, which is an enormous task. There is no point in saying, “I don’t like that, and I don’t like that”. We have to like it all because we need it, and we owe it to the next generations among us here to provide it. We cannot say, in our own isolated world, that we think this and we think that. We owe it to the next generations to deliver their requirements in a low-carbon, secure-energy framework. That is why I commend these NPSs to the Committee.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the noble Lord for the time and care that he has taken to address many of the questions asked of him today. Perhaps I can press him on one point that I do not think he was able to answer. He said, in response to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, that he would look at it again and take it back and discuss it with colleagues. If he were to do that and if changes were made to the national policy statement as a result, would that have to go through another round of consultation and another revised document, or could it be inserted as a result of the consultation and before it was put to a vote in the House of Commons?

[Lord Marland]

This matter goes to the House of Commons for a vote, where they can vote. It will happen in the spring. They are perfectly entitled to have amendments put in there for consultation. It may or may not be feasible that the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, will be something that the Government want to achieve. I am happy to explore them with him, as one would with any development of a policy, but whether that would come in this policy, in an attachment to the energy policy or in future national policy statements is another matter. We are trying to achieve what we have set out here in this policy.

Bloody Sunday Inquiry

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, first, I put on record how grateful I am to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for giving us the opportunity for today’s debate, which, after the contributions we have heard, has been extremely worth while. I thank my noble friend Lady Royall for her comments earlier, with which I associate myself. I join others in praising the commitment and diligence of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, and his team. This was clearly a highly complex, controversial and difficult inquiry, and the final report and the Government’s response do both him and the Government great credit.

Many of your Lordships have quoted from the report. He makes it clear that none of the 13 people who were killed or those who were injured posed a threat of causing death or serious injury on the day now known as Bloody Sunday. His conclusion regarding what happened on that day is the quote that most affected me. He said:

“What happened on Bloody Sunday strengthened the Provisional IRA, increased nationalist resentment and hostility towards the Army and exacerbated the violent conflict of the years that followed. Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the wounded, and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland”.

It was not just a catastrophe for some people of Northern Ireland, for one community or another; it was clearly a catastrophe for the whole of Northern Ireland and beyond. Although in 1972 alone 500 lost their lives, in over 30 years more than 3,500 were killed and many more were wounded. It just was not possible for people to get on with their lives and put behind them the violent political war around them; it touched every part of society.

The effects of those years never leave those who lived through them. We are all aware of the obvious impact, but a small example, not a dramatic one, was brought home to me shortly after I was made a Minister for Northern Ireland in 2001. That was a time, as noble Lords may recall, when the Assembly was suspended, at the time of what became known as Stormontgate. My noble friend Lady Armstrong informed me that I was going there as a Minister, she said for a matter of weeks or possibly a few months. I remained there for three and a half years. While I was on my first duty weekend, Belfast was hit by a bomb scare. My recollection is that the bomb was real but for some reason it did not properly detonate, so there were no injuries, but it created total chaos and traffic congestion all through Belfast on a Friday afternoon. Roads were closed, and people could not get home or into events in the city in the evening. That night at a concert at the Waterfront Hall, it was obviously the main topic of conversation. The comment that stayed with me was from a woman of about the age that I am now. She was really quite upset and said, “I’d forgotten. This is what it was like every single day, and today has brought it all back”. She went on to tell me that she had sent her children across to England to get them out of Northern Ireland. She was not the only one. There were so many young people, crucial to the future of Northern Ireland, who left their homes. Many of them never returned. In so many ways, the euphemistically named Troubles were a catastrophe for the whole of Northern Ireland.

In looking at the issues that the Saville report raises and the wider issue of how we deal with the past, I should like to use my time in this debate to speak as a former victims Minister for Northern Ireland, in which I followed in the distinguished footsteps of my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton. In that role I visited and spoke with many individuals and groups across the political divide who had lost loved ones, and with others who had been injured and suffered themselves. For very different reasons, they all described themselves as victims or survivors of the Troubles. It is very difficult for us in other parts of the UK to really and truly appreciate the depth and impact of these emotions. When so many people in the community have been affected and had to live with the suffering day in and day out, that collective experience can offer support. It can, however, also make it far harder to bear. There is an incredible network of support groups for victims and survivors. Some are for just one section of the community, whereas others are cross-community; some offer counselling and some offer health treatments. They all, however, offer comfort.

Among the organisations that had an impact on and impressed me was one called CALMS, in Londonderry, or Derry, where I met two young women from very different backgrounds. One had lost her brother, who had been in the IRA, while the other—who had become her friend—was from a Protestant background; I think it was her father who had been killed. Both of them and their families had suffered, but they had been prepared to talk to each other and share their grief. They wanted to try to understand something from the experience. They admitted that it was difficult. Neither felt completely at ease in each other’s community, but they had challenged each other’s misconceptions about who they were and what they believed in, with amazing results. Others found it far harder to mix in that way but nevertheless found comfort in being able to relax with others who had been affected as they had, and who understood.

I was hugely impressed by a group of RUC widows that I met—women who, when their husbands died, were left with small children and had to raise families on their own, with very little support. They had never been thanked or praised for what they had achieved for their families. I also recall visiting Ballymurphy women’s centre in west Belfast, which my noble friend referred to a moment ago. At that time there were few ministerial visits to the area and a heavy police presence. Outside the centre, there was a peaceful but clearly highly emotional demonstration for the 11 people killed in 1971, as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, described. They held up photographs of their loved ones who had been killed. They just wanted to know why this was allowed to happen and how it could have happened. They just wanted answers.

Many people have struggled to make sense of the information they have received about the death of their loved one. I met so many people who had painstakingly tried to piece together information from different sources to try to get to the truth. Others just wanted the opportunity to tell the story of how they had been affected without the fear of others’ judgment. I think I understand the Government’s position on not having any new inquiries but I do not yet understand what will replace them. The Minister has referred to the work of the HET and the police ombudsman. However, we can never use those to replace a mechanism for getting to the truth, or underestimate the need to know the truth. That is not to say that it is easy, because it is not. It is often difficult and often painful and it is always complex. However, it is surely the right thing to do.

The extremely impressive report by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and Denis Bradley faced some criticism when the Consultative Group on the Past, which they jointly chaired, tried to address how Northern Ireland can deal with its past. Some of the proposals were more acceptable than others to the majority, but the group’s work was impressive and comprehensive and tried to address not only the complexities but the pain. It advised against public inquiries but considered that an historical cases review body—a legacy commission—could be part of the way forward. So I know that there are different views on this issue. Some want an independent national committee or a truth commission, while for others it is more personal. It is clear, though, that doing nothing about the past is not an option, and where collusion is suspected it is all the more important.

I appreciate the arguments about the cost of inquiries or the alternatives; surely there is not a single person in Northern Ireland who supports the inquiries who could not think of other ways to spend that money, such as on creating jobs or on building new schools. We have also heard about the need for hip replacements. However, it is the Troubles that have exacted such a high price in both financial and human cost that it is probably immeasurable. That creates a duty to try to take some action to deal with the issues that have been raised today.

I am not aware that anyone is asking for any other Saville-type open-ended inquiries. People are asking for a mechanism that allows independent investigation and an apology where appropriate, and that is essential.

In looking to the future, we cannot see political issues in isolation. We have to recognise the current economic climate and its impact on the political. During those 30 years or so, Northern Ireland did not suffer just physically and emotionally, it also suffered economically. Today’s report from PricewaterhouseCoopers makes worrying reading. It reports that 20,000 jobs could be lost under the public spending cuts, which would have a knock-on effect of 16,000 job losses in the private sector. Will the Minister press on the Government the need to consider seriously the impact of any public expenditure cuts in Northern Ireland? For reasons that have been discussed today, there has been a greater emphasis and dependence there on the public sector, which provides around 30 per cent of the jobs in the economy. Who other than the Government would invest in Northern Ireland after Bloody Sunday?

The devolved Administration are committed, and actively seeking, to bring in new private investment and create a greater proportion of private sector jobs. To succeed in that, though, they need the political stability to earn and maintain the confidence of private investors. If cuts are made too deeply and quickly, that will impact on the economic—and therefore the political—stability of Northern Ireland, and that hard fought-for private sector investment will just melt away. Political and economic stability are related, and it would be illogical and wrong for the Government to work to preserve one while undermining the other.

In conclusion, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, and his team have done more than present an exceptional report on Bloody Sunday; they have reinvigorated the quest for truth. Governments, in setting up the inquiry and in the way that they have responded, have helped to create confidence in the process of truth and investigation. The challenge now is to ensure that everything possible is done to maintain economic and political stability for the whole of the community, and that the way forward meets the needs of the future and does not ignore, but properly deals with, the issues of the past.