Brexit
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Well, my Lords, what an extraordinary response.
On Saturday, MPs from all parties voted to seek an extension to ensure that the necessary legislation will be passed prior to Brexit day. The Prime Minister maintains that his deal, and its enabling legislation, must be delivered by 31 October, yet your Lordships’ House has always said that such a self-imposed deadline runs the risk of either not completing the legislation and crashing out or making serious errors in haste.
The Letwin amendment provides insurance against “no deal by default” as the legislation must be in place first—a perfectly reasonable approach. The new Bill is likely to run to around 100 pages or more, about the size of the document I am holding, and will include arrangements for the new border down the Irish Sea, a range of vital protections for EU citizens and a range of broad delegated powers. It will probably include Henry VIII powers; perhaps the Minister can confirm whether that is the case. It will also amend or repeal parts of the original withdrawal Act, to which your Lordships’ House devoted something like 150 hours of consideration. This is significant and complex legislation, which will need proportionate scrutiny. To seek to force a Bill of this complexity through both Houses of Parliament in a little over a week is irresponsible.
Mr Johnson’s response on Saturday was like the tantrum of a naughty child. Yes, he sent the letter, but he did so in the most contemptuous way possible. He has shown no respect for the second withdrawal Act, so perhaps we should not be surprised that he shows such disdain for the normal scrutiny processes of Parliament. I have two questions for the Minister on top of my question about Henry VIII powers. Can he confirm that this House and its committees will have an appropriate amount of time to scrutinise the legislation? Secondly, will all supporting documentation, including impact assessments, be published alongside the Bill?
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. On her first point, the deadline is not self-imposed; 31 October is the legal default. I must say, I am delighted to hear her new-found enthusiasm for parliamentary scrutiny; it seemed a little absent when we were told that we had to push the Benn Act through all its stages in this House in less than a day. Of course, the usual channels will discuss the appropriate scrutiny provisions for the Bill with third parties and others.
We have been talking about these issues for three years. I have lost track of the countless hours that I have stood at this Dispatch Box and answered questions on a range of such issues. If the House is willing and able, we need to give the Bill proper scrutiny but we need to pass it so that we can get this done by 31 October.
Brexit
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. There were some points of difference from what the Prime Minister said, which I will come to. I listened carefully to what she said. It is now 1,212 days since we heard the outcome of the 2016 referendum vote, and few could have foreseen how Brexit would lead to our politics and our country being so uncertain and bitterly divided. Nobody could have predicted that Parliament would be sitting on a Saturday to debate the merits of the “new” Brexit deal, which is inferior to the one previously rejected by an historic margin.
The noble Baroness says that the Government will now speak for the 52% and the 48%. I had hoped that honouring the referendum result meant more than just one side saying, “We won, you lost. Get over it”. I had hoped that, during this process, there would be a recognition that in this huge democratic exercise, while 17.4 million people voted to leave, more than 16 million people made it clear that they were very much against that. So yes, there is a mandate, but not one to ignore the wishes of almost half the voting public. The real challenge for the Government was not just to leave the EU but to do so in a way that respected the votes of all their citizens, and to seek to unite our country rather than foster division. In that challenge, the Government have failed—spectacularly.
Our politics is not built on a winner-takes-all system. When one party wins a general election, it does not take every seat in the House of Commons. Our system and constitution ensure a voice and a role for the Opposition, as well as a clear, scrutinising, advisory role for your Lordships’ House. In the Statement in the House of Commons today, the Prime Minister made several references to the role of that House. The noble Baroness spoke instead of an ongoing role for both Houses of Parliament. It would be nice to know which the Prime Minister intends.
As we know, power in our politics lies ultimately with Parliament as a body, not just with the Prime Minister or the Executive. It was your Lordships’ House that ensured a role for all MPs in reaching a final decision on how we leave the EU, with our amendment on a meaningful vote for the elected House. That is why they are sitting today—which they may not thank us for.
The way Boris Johnson is trying to portray his deal is reminiscent of Theresa May’s Brexit offer, when she also claimed that it was “taking back control” and the “best” and “only” deal possible. As it was previously, the route to the deal before us today was a rollercoaster ride. I have to admit to some cynicism about how much of that has been stage managed. Deadlines were imposed and missed. Expectations were ramped up, only to be dampened down. As ever with this Government, sabres were rattled and then hastily tucked away again. Then, all of a sudden, the proverbial white smoke emerged. Now I do want to put on record that we should all be immensely grateful to the negotiating team officials for their hard work and dedication throughout the entire process. It has been a huge challenge.
Other than to debate matters of war, the last time this House sat on a Saturday was in 1949. At that time, the very concept of some kind of Europe-wide union was a hope held by some men and women who, having lived through a terrible conflict, sought to forge a path to a sustainable, long-term partnership of peace and prosperity. Yet here we are, 70 years later, examining a revised withdrawal agreement and political declaration for our departure.
Despite the assertions of No.10, let us remember one thing: it was not the current Prime Minister who forced Brussels to reopen the withdrawal deal. Given that a majority of MPs rejected the previous agreement three times, the EU heard the very clear message that Mrs May’s deal could not be ratified. For many Conservative MPs, the issue was the backstop—but that, after all, was intended to come into force only if all else failed. Jonathan Powell, who did so much in Downing Street with Tony Blair to bring about the Good Friday agreement, said that while some,
“claim they have got rid of the backstop … they have in fact transformed it from a fallback into the definitive future arrangement for NI with the province remaining in the Single Market and Customs Union”.
So, instead of leaving the future status of Northern Ireland up for negotiation in the next stage of talks, a new set of arrangements will be in place until at least 2024, with a further two-year wind-down period if consent is withdrawn. Even the DUP, which has kept this Government afloat, rejects this. I am sad to see that DUP Peers are not in their places today and contributing to this debate. These proposals introduce a border down the middle of the Irish Sea, despite the previous derision of the Prime Minister and his ERG allies on this.
Our concern with the original deal was that Mrs May had failed to provide enough clarity over the UK’s future relationship with the EU in areas that we consider crucial. It was unclear what form of trade relationship she envisaged beyond cross-border trade being “as frictionless as possible”. That meant little certainty for businesses, preventing industry from planning ahead and unlocking new investment. There were no concrete commitments on UK participation in EU agencies, nor on the extent of future co-operation on security matters. That potentially left consumers getting a worse deal and our security services facing significant gaps, putting UK citizens at risk.
The political declaration is aspirational, and it is of major concern that it now contains issues that were previously nailed down in the legally binding withdrawal agreement—for example, the level playing field for social rights. Now this is in only the political declaration, which merely references maintaining present standards,
“at the end of the transition period”,
and notes:
“The precise nature of commitments should be commensurate with the scope and depth of the future relationship”—
which is uncertain. So there are no guarantees on employment or environmental protection beyond the end of the transition period.
Paragraph 25 of the original declaration, which committed the UK to considering long-term regulatory alignment, has vanished, and there are other indications that the Government will be able to pursue wholesale divergence, to the detriment of businesses, employees, consumers and the environment.
In some areas, however, Mr Johnson’s Brexit provides a greater degree of certainty—but not in a positive way. The Government’s ambition is limited to negotiating a free trade agreement, rather than seeking a closer arrangement such as an association agreement. The Treasury’s own analysis predicts a loss of more than 6% of potential GDP growth in the next 15 years, equivalent to each household losing well over £2,000. The political declaration confirms that the agreement will include rules of origin requirements, thus selling out the UK car industry.
The level playing field commitments in the political declaration are vague. That is why the TUC’s Frances O’Grady warns that the deal is,
“a disaster for working people”,
that would,
“hammer the economy, cost jobs and sell workers’ rights down the river”.
Meanwhile, the National Farmers’ Union is concerned about British standards being undercut, with our market potentially opened up to products that could not be legally produced in this country. So what is before us seems to take us a step closer to hardcore Brexiteers in the ERG, rather than a common-sense Brexit that could have benefited citizens and the economy.
So this does not strike me as a “great new deal”, as the noble Baroness read out in her Statement—and it does not seem to have struck others in that way, either. The CBI’s Carolyn Fairbairn speaks of business having,
“serious concerns about the direction of the future UK-EU relationship”,
with the new deal being “inadequate” for the service sector, which makes such a significant contribution to our economy. The Institute of Directors, while admitting some guarded relief at recent progress, says that,
“if a passable deal is in touching distance then politicians on all sides should be pragmatic about giving us the time to get there”.
This is key. The deal is unsatisfactory. I have always thought that the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act—the Benn Act—could have been a lifeline for a Prime Minister close to a deal but without the final details. He should use that time available—no ifs, no buts and certainly no second letters.
But everyone is losing patience. An extension will work on only two grounds: first, if a Prime Minister is willing to compromise to gain a majority in Parliament; or, secondly, to seek a public mandate. If MPs do not accept the deal today, the impasse cannot continue. We have moved on from abstract views and opinions. Nobody who voted in the referendum of 2016 could have even imagined the deal being presented today by the Prime Minister. At the beginning of this process, when Article 50 was invoked, I argued against a second referendum. We had barely started dealing with the outcome of the first. But now, with all that has gone before us and the incompetent way in which Brexit has been handled by the last three Prime Ministers and their Governments, we have a responsibility to put the real choice—the actual choice—to the public. If this is the best Brexit that a Brexit-believing Prime Minister considers can be delivered, why not seek a public mandate for it? Anything less would be a dereliction of duty.
Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I feel I have heard some of those words before in many other Statements. To be clear, what the Urgent Question asked was when the Government intend to publish the full legal text of proposed changes to the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration. MPs will be asked to make a judgment on this and consider the Prime Minister’s offer. I am not going to call it a deal, because a deal to me is something that is agreed between two parties. At the moment, this is an offer from the Government which, as I understand it, has not found favour with anyone yet except the Government’s partners, the DUP. Unfortunately, they are not in the Chamber.
The Prime Minister’s language on this has changed. First, he said he would die in a ditch rather than ask for an extension beyond 31 October, then this was going to be a take-it-or-leave-it offer and now he talks about negotiations and having a basis for discussion. There are probably three things to ask here. First, there is the issue of confidentiality. My understanding is that both the President of the European Commission and the Irish Prime Minister have called for the legal text to be published. It is just the British Government who are saying that they do not want to publish it.
Secondly, in two different places, the Statement says that:
“Under no circumstances will the United Kingdom place infrastructure, checks or controls at the border”.
“At the border” is very specific. I have two questions for the Minister about that. Could the offer that is being made to the EU, which we do not know the details of, mean that the EU would need to put checks or infrastructure in place? Is the UK considering checks or infrastructure at locations other than the border? Those are very important questions, given how specific the Statement is.
People also want more information on employment, consumer and environmental rights—that is why seeing the detail of the legal text, rather than just brief Statements, is so important. Can the Minister confirm that we will maintain the levels of protection we have and keep pace with the EU in future?
My final point relates to the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive having to consider the arrangements on the border every four years. Can the Minister give any examples of such arrangements being in place, or reference any treaty or agreement, in respect of which the parliament or assembly that has to make the decisions is not active? It seems an extraordinary way forward.
It would help the House if the Minister could respond to these questions. I struggle to understand why the legal text cannot be published to parliamentarians in this country so that we can see the detail of it.
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. Of course, implicit in her first question was the fact that discussions are continuing; she was quite right about that. These are proposals from the United Kingdom, as she says. It appears that they may not have found favour with the EU, so talks will continue and the texts may change. She can rest assured that, as soon as we have any concrete proposals, we will bring them back to the House and we are considering whether they should be published before then. As soon as it is helpful to the negotiation process, we will indeed do that.
The noble Baroness asked whether the EU will put checks or infrastructure in place. I do not know. It is a question for the EU. How they choose to interpret their regulations is a matter for them. We very much hope not. We have said that we are prepared to work with them.
We have no plans for any infrastructure at the border, as I said. We have always said that there will have to be customs checks, but they can be done in traders’ premises and places such as haulage depots and others away from the border, similar to the way in which we conduct excise checks now. I remind the noble Baroness that there is already a VAT border, an excise border, a currency border. The excise regulations are currently enforced by both sides, by co-operative, pragmatic, low-profile, intelligence-led policing, in co-operation with the Irish authorities. We envisage something similar.
The issue of social and environmental protection goes back to a question that I answered last week from the Liberal Democrats. I remind the noble Baroness that we already exceed EU minimum standards in a whole range of areas—be it holiday pay, maternity protections, workers’ rights, et cetera, our standards are already higher than those mandated by EU minimum standards. That also applies to environmental standards; our climate change targets are higher than the whole of the rest of the European Union.
Lastly, on the noble Baroness’s question about the consent procedure, clearly, it is a challenge that the Northern Ireland Assembly is not sitting, and we are working hard to get it reinstated. We are prepared to discuss the details of these proposals but we believe that, when one is going to subject an area of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to control by an external body through alignment with EU single market standards, which we are proposing in a compromise for Northern Ireland, it is right that the people of that area should have the opportunity to give their consent or otherwise to those proposals.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, by way of explanation, I said that the DUP were not represented here. I see that they have now taken their seats, and we look forward to hearing from them.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I hope that the Minister understands that part of the reason for our demand to see the full text is that many of us neither trust the Government nor are convinced that they understand quite where they are going. In answer to my question last week, the Minister insisted, as he just has again, that the Government are aiming for higher standards than common European standards. Yet, since he gave that any answer, I have seen a number of briefings for the press from Ministers and sources in No. 10 which suggest that we want more flexible standards to be able to open up to a range of things, which suggests lower standards. It says here that we are not prepared to be a “rule-taker”. It also says that we want to renegotiate the political declaration so that we can have our own regulations.
When I was following Margaret Thatcher’s proposals for the single market in the early 1980s—the Minister is probably too young to remember that period—the argument which was made by those around Margaret Thatcher was that we were a rule-taker. We by and large took US regulations and taking part in creating European regulations would give us much more of a handle on questions such as how we coped with the internet, and what is now the whole digital economy, and we would therefore be able to take part in making our own regulations.
There seems to be a fantasy in the Government that we are not going to follow American regulations or European regulations but we will be a wonderful island with our own special regulations in this whole area, which will make it much more difficult to trade and produce services in collaboration with others. Is that the direction we are going in, or are we going back, as some Ministers seem to have suggested at the weekend, to following American regulations instead?
Brexit
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Robathan (Con)
My Lords, so after three and a quarter years, here we are again discussing Brexit. Actually, there are one or two new things to be discussed, such as this proposal that we have just heard and that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has been talking about, but basically, there is nothing much that is new. The old arguments have been trotted out, so I will not disappoint the House and will repeat one or two.
Those who voted for a referendum, which I did not, who voted to implement Article 50, who stood on manifestos in 2017 promising to implement the results—
“no deal is better than a bad deal”,
it said in the Conservative Party manifesto—who promised to accept the result at the very beginning shame themselves by their obstructionism. I particularly single out the Liberal Democrats, although it is sad that there are only three here to listen.
Lord Robathan
There are only three Liberal Democrats here to listen to me. These people have avoided listening to me, but they went on for years about how they were campaigning for “a real referendum” on Europe, under Nick Clegg. Paddy Ashdown boasted that he called for a referendum on Europe in 1989 or 1990. Let me quote the late Paddy Ashdown:
“I will forgive no one who does not accept the sovereign voice of the British people … whether it’s by one percent or 20 percent”.
That was on the day of the referendum. Now, the Liberal Democrats have decided, “We will ignore the British people, ignore what they said, because we know better”, notwithstanding 10 years of campaigning for a referendum.
Why have we been called back? While we are here for a total of seven or eight days, we at least are discussing Brexit. Down the other end, an empty House of Commons has been discussing the Domestic Abuse Bill—a very important measure.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
The noble Lord says that it is an important measure, but he seems to be critical of what the House of Commons was discussing. I think he ought to be very careful where he goes with this.
European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill
Baroness Smith of Basildon ExcerptsFriday 6th September 2019
(5 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Callanan
I think some noble Lords might want answers to some of the questions that have been asked, particularly about the Government’s intentions—
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
If I might help the noble Lord, the only point of dissent there was that we are not at Third Reading but the Do Now Pass stage.
Lord Callanan
I apologise—perhaps the legal officials did not explain it to me clearly enough. I thank the noble Baroness for her clarification.
My noble friends Lady McIntosh of Pickering and Lord Hailsham raised concerns about whether the Government would request an extension but then vote against it in the European Council. I reiterate, as we have stated many times, that the Government have been clear that we will of course adhere to the law. Noble Lords have the text of Clause 1(4) in front of them and can see what it requires. The noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Falkner of Margravine, and my noble friends Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Leigh of Hurley have raised the prospect that the extension could come with conditions. Noble Lords are well aware of my position, which is of course that the Bill hands powers to the European Union, and it is true that the Bill, as drafted—
Brexit: Appointment of Joint Committee
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
That, further to the resolutions of this House on 14 and 28 January, and that of the House of Commons on 14 March, it is expedient that a joint committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the costs and implications for the United Kingdom of exiting the European Union without a withdrawal agreement on 31 October 2019, and that the committee should report its findings by 30 September 2019.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I have tabled this Motion, following discussions across the House, because while leaving the EU without a deal was previously viewed as a mere bargaining chip, now it looms as a real possibility. Your Lordships’ House has been clear that it opposes a no-deal Brexit as damaging to the interests of the UK, and MPs have expressed similar views.
At what could be his last appearance at the Dispatch Box as Chancellor, Philip Hammond restated that leaving without a deal would be,
“bad for the British economy”.—[Official Report, Commons, 2/7/19; col. 1056.]
Yet Ivan Rogers, who served with distinction as Permanent Representative to the EU, has predicted that, with patience running out and a new Prime Minister likely to move the goalposts, no deal is now the most likely outcome. We cannot know for certain what either Conservative leadership candidate will do come 11 pm on 31 October with no ratified deal. However, neither seems alarmed at the prospect. This is perhaps unsurprising, given that their current pitch is not to the nation but to the mere 0.3% of UK adults who are members of their party.
Boris Johnson, never one to fuss about detail, does not realise that without a deal there will be no implementation period. No withdrawal agreement means just that—no agreement. Just out. End of. But as both contenders now consider no deal a serious option, we need to be 100% honest about the implications for our economy, policing and national security, food and medicine supplies, transport, travel and every area of our lives where we currently interact with the EU.
I am grateful for the work of colleagues across your Lordships’ House on various EU committees, plus the expertise offered by hundreds of witnesses, that has resulted in many detailed reports assessing the implications of exiting with or without any agreement. Those reports will be invaluable to the proposed Joint Committee. With the deadline at the end of October and a new Prime Minister later this month, it is time to update and reassess the risks and implications.
This Motion, like others we have considered, is designed to be helpful to this House and the other place, ensuring that, when debating contentious issues, we deal with fact and not just opinion. Even those who opposed our special Select Committee on the then Trade Union Bill later confirmed its value. We also agreed a similar procedural Motion on the English votes for English laws legislation in 2015. At that time the Government refused to engage, but the stakes are so much higher now. Honest, forensic assessment is essential.
I know that there are some, even in your Lordships’ House, for whom crashing out holds no fear. If convinced of the benefits of a no-deal exit, they should also welcome such an inquiry.
One task of the Joint Committee will be to assess our readiness for and the implications of an abrupt exit. Last week we heard of the imminent departure of Tom Shinner, the top civil servant of the Department for Exiting the European Union who was overseeing no-deal planning. He follows HMRC’s Karen Wheeler, who until last week was responsible for no-deal border planning covering the Port of Dover and Northern Ireland. We also know that Oliver Robbins will cease his role; demonised by some, he remains the only person who has managed to negotiate a deal that respects both the Government’s and the EU’s red lines.
Despite the EU asserting that it will not reopen discussions on the withdrawal agreement, the two leadership candidates are busy appointing negotiating teams. Mr Johnson is relying on that man of moderation, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay, who in presenting the Government’s case on the extension to Article 50 said:
“I commend the … motion to the House”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/3/19; col. 628.]
He then voted against it—just the man to lead sensitive negotiations requiring trust. Jeremy Hunt, meanwhile, has engaged former Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Perhaps he will bring some much-needed reality to trade negotiations, given the Canadian experience. Or perhaps not, given last night’s report that Canada is refusing to roll over CETA in the event of no deal.
The National Audit Office reports that the new customs IT systems are not ready. Meanwhile, crucial legislation on immigration and trade is not on the statute book, and it is hard to see either Bill being enacted by October. While hundreds of no-deal SIs may have superficially transferred the functions of EU agencies to UK public bodies, are we truly confident that they have the capacity to deliver from day one? For example, the Health and Safety Executive would immediately take over chemicals regulation, despite never having had this responsibility before.
Many other examples exist. We should also be concerned about food and product safety if UK bodies lose access to EU-wide alert systems and databases with nothing in place to take on that responsibility. As the Road Haulage Association declared today, businesses still do not know what is expected of them, with the potential for massive backlogs at ports costing billions. A Joint Committee should be prepared to assess whether the necessary legislation, structures and organisations are in place and operational.
A committee should also consider the economic implications. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders estimates that without a deal customs delays could cost up to £50,000 a minute. Some £4.5 billion of WTO tariffs would undermine our auto industry’s competitiveness just when British manufacturing is fighting for its survival. Tesco, Britain’s largest retailer, has warned that no deal in October would be more problematic than it would have been in March, given the pressures of Christmas. Other food manufacturers and retailers remain apprehensive about their ability to import and preserve fresh fruit, vegetables and other perishable goods. The Bank of England estimated an immediate hit to the economy roughly equivalent to the 2008 financial crisis and a crash in the pound, disrupting trade and closing businesses.
In an unprecedented joint letter to the Prime Minister, the heads of the TUC and the CBI warned of the dangers to the economy, stating that the shock would be felt for generations to come. The danger is real, yet Mr Hunt has said that, in the event of no deal, he would tell the owners of a bankrupt business that their sacrifice had been worth it. How? To quote him, because we would be living in,
“a country where politicians do what the people tell them to do”.
That is not leadership. Politicians should tell the truth and one way of getting to the truth on this matter would be via a committee that examines, interrogates and presents the evidence.
I hope the Minister has listened to those who represent the UK’s interests across the world, including diplomats who believe that the handling of Brexit has significantly damaged our global standing. I hope he will acknowledge that, in the event of crashing out, we will immediately cease participation in EU defence missions, leading to a loss of influence in peacekeeping and anti-piracy efforts. I also hope he has read the excellent if harrowing committee report on security and policing which outlined how the UK would lose vital security databases and schemes, many with no precedent existing for third-country access. A diminished UK does not just put our own UK citizens at risk; it also damages our privileged relationships with partners such as the USA and Canada. Such drastic changes are not compatible with the vision of an outward-looking global Britain offered in the referendum.
Given the lack of clarity and predictability, surely it is right for Parliament to be fully informed and engaged. However, despite criticising Dominic Raab for suggesting that Parliament should be prorogued to force through no deal, Boris Johnson is still toying with that idea. This would be disturbingly undemocratic and the coward’s way out. Whatever happened to the Vote Leave campaign pledge to uphold UK parliamentary sovereignty?
While we have all these and many more predictions and anecdotes, Parliament has not recently been afforded an opportunity to study and comment on them, hence the Motion today. A Joint Committee of both Houses, possibly drawn from the existing membership of our own EU Committee and the Commons Exiting the EU Committee, would examine the evidence. First, it would have the power to request the type of documents that the Government have been reluctant to make available to Parliament and the public. Secondly, it would have the authority to question Ministers, civil servants, diplomats and businesspeople. Thirdly, it could provide an up-to-date picture for the incoming Prime Minister. Finally, it would give both Houses an opportunity to discuss its findings in advance of the October deadline.
I know, as does the Minister, that there are some in Government who see this Motion in the spirit it is intended and welcome it as a positive step forward, so I hope that the Minister can tell us that the Government will accept our proposals and then diligently work across both Houses—all parties and the Cross Benches—to ensure that the committee is swiftly established and able to start work. If he does not, we cannot accept marching towards the cliff edge without an up-to-date assessment of what lurks beyond. With or without Government’s support, I urge your Lordships’ House to support this proposal to provide the House of Commons with the opportunity to consider its merits and to continue working to avoid the worst of all outcomes: a chaotic, damaging, no-deal Brexit. I beg to move.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am an optimist, but I have to say that this is the Minister that consistently disappoints. I found his arguments this evening unimpressive and unconvincing. We have a new exit date. We are going to have a new Prime Minister, whoever it is, who tells us they are relaxed about no deal, which makes it a very real possibility. Somehow the Minister’s argument that the Government can force a bad deal on the country to try to avoid no deal, when they promised a good deal, is totally unacceptable. He says that they have appointed people to all the positions of those who have left, but we still do not have in your Lordships’ House a Minister for International Trade.
In answer to the question what will happen if this Motion is passed tonight—I had hoped the Minister was going to say, “Yes, what a good idea”, but I should have known better—it will be reported to the House of Commons. It will then be for the House of Commons to decide whether it wants to join us in having a Joint Select Committee of both Houses to examine the implications of a no-deal Brexit, using all the information that is currently to hand with the powers it will have as a Select Committee. This provides an opportunity for the House of Commons to ensure that happens, and the committee would then publicise the information, some of which the Government have been very reluctant to admit to, of what it really means—the good, as the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, thinks there must be, but definitely the bad as well.
We gave the Minister an opportunity today to accept what almost everybody who has spoken in the debate thinks is a positive way forward. In view of his very disappointing response, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Brexit: Date of Exit
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the resolutions of the House of Commons to reject both the negotiated withdrawal agreement titled Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community and leaving the European Union without a negotiated withdrawal agreement, what steps they will take to amend the date of exit as set out in the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
The Government have today deposited in the Libraries of both Houses a document making clear the necessary steps required to extend Article 50. The position of the House of Commons with regards to an extension of Article 50 will not be clear until the conclusion of the debate this afternoon.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, we are back to that parallel universe I referred to a few minutes ago. I ask the Minister about a no-deal Brexit and his answer is about the extension of Article 50.
This has been an extraordinary parliamentary week. On Tuesday, the Prime Minister was again defeated on her unchanged agreement with the EU. Last night, MPs rejected leaving the EU without a deal, and the Prime Minister has now to accept that she does not have the full support of her Government, or even her Cabinet. This House has also emphatically rejected no deal. Yet, in an extraordinary, intransigent speech which followed the defeat in the Commons, Mrs May appeared to want to ignore Parliament.
We are spending a great deal of time, energy and money—millions, if not billions of pounds—on preparing for a no-deal failure. One parliamentary recess has already been cancelled, and there is serious talk of longer, later and more sittings—including on Saturdays. There are even reports that the Prime Minister intends to run down the clock further to try and get her twice-rejected deal through. She is acting like the cruel parent who, when the child will not eat its dinner, serves up the same plate of cold food day after day until they are forced to accept the unwanted, the unpalatable and the dangerous.
My question, which I would have expected the noble Baroness the Leader of the House to answer, but which I put to the Minister, is: in order to give effect to what Parliament has now agreed, and to end this dreadful waste of resources and the irresponsibility that goes with it, when will the Government bring forward the necessary legislation to prevent a no-deal exit?
Lord Callanan
As the noble Baroness is well aware, since I have repeated it many times in this House—noble Lords will groan and roll their eyes—the legal position, until it is changed, is that we leave on 29 March. The Government have said that if the House of Commons wishes to vote for an extension, we will table the necessary affirmative SI, but we cannot do that until it has been agreed by the EU Council. We cannot just unilaterally extend Article 50; it has to be agreed with the Council. We will do that if an extension is agreed by the House of Commons and by the European Council.
Brexit: Non-Disclosure Agreements
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Callanan
I can only give the information that I have in front of me; I asked my department how many NDAs were in place and what they were. I will look at the situation and respond in writing if that is appropriate.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I have to say to the Minister that he answers for the whole Government when he speaks from the Dispatch Box. If his department cannot find the information, it should ask other departments. Sometimes, when I listen to his answers, I think that there is a parallel universe: there is the Prime Minister and some of her Ministers and then there are the rest of us. Most of us saw what happened in the House of Commons again last night, when MPs ruled out a no-deal Brexit, yet here the Minister is talking about no-deal Brexit non-disclosure agreements. It is hard to understand the justifications for the secrecy the Government are insisting on. Picking up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, does the Minister understand and share the frustrations of businesses and sectoral bodies subject to these gagging orders, which in many cases are deeply unhappy with the direction of travel but ultimately are unable to speak out on such a crucial issue?
Lord Callanan
Again, the noble Baroness is referring to hearsay conversations that she may or may not have had. They are not gagging orders but standard non-disclosure agreements. These are not unusual; they were used extensively throughout periods of Labour Governments as well. Many businesses are speaking out with their opinions on Brexit. Everybody has an opinion on Brexit. Believe me, I get a lot of contributions, a lot of letters and a lot of emails, from businesses and individuals, on the subject of Brexit. Nobody is being gagged.
EU Withdrawal
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, as ever we listen with great interest and expectation to the words of the Minister. Two weeks ago, having reflected on a quite crushing defeat in the House of Commons, the Prime Minister vowed to renegotiate and come back to Parliament with what, she said, would apparently be a better deal. As we edge closer to 29 March—there are now just 44 days to go—we were eagerly awaiting details of the progress made to date. But perhaps we should have known better than to expect anything of substance from the Prime Minister when her Statement was unexpectedly brought forward to yesterday afternoon. However, ever the optimist, I hoped we would hear the results of her mission to obtain legally binding changes to the withdrawal agreement. If not that, perhaps Mrs May was going to announce that she would genuinely seek to build a cross-party consensus behind a different, more detailed political declaration. Yet on both counts yesterday, we were disappointed.
For the past week, we have waited with bated breath to see the Government’s Motion for today’s debate. Perhaps the delay was a good sign; perhaps it would be a substantive Motion that we could consider and debate. But it seems to have been drafted to rub salt into already weeping wounds. All it says is that,
“this House takes note of the ongoing discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union”.
This is a debate we could have had at any point during the past two years. The Motion says nothing, does nothing and therefore means nothing. While MPs hang around waiting for that meaningful vote, all the Government have to offer us today is a meaningless debate. So the purpose of my Motion—not an amendment, as the Minister said, but a separate Motion—is to provide some meaningful structure for our deliberations today.
For the benefit of the House, I will speak to both Motions together and although it might be a vain hope—as I said, I am ever the optimist—I would welcome government support for my Motion. The Minister shakes his head; perhaps I should not be surprised but he should not smile as he does so, as it will disappoint this House. Each and every time I make a proposal, I do so after consultation and discussion with colleagues across the House. I do that because I seek to be not controversial but constructive.
We want to find a way forward that can command broad support in your Lordships’ House and allow the Government to return to Brussels with something new to say—I am sure Mr Barnier would appreciate that. We want to rule out the catastrophe of crashing out on 29 March and ensure sufficient time for proper consideration of the legislation that is needed, or required, to deliver Brexit. We will also want to ensure that the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act is not ripped up and tossed to one side. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that.
The Government’s Motion today, if taken alone, is inadequate. It asks us to take note of the ongoing discussions—but what discussions? According to media reports, EU officials were once again bewildered as the Prime Minister arrived for urgent meetings in Brussels without anything new to discuss with those whom she had requested to meet. Despite having received a constructive proposal from the Leader of the Opposition, Mrs May refuses to provide Parliament with an opportunity to vote on that proposal, while stubbornly clinging to those now discredited red lines.
Rather than listening yesterday, therefore, to the Prime Minister’s plea for more time, perhaps it would have been more fruitful for noble Lords to have gathered in a Brussels hotel bar. Hopefully, Mr Robbins was able to enjoy as many different Belgian beers as the Government have timetables for the next meaningful vote. Even as the ONS data shows slowing economic growth, with manufacturing performing as badly as at the onset of the financial crash, the Government continue to talk up a no-deal exit, and all we hear from Ministers is that the only way to prevent crashing out is to support the Prime Minister’s deal, even though she herself has already rejected part of it—the backstop.
Many noble Lords will have heard the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, interviewed on the “Today” programme last Friday. He laid out what we all know to be true. First, if the Government sought to rule out a no-deal exit at the end of March, both Parliament and the EU 27 would gladly facilitate this shift. Secondly, civil servants and local government are being forced to allocate limited resources to an outcome that, as we all know, would actively harm citizens, businesses and communities. The noble Lord also said that even if the Prime Minister was able to secure the changes she seeks, it is simply no longer possible for the Government to ensure an orderly exit from the EU on 29 March.
In that same programme, the shadow Chancellor again laid out the terms of Labour’s proposed alternative deal: a permanent and comprehensive customs union with the EU; close alignment with the single market, underpinned by shared institutions and obligations; dynamic alignment on a range of rights and protections; concrete commitments on future participation in EU agencies and funding programmes; and greater clarity on future participation in EU security mechanisms and arrangements, including the European arrest warrant. [Interruption.] There seems to be some sort of sequence dancing going on in the Chamber at the moment.
This is a serious proposition that takes on board comments from both sides of both Chambers. It is an arrangement that the Government should allow Parliament the opportunity—
Lord Lansley (Con)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I am sure that the proposal from Her Majesty’s Opposition—that we should be part of a permanent customs union—is intended to be distinctive and different. But I am still trying to work out what, in practice, the difference is between what the Opposition seek and what the Government have negotiated, as stated in paragraph 23 of the political declaration: no tariffs, no fees, no charges, no quantitative restrictions and a single customs territory that permits no checks on rules of origin. All that falls within what paragraph 17 describes as,
“the development of an independent trade policy by the United Kingdom beyond that economic partnership”.
Going through it step by step, I find it difficult to see the difference. Where is it?
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I think that was more of a speech than an intervention. There is, however, a clear and distinct difference. If the Government think, like the noble Lord, that it is the same, why do they not support our suggestion? That would be very straightforward. Our proposal is different. The same is true of common external tariffs, which my noble friend Lady Hayter will deal with at the end of the debate. If the Government are so concerned that our suggestion is the same as their suggestion, they can easily support our proposals. I would welcome the noble Lord’s support today. What is being put forward guarantees, and gets, broad support in both Houses. The way to test that is to put it to a vote in the House of Commons, to see if it commands the support of MPs in finding a meaningful way forward.
My Motion today, therefore, is intended to assist the Government. It recalls that this House, by substantial majorities, emphatically ruled out a no-deal exit and called on the Government to act accordingly; and it reflects the mood of the elected House, where MPs have twice voted against the principle of crashing out without an agreement. It asks the Prime Minister to take all steps necessary to ensure that we do not leave without a deal on 29 March. This could include seeking an extension to the Article 50 negotiating period, which would allow time to develop the political declaration in vital areas that have not been given the attention they deserve, such as security co-operation, and, echoing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, to pass the legislation that is required, or necessary—he will decide which word to use—to give effect to the final withdrawal agreement.
It would be helpful and in the interest of your Lordships’ House if the Minister could directly address the comments made by my noble friend Lord Foulkes and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, on the difference between legislation that is required by 29 March and that which is necessary. I am somewhat lost as to the distinction.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Could my noble friend ask the Minister to explain whether it is legislation necessary for a no-deal scenario or for a deal that has already been negotiated?
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am sure that the Minister has heard that, but I think that the Government have had some difficulty of their own in differentiating between what legislation is for a deal and what is for no deal. I am always delighted to receive any further clarification from the Minister, which I am sure the whole House would welcome.
I think we all understand that an extension to Article 50 would require the approval of the EU 27. However, faced with a choice between a limited extension to Article 50 and a no-deal Brexit, there is only one sensible option for both sides. Can the Government now stop dragging their feet, commit to asking for more time and therefore rule out once and for all, so that everybody knows, the most disastrous of all outcomes—a no-deal Brexit? Doing so would reassure citizens that they would not lose their basic rights, as well as businesses and communities. The fear of crashing out with no deal and of the consequences of that is not Project Fear; it is project reality. The Minister has to accept and understand those realities.
The Motion in my name also asks the Government to facilitate a further meaningful vote for MPs by the end of February and, as required under the EU withdrawal Act, to table a take-note Motion in your Lordships’ House. How timely this issue has now become. MPs will have the opportunity to vote on various amendments to a non-binding Motion tomorrow evening. That Motion was promised a fortnight ago to allow Government Whips to pick off potential rebels. Over the weekend, in an attempt to prevent a rebellion this week, the Communities Secretary committed to an extra vote by 27 February, confirmed by the Prime Minister yesterday. However, the exact nature of that vote will depend on the progress, or otherwise, of the negotiations. It could again, as will be the case tomorrow should there be a vote, be completely non-binding.
The Prime Minister is obviously trying to run down the clock and force a decision between her deal and no deal. We had confirmation of that Hobson’s choice last night, courtesy of ITV. It is only by securing a binding vote that MPs can apply the brake before we career off the cliff edge.
Viscount Ridley (Con)
The noble Baroness has been very free with her criticisms of the Government in the last few minutes, but I have not heard a squeak of criticism of the intransigence of the European Commission. Could she explain why that is?
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I do not have much responsibility for the European Commission, but I would hope that we in this House have some influence on the Government. If we cannot as a House express our concerns about how the Government should conduct the negotiations in the interests of this country, for which the Government are responsible, we would not be doing our duty. I suggest to the noble Viscount that he pay a little more attention to what the Government are doing and try to get them to behave in a way that is in the interests of all the citizens of the UK, because they have a responsibility to negotiate on our behalf in the same way as the EU 27 are negotiating on behalf of their citizens.
I would prefer not to divide the House on my Motion tonight; that is a matter for the Government. I am not the only one—the noble Lord, Lord Butler, referred to it in the previous debate and earlier this week in Questions—who has struggled to understand why the Government have not simply accepted the previous two Motions that I have tabled without us having to push the House to a Division. They recognised the supremacy of the Commons and reflected the stated intentions of the Prime Minister. The Government say that they want to avoid a no-deal outcome and that they want to engage Parliament and swiftly secure MPs’ approval for the withdrawal agreement. My Motion does not undermine any of those proposals; it reinforces them. For the third time of asking, will the Government accept that this is a common-sense Motion, take all the necessary steps in relation to Article 50 and ensure that MPs are able to engage in a meaningful and timely manner?
Brexit: Parliamentary Approval of the Outcome of Negotiations with the European Union
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(5 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her contribution on her Motion, although I am not sure that she said much about what we were expecting on the deal that we thought was in the Motion. She said that we were taking stock, but if we take stock of where we have got to so far it does not take very long because we have not got very far.
There are huge amounts of legislation still required prior to exit day, and at times the noble Baroness’s comments sounded like a lecture or a ticking-off. We should all be grateful to noble Lords across this House who give up their time and expertise to scrutinise primary and secondary legislation.
We are debating both Motions together for the convenience of the House. I will speak to my Motion and move it at the end of the debate. I will test the opinion of the House, although there are some things in what the noble Baroness said that implied that she might be able to accept my Motion. I hope that that will be the case. If the Government could indicate that, it would be very welcome. She seems a bit flustered, but I live in hope—I am one of life’s optimists. If that is not the case, I will test the opinion of your Lordships’ House.
Following the result of the referendum, few could have imagined that, more than 30 months later, there would still be so much division and so little agreement. I made the point last week, on our amendment about information required to complete consideration of the Trade Bill, about how often we were told how easy it was going to be. We were told, for example, that our existing trade agreements could be rolled over in an afternoon and new deals would be in place, apparently, one second after Brexit. Yet here we are, 60 days to exit day, with our country more divided and frustrated about the political process than ever before. Despite stark warnings, including from business, the NHS, and food producers and suppliers, the Prime Minister continues to refuse to take even one step towards ruling out the most damaging and catastrophic of outcomes: crashing out of the EU. Instead, Mrs May is seeking to use it as a bargaining chip with her MPs to try to force through a deal that has already been resoundingly rejected. As I remarked previously, the plan B that she has offered seems remarkably similar to plan A.
Despite offers of talks and political engagement, there has been no real attempt to seek wider support or build a consensus. Since the referendum, your Lordships’ House has had many contributions on the detail of how the Government should reflect the outcome of the referendum, which the noble Baroness referred to. We have had debates on legislation, Motions such as this one—I welcome the Minister back to the Dispatch Box to respond—many questions on different aspects, debates on the detailed reports of our excellent EU sub-committees, and regular Statements from the Prime Minister have been repeated, most Mondays, in your Lordships’ House. At every point, this House has sought to be useful. Many of our suggestions and amendments, including on issues such as Northern Ireland and our future relationship with the EU agencies, have ultimately been accepted or slightly amended by MPs.
I often reflect on the amendment to the withdrawal Bill tabled by my noble friends Lord Monks and Lord Lea, who sought to persuade the Government that the Prime Minister should engage with Parliament and seek a mandate for her negotiations. That way, she would have had a better idea of what Parliament would accept, which would have strengthened her hand. Instead, she chose to go it alone, with a predictable rejection, although the scale of that rejection was astounding.
Time is now running out. With the clock ticking down, and MPs voting tomorrow to seek a way forward, how can we in your Lordships’ House be most helpful? The legislation relating to a meaningful vote was initiated in this House—that is clear. It is the responsibility of the elected House to hold that meaningful vote on whether to accept the outcome of the Prime Minister’s negotiations, and it remains for the elected Members of Parliament to decide. As we draw closer to exit day, it is clear that Mrs May has failed to find acceptance for the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration that she negotiated, losing the vote in the other place with the largest parliamentary defeat in living memory. However, despite the urging of colleagues from across the political spectrum, the Prime Minister continues to raise the spectre of leaving without any deal or agreements. It is true that it is not entirely within her gift to guarantee a deal. However, Mrs May could—and should—send a clear signal to the EU 27 that all possible steps should be taken to rule out a chaotic and reckless no-deal exit. There will be different views on who must take responsibility for getting to this stage with so little clarity and agreement, and so much division across our country. But that is for another time. At this stage, a way forward has to be found.
The Motion in my name is in two parts. First, it is a factual recognition of where we are. Your Lordships’ House was clear about our position on a crash-out exit when we voted, by a majority of 169, to reject that as an option, and MPs have resoundingly rejected Mrs May’s proposals. It is probably worth noting that the House of Commons also agreed an amendment to the Finance Bill to limit the Government’s powers in the event of no deal. Secondly, my Motion proposes how we should respond to the next steps taken by the House of Commons. In some ways, that should just be taken as read, but it is worth restating. It may be that, following their debates and votes tomorrow in the other place, MPs will be no clearer as to how to proceed. But it is also possible—I said that I am an optimist—that MPs may agree on a way forward: either a conclusion or a process to reach a conclusion. Time is running out. If, in the few days that remain, the elected MPs find a course of action that has majority agreement through the Motions and amendments for debate tomorrow, we must respond positively.
Once we accept the premise that crashing out is too damaging for the UK to seriously accept, few options remain. It is for our elected colleagues to decide at this stage which option to pursue from the amendments tabled. These include: support for the Prime Minister’s Motion; some kind of indicative vote on the options that MPs may agree to; to seek more time, if no agreement can be reached at this stage, through a limited extension of Article 50; or—if there is simply no majority for any option—to return to the electorate with a further public vote.
The Labour amendment restates our policy of rejecting a no-deal outcome, seeking a permanent customs union and negotiating a strong relationship with the single market that recognises the importance of EU-derived social protections. It also acknowledges that Parliament may have to seek further approval from the public. Other proposals are on the table. Some make requests of the EU 27, particularly in relation to the backstop, while others ask the Government to pause for further reflection, instead of deliberately running down the clock and crashing out.
Tomorrow evening we may know what our elected colleagues want the Prime Minister to do next. That is, quite rightly, a decision for them and them alone. My Motion reiterates the stated position of your Lordships’ House on rejecting a no-deal Brexit, and, if the House of Commons agrees a course of action that requires new legislation, makes it clear that both the Government and this House should facilitate its passage. It is nothing more than that, but they expect nothing less of us.
I hope, therefore, that the Leader of the House and the Minister will respond positively to my proposals today. If not, I will move my Motion to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)
My Lords, it is imperative in my view, doubtless in common with the great majority of your Lordships, that we reach a deal. I believe that the Government themselves also feel this.
I do not believe that there is any greater chance of the Prime Minister allowing a no-deal Brexit, than there would be—obviously, in very different circumstances —of her authorising a nuclear strike. I am not suggesting that each would cause comparable devastation: plainly, that is not so. Indeed, it is a ridiculous thought. The critical point, however, is that it is vital to keep the risk of each—the possibility of each, however small—in play.
Obviously, no one, however passionately opposed to our maintaining a nuclear deterrent capability, could, while we continue to have it, seek to persuade Parliament to legislate against ever deploying it. Its value as a deterrent lies in the risk, however faint, that in retaliation we just might. So too, I suggest, with the possibility that we just might crash out of the EU. While that possibility exists, it must surely operate as an incentive for us to reach a deal. It is an incentive, let it be emphasised, on all—both on our own Members of Parliament and on the EU negotiators.
It is nothing short of absurd to argue that Parliament should now legislate to take a no-deal Brexit off the table. That would either force us to accept a less favourable deal than we might otherwise get or, alternatively, force us to stay in the EU.
I confess that at heart I remain a remainer, but I have finally come to accept that there should not, and now must not, be a further referendum, certainly not one that still caters to the possibility of remaining in the EU. The only conceivable further vote could be on a choice between accepting the deal on offer and exiting with no deal. But I would not legislate to take the possibility of remaining off the table either.
What of the proposed legislation to force the Prime Minister, if by 26 February she has still not achieved a parliamentary vote for a deal, to request of the EU an extension of the Article 50 process? This, I suggest, would again have the inevitable consequence of lessening the urgency of the need to agree a deal. Everyone acknowledges that EU deals are habitually reached at the 12th hour. Postpone the 12th hour, delay the date by which agreement is required and on would go this ever more depressing and debilitating process.
I do not know whether any of your Lordships have had the time or inclination over recent weeks to watch “Question Time”, now chaired by the estimable Fiona Bruce. I have watched them, and to my mind they have made one thing clear beyond all others: the general public—not every individual, of course, but the great majority—ache for a final end to this saga and are ever more critical of the politicians at Westminster for failing to bring this question to a conclusion.
I recognise, as plainly does the Prime Minister and, for that matter, the EU, that the closer to the 12th hour that any deal is agreed, the more obvious will be the need for what would, we hope, be only a short extension of the Article 50 process for the necessary legislative steps to be completed to give effect to it. But that request for an extension can and, I suggest, properly should be left to be made when the deal is struck, not in anticipation of failure and according to a given timetable.
In the last debate I voted in favour of the Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. I regret having done so for this reason: in my speech I made it explicit beyond question that I supported the Prime Minister’s deal and was urging Members at the other end to accept it, notwithstanding that the opposition Motion still included some criticisms, although markedly fewer than in the previous, pre-Christmas debate, of the deal’s likely adverse consequences. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, likewise voted for the Motion while also supporting the Prime Minister’s deal. We were therefore dismayed to hear the Opposition Bench thereafter, and indeed again today, lumping together all those who had voted for the Motion as having voted to reject the deal and calculating the majority accordingly.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble and learned Lord but perhaps I may just correct him. If he checks my comments of today in Hansard, I think he will see that I have made it clear that this House rejected no deal. My other comment was that we soundly rejected how the other place expressed its views on the Prime Minister’s deal. I made no reference in my speech today to our comments on the Prime Minister’s deal.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood
I am grateful for that; clearly, one would always accept a clarification. I confess that I understood that what came from the Front Bench was to regard the votes of all who supported the Motion as votes against accepting the deal on offer. If I am wrong, of course I withdraw that point.
In any event, I shall not be supporting the opposition Motion this time. Despite the earlier intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, I suggest that it is expressed in such abstract terms—it uses the hallowed word “appropriate”—begs so many questions and seems so elliptical in what it is inviting that it is mischievous rather than self-evidently helpful. I fear that it, too, could be misrepresented, at least to this extent. It could be misrepresented as support for legislating against a no-deal Brexit or compelling the Government to request an extension of the process, both of which—for the reasons I have already sought to give—I would regard as weakening the Government’s negotiating position and thus prejudicing the prospect of an acceptable early resolution of this most ghastly saga.
Lord Callanan
We are going round in circles here. I refer to the point that I made. Has somebody got a copy of the Motion?
Baroness Smith of Basildon
While the noble Lord is searching for a copy, I refer him to the part of my Motion that he complained about, which calls on,
“Her Majesty’s Government to take all appropriate steps to ensure that … the United Kingdom does not leave the European Union without an agreement”.
That includes getting a deal that is acceptable to the other place. What is it that he objects to?
Lord Callanan
I think that you can read that as taking no deal off the table. Of course, we are doing our best. No deal is not our preferred option. We want to avoid no deal if at all possible, but we continue to believe that the best way to avoid no deal is to vote for a deal. For the Labour Party to come along here and say that it is against everything, without putting forward any positive proposals, is not acceptable.
I have set out our position. If the noble Baroness wishes to move her Motion, she is entitled to do so. That is the end of my remarks.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
That this House, noting both its resolution of 14 January and the resolution of the House of Commons of 15 January, calls on Her Majesty’s Government to take all appropriate steps to ensure that (1) the United Kingdom does not leave the European Union without an agreement with the European Union, and (2) sufficient time is provided for this House to ensure the timely passage of legislation necessary to implement any deal or proposition that has commanded the support of the majority of the House of Commons.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, we have had the debate. I listened very carefully to what the Minister said; he did not make his case. I beg to move.