European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I briefly add my support for this amendment. It seems that much of the debate about EU withdrawal has been about economics, deals and trade, and we cannot speak of children in terms of deals or trade. Some of the most vulnerable people on our continent are children. Perhaps the most important thing is that they are the future as well as the present, and they will not forget how they have been seen and how they are regarded. So I strongly endorse the statement made by the noble Baroness earlier that children are people, not a project. I support the amendment.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an important short debate. I congratulate my noble friend Lady Massey of Darwen on the way she introduced it and on her ongoing battle to protect the rights of our children, and I expect to hear much more from her on that many times in the future.

As we have heard today, at EU level a number of key legislative mechanisms work in conjunction with each other to ensure that children’s rights are protected when EU law and policy is being developed, applied and interpreted: the ECHR, the EU charter and, crucially, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. As we have heard, the key issue is that measures enacted at EU level, whether or not they directly target children, are interpreted and applied by member states in a manner that is consistent with international children’s rights standards. It is the loss of that that so many people inside and outside Parliament are concerned about. The inadequacy of domestic legislation in doing that job has been articulated so well by my noble friends Lady Massey and Lady Lister, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. The case is compelling.

This amendment would go some way to try to rectify that by ensuring that Ministers cannot make regulations under the relevant section of the Bill without reference to the parts of the UNCRC ratified by the UK. The Government would therefore have to commit to Parliament that they would give due consideration to Part 1 of the convention before using powers transferred from the EU, and, crucially, they would have to set out an audit of how children’s rights will continue to be protected in the UK after exit day. The importance of an audit and an impact assessment—a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee—cannot be understated. Or do I mean overstated?

We all share the same goal: that we should create and maintain a society in which all children are valued, safe and able to flourish. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds made that point clearly: children are people and are our future as well as our present. But as a society we have learned slowly that the risks to children’s safety are not always obvious, nor is it always obvious which are the actions that can pay positive dividends in helping them to flourish. If we do not intentionally look at the implications of generic actions for children, there will be unintended consequences. My noble friend Lady Massey gave some good and powerful examples of that, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, gave a good case of how international law has to be used to defend those rights. It is crucial that we retain appropriate mechanisms for ensuring that due regard is paid to children’s rights when policy and law are being developed.

The Minister will have heard the concerns expressed from around the House and that the Government’s previous reassurances have not served to reassure Members or key people outside. I have two simple questions for the Minister. Does she understand why people are so concerned about what will happen to the status of children’s rights in the UK after Brexit? If so, what will the Government do to ensure that, as the Bill brings EU legislation into domestic law and transfers powers from the EU to Westminster, fundamental rights for children are not weakened in the process, either deliberately or accidentally? I look forward to her reply.

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for raising the important issue of children’s rights through this amendment. I know that both the noble Baronesses, Lady Massey and Lady Meacher, met the Children’s Minister recently to discuss these matters. I fully accept that the intention behind this amendment is clearly an honourable one. However, it would in effect add no further value to preserving current safeguards on children’s rights within the Bill. This is because the amendment implies that the EU offers additional duties or functions to safeguard children’s rights above or beyond those that exist in the UK. That concern may stem from the Government’s proposal to not retain the Charter of Fundamental Rights, subject now to further consideration when this Bill returns to the other place. However, if the charter no longer applies once we exit the EU, this would not impact on the UK’s ability to protect and safeguard children’s rights, as I shall endeavour to explain.

The amendment also states that there are some children’s rights which are not currently protected under domestic law but are under EU law. Again, however, we do not accept their construction. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised the important point about what these rights are and what will happen to them on exit. Children’s rights are, and will remain, protected in England primarily through the Children Act 1989, the Adoption and Children Act 2002, and the Children Act 2004.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Burt of Solihull]

My Lords, Amendment 68 is in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, and myself. The amendment proposes a new, short clause which is similar in its intention to that proposed by Amendments 67 and 69, to which we also added our names and which have already been debated.

The clause relates to ensuring co-operation within the EU on child maintenance claims. The importance of cross-border co-operation between the EU and the UK on enforcing child maintenance claims is clear, and I will not detain the House at this hour by going into it. However, in post-Brexit times we need a mechanism to ensure that this cross-border co-operation is maintained.

The clause is very modest in its intention. It does not tell the Government how to do this; it merely requests a report showing how it is working, or not, as the case may be. This does not seem unreasonable to me, so I hope that the Minister will undertake at least to consider this modest request. Children and families who have already suffered the challenges of family break-up across the EU are depending on it. That is all I wish to say on this proposed new clause.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, EU family law provisions are tried and tested. There is a broad consensus that they work well, and with the advent of the Brussels II recast—as it is known in the trade—they will become more effective still. At earlier stages of the Bill, I set out in some detail the challenges for international family law post Brexit, so I will not rehearse those again. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, has said, this amendment is focused on what happens to child maintenance when we leave the EU.

Child maintenance matters because parents can separate or divorce but they do not cease being responsible for their children. Children have a right to support from both parents, even if one lives abroad. Maintenance plays a key role in lifting single-parent families out of poverty. Receipt of child support is also positively associated with single parents taking up work and with children maintaining contact with a non-resident parent.

This may be private law, but the need for it to work well and be enforceable is a matter of public policy importance. Even the UNCRC mandates, at Article 27, contracting states to take all appropriate measures to secure the recovery of child maintenance and, when a parent lives abroad, to promote accession to international agreements. So there are compelling reasons for Parliament to want to be assured that we will have a well-functioning system to enable the assessment and enforcement of child maintenance owed by a parent living in one of the EU 27. The Minister told the House that, during the implementation or transition period, the current reciprocal rules, including the key EU family law instruments and Hague conventions, will continue to apply as now. Beyond that, we do not yet know what the landscape will look like.

Ministers have signalled that they would like to continue to participate in the Lugano convention, but that is nothing like a substitute for the maintenance regulation, as that part of the EU family law provisions are known. The 2007 Hague convention would go some way towards assisting with the recognition and enforcement of maintenance obligations, but it too falls well short of the maintenance regulation. It has no general system of jurisdictional rules, and you cannot enforce spousal maintenance orders via the central authorities unless they are linked to enforcement of a child maintenance order. We are left hoping that the Government will be successful in negotiating a reciprocal deal that will serve our people well. Given the significant number of international divorces, these issues cannot be ignored.

Ministers are confident that comparable reciprocal arrangements can be achieved to replace the EU family law provisions. This amendment would simply require Ministers to tell us how. If Ministers do not smile on this amendment, perhaps they could tell the House how and when the Government will update us on progress. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, for raising the important issue of child maintenance, which we recognise is of particular importance to many families across the UK. As the Government outlined in their position paper published in August last year, we are seeking a comprehensive future agreement with the EU on civil judicial co-operation that is based on the substance of the current EU regulations, including the maintenance regulation. I stress again that the precise nature of this relationship will be a matter for negotiation.

However, I assure the House that the Government are committed to working with our EU partners to agree the most effective rules in this area which reflect our close existing relationship on this important issue. This approach will provide confidence and certainty to families and individuals, ensuring they can continue to enforce cross-border maintenance orders efficiently and effectively in the future. As both noble Baronesses, Lady Burt and Lady Sherlock, rightly said, these orders are hugely important to the families involved.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Crawley (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Kennedy is simply asking that the Minister publish within six months of Royal Assent a report outlining how the rights currently enshrined in EU family law will continue to exist after exit day. That is a very modest ask.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws for a characteristically impressive summary of the challenges facing us in relation to family law post Brexit. I should also like to place on record my appreciation of the work done by the EU Justice Sub-Committee, which she chaired so ably, and the very helpful report it produced last year entitled Brexit: Justice for Families, Individuals and Businesses?. These issues are of huge importance to a significant minority of our citizens, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, for underscoring just how much personal pain can be at stake in individual cases and how important it is that we get this sorted as soon as possible.

In Committee, we had a wide-ranging discussion on a number of amendments related to the post-Brexit family law landscape, so I will not go over that ground again. I am grateful to the Minister for subsequently meeting a number of us who spoke in Committee, along with some family lawyers. I hope very much that that dialogue can continue as we discuss these matters further.

In replying to me in Committee on 5 March, the Minister confirmed that the Government wanted to,

“agree a clear set of coherent common rules about: which country’s courts will hear a case in the event of a dispute—that is choice of jurisdiction; which country’s law will apply—that is choice of law; and a mutual recognition and enforcement of judgments across borders”.

That is what is at stake. The Minister continued:

“We believe that the optimum outcome for both sides will be a new agreement negotiated between the UK and EU as part of a future partnership which reflects our close existing relationship”.—[Official Report, 5/3/18; col. 854.]


That is what we all want. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, is that almost nobody disputes that what we have at the moment is the Rolls-Royce of family law provision. But time is very tight indeed. I understand that Ministers would like to negotiate a deal for the implementation period but that does not leave much time, even if it is forthcoming, to get a deal in place by the time we leave the European Union. If we crash out without a deal, things get very serious indeed. My noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws is asking for reassurance that the Government are determined to do this: to get a full, properly reciprocal deal in place; to make a priority of it; and to find a way for Parliament to be kept informed about how those negotiations are going.

I understand that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern has two different objections. I think he suspects that we are trying to press the Government to do something that they cannot do, which is to deliver reciprocity on their own. We would contend that we know that and that is the problem. One of the difficulties about this very situation is that the way the Bill has been framed means that, in the case of family law, because it is English and Welsh family law or Scottish family law that we retain, simply bringing that in does not mean that things stay the same. It means that things change in precisely the way my noble friend Lady Kennedy explained. With that family of a British man and an Italian woman, if the Italian woman were to take the couple’s son away to Rome and he pursued a British court for an order to have the child returned, whereas at the moment the court in Rome would have to recognise that, in future it would not. Under this arrangement, however, this country would have to recognise an Italian order for a child to be returned if the situation were reversed. That is the reciprocity that we cannot get around.

I fully accept that the Minister and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, may not like the wording of this amendment about the report. I honestly do not mind very much. All I would like to see is some means by which the House can be reassured that the Government are making progress, that they will keep us informed and that we will find out in good time how the problems for families described very movingly by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, will be solved. Will the Minister please give my noble friend and the House the reassurance that we seek this evening?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, for raising this important issue. We discussed it at some length in Committee and I will not repeat the points I made at that stage. But, as the Government outlined in their position paper published in August last year, we are committed to continuing civil judicial co-operation with the EU once we leave. That of course includes the area of family law as covered by Brussels II and Brussels IIa, as it is clearly in the interests of all individuals and families both in the UK and throughout the rest of the EU that there should be an effective area of civil judicial co-operation for these purposes. Of course, that will be the subject of negotiation.

Amendment 14, while clearly well intentioned, is potentially burdensome and I venture to suggest is not necessary. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern pointed to what is potentially a deficiency in the drafting of subsection (1) of the proposed new clause, but I do not take issue with that. I understand the point that is being made about the underlying principles of reciprocity and its importance in this context.

To suggest a six-month period for a report is of course an arbitrary deadline, which makes no reference to the position of the negotiations between the EU and the UK at that stage, or to any other steps that have been taken by the Government in regard to these issues. The Government are concerned not only with the final agreement reached in negotiations but in addressing what will be done with regard to retained EU law, including retained family law. Ultimately, any agreement that takes place between the United Kingdom and the EU to reflect not only our domestic position but the need for reciprocal enforcement will be the subject of the upcoming withdrawal agreement and will be legislated for in what is proposed to be the Withdrawal Agreement and Implementation Period Bill—so it is not something that will be the subject of the present Bill.

But I stress that the Government share the view expressed by the noble Baroness and others in the House on the importance of maintaining an effective system for resolution of cross-border family law disputes once we leave the EU. It will be an important part of the partnership that we seek to maintain with the other EU 27 countries. The Government certainly believe that intergovernmental co-operation and mutual recognition is of benefit to all parties. This is not an instance in which the EU has one particular interest and we have another. We all understand that the individuals and families concerned are affected right across the EU. We have made it clear that civil judicial co-operation in respect of family matters will be part of our future relationship with the EU.