Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Sharp of Guildford and Baroness Howarth of Breckland

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)]

My Lords, I return to the introduction that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, gave to Amendment 25E and the issue of accountability. Government Amendment 33C is good so far as it goes, but it puts the onus on parents and young people using the service to police the sufficiency of the local offer. Perhaps my noble friend the Minister could correct me if I were wrong, but so far as I know there is no obligation on local authorities to publish the findings of their own reviews, which, as was emphasised by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, they are obliged to make under Clause 27. Therefore, there is not the obligation to proactively improve their services that might arise from looking at whether their own reviews were sufficient, and acting on that. That picks up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, that there are ways and means whereby innovation comes organically and internally. Equally, she made the point that for most parents there is not the opportunity to move authorities: whether they like it or no, this is the authority that they have to work with.

Again, I pick up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, that, when we are talking about special educational needs, we do not mean only the few who have statements and will have the EHC plans now—about 3% of pupils. Something like 15% of pupils are regarded as having special educational needs and are treated under school action and school action plus.

It is now the schools’ responsibility to meet the needs of these pupils. We shall be talking later about the training that is necessary for SENCOs, and so forth. Most schools rely very much indeed on local educational specialists being available. One of the problems with the situation at the moment is that if there is no follow-up on whether or not there is a sufficiency of provision, there is a great danger that local authorities, whose finances, as we know, are being squeezed at present, will not find it necessary to provide outside the needs of those who actually have EHC plans, and that specialists in language, communication and behaviour will not be available to schools for them to be able to recruit to help them with the problems that they meet.

So I am somewhat concerned. As I say, the government amendment is good so far as it goes, but it is unfortunate that it does not follow through to requiring action on the reviews that the local authorities themselves have to make of their own provision.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, in what she was saying. I was rather taken by the government amendment because of its involvement of parents, children and young people themselves, but I could not see the follow-through. What we are looking for is an interrelationship between the legislation, the code and how it is applied and then how that is reported back, so that you have a virtuous circle and you can measure against what you are attempting to do.

In order to do that, you have to have absolute transparency. That is why I am also concerned about the phrase,

“it expects to be available”.

Unless families know with absolute clarity what is available and have some idea of what the local authority might be planning to make available—that might be what the “expects” is trying to achieve—how can they be engaged in a debate with the local authority in some sort of forum to move things forward in an innovative way? Being involved in two charities that work nationally, I know how very different the provision is across the country, but I still have grave anxieties about setting minimum standards, having also worked in a local authority that was strapped for cash in the 1970s, where we looked for any area of legislation where we could move back and save money. At this time, as I have said several times in this debate, we have to be absolutely open with families about what is and is not available. It is only if they are absolutely clear about that within the constraints of the finances that are available that they will be able to campaign, if you like, for an alternative that would better meet their needs. I encourage the Minister to look again at the phrase, “expects to be available”.

I find it far more difficult to know how I would vote on any of the other amendments, recognising the sheer complexity of the discussion that we have been having. I happen to have more faith in local authorities, and believe that if they have the opportunity and the resource they will do their best for the people that they want to serve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, my name is attached to many of these amendments and I am delighted to support them all. I also pay tribute to the Minister for having listened to the arguments that we put forward in Committee.

First, it was suggested in Committee that some young people over 18 might not need the help and support they had been getting. That would provide local authorities with an excuse for dropping such support after 18 by using those words “to have regard to age”. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it was said that the wording was too flexible. We all know that circumstances can vary enormously and that some young people with SEN are ready by the age of 18 to stand on their own and that—partly thanks to the help and support they have received—they are well able to cope without further support. However, others mature later and need to be given extra help and support. Indeed, they often need to take longer, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, indicated, over the process of learning and acquiring skills and qualifications. The Minister agreed with those arguments and stated very clearly in his response that the provision of continuing support was not a matter of age but of whether the young person concerned was ready to move into adult life. He was not prepared to move initially in Committee but he said that he was very willing to meet us. The amendments that he has introduced today very largely meet the points that we made then and show that he has very much heeded those arguments. The new wording introduced today meets our requirements.

The first of the two key amendments is Amendment 34D to Clause 36. The wording,

“have regard to his or her age”,

will be changed to,

“consider whether he or she requires additional time, in comparison to the majority of others of the same age who do not have special educational needs, to complete his or her education or training”.

In Amendment 39B to Clause 44, “his or her age” will be omitted and the words,

“whether the educational or training outcomes specified in the plan have been achieved”,

will be inserted. As the revised wording implies, the clear intention is that local authorities should be flexible in their approach, and should above all consider whether the young person has reached a point where they can do without the extra help and support that an EHC plan would give them. It is clear from the various case studies provided to us by those who are anxious to see the wording changed, that many young people need and will benefit from this flexible approach. I again thank the Minister and the Bill team for their readiness to listen to our arguments and to make these changes.

However, there is some unhappiness among those providing education and training to over-18s with special educational needs about the current wording of the draft code of practice. In particular, they think that there is a degree of inconsistency in it. At some points the draft code rightly emphasises—as the wording of the amended Bill does—the needs of the individual, whether the outcomes specified in the EHC plan have been achieved and whether the young person is ready to enter and cope with adulthood. At other times the code seems to point to the cliff edge—that once a young person reaches the age of 18, it is no longer necessary to maintain the plan. Could the Minister and his officials, having now amended the Bill, make sure that the code of practice fully reflects the amendments that we have made?

In general, I reiterate how very grateful those for whom I have been speaking in relation to these issues and I are to the Minister and his officials for listening to us, and for amending the Bill.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I add my thanks and make two brief points. First, this will convey a message to the young people themselves. It is not often that legislation matters to the recipients so directly in sending a message. Transition is a very difficult time for people with special educational needs and severe disabilities. Added to all the difficulties that they have of movement of placement and, often, of changes to the personnel involved in their care, has been the suggestion that their age mattered. To them, it does not matter to the transition that they will make to the adult world, because they are not like everyone else who is 18; they are all difficult, but certainly not like most 18 year-olds. This will mean that, in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, the needs of the individual will be met. That is a really important message.

I am concerned, as is the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, about the link to health and social care, because it simply cannot be avoided. I am sure that there will be issues around the code of practice. If you are admitted to a residential college because you have severe learning difficulties and physical disabilities, combined with the residential placement will be a series of health provisions. That will all be part of the package, so you have to have regard to all that as well. The Minister may say that that will come anyway because commissioning will be expected for that—but this is something that still worries a number of providers and families as well as individual youngsters, who need very specialist healthcare in their placements and are concerned that that might not continue beyond their 18th birthday, even if their education does.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, my name is also attached to the amendment. I endorse what has already been said by the noble Lords, Lord Rix and Lord Low, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins.

As currently drafted in the Bill, special educational provision has to be secured by local authorities. In Committee in the House of Commons, the Government tabled an amendment that places health commissioners under a duty to arrange any health provision set out in the plan. It leaves social care as the only element of an EHC plan that is not enforceable. However, if you create an education, health and care plan, it does not make sense if there is no specific duty to provide the social care services for young people set out in the plan. As the noble Lords, Lord Rix and Lord Low, indicated, there is already provision in Section 2 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 for a specific duty to provide social care services for disabled children.

That picks up on a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, when we were debating the previous amendment, about her worry that there was no enforcement mechanism to make sure that the social care provisions, which need to be integrated with the education and health provisions, are there. That point has been made time and time again by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth. It is not logical that we have enforcement mechanisms for education and health but none for social care.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I want briefly to say what I have said several times. If you have a package for education and health, you cannot fail to include the social care element. What I am hoping is that the Minister will give the same answer that he has just given on my previous point—that such provision is contained in the Care Bill. Having looked at the progress made in the way that these services are delivered, that Bill will ensure that the social care element can be provided along with the health element. That is really important because the three are inseparable in the provision of services, particularly for very severely disabled young people. I therefore hope that the answer will be that such provision is already there in another piece of legislation.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Sharp of Guildford and Baroness Howarth of Breckland

Monday 4th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I understand exactly what the Minister means about Section 17, but I cannot understand how that relates to this piece of the Bill. When we were discussing education with the previous Government, I remember being very forceful in saying to them, “You’re saying, ‘education, education, education’, but without ‘welfare, welfare, welfare’, children will not learn”. Unless we attend to the social care needs of children, particularly those children with disabilities, we know that they will not have the facility to learn. We know that unless there is help from specialists or social workers, if you have a child with serious behavioural problems at home, they will never get into ordinary school or even be able to survive properly in remedial school, and will end up in specialist residential care. That whole range of services will be needed as part of the social care package for those children.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, said, we are encouraging the Government to look at the whole, to get the thing together, to look at welfare alongside education and to look at how the two things interrelate. Those children will all have healthcare needs as well; very few children with those sorts of disabilities will not have healthcare needs. I thought that the Government wanted to pool all those services together in the interests of those young people.

Under Section 17, one would certainly not want children needing protection or suffering from neglect falling into a different priority; the local authority must look at them across the piece. I think that the word “must” helps them to do that, but having something in the Bill for those young people at least encourages local authorities to look at the whole.

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 164 and I endorse what has been said on this issue by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollins, Lady Hughes and Lady Howarth. The aim of the Bill is to create not just a special educational needs statement but something that embraces health and social care as well. It is absolutely right that we should put social care on a par with health. Clause 42(3) states:

“If a plan specifies health care provision, the responsible commissioning body must arrange the specified health care provision for the child or young person”.

The other place insisted that this subsection should be included, so it seems right that social care should be put on a par with healthcare and education in the Bill.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Sharp of Guildford and Baroness Howarth of Breckland

Monday 21st October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)]

My Lords, in a personal capacity I very much support this amendment. I have been an officer to the Parents and Families Group for a long time. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is chairman of the group. I fully agree with the remarks made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, on the importance of family relationships on how children emerge. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, it seems absurd that the only law we have in this country relates to property and not to responsibilities. In all conscience, we are keeping responsibilities on local authorities, on schools and on all kinds of people in this Bill. However, to some extent, those who have prime responsibility for bringing up children should be made to recognise that they have such responsibilities. As the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, said, the Scots have this law. It is a good law and there is a lot to be said for copying their example.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

I may be a lone voice here but, much as I agree—who cannot agree?—with the essence of what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has said, I do not view legislation as the answer. I am sure that the Minister will say that we have a plethora of legislation. I have worked in this field and I could list it but I will not do so because it would take all the time in the world. The important message that we should take from the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is how vital it is that we should do what the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has been saying for so long. We still are not doing well in terms of PSHE and helping young people and children to understand as early as possible what it is to be a parent, to be part of a community and all that you have to do as a citizen. Teens and Toddlers is still going and the programmes through which young people learn at first hand about bringing up children are very important.

However, I believe we live with a myth that modern young men are all the same, which we need to face if we are to deal with some of these issues. The young men I deal with, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, deals with, who end up in prison or in serious difficulties certainly are not among those who see themselves as hands-on in childcare. They see themselves as at the football match, the pub or an alternative. Until we are able to get programmes that work directly with such young men, we will not make a difference to them while they are growing up. We should forget the myth that all young men are the same, particularly in understanding the wide range of cultures. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, mentioned young men from certain cultures. There are difficulties in many different groups and we have to be sensitive to all that.

I say to my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss that I do not think that there are many good reasons for men walking out on their families. They do it because they have not been helped to face up to those issues. However, the courts are getting tougher in ensuring that they face up to their responsibilities, which I am pleased about. I know that CAFCASS has been working for a considerable time on trying to make parents face up to what they will do to their children if they leave them.

Although my heart is with what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has said, we need to get on with the practical application and the proper support for good social work intervention that will make a difference, rather than have yet more legislation on the statute book.