South London Healthcare NHS Trust

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement made in the other place by the Secretary of State for Health.

Let us be clear about what the Secretary of State has announced today. He has at last accepted recommendations that were agreed by the previous Government but then delayed by his predecessor’s moratorium, thereby deepening the financial problems of the South London Healthcare NHS Trust. I am, of course, relieved that he has rejected an outrageous proposal that Lewisham Hospital should lose its A&E—a proposal that should never have been made in the first place, but which cost over £5 million of precious NHS cash on accountants in the process. That is enough to give some of the 5,000 nurses they have sacked their jobs back.

However, I deeply regret that he has accepted the principle that a successful local hospital can have its services downgraded to pay for the failures of another trust. It is simply not good enough for the Secretary of State to say that he respects and recognises the sense of unfairness that people feel because their hospital has been caught up in the financial problems of its neighbour.

The Secretary of State today crossed a line and set a dangerous precedent: that in his new market-driven NHS, finance takes precedence, and any hospital, no matter how successful, is vulnerable to changes; that success can be punished and failure rewarded; and that a community can see its A&E and maternity services downgraded without a proper consultation or clinical justification. I fear that fragile public trust in the way that the NHS manages changes to hospitals will be damaged by this announcement. It will send a chill wind through any community worried about its hospital services.

There is also now utter confusion about the Government’s policy on hospital reconfiguration. Across the country, half-baked, cost-driven proposals to close A&Es and maternity units are being foisted on local communities without evidence of how they can be done safely and without putting lives at risk. Yet, at the same time, A&Es everywhere are under severe pressure. Thousands more patients are waiting more than four hours to be seen, and there are queues of ambulances lined up outside.

In this context it is simply not tenable to downgrade any A&E department without first establishing a clear clinical case for how it can be done without compromising patient safety. However, that is being done in this case. This seems to have been a financially driven process. I would suggest that the clinical justification was patently not independent but was drawn up by the Department of Health, leaving the Secretary of State’s so-called four tests in tatters.

The fourth test is that any proposal for change must have “demonstrable support from commissioners”. I will quote a letter to the Secretary of State from the chair of Lewisham CCG, Dr Helen Tattersfield, who wrote:

“If the TSA proceeds as currently planned it is my belief that not only will this result in a reduction of quality and provision of health services for Lewisham residents with huge risks to health outcomes but also the effective end of clinical commissioning in Lewisham”.

Is it the case that these proposals, which will lead to a reduction in quality and provision in Lewisham, are opposed by the doctors whom the Secretary of State promised to put in charge, and therefore that they fail his fourth test?

Is the noble Earl confident that what has been announced is legal? We have warned the Secretary of State that he is going beyond the powers in the 2009 Act by bringing a neighbouring trust into scope. He said that he was commissioning fresh legal advice on this point. Will the department publish it today so that there can be a proper debate on the legal position?

The Government need to learn some hard lessons from this fiasco, and urgently need to restore some public trust. They need to get back to some first principles on managing change in the NHS. I ask the noble Earl to address some fundamental questions today. Will he confirm that, in future, no proposal to close or downgrade A&E or maternity services will be embarked on if it does not have a proper clinical case to support it? My party will not stand in the way of difficult decisions to close A&E services where lives can be saved. But we will not put our name to financially-driven proposals that take risks with patient safety. Will the noble Earl commit that in future, the rights of any community to a proper consultation and appeal process will not be short-circuited in this way?

Finally, will the Government today issue an apology to the people of Lewisham who have been caused unnecessary distress by this debacle? Thousands of people have put their lives on hold to fund-raise, lobby and campaign. Some 52,000 names are on a petition and 25,000 people went on the march. A community that includes some of my noble friends has rallied together to defend its local hospital and fought valiantly for everyone worried about this Government’s cavalier approach to our country’s most valued institution. It is a community that has stood up to an out-of-touch Government who think they can treat some of the more deprived parts of our country with disdain. The community has achieved something today, but it will continue to fight and it will have our support.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it is not just a question of the road to Damascus. When the Information Commissioner ruled about the Heathrow third runway we then made the report available. There is also one more difference I would point out to the noble Lord. At that time there was no Bill going before Parliament to which the risk register was pertinent. They are the two key differences that I wish to bring to the House’s attention.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

The noble Baroness makes a valid point but I am giving many examples of where certain individuals, such as some of her Cabinet colleagues, were not too keen about the Information Commissioner’s instructions to this House and the other House. She will know that. In fact, some of her fellow Cabinet colleagues came to me and said, “Good luck, we want you to appeal.”. I do not know whether it was discussed in Cabinet but I know that the sparks started flying. What do they say about failure? Failure is an orphan.

I will not go down that road too far except to say that it certainly has been a road to Damascus. There have been a lot of decisions by the Information Commissioner that the noble Baroness and her Cabinet colleagues did not want. I am prepared to put them down item by item and to tell her about the Cabinet Ministers, some at very high level, who were prepared to go against an Information Commissioner’s decision.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

To ask Her Majesty's Government, in light of the decision of the information tribunal last week, whether they will publish the risk register associated with the Health and Social Care Bill before that Bill completes its Report stage in this House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, the tribunal has agreed that the department should not publish its strategic risk register but has upheld the Information Commissioner’s initial decision notice on the transition risk register. However, we await the full judgment, which will contain the detailed reasoning for the decision. This makes it extremely difficult to make a decision on whether the Government wish to appeal this decision. I hope very much that the tribunal will give its full judgment as soon as possible.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the primary purpose of this House is to scrutinise and improve legislation. I know that the Minister would agree with me on that. In the next 10 days, Parliament has to make critical decisions about the future of the National Health Service. Without the information in the risk register or the transitional risk register, Parliament will be less well informed than it otherwise would be. The information tribunal last week instructed the Government to release the transitional risk register immediately, as I understand it, because the Bill is still under consideration. Why are the Government therefore preventing Parliament from having the best possible information on the NHS so that it can make the best possible decisions about the NHS?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, many of the risks associated with the Government’s reform programme, as the noble Baroness knows, have already been extensively aired—not least in the impact assessment, in my statement of 28 November last and, indeed, in the whole passage of this Bill—but I fully recognise the concern that we should respond swiftly to the tribunal’s decision. We are making every effort to update noble Lords on our intention as soon as we possibly can. However, as I have always said, this is not a decision for the department alone and any way forward has to be agreed and signed off across Government. I cannot make a decision without agreeing it with my fellow Ministers in other departments and I am sure noble Lords will appreciate that we have only just received the tribunal’s decision.

NHS: Management Consultants

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 13th February 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what the role of management consultants is in developing health reforms, including the Health and Social Care Bill, and whether their involvement in the design and implementation of reforms raises any conflicts of interest.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, the Health and Social Care Bill and all related programmes require input from a wide range of civil servants, lawyers and other experts. Management consultants have been assisting Monitor, the developing Commissioning Board and others on specific issues. Consultancy spend has reduced very substantially since before the election. We have been transparent around spend of over £25,000 and on hospitality received by Ministers and civil servants. We have also answered all Parliamentary Questions and FOI requests on these issues, showing our commitment to openness.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for that Answer. Following recent press reports, I want to ask him about a specific management consultant, McKinsey. What payments has it received since May 2010 from the Department of Health and all other taxpayer-funded health bodies? If he is not able to tell the House that now, will he undertake to place this information in the Library of the House? Given that McKinsey seems to be setting the rules of the game in relation to the Government’s health Bill and then benefiting from the outcome, can the Minister declare unequivocally that there is no conflict of interest between McKinsey’s role in advising the Government on their health reforms and its commercial relationships with other clients?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I received notice of this Question just over an hour ago so I do not have precise figures about McKinsey. What I can say is that whereas the previous Administration in 2008-09 spent £100 million in the Department of Health on consultancy, my department has spent under £10 million on consultancy this year—very considerably less.

I read the article in the press this weekend which probably prompted the noble Baroness’s Question. I think we need to be careful before casting doubt on the integrity of public servants—and, indeed, of McKinsey. The article referred to Monitor. Those at Monitor are bound by very strict rules and procedures to ensure transparency and openness in all their dealings and to avoid any possible conflicts of interest. They follow those rules and procedures to the letter.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

5A: Clause 2, page 2, line 33, at end insert, “and report annually in Parliament on the progress towards their development”

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 255A. Both amendments relate to quality standards.

The Government must ensure that the newly structured NHS delivers high-quality care to all patients across England. The much disputed reforms must not create a situation that amplifies the differences in quality of care that patients receive in different parts of the country—that is to say, an amplified postcode lottery would be intolerable. Clear national guidelines, such as the quality standards being produced by NICE, are urgently needed to define the quality of care that local authorities and clinical commissioning groups should achieve.

However, the delayed development of NICE quality standards for prostate cancer, as well as recent decisions not to recommend new treatments for men at the end stages of the disease, threaten to leave prostate cancer behind and increase the variation in the quality of care that men receive across the country. Historically, men with prostate cancer have suffered from a legacy of neglect. Although recent improvements have been made in the quality of care that men receive, this progress is at risk, and that is unacceptable. Patients should receive the same high-quality care regardless of where they live. I am, as ever, grateful to the excellent Prostate Cancer Charity for its help and support.

The Bill presents an opportunity for NICE to establish national quality standards that set out the quality of care that patients should receive across England. Having these standards in place for prostate cancer and other conditions will ensure that clinical commissioning groups and cancer networks will be able to benchmark the services that they commission and evaluate the quality of care that they provide. The standards will also help local authorities to scrutinise health services effectively and allow patients to check that they are receiving higher quality care. The quality standard for prostate cancer was prioritised for development in 2011 in the Government’s Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer. However, this has been delayed by NICE and the quality standard for prostate cancer will now not be published until the end of 2013 at the earliest. I am extremely concerned that development of quality standards is already being delayed for priority areas, and this could be an indication of future delay and barriers to driving up the quality of care within the new NHS.

When guidelines on prostate cancer care have been delayed in the past, it has led to men with prostate cancer reporting a significantly worse experience of care than men with other common cancers. We cannot afford to repeat those mistakes, particularly in the light of the new localised approach to healthcare set out in the Bill. The Minister’s response to my amendment in Committee was disappointing, given that he said it will take five years to develop the full set of quality standards. While the six months suggested in that amendment is a tight timescale, five years is too long to wait for these crucial benchmarks of quality care.

This amendment to Clause 2—which outlines the Secretary of State’s duty to improve the quality of services—would require him to report annually on the progress towards the development of quality standards. This would help. It is not an onerous requirement and would help ensure that the standards are prioritised and that Parliament could scrutinise their progress. Quality standards are meant to be patient-facing documents and an amendment to Clause 233 that would require the NHS Commissioning Board and/or the Department of Health to maintain a publicly available information source of each quality standard would also help. This would allow patients and professionals to see real-time information and scrutinise the progress of these important standards. I beg to move.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment. Yesterday, I went to a meeting on prostate cancer, a disease that 10,000 people a year die from unnecessarily because of late diagnosis. I should like to tell noble Lords a small story about a friend of mine. He went three times to his local surgery in north Yorkshire and was sent away. His son was worried because there were symptoms, so he took him down here to London. He was diagnosed with prostate cancer straight away in a private clinic, but it had gone through to his bones because of late diagnosis. The treatment is much more expensive, so if only there was a standard throughout the country. Therefore, this is a very important amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

There is no hierarchy but the Secretary of State will be bound to report to Parliament and, in doing so, he must show that he has exercised his functions in a way that fulfil his statutory duties under the Bill. Parliament will no doubt hold him to account for having done so. He must demonstrate across the piece that he has had regard to those duties.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his reply, and for the support for my amendments around the Chamber. I have a couple of comments. First, in terms of quality standards, like the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I wonder about a GP’s ability to fulfil his duties both as a clinician and a commissioner. Currently GPs often find diagnosis quite difficult and I am concerned about them having to commission as well as diagnose. If they do not fulfil their tasks as both clinicians and commissioners, the patients will suffer.

My noble friends Lord Hunt and Lord Harris asked who takes the leadership and responsibility for ensuring that quality standards are adhered to when they are brought forward by NICE. The Minister said that localism is one of the answers. I find that a frightening prospect rather than a reassuring one. I think it is a recipe for chaos rather than quality, but perhaps that is a personal view.

I pay huge tribute to NICE, which I think does excellent work, but I recognise that it is very stretched. It has immense burdens and responsibilities. I hope that this very short but excellent debate will be a catalyst for swifter action in terms of quality standards, but I recognise that there is always a balance to be struck between quality and speed. However, in five years, an awful lot of people can die while waiting for quality standards. Having said that, I am grateful to the Minister for his response, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 5A withdrawn.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I chip in briefly in support of the amendment. I hasten to assure my noble friends on the Front Bench that this is a probing amendment and that I have no intention of pushing my luck. I have been so open and transparent as to share with the Minister every word of the briefing that I received and that led to the amendment. He knows what it is about. Therefore, I am looking for a measured, constructive and well informed response. I have no interests to declare except the public interest. The healthcare industry—the interests of which underlie the amendment—is important. It contains a lot of small and medium-sized enterprises of a potentially and actually very successful kind. We ought to encourage them, and I hope that the Minister will do his best.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 110ZA. In tabling the amendment and Amendment 343A, I was mindful of information from the Prostate Cancer Charity, which I strongly support, and from members of the Epilepsy Society. Of course I am aware that many other people with different chronic diseases, and those who care for them, are concerned about these issues.

As noble Lords are aware, prostate cancer is the most common cancer in men in the UK. In England, 30,000 men are diagnosed with it every year, and there are 215,000 men living with and beyond the disease. Ten thousand men die from prostate cancer every year. Currently, clinical nurse specialists for men with prostate cancer have to care for a worryingly high number of new patients compared to nurses for people with other common cancers. I am therefore worried that the financial pressures on the NHS and the cost of reform will threaten those already overstretched specialist nurses, who are so vital in driving up the quality of care for people with cancer.

Access to a clinical nurse specialist improves the experience of people with cancer at every stage of their journey and ensures that they have access to the vital support and information they need. This has been evidenced by the results of the 2010 National Cancer Patient Experience Survey. If patients are to have more control over decisions related to their care and report a good experience of care, they need the clinical and emotional support, information and expertise that a clinical nurse specialist can provide.

As the noble Earl will be aware from his association with the epilepsy organisations, NICE guidelines state that epilepsy specialist nurses should be an integral part of the medical team providing care to people with epilepsy. Even with investment made under my Government, 60 per cent of acute trusts and 64 per cent of primary care trusts did not have an epilepsy specialist nurse in 2009. SIGN guideline 70 states that,

“all epilepsy care teams should include an epilepsy specialist nurse”.

There are around 150 epilepsy specialist nurse posts, with a further 250 to 300 nurses who have undertaken training but are not in a role due to the shortage of posts.

As all noble Lords will be aware, specialist nurses save the NHS money by releasing consultants’ time, reducing A&E admissions, enhancing patients’ adherence to treatment and reducing the use of hospital beds. Therefore, I am proposing two amendments that would place duties on the NHS Commissioning Board to have regard to the continued access of patients to clinical specialist nurses. The first would support the board’s existing duty as to the improvement in quality of services and the second would create a new standalone duty. I trust the Minister will be able to accept my amendments.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 109A. There is no doubt at all that for many years now the work of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, NICE, has made a major contribution to the National Health Service. There is a widespread feeling in the public at large that NICE deals with nothing other than whether or not to recommend the approval of certain drugs for the treatment of disease within the NHS. However, NICE’s commitment spreads much more widely than that. It examines procedures; it examines complicated interventions of all kinds; it examines the introduction of new and innovative techniques, new instruments and other procedures in the NHS. Its remit is exceptionally wide.

I know full well that the noble Lord, Lord Newton, says he is not going to pursue this amendment to a vote, but it is important that we have some assurances from the Minister. As my noble friend Lord Butler says, it is clear that, although NICE guidance in general terms is something with which health authorities and health bodies of all kinds will be expected to comply, there are clearly circumstances, particularly at a local level, where, for the reasons he gave, such compliance would be inappropriate. The amendment takes full note of that as being an important issue.

However, we must be sure, in implementing the recommendations of NICE, that we do not overlook the crucial importance of ensuring that the national Commissioning Board will have a duty to promote innovation in its annual report. It is also crucially important, when we come to look at innovation tariffs much later, in Amendment 288H, to see that the tariffs system will not act as a counterincentive to the adoption of innovation and of new technologies. These are issues upon which it is important to seek assurances from the Minister.

Perhaps I may also add to what the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said. The work of specialist nurses is extraordinarily important to the NHS, and not least in my own field of neurology, where nurses who are specialised in multiple sclerosis, Parkinsonism, epilepsy and many other conditions have made an outstanding contribution to the clinical care of patients. In many instances, their work and advice have prevented unnecessary admissions to acute wards of patients suffering from these conditions. They are invaluable. Unfortunately, over the past five or six years, we have identified instances where cash-strapped health bodies of various kinds have diverted some of these specialist nurses into standard nursing care. I hope that the Minister can give us an assurance that the role of specialist nurses in the NHS is going to be enshrined in the Bill and that the Government will recognise that such nurses are there for a special purpose, not to provide general nursing care in hospital wards and out-patient departments.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I very much welcome that offer, which has come rather late in the day. My understanding is that discussions over the timetabling of the Bill have taken place over the past week. However, we are faced with the amendment that is on the Order Paper and must vote on it as it stands.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I beg your Lordships’ pardon but I have to say that we are and have been entirely open to this suggestion. I was not aware of it until yesterday. I give the House my pledge that the Bill will come out of Committee by mid-January, which is, I think, when the noble Earl was thinking of. We should be delighted to give our firm assurance that the Bill will come out in mid-January.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, that is an extremely welcome offer, which we accept. I am grateful to the noble Baroness.

It is right for me to conclude, with your Lordships’ agreement. I bring this extended debate to an end by returning to the point of the Bill, which is to improve the quality of care for patients. For all the generosity of the noble Baroness’s offer, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, would not help patients. It would insert additional uncertainty into the parliamentary passage of the Bill. As my noble friend Lord Fowler rightly emphasised, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rea, would leave the NHS in far greater uncertainty. It would also leave it unprotected from both the present and future challenges that it faces.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Owen]

It would have been easier if the honourable Gentleman—I mean the noble Lord; I am used to thinking of him in another place—had been able to spend the time here and heard the debate. I do not want to delay the House. I gave way to him because, as a former Leader of the Liberal Democrats, it is important that his voice should be heard but this is a question for the House as a whole and I do not wish to delay any longer. I leave this for the judgment of the House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I crave the indulgence of the House to confirm one point that was clarified by the noble Lord. I do not advocate any timetabling Motion: that would not be appropriate for the House. I give the assurance that, were the noble Lord’s amendment to be agreed, my Benches would wish the Bill to be out of Committee by mid-January. However, if the amendment is not accepted, it will be right and proper for the usual channels to discuss the appropriate number of days needed in the light of this excellent Second Reading debate. I cite the excellent speeches made by many noble Lords, including the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, who spoke before me last night and who said that enough time must be given. He is absolutely right. I have no intention of delaying the Bill. My intention is to ensure that there is proper agreement between the usual channels on the appropriate amount of time that the Bill needs in Committee.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I will make three very brief points. The provisions that the noble Lord, Lord Owen, asks us to send to a special Select Committee affect the entire Bill. The twin-track approach that he advocates carries a major risk: the potential disconnect between the special Select Committee and the Committee of the whole House. The Select Committee might recommend amendments to parts of the Bill that have already been debated by the Committee of the whole House. The result could be that, notwithstanding the offer made in good faith by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, we could see a slippage of the timetable of the Bill that would be most unwelcome.

I repeat my assurance that I am entirely open to considering the concerns that have been raised about the issue and to make any necessary amendment to put it beyond doubt that the Secretary of State will remain responsible and accountable for a comprehensive health service.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

2: After Clause 11, insert the following new Clause—
“Time limit on scheduled bodies
Any entry in Schedules 1 to 5 ceases to have effect at the end of the period of five years beginning with the day on which it came into force (without affecting any order already made by virtue of that entry).”

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 2, which will put a time limit on the bodies mentioned in Schedules 1 to 5, I will not rehearse the well honed arguments which have been put forward many times about the importance of sunsetting. Suffice it to say that the sunsetting of the schedules is one of the fundamental and welcome changes which have been made to this Bill. I am very grateful to the Minister for putting his name to this amendment, which appears for a second time because, I have to confess, I failed to move it on Report. I beg to move.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I am delighted to have added my name to Amendment 2, which is also tabled in the names of the noble Baroness, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. As the noble Baroness has said, perhaps she failed to move the amendment on Report, but then so did I. I think we were all caught up in the heat of the moment after a Division, so I am pleased that we have an opportunity to bring it back again. It is the outcome of a constructive engagement across the House and I thank noble Lords for their input into the process and for retabling the amendment to ensure that it becomes part of the Bill.

Grouped with Amendment 2 are three government amendments to clauses relating Welsh Ministers. They are essentially minor and technical in nature and have been requested by the Welsh Assembly Government. Amendment 3 clarifies that Clause 13(6) refers to internal drainage boards which have responsibility for geographic areas partially but not wholly within Wales. National boundaries do not necessarily follow catchment areas. Amendment 4 is a drafting amendment to ensure that the procedure for transfer schemes made by Welsh Ministers under Clause 23 applies to transfer schemes set up in connection with orders made under Clause 13. Amendment 10 alters the Long Title to reflect the fact that the Bill as amended on Report grants powers to Welsh Ministers in Clause 13 in relation to a number of other bodies and offices in addition to those powers that already exist in relation to environmental bodies specified in, and by virtue of, Clause 12. These amendments rightly clarify the Government’s intentions for the use of powers in the Bill and I trust that they will be welcomed by the House.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goodhart]

My Lords, I have again tabled an amendment that I tabled in Committee, and which is now Amendment 72A. As my noble friend Lord Taylor says, the amendment involves a sunset clause. We now have government Amendment 72, which is a sort of sunset clause—it gets the clause going halfway down, towards the shadow, but not quite going the whole way. In view, however, of Amendment 72 and its wide range of supporters, I will support on this occasion Amendment 72 rather than my own amendment. That does not mean that I think that Amendment 72 is better; it is certainly a step forward but I am not convinced that it is in fact better than a simple sunset clause would have been. The effect of Amendment 72 is that after five years the Act will in reality be dead, but somehow it will be brought back to life by new primary legislation. That seems rather a clumsy arrangement, but if others wish to try it, so be it, and, as I said, I will support it.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. We certainly support him in his Amendments 60 and 69C and we are especially grateful for the work that the Government have done on omnibus orders. We think that they have arrived at a sensible and proper solution, as the Minister said.

As for the sunset provision, when we first broached this subject in Committee, the Bill was a very bad one. That is why we wanted to sunset the whole Bill. Since then we have genuinely engaged with the Minister and reached a very good compromise. Since Committee the Bill—its content and its architecture—has been radically transformed. Although my noble friend Lord Hunt will seek further change to the Bill's architecture at our next sitting on Report, we are content that the sunsetting of the schedules is adequate. We believe it right and proper that at the beginning of every Parliament there is the potential to have what would in essence be a new Public Bodies Bill. However, we also believe that the architecture is such that it could be maintained while looking again at the schedules. By sunsetting the schedules, the bodies that are currently in the schedule will have the comfort of knowing that if nothing has happened to them within the four or five-year period, they will be free, as it were; and the bodies that are not included will know that they can continue to work efficiently and effectively without a medium-term sword of Damocles hanging over them. We are therefore very grateful to the Minister for the changes to which he has agreed, and we look forward to the adoption of the amendments in question.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords, I had tabled two amendments in this group, Amendment 131, to leave out the Advisory Council on Public Records, and Amendment 161, to leave out the Public Records Office. While I, like everyone else, welcome immensely the fact that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 have gone, I am dying to know what would have happened to these two bodies had the schedule remained.

What would have happened, for example, to the Advisory Council on Public Records? I had the pleasure of serving on this council for a number of years; I thought we were rather a useful body. Most Lord Chancellors seemed to think we were helpful, giving independent advice on whether sensitive records should be released or not. We were a kind of independent buffer, and assisted the Lord Chancellor in that respect. I hope this does not sound boastful but we were quite a well qualified group on the council, and very cheap. It was chaired by the Master of the Rolls, and the last time I saw it was costing about £2,500 a year in expenses to run.

I would be fascinated to know what the intention of including the Advisory Council on Public Records in Schedule 7 was. What was the alternative? I would love to know whether former Lord Chancellors thought a change was necessary.

On a much larger count, what were the Government going to do about the Public Records Office, which was included in this Bill? At various times in my life I have almost become a resident of the Public Records Office and an ex officio member. I have admired and benefited enormously from the fantastic research facilities at Kew and the quality and the dedication of the staff there.

I am happy to tell you that, thankfully, these bodies are now outside the scope of the Bill, but can the Minister tell us what they would have done with them had they left Schedule 7 in? I would very much welcome my curiosity being satisfied in this respect.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I, too, am delighted that the Minister has added his name to the Clause 11 and Schedule 7 stand part debate, and pay tribute to him for listening so attentively to everyone around the Chamber.

I feel sure that I know exactly how it will have happened. He will have been in the Cabinet Office, or wherever, and the Secretary of State will be saying, “Don’t be silly. Of course you can get it through the Lords”. He will be saying, “No, I’m listening. I can't. It’s too difficult”. Eventually, the noble Lord’s arguments will have prevailed, and I am delighted about that.

In moving that the Bill be read a second time, the noble Lord said:

“The fact that a body is named in Schedule 7 to the Bill should not be misconstrued as constituting an intent to abolish or otherwise reform”.—[Official Report, 9/11/10; col. 67.]

He said that in good faith, but it is understandable that any body mentioned in Schedule 7 was immediately worried. Its current operations and future prospects were thrown into doubt and confusion. I recognise that that cannot have been the Government’s intent—that simply does not make economic sense or for good governance—but it was the reality. Each organisation believed itself to be just two orders away from modification, merger or, even worse, abolition. The chilling factor already mentioned was mighty.

If the Minister had not indicated that the Government were minded to delete Clause 11 and Schedule 7, I can assure him that Committee stage would have lasted for even longer, because it would have been our duty to table an amendment on each of the bodies to tease out from the Government their intentions for the body in question. Thankfully, such scrutiny was not needed but, more importantly, the clause and schedule are being deleted, so the axe has been lifted and the bodies mentioned can get on with their work.

I do not want to detain noble Lords at this hour, but I must say that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 were very unwise. They are a testament to rushed drafting and a woeful lack of consultation between the Cabinet Office and other departments. The Government have seen sense; and I am glad. I have a question for the Minister. I presume that some of the bodies mentioned in the schedule might be moved at some stage in the legislative process. Can he say which or how many bodies will be moved, where they will be moved to and when that will be? I would naturally also be grateful for confirmation that the necessary consultation is taking place at this moment with any bodies likely to be moved from Schedule 7 into another schedule.

I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, when he says that there should be a Public Bodies Bill at the beginning of each Parliament but, in essence, if we are all content with the framework of this Bill and the schedules are sunsetted, that is what we will have.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very grateful for those contributions. If there were any doubt why we were wise not to keep Schedule 7 in the Bill, the answer lies in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. As like as not, nothing would have happened to those bodies. They would have been subject to a review in another three years under a periodic review of public bodies, which is an ongoing commitment of the Government. As the noble Baroness pointed out, it was very difficult for any representative of the Government to convince public bodies that that was the case. We may now have a much more satisfactory solution—from both a parliamentary and a practical point of view—to how the review of public bodies can be an ongoing process.

I thank my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. He and I have known each other longer, I guess, than any other people in this House. We were youngsters together. Indeed, my noble friend was the William Hague of his day at Conservative Party conferences, but he will probably not thank me very much for revealing that to the House. I thank him for his comments. We have taken the committee’s reports seriously and sought to address them, because I have taken the view that the guidance of this House has been positive rather than destructive.

I turn specifically to a comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that there was a lack of discussion between the departments. I do not think there has been any Bill in which there has been so much discussion across government departments. It is one of the complexities of this Bill that it involves every department, so all departments have been involved in the preparation and structure of the Bill.

As for the detailed question which the noble Baroness asked me about any movement of bodies into schedules during various stages of the Bill, I am not in a position to give an answer on that at this stage, but I will keep the House informed. We are determined that nothing should be introduced to the Bill that cannot be justified by a strong sense of purpose and suitability, and it is not a large number of bodies involved. Consultations are going on, but there will be a number of bodies where proposals exist to come into the Bill that will not be introduced into the Bill because we do not consider that they are in a suitable state of preparation. We feel that we have to justify the admission of any body that we bring into the Bill at this stage. I think that is a reasonable position, and I hope all Members of the Committee will agree with that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and I have talked about the problem that she has. When she talked about the Government being deaf, I hope she was not referring to me. I hope she would acknowledge that I responded immediately to the point she made; I got a response and I showed it to her this evening before we came in here in the hope that we would not have to debate it. That is because it is not really a matter for this Bill; it is a matter of the relationship between public bodies—and particularly those in the legal sector—and Government. I will, of course, write to her on the situation as it is, and I note her interest in the matter. I hope that we can keep in touch.

I should just say a few words on these parts of the Bill. As set out in the House on 28 February, these parts of the Bill were designed to facilitate the Government’s stated commitment to the regular review of all public bodies by creating a means by which changes to such bodies could be made following future reviews without recourse to further primary legislation. It was not, as some have suggested, intended to threaten the status of public bodies that the Government had decided needed to be retained. In particular, the Government recognise that some public functions need to be carried out independently of Ministers. Schedule 7 was never intended to hinder or threaten their independence. However, following representations from noble Lords across the House, including Members of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, the Government have acknowledged the significant concern within the House that these parts of the Bill represented a significant delegation of powers to Ministers and had the potential to constitute a threat to the necessary independence of some public functions.

Accordingly, I have added my name to those of other noble Lords opposing the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part of the Bill. The consequences of removing these parts from the Bill will be that the powers in the Public Bodies Bill cannot apply to any body or office without the express approval of Parliament through primary legislation for that body or office to be listed in one of the Bill’s schedules. Accordingly, any changes to public bodies following the Government’s planned future reviews which necessitate legislation will require a primary legislative vehicle. I hope that this change provides a significant assurance to the Committee both as regards the status of bodies and the Government’s commitment to the appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of government policy.

As I set out on 28 February, it will also be necessary, as a result of the removal of Schedule 7, to introduce a small number of amendments to move bodies currently in that schedule to one or more of the other schedules. These changes will ensure that all the reforms announced in last year’s review can be implemented. These amendments will be made at a later stage of the Bill.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate and for their positive and helpful engagement on the question of the proper scope and mechanism of this Bill. Throughout its passage to date I hope that, in agreeing to oppose the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part, I have been able to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to engage with and respond to the concerns of noble Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, in moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment 166BZB. I certainly shall not unduly detain the Committee at this late hour, and we touched on certain aspects relating to Welsh speakers in the context of S4C earlier today—it seems very much earlier by now. Ministers will be aware that public bodies in Wales have Welsh language responsibilities under the Welsh Language Act 1993. This is now in the process of being replaced by new legislation passed by the National Assembly for Wales last year. The question that arises in the context of the Public Bodies Bill is that of ensuring continuity, clarity, consistency and the safeguarding of Welsh language rights when bodies operating in Wales may be merged with other bodies which do not necessarily currently have either a statutory or possibly a voluntary language plan.

These new clauses address two aspects of this. Amendment 166BZA provides for the continuity of language requirement when functions transfer from one body to another under this Act. Amendment 166BZB places a responsibility on relevant Ministers, before making an order under this legislation in relation to a public body that provides services to the public in Wales, to undertake an assessment of the implications of change on the use of the Welsh language in the provision of those services. Consultation for such assessment could be done either by the Minister here or by Ministers of the Welsh Government, as might be appropriate.

I would therefore ask the Minister either to accept these new clauses, to consider before the Report stage how to deal with the issue, or to give me an assurance that somehow these matters have already been looked after in a way that neither I nor the Welsh Language Board, which helped me with these amendments, are aware of so far. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, we support the amendments because they would safeguard and promote the Welsh language. They are fundamental to the protection of the Welsh language in Wales and to good governance there. We hope that the Minister will be able to take them away and consider them before Report.

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, we return to Wales. At this late hour, I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate my being brief, but this does not imply that we do not take the two amendments seriously.

The Government sympathise with the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to make certain that support for the Welsh language, which is undertaken by many bodies providing public services in Wales, is not lost when roles are transferred from one person to another. This is not our desire and we are committed to making certain that this work is not undermined. However, where we differ with the noble Lord is on whether the amendments represent the best means of achieving this aim.

I shall first consider the noble Lord’s Amendment 166BZB, on Welsh language assessments. I understand that there are 18 bodies whose roles could be transferred under the Bill which currently have Welsh language schemes and services. If the roles of those bodies are transferred elsewhere, the Government will consider the options for maintaining these services. Ministers will conduct impact assessments when proposing to make orders under the Bill. The Bill will require them to consult a wide range of interested parties.

I turn to Amendment 166BZA, on the application of Welsh language requirements. Welsh Ministers already have the power to bring bodies within the scope of the Welsh language legislation. The precise duties which are imposed are then a matter for negotiation with the Welsh Language Board. In the Government’s view, these powers provide a more appropriate way of addressing this issue than the noble Lord’s amendment. Indeed, the amendment could even reduce Welsh language provision. We consider it more appropriate to assess what requirements are needed in the context of each specific transfer, using the powers available in Welsh language legislation and in the Bill.

I thank the noble Lord for bringing up this matter. Consultation is going on. I hope, therefore, that he will not wish to press his amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, it is with some delight and some relief that I move Amendment 175C and in doing so speak to Amendments 175D, 175E and 182. The relief for all those in the Committee at this stage is because this is the last substantive group in the entire stage.

Before I finish, I offer an apology to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, in that I promised him that we would end with a Welsh amendment. I am afraid that we are not doing that—it was going to come earlier but it was not moved.

I informed the Committee last week that the Government had decided to remove the forestry clauses from the Bill, and this we have now done. This set of amendments would remove a series of references to the Forestry Commission from Clauses 23 and 24. It is a tidying up exercise. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I warmly welcome these amendments and the removal of the final references to the Forestry Commission. We have been told on numerous occasions that the campaign against the sale of our forests and woodlands was inflammatory and misguided, but the forestry clauses were, I believe, a testament to the fact that the Government wished to enable the sale of our woodlands and forests. The Minister responsible made that clear on a number of occasions. I am glad that the Bill is now being amended. I know that hundreds of people up and down the country will feel mightily relieved—the very people who welcomed the independent panel looking into the future of forestry. We look forward to their deliberations in due course.

Amendment 175C agreed.