Extension of Article 50

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

My noble friend is of course correct that it is the Government’s intention to get a deal. However, negotiations are ongoing and I am sure that he will understand, from his time in government, that we are unable to share confidential negotiating papers at the moment. He can rest assured that as soon as we get a deal, we will publish the full documentation.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister say whether the Government think that they would be abiding by the law if they were to send two letters instead of one?

[Lord Callanan]

I can see that noble Lords today have a great fondness for the work of the international post office. We will abide by the law.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 5th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Earl of Devon (CB)]

My Lords, I have never spoken on Brexit before and I hope to provide at least a fresh voice and maybe a few fresh thoughts. This debate sounds rather like almost every Brexit debate of the past three years and is a slightly despondent dance upon the head of a pin to some rather miserable mood music.

I will speak for my contemporaries: parents with young children, young workers just establishing a career, entrepreneurs establishing their businesses, and those just getting by. I increasingly hear that they just do not care and do not identify as remainers or leavers. They just want us to get on with it. Let us do that and give ourselves and our children a certain future. As the right reverend Prelate said, the question now must not be whether we leave, but how we leave. I have a suggestion. While the Bill purports to take no deal off the table, perhaps in the spirit of new compromise we could equally consider taking remain off the table. We could focus all our considerable skill, erudition and efforts on leaving, leaving well and healing all these bickerous divisions. We owe it to our children. It was my kids’ first day back at school yesterday and I spent the day in much more childish play than they did.

I was once a remainer. Indeed, as a Burgundian family that set up shop in Devon over 800 years ago, we have done rather well out of a previous European union. But now I am firmly a post-Brexiteer. We have to look to the future. We have left Europe before many times and we have rejoined Europe before. Remember Crécy, Poitiers, Agincourt, the Field of the Cloth of Gold, the Reformation and the Glorious Revolution. I hope, having had family members proudly active in all those engagements, that my presence here can remind your Lordships that a negotiated departure from the current European Union does not preclude us from an active and leading role in our continent, or indeed perhaps rejoining it at some point, whether sooner or later.

I support the Bill if it allows us to move on and finally to get on with our national life. I also support the brave efforts to prevent the current Government herding us like lemmings off the no-deal cliff, with the parade of Yellowhammer horribles that would follow us. For farmers, fishermen, families, Ireland and the whole future of our United Kingdom, I really support the Bill.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

Before the noble Earl sits down, I must say that he lives in a very different world from some of us. My children, all the friends of my children and the vast majority of students with whom I come into contact daily at Oxford University—I refer to my entry in the register—all want to stay in the European Union because they all recognise that their place is there and that that is where they will maximise their opportunities and potential. I wish to place on record that I live in a very different world from that inhabited by the noble Earl.

[Earl of Devon]

My Lords, if I may respond, I wholly agree. My experience is that the younger generation really do want to remain, but if we continue to fight we will be trashing their futures. If we continue to fight about this we will be absolutely rubbishing their options. If we can get out now, well and cleanly, they will have years ahead of them in which they can get back in. They can get back into a new, better and different European Union, but I do not think we are doing them any favours by spending three years churning through politicians and Governments, depressing our economy and trashing our farming just by arguing about this issue. I have sat quietly on this for a number of years and I firmly believe, although I am devout remainer, that we just have to get on and get it done with, rip off the plaster and start afresh. I am sorry.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

If Parliament rejects the agreement, there is nothing for us to legislate further on. It has been rejected. The Article 50 process that Parliament voted for will then kick in: we will leave on 29 March 2019. I repeat that we expect and intend this vote to occur before the European Parliament votes on the deal. If Parliament supports that Motion, we will bring forward the withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill—a piece of primary legislation to give the withdrawal agreement domestic legal effect. Of course, that will be amendable. This is in addition to the ratification process that is a requirement under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010.

Additionally, the Government will introduce further legislation where it is needed to implement the terms of the future relationship into UK law, providing yet more opportunities for further and proper parliamentary scrutiny.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

Returning to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, I thought I heard David Davis suggest in a Select Committee the other day with regard to the meaningful vote in the House of Commons that the resolution might be amendable. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments.

[Lord Callanan]

I have not seen David Davis’s comments but I am sure what he said was true and appropriate.

This is in line with our belief that primary legislation is the appropriate vehicle for major policy changes, as is evidenced by the fact that we have already introduced Bills on sanctions, customs, trade, nuclear safeguards and road haulage.

These are serious commitments. As recently as last week, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union took detailed questions on the vote on the final deal at the Exiting the European Union Select Committee. He said:

“The Government is unlikely to put a vote to the House that it does not intend to take properly seriously”.


Perhaps that answers the noble Baroness’s question. To discount these assurances is to go against the convention that assurances to Parliament can be relied upon.

Finally, in addition to the problems and complexities I have outlined, the amendment is unnecessary because it is a simple legal fact that, following the amendment made to Clause 9 in the other place, there is no mechanism by which the Government can give the full final withdrawal agreement domestic legal effect without introducing primary legislation.

To summarise, whether intended or not, the drafting of this amendment is problematic. Some of the policy choices in it need to be rethought. Ultimately, large parts of it are simply not fit for purpose. While I suspect that I may not be successful, I strongly urge noble Lords to think again about this amendment.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Dundee (Con)]

My Lords, as has been said, that our current advantages from international student mobility might now be under attack is clearly of great concern.

In 2014-15, it was estimated that international students contributed around £25.8 billion in gross output to the United Kingdom economy. There are also the considerable social and cultural benefits to which they contribute, not least the United Kingdom’s soft power overseas.

Yet recently, and unfortunately, those heartening figures and prospects have got worse, with our market share slipping against rival English-speaking countries such as Australia, New Zealand and Canada, as well as against European countries, which now offer more courses in English.

These amendments seek to prevent further decline by protecting continuing UK participation in the Erasmus and Horizon 2020 schemes. As we know, the Government have guaranteed participation for the next three years.

Nevertheless, does my noble friend the Minister agree that, as other noble Lords have urged, by far the best plan is to negotiate with the EU to stay within these very effective education initiatives, while at the same time doing all we can to support and work with our universities to increase international student mobility both in Europe and elsewhere?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I too support the two amendments in this group. I have a special interest in Oxford University, which benefits exponentially from Horizon 2020, and our students also benefit from Erasmus. As my noble friend said, Oxford, Cambridge, UCL and Imperial are the top four recipients to date. This has been invaluable in achieving their status in global league tables. However, my concern is about not just Oxford but our higher education sector as a whole. We often repeat the mantra that we are global leaders, and we are: our higher education system is the envy of the world and that is a matter for celebration. But too often we forget that some of our research and innovation success derives from the funding and, often more importantly, the collaboration that we enjoy as part of Horizon 2020, which built on its predecessor framework programmes. The partnerships that have enabled our universities to thrive are now being undermined by Brexit.

We are assured that our UK researchers will remain fully eligible for Horizon 2020 support for at least the next 17 months, but I have to tell the Minister that the reality is sometimes quite different. In many cases we are no longer considered the lead partner in a project because there is so much uncertainty about the future relationship. I fear that we will find, more and more, that we simply do not win the bids. As for the future, what are the Government’s intentions? Will our universities continue to be leading players in the successor to Horizon 2020, which will start in 2021—a programme over which, I regret, we will have little or no influence?

How are our universities supposed to plan, especially at a time when there is great uncertainty about the future funding of the sector as a whole? University staff and lecturers are under the cosh, facing pension cuts and living with the uncertainties caused by Brexit. Louise Richardson, vice-chancellor of the University of Oxford, said in a recent article that we must remember:

“Universities are engines of social mobility, drivers of the economy and generators of new ideas”.


I am sure that the Government agree, yet the lack of commitment in relation to the next EU research and innovation programme will undoubtedly make it more difficult to retain and recruit the best researchers—the very people who generate the new ideas and find solutions to the problems of today and the challenges of tomorrow.

Many facts and figures have already been given but I remind noble Lords that, in terms of research, development and innovation activities, in the last seven-year financial framework, the UK contributed €5.4 billion to the EU and the EU contributed €8.8 billion to the UK. The UK is not only the most active participant in Horizon 2020 but our institutions co-ordinate about 20% of the projects that have been funded so far. In Germany it is a mere 11% and in France 9%, to name just two partners. Our influence and collaboration are extraordinary. I fear that without full participation in Horizon 2020, that will diminish.

Last year, we celebrated the 30th anniversary of the Erasmus programme. It is important to note that a higher proportion of those who study abroad achieve a first-class or 2:1 degree compared with those who stay in one place, and have improved employment prospects. It is not only our students who benefit, and have benefited, from this culture and character-building programme but all the public, private and voluntary associations in which the young people later find work. The experience of a year abroad gives them language and communication skills, sometimes provides professional experience, nurtures confidence and builds resilience. As the world of work undergoes a profound change thanks to new technologies, artificial intelligence and the pressures and opportunities resulting from globalisation, these skills are needed much more, not less.

Erasmus students who come to the UK are an important part of the international student community in our universities and communities. They also make an economic contribution to the UK. However, as has been mentioned, perhaps the soft power is of greatest benefit. Erasmus funding is also available to support staff mobility, joint master’s courses and collaborative projects. Many assume that student exchanges relate only to modern languages, but many law students, engineers and biochemists, to name but a few, also benefit from the arrangements. The UK National Agency for Erasmus+, a partnership between the British Council and Ecorys UK, remains wholly committed to the Erasmus+ programme and its benefits. The agreement reached in December between the UK and the EU confirmed that we will be able to participate in EU programmes, including Erasmus, until the end of 2020.

But what then? Will the Government continue to pay for participation in this excellent programme? Students starting university this September will want to be sure that they can participate in Erasmus, and students applying for university in 2018-19 must have certainty so that they can make informed choices. Labour’s position is absolutely clear, and always has been: we will continue to pay, and I warmly welcome that. I look forward to the Minister’s reply, in which I hope that he will also tell your Lordships how the Government are continuing to shape the next Erasmus+ programme so that it is more efficient, more inclusive and has an even greater impact.

The amendments before us today are probing but I trust that the Minister will be able to give a positive response to my noble friend; otherwise, I hope that further amendments will be tabled on Report. In his response, I trust that the Minister will also provide assurance that the Government’s lack of future commitment to date has nothing to do with the way in which the concerns of Brexiteers are being assuaged. I presume that they too would be in favour of maximising research funding and collaboration with European partners that leads to excellence, as well as enhancement of the skills and experience of our students.

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[Lord Callanan]

If my noble friend will have some patience, I will come to that in a second. Supporting young people to study, work, volunteer, teach and train abroad, and supporting their schools, youth and sports organisations to build transnational partnerships, helps us to create a new generation of globally mobile, culturally agile people who can succeed in an increasingly global marketplace.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, I say that the UK has a strong offer to EU and international students, with four universities in the world’s top 10 and 16 in the top 100. In fact, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, pointed out, we received many more students under Erasmus than we sent. Erasmus is an important programme, but it represents only about half the student exchange programmes we have in the UK.

Our young people get first-hand experience of different cultures, helping them to broaden their horizons and their ambitions. Students who have spent time abroad as a part of their degree are much more likely to achieve better degree outcomes, improved starting salaries and stronger employment prospects, as noble Lords have pointed out. This is especially the case for students from disadvantaged or less represented backgrounds.

In response to the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, no decisions have yet been made about post-2020 programme participation as the scope of that programme has not been agreed. We look forward to the Commission’s proposal, which we expect to be published in May. Participation in the successor to the Erasmus+ programme, which we think is valuable, will form part of the negotiations.

The UK fully participated in the mid-term evaluation of the current programme and we reached broadly the same conclusions as the Commission: the programme works well but there is room for improvement and simplification, especially for smaller applicants. UK respondents to the mid-term evaluation made many detailed comments and criticisms, but few suggested that radical change was needed. The proposal for the next programme will be published in May, as I said, and we are currently shaping the debate and looking forward to further discussions with the Commission about that.

We see future co-operation in education programmes as an area of mutual benefit to both the EU and the UK, provided that we can agree a fair ongoing contribution.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, what reassurance can the Minister give to students who are beginning their courses in September this year or September next year? Will they be able to participate in Erasmus or does that depend on whatever decisions the Government take after May? Is that not too late for certainty?

[Lord Callanan]

They will be able to participate in the existing Erasmus scheme up till 2020, should they wish to do so, and, as I said, we will see what the next programme will be. We await the proposals from the Commission in May, and we will discuss our participation in that with them.

As I said, we see future co-operation in education programmes as an area of mutual benefit to both the UK and the EU, provided that we can agree a fair ongoing contribution. We are giving this matter careful consideration as we negotiate the UK’s exit and are listening to the views of the sector.

As many noble Lords are aware, we have proposed a time-limited implementation period based on the current structure of rules and regulations. Looking to the future, we recognise the value of international exchange and collaboration in education and training as part of our vision for the UK as a global nation. That is why we said in our science and innovation policy paper, published in September, that we would discuss with the EU future arrangements to facilitate the mobility of researchers, academics and students engaged in cross-border collaboration. The UK and EU agreed in December that UK entities’ right to participate in current EU programmes for their duration will be unaffected by withdrawal. This includes the Horizon 2020 framework programme for research and innovation.

A number of noble Lords—the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Wallace, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and my noble friend Lord Deben—have asked me about the future of the Horizon programmes. Horizon will be succeeded by the ninth framework programme, as the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, reminded us. This programme is also still being developed by the European Commission, and we are participating in discussions on that. The UK has declared that it would like to reach an ambitious science and innovation agreement with the EU that would include future framework programmes. It is too early to speculate on whether the UK will seek to associate to framework programme nine which, as I said, is still being developed.

The Government are deeply conscious of the importance of the Horizon 2020 and the future framework programmes to research in the UK, in which we have an international reputation. We are working hard to secure a research and innovation agreement with the EU that will take effect after Brexit.

Brexit: Legislating for the United Kingdom’s Withdrawal from the European Union

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am not sure I entirely get the noble Lord’s point, I am sorry to say. I have set out the position on case law. Until we leave the European Union obviously we continue to be bound by the ECJ. Forgive me if I am missing the noble Lord’s point. I am happy to meet him to discuss it.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

It is the turn of the noble Baroness opposite.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, as chairman of the Delegated Powers Committee, I am pleased that the Government seem to be taking on board many of the recommendations we have made in tandem with the Constitution Committee, with which we are working closely. The most important from our point of view is the sunset clause—the time-limiting one—which deals, I think, with many of the worries people have about giving the Government extensive powers. May I take it a little further? There will be primary legislation dealing with other matters where we will wish to take a different approach and have a different policy. My guess is that there will be considerable delegated powers. I ask the Government not to take too much for granted. Our committee will have beady eyes on it all.

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[Lord Blackwell (Con)]

My Lords, in connection with the challenge—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

We have to hear from the noble Baroness on the Conservative Benches.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

I understand that my noble friend does not wish to proceed.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

A unilateral declaration of that kind is not treating fairly all the people who are affected by this problem. The moral high ground is fairness and that is the only ground we can take in a negotiation of this kind. I thoroughly believe that the chances of a complete settlement of this matter are greatly increased if the negotiations are triggered and the Prime Minister makes this the very first requirement, as she has said she will. Nobody in the European Union has so far given any reason for not agreeing with it for all European nationals who are in other countries of residence.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

I respectfully point out to the noble and learned Lord and to the noble Lord, Lord Howard, that Liam Fox said at the Conservative Party conference that the uncertain status of EU nationals living in the UK is one of the “main cards” in the Brexit negotiations. For that reason, I do not trust the Government on this issue.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I do not regard myself as bound by remarks made by Dr Liam Fox anywhere. I have been given the responsibility, so far, of being a Member of this House and of attempting to explain to your Lordships, as fully and briefly as I can, what I believe to be the moral high ground: to treat all people from the European Union who are in countries other than their countries of origin according to the rights secured by the European Union treaty. The time for a fair negotiation of the whole matter is when that treaty is departed from, in accordance with the rules set out in Article 50. That would come very quickly because, as I have already said—I am repeating myself now but I will not do it again—I have heard no argument from Europe against this, except that the negotiations have not been triggered in accordance with the provisions of the treaty itself.

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[Lord Tebbit]

That is exactly what the Prime Minister has said: we will look for an equitable solution. That means, in my view, that the rights of those who are currently resident here who, although they are not British subjects, are citizens of the EU, should be kept. But, of course, so should the rights of British citizens living within the EU. That is not a difficult matter. Why is everybody here today so excited about an amendment that looks after foreigners and not the British?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I point out to the noble Lord that the amendment is structured as it is because we are conscious of the powers of the British Government, who are able to determine the lives of the EU citizens resident in this country but not able to determine the lives of our own citizens abroad. That does not mean to say that we think any less of them; we are fighting for them.

[Lord Tebbit]

Of course we do not have the power to look after our citizens overseas—not in these days when we do not have many gunboats—but we have an obligation to look after the rights of those people and to look after those rights first. The best way we can preserve the rights of all those concerned—EU citizens here and our citizens on the continent—is to allow Article 50 to be proceeded with as expeditiously as possible, to get the worries over, and for a decent and proper arrangement to be made. I only wish that European statesmen such as Mrs Merkel would come forward, perhaps arm in arm with Herr Juncker, and say that that is exactly what they want, too. We do not need this amendment; it would make it much more difficult to get to that solution.

A New Partnership with the EU

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend enables me to highlight again that we absolutely do not wish that to happen. How we do that will be a subject for negotiation. As I said at the Dispatch Box last week, it is interesting that a number of other institutions and organisations, here and in Europe, see the benefits of avoiding that for both our mutual interests. As that realisation begins to settle in in the minds of those in Europe and here, I have every hope that we will reach that outcome.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, in the Statement, the Government quite rightly recognise the excellence of our university sector. However, warm words are not enough. In the organisational chart of the Minister’s department there is no mention of higher education—there is no person assigned to the task of listening to and incorporating the views of the sector in the Brexit negotiations. How will their views be taken into consideration?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

A number of my officials have met those within the higher education sector and I have been fortunate enough to visit universities and meet them myself. I am delighted that we are so ably assisted by my right honourable friend Jo Johnson, who has been feeding in the views of those in the HE sector. Let me take this opportunity to assure the noble Baroness that we are determined to look at issues such as Horizon 2020, as the Statement implied, from the point of view of what is in the national interest in the years ahead. Where there is scope for continued co-operation and collaboration, we will look at what the options might be.

Brexit: Article 50

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

We really should try to go round the House. It is the Labour Party’s turn.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the Minister rightly celebrates the independence of the judiciary. However, my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer asked him to condemn the words of Sajid Javid, who by his words undermined what the Minister is saying. What the right honourable Minister said was completely unacceptable; indeed, those words corrode the very democracy that the noble Lord seeks to uphold. Please will he condemn the words of the right honourable Sajid Javid?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sorry to say that I have nothing further to add on this matter.

Next Steps in Leaving the European Union

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

On the first point, I fear that I have little more to add. As regards financial services, my noble friend makes a very good second point. Again, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, my other ministerial colleagues and I have been meeting representatives of the financial sector. They have addressed their need for access to talent and access to markets, which brings us on to the issues of passporting and equivalence, and all those points. We are now considering all those matters and noting carefully the points that they are raising.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, the sentence in the Statement saying that the Government will convert legislation into UK law “wherever practical” gives little comfort to those of us who believe that workers’, consumers’ and environmental rights are best protected by membership of the European Union. I also go back to what the noble Lord on the Lib Dem Benches talked about in relation to universities. I declare my interest from the University of Bath, where I know that several people have already withdrawn their candidature from various posts because they are worried about not having a future in the university. Can the Minister say whether all those EU staff who are currently employed in British universities will be able to stay?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

On the first point of “wherever practical”, I am more than happy to discuss with the noble Baroness any specific points that she might have. This is one of the reasons why we have made this announcement when we have: we need to take a long, hard look at what needs to be done to achieve our aim and to ensure that, when it comes to the day that we leave the EU, everyone knows exactly where they stand, mindful of our wishes to ensure that we have certainty and to protect workers’ rights, for example. If the noble Baroness wishes to raise specific points, I am more than happy to meet her. On her second point about universities and university staff withdrawing, I am obviously disappointed and saddened to hear that. The Government’s position on EU citizens and UK citizens overseas is clear. We very much hope to come to an agreement with the EU on the rights of UK citizens overseas and therefore of EU citizens here, and we see no reason why we should not be able to do so.

Exiting the European Union

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I cannot comment in detail on whether we will adopt the vehicle and the approach that the noble Lord sets out, but obviously I will take away that point and discuss it. I simply repeat that we will keep Parliament fully informed and engaged as we go along.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Statement mentions that the Minister’s department now has more than 180 staff in London, plus the expertise of more than 120 officials in Brussels. We are at the very beginning of the whole process of renegotiating and drafting legislation, and we are going to need far, far more officials. Where are they going to come from? Can the Minister reassure me that the Government will not get expertise from companies such as McKinsey? I have nothing against McKinsey but it is hugely expensive to get people in from those companies. We need more civil servants, but where are they going to come from and when will they arrive?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

We are fully aware of the challenge that we face and the noble Baroness is absolutely right. We have been inundated with offers—not just from consultancies but from right across the board—from individuals and organisations wanting to help. We are fully engaged. As the noble Baroness rightly implies, the first step is to ensure that we use the best talent that already exists, and we are doing that. We have spent the last few weeks assembling a team and an office to make sure that we get into a good position to do all the things that I have been talking about this afternoon. That work is continuing, and we are continuing to build up the team. We know that the challenge we face is considerable and that on the other side of the table will be a sizeable and equally experienced team. If the noble Baroness has ideas on who to talk to, I shall be happy to hear them.