Equipment and Protective Systems Intended for Use in Potentially Explosive Atmospheres Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2017 (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)
My Lords, I rise in support of these regulations. I declare two interests. First, I am a member of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee; it agreed with the regulations but I have certain questions. Secondly, I am a member of your Lordships’ Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland Sub-Committee, which now looks at the Windsor Framework. If I may, I will ask the Minister some questions.
As part of our committee’s proceedings, officials asked the department for further information about engagement with a cross-representation of stakeholders. The Government have not undertaken a public consultation. Given this instrument’s specific remit, is that normal or should such consultation have taken place? The department said that, in the absence of a functioning Northern Ireland Executive, it was not able to engage with Northern Ireland Ministers but did maintain strong engagement with Northern Ireland colleagues in the Health and Safety Executive for Northern Ireland, the Department for the Economy and the Department of Justice; no concerns were raised. Can the Minister indicate in his response the format of that engagement? Was it by email, face-to-face consultation or some other means?
Obviously, because of the Windsor Framework there will be an element of divergence in standards. How will that be managed to ensure that there are no conflicts or challenges? Who will monitor that level and degree of divergence and how will it be recorded? Is the Department for Business and Trade undertaking an audit of areas of divergence as a result of the implementation of the Windsor Framework? The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, is also a member of the protocol committee, and that is one area that we have been exploring with the Foreign Secretary. We have been trying to get that list or audit and, as far as I can recall, we have been told simply that it does not exist. It is important that that audit is conducted and updated on an ongoing basis.
From what I can see, the purpose of these regulations is to ensure that they are implemented in accordance with the Windsor Framework. What role will the EU have in relation to that implementation? Will the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland have a surveillance role and report to the Department for Business and Trade in London to ensure that implementation is in accordance with the Windsor Framework and with proper health and safety standards? As the Minister suggested, the regulations deal with explosives, gas and petrol stations, and the output thereof.
I agree with the regulations, but I have those few questions, to which I would like a response.
Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
My Lords, as the noble Baroness said, I, too, am a member of the committee on the Northern Ireland protocol—or the Windsor Framework, as it is now called, although the two are interchangeable, not just in name but largely in substance. It should be said by way of general comment that this particularly technical statutory instrument deals with an important area but is illustrative of the fact that, under the Windsor Framework, Northern Ireland is subject to EU law, over which no one has given their consent or had a vote or any say at all.
Regarding some of the claims made about the Windsor Framework, it sometimes needs to be remembered that, in Parliament—the other place and here—we look regularly at a whole raft of statutory instruments which implement EU law in Northern Ireland, and the implications for divergence. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, will know that from our experience in the protocol committee. She and others across the board raised the important point about the implications for divergence: the continuing impact over months, years and even decades, if this is allowed to continue, of rules in Northern Ireland which will diverge from the rest of the United Kingdom, either through acts of the European Union, in areas of law which pertain to Northern Ireland under annexe 2 of the protocol, or by actions of the UK Government, now or in future, to a greater or lesser extent, in which they seek to diverge from EU rules. All these will have an impact on Northern Ireland, and in areas where we cannot foresee the outcome. That is why, although people claim that the Windsor Framework is a settlement, it gives rise to future possible areas of dispute.
When our committee at some point ceases its work, there is no evidence thus far that there will be anyone else to pick up that work. People say that the Northern Ireland Assembly will become responsible for it, when it is restored, but there will need to be a massive increase in capacity, skills and personnel to begin to grapple with the massive amount of legislation that is going to come down the track—and for MLAs to get a handle on the sort of issues that are going to arise. I worry about that.
On a couple of specific points, in relation to the lack of an impact assessment, we understand that one has not been prepared because, according to paragraph 13.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, measures resulting from the framework are out of scope of assessment. Can I have clarification on what that means? Measures resulting from the framework—I presume that is the Windsor Framework—are out of scope of assessment. That seems a rather sweeping statement, but it is there in the Explanatory Memorandum. It seems strange that we should have such a declaration, because my understanding was not that that was the case, but I would be grateful for clarification. Maybe I have misread it or taken it wrong, but it is certainly a concerning statement that is contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.
Another point mentioned in the first paragraph of the Explanatory Notes and in paragraph 7.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum is that the European Union legislation listed in annexe 2 is implemented in Northern Ireland—that is, annexe 2 of the protocol, or the Windsor Framework as it is now called. I would be grateful for clarification, if the Minister can give it—and, if he cannot give it today, I would understand if he writes to me instead—about that statement as well. The Government have told us over and over again that the Windsor Framework removes whole areas of EU law, some 1,700 pages indeed, but the vast bulk of EU law applies to Northern Ireland by virtue of annexe 2, particularly paragraphs 5 to 10.
I would be grateful again for an explanation, although I understand if it is not possible today, but in due course, of that statement as well and its implications in terms of EU legislation. It is stated twice, in the Explanatory Notes and the Explanatory Memorandum and, if these things are meaningful, they have obviously been written deliberately and with consideration.