Scotland: Devolution

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, bishops need to tread warily when discussing matters Scottish. Although I am thoroughly English by birth and background, I can, I think, claim rather closer connections with Scotland than some whom I observe wearing the kilt at the Chester Caledonian Association dinners which I regularly attend.

Let me explain. I have a Scottish wife—my one and only wife, I hasten to add—and two Scottish degrees, all three from Edinburgh. I trained for ordination in Scotland as somebody sponsored by the Scottish Episcopal Church, and I have owned a house in Scotland for 25 years and will happily retire there in a few years’ time. I am Anglican co-chair of the current Church of England-Church of Scotland ecumenical conversations. So tread I shall, if nevertheless warily. If I have learnt one thing in my discussions with the Church of Scotland, it is that were the Kirk ever to contemplate having bishops, which remains, I think, doubtful, they would need to be very different from English bishops to be acceptable.

My learning curve about Scotland began soon after I had enrolled at Edinburgh University in 1974. I was in the student common room watching a football match between England and Russia. Russia scored first, and the whole room exploded with joy and everyone cheered. Had it been in an equivalent English university and Scotland had been playing Russia, the English students, I think, would have been enthusiastically supporting Scotland. But in Scotland things were clearly different. I suddenly awoke to the fact that I was in a foreign land.

What I was beginning to learn 40 years ago was that Scotland is self-consciously a different nation from England. In all my subsequent contact with Scotland, not least during the recent referendum campaign, which I observed closely, I have been on a progressive learning curve about the separate dignity of Scotland as a nation. I think that the English often find that hard really to take in. Even some aspects of the recent campaign rather undergirded that to me.

Let us never forget that, for most of human history, Scotland has been a fully independent country, with its own culture, and Hadrian’s Wall stands as testament to that. The question on the ballot paper, “Should Scotland be an independent country?”, ought to have been, “Should Scotland revert to being an independent country?”, which is how it has been for most of the time. I say all this as a supporter of the union.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for giving way. May I point out that Hadrian’s Wall never has been the border between England and Scotland? It is not near the border today and, in fact, runs through the middle of the city of Newcastle upon Tyne.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

I do know where Hadrian’s Wall runs, but the fact that the Romans did not get to the rest of this island is significant, even though I fully accept that the border, which has moved over time, is not coterminous. But the very fact that the Romans did not conquer Scotland reinforces the underlying point I am seeking to make.

I chose not vote in the recent referendum, although I was entitled to do so, because I felt it was a question which the Scots should decide. If I had voted, I would have voted no. However, I found the recent no campaign disturbing to the point of embarrassment. It was conducted largely on negative, almost threatening terms—“worse apart” rather than “better together”. When this did not seem to be working, after the second televised debate in particular, the strategy changed towards promises and inducements, with the Prime Minister suddenly to the fore. How much better it would have been had he headed up the principled case for the union from the start and made that case on a positive basis, as indeed did former Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

I would draw two conclusions from what I have said so far in relation to today’s debate. First, the English in particular need to be very careful not to be seen to take the union with Scotland for granted—a lot of this is about perceptions—or to take the union as a foregone historical conclusion, which it clearly is not. The English and the Scots may share a great deal but fundamentally they are different cultures and nations which, for the past 300 or so years, have formed a richly creative political union. That union now needs to be nurtured on a new basis, especially given the dismantling of the British Empire. The English tendency to view Scotland in a slightly paternalist, patronising way needs to be consigned firmly to the past as the new devolution arrangements are negotiated. I hope that is the key in which all that is now going to be discussed is conducted.

Finally, I would be cautious before drawing any lessons from the recent referendum for wider questions of devolution in the UK. What will now happen in Scotland reflects the particular historical dynamic of English-Scottish relations. Perhaps elements will be replicated in relation to Wales and Northern Ireland, and even some regions of England, but not necessarily so. The resounding outcome of the referendum in the north-east on a regional assembly a few years ago illustrates the specific nature of the Scottish question. To regard the English-Scottish relationship as simply the primary and maximal example of broader devolved relationships in the UK would be to invite a repetition of recent errors of judgment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, like others I welcome the fact that this debate is taking place after a no victory in the referendum in September. I also welcome the fact that the debate has been marked by the maiden contribution from my noble friend Lord Lennie, who gave us a very entertaining and thoughtful speech. As a fellow north-easterner, I am very pleased to welcome him to the House and echo his kind words about that special and historic town of Tynemouth, where I was born and lived for a number of years.

I spent most of the summer campaigning for Better Together in the borders region of Scotland, which is not far from my home just south of the border in Northumberland. It was an exhilarating and troubling experience—exhilarating because it was a real pleasure to work alongside young volunteers in the borders regional office. It was the first time in many years of political campaigning that I have taken my leafleting and canvassing instructions from 19 and 20 year-olds, but they were extremely able and inspiring young people, to whom I pay a very warm tribute.

At the same time, there were many troubling elements of the campaign, referred to particularly by my noble friend Lady Liddell. Even in the borders, where it was clear that the no vote was in a strong majority, people were nervous about putting no posters up in their window or no stickers in their car. There was an intimidatory side of nationalism which really troubled me throughout the whole of that campaign; that is something that we have to think very carefully about when we move forward in the period that lies ahead.

In my experience, people voted no not because of the last-minute promise of powers, although they are important and I support them. They voted no for two reasons. First, Scots are well aware of the interdependent nature of the UK economy in terms of trade, business and currency; but the other reason, which I think was just as strong, was their recognition of the close family links and bonds that unite us across the United Kingdom and make people in the borders and elsewhere in Scotland feel British as well as Scottish and not wanting to destroy those links for the future.

My conclusion from the work that I did during the campaign was really that our first priority should be to ensure that the UK as a whole works better together for the future. Indeed, crossing, as I did, the border every day, I would certainly like to promote some cross-border infrastructure projects, which would be very necessary—in particular, the long overdue dualling of the A1 between Newcastle and Edinburgh, which I seem to have berated every Government about for the last 30 years, yet we still have not made the progress that we would like. There are also train links, which are very topical at the moment with all the talk about HS2 and HS3; so far, they do not seem to benefit hugely the north-east and Scottish link. Perhaps that could also be looked at. Furthermore, we should try to make the devolution settlement that we have at the moment work better, perhaps by having a better dialogue between the different bodies. I thought about this when supporting what the Welsh Government did in terms of plastic bags. We in England may at long last be going down that route, but surely it would have been good to have had more dialogue about it between the devolved authorities. When it is a good idea, perhaps we can work together and perhaps in a more timely way than has been done so far.

Unsurprisingly, a lot of this debate has been devoted to the so-called English question. I am not at all attracted to the kind of pan-England or all-England solution that has been mentioned, particularly that of English votes for English issues. Even if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland did not exist, there would be a very great centralisation problem in England, which would need to be addressed. We should keep that firmly in our minds. I feel that very strongly in the north-east. In many ways, I think that we would feel as marginalised in an English Parliament as we would in a UK Parliament—perhaps particularly so because our voting patterns are much closer to voting patterns in Scotland and Wales than they are to certain parts of England.

Devolution is not just about nationality; it is also about taking decisions at an appropriate level. I remember when I was Prisons Minister for a short time, in 1997, when we put forward the devolution legislation. In the course of my work, I spent two days with the Scottish prison service; at the end of that, I felt that it would rather be Scottish Prisons Minister than England and Wales Prisons Minister, simply because the scale on which the Scottish Minister operated meant that it was possible to get prison governors and the people involved in the prison system around a table to hammer out a policy on an appropriate scale. We must keep thinking of the appropriateness of decision-making when we approach this devolution issue in England.

We should not hurry. We should deliver on our promises to Scotland—that is vital, because we have made those promises—but then we should think carefully, either via a royal commission or a constitutional convention, and not impose a top-down solution. While I personally favour regional government in the north-east and hope that it can come back on to the agenda as my noble friend Lord Prescott outlined, I none the less think that England will need different solutions for different areas. Simply trying to draw something up within Whitehall and Westminster is not good enough. We have to think carefully about how we involve people as we move ahead.

Scotland: Independence Referendum

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, very much welcome this debate and would like to congratulate warmly the noble Lord, Lord Lang, but with a slight touch of envy. I entered in vain the Private Member’s Ballot to try to secure a debate on precisely this subject, so I very much welcome his successful efforts in so doing today, and the manner in which he introduced it.

I am very glad that the terms of the debate are about the implications for the United Kingdom as a whole, because I have been worried that, particularly south of the border, we have been somewhat sleepwalking towards this situation and not really considering its full implications or how much we should treasure the union that has been so widely appreciated in comments around the Chamber today.

I come to this debate as a borderer—in fact, I frequently walk across the border in the magnificent Cheviot hills—and as someone who was born and brought up north of Hadrian’s Wall, which is sometimes misleadingly referred to as the border, even though we know that in the days of the wall England and Scotland did not exist in anything like the forms that we know today. However, as a borderer, I have always felt utterly at home in both Northumberland and the Scottish borders, and the thought of having an international frontier, and possibly even a different currency, naturally alarms and dismays me.

Let me say clearly that I respect the right of people in Scotland to have a referendum and to decide their future, but I hope that in making their decision they will think of the effect on the rest of us and of our common sense of identity and who we are. Many of us south of the border—I include myself in this—do not want to have to increasingly define ourselves as exclusively English rather than British. There is the even more alarming thought of becoming a foreigner in part of what we think of as our common heritage and country. Many of us are genuinely British. It has been referred to today how many of us have mixed ancestry. I certainly have some Scottish ancestry, although I doubt that I could qualify under the terms of the consultation that the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, has just outlined—although I am married to a Mac, so that might help. But many of us have that mixed background and have roots in all parts of the UK.

It may be worth adding that many people have come to live in Britain in recent decades, and they chose to settle in the UK rather than in England, Scotland or Wales. Their sense of belonging will also be greatly changed if there is a yes vote north of the border.

Being mixed is a cause for celebration. I was intrigued to note the statistics released by the Macsween haggis company, showing that 60% of its production went to England. Having participated in a Burns night in east Sussex this year, I can well believe it.

My desire to see the union continue is also influenced by my political affiliation. This may not have been stressed much in the debate, but many of us are party-political animals and very much value our political links across the union. Many of my closest political friends are from Scotland and Wales. That is not perhaps surprising given the many important and emotional ties between Tynesiders, Clydesiders, people in the south Wales valleys and the various industrial parts of England. The people in those areas have worked closely together since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution to try to improve living and working conditions and mounted many campaigns with common motivations, principles and ideas. In fact, the National Health Service encapsulates perfectly what I am trying to say. After all, it was created by a Welsh Secretary of State, Aneurin Bevan, in a Government headed by an Englishman, Clement Attlee, under a party founded by a Scot, Keir Hardie. That vividly illustrates what I am trying to say. I am sure that those with other political affiliations will certainly not want to see their strong political affiliations and ties broken through this process.

I strongly support devolution in the UK but regret that it has developed in such a way as to be increasingly confused with national identity. While identity is an important part of devolution, it is not the whole story. Devolution is also about decentralising and taking decisions at the most appropriate level. I regard the outcome of the devolution vote in the north-east of England as a tragedy but believe that the issues it raised have not gone away and will, I hope, be revisited at some time in the future.

In conclusion, if there is a yes vote next September, I will wake up the morning after that feeling that I no longer belong to the country I thought I did. It will be traumatic for many of us but I hope fervently that that will not happen and that in the next few months we will celebrate what we have achieved together and resolve to achieve even greater successes in the future.