Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to all the government amendments in this group, which are part of a package of changes that the Government have brought forward to support scrutiny and accountability of the financial services regulators.

This group of amendments focuses on supporting that work through independent analysis and scrutiny. The Government have listened to the view expressed by noble Lords that, for there to be effective scrutiny, it is critical that Parliament and others have access to accurate and impartial information to assist in assessing the performance of the regulators. The Government have carefully considered the proposal, put forward by my noble friend Lord Bridges in Grand Committee, to establish an office for financial regulatory accountability, or OFRA.

While the Government cannot accept the proposal to establish an OFRA, we have considered what more can be done to support the provision of independent analysis and scrutiny. FSMA already requires the regulators to consult on rule proposals and establish independent panels to act as a “critical friend” in the rule-making process. The regulators seek to engage the panels at an early stage of policy development and the panels voluntarily produce reports annually on their work.

Through the Bill, the Government are already enhancing the role of the statutory panels to support scrutiny and accountability. This includes Clause 43, which requires the regulators to publish a statement of policy on how they recruit members of their statutory panels. In addition, following the debate in Commons Committee the Government introduced Clause 44, which requires panel members to be external to the regulators and the Treasury.

However, the Government have heard the calls from across the House for further reassurance that the regulators’ approach to panel recruitment will ensure that panel members are drawn from a diverse range of stakeholders and are sufficiently independent of the regulators. The Government have therefore introduced Amendments 23, 24, and 57, which will require the FCA, the PRA and the PSR, as part of their annual reports, to set out how recruitment to their panels has been consistent with their statements of policy.

The Bill also already introduces measures to strengthen the quality of the regulators’ cost-benefit analysis, including the introduction of new, independent panels to support the production and development of CBA. It is important that CBA reflect as accurately as possible the costs and benefits to firms and consumers of implementing and following regulation. In assessing this, the experience of regulated firms themselves is vital.

The Government are grateful to my noble friend Lord Holmes for raising this issue in Grand Committee, and again through Amendments 44 and 47 today. The Government have reflected on that earlier debate and introduced Amendments 43 and 46, which will require both the FCA and the PRA to appoint at least two members to their CBA panels from authorised firms.

To ensure that Parliament has access to the important work of the panels, the Government have introduced Amendment 50, which provides a power for the Treasury to require the panels to produce annual reports. The Treasury will then be required to lay these reports before Parliament. I can confirm that, in the first instance, the Government will bring forward the necessary secondary legislation to require the CBA panels and the FCA Consumer Panel to publish an annual report to be laid before Parliament, reflecting the fact that the work of the Consumer Panel and the new CBA panels has been of keen interest to noble Lords in earlier debates. The Government will keep this under review, and the legislation will allow the Government to require other panels to publish annual reports and lay these before Parliament if they consider that appropriate in future.

Finally, Amendment 95 seeks to strengthen the independence of the complaints scheme through which anyone directly affected by how the regulators have arrived at their decisions can raise concerns. The scheme is overseen by the independent complaints commissioner, and Amendment 95 seeks to strengthen that independence further by making the Treasury responsible for the appointment of the commissioner, rather than the regulators.

Existing legislation requires the complaints commissioner to publish an annual report, including trends in complaints and recommendations for how the regulators can improve, which is to be laid before Parliament. Amendment 95 also enables the Treasury to direct the commissioner to include additional matters in the annual report. This will ensure that, where appropriate, the Government can make sure that the report covers issues which the Government consider are important to support scrutiny of. Amendment 95 also requires the regulators to include a summary of where they have disagreed with the commissioner’s recommendations, and their reasons for doing so, in their response to the commissioner’s annual report.

The Government have been clear that the regulators’ increased responsibilities as a result of the Bill must be balanced with clear accountability, appropriate democratic input and transparent oversight. The package of amendments we are debating in this group contribute to that and support Parliament through additional independent analysis and scrutiny.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in the debate on this group of amendments. I will speak to Amendments 42, 44, 45 and 47 in my name, and offer my support for all the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Bridges, to which I have added my name. I will leave him to set them out.

I again thank my noble friend the Minister, and the Treasury officials and team, for all the meetings and work done during Committee, and between Committee and Report, on the question of regulator scrutiny and accountability. I thank her particularly for adopting my Amendments 44 and 47 on the membership of the panels. On my Amendments 42 and 45, could she say a little more about the evidence base the panel will use to come to its recommendations? Would it be valuable to publish any dissenting opinions on the matters to be published? This would be extremely helpful for Parliament to scrutinise the panel’s decisions.

Finally, I ask a broader question around cost-benefit analysis. How will HMT and the regulator seek to ensure that the whole CBA process is meaningful, balanced, considers all majority and minority views, and does not fall into the potential trap of being a utilitarianist pursuit, which cost-benefit analysis can sometimes fall foul of?

That said, I thank again the Minister and the Treasury officials for their support for the amendments and for the discussions we had to come to this point, particularly on Amendments 44 and 47. I look forward to hearing in detail, particularly from my noble friend Lord Bridges and the Minister, the suggestion around the office for regulator accountability.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, as your Lordships know, the Bill delivers the outcomes of the future regulatory framework, or FRF, review. It repeals hundreds of pieces of retained EU law relating to financial services and, as we have discussed, will give the regulators significant new rule-making responsibilities. The Government have been clear that these increased responsibilities must be balanced with clear accountability, appropriate democratic input and transparent oversight. The Bill therefore introduces substantial enhancements to the scrutiny and accountability framework for the regulators.

Following Grand Committee, the Government have brought forward a series of amendments which, taken together, seek to improve the Bill through further formalising the role of Parliamentary accountability, supporting Parliament through independent analysis and scrutiny, and increasing reporting and transparency to drive overall accountability. The group we are now debating covers proposals aimed at increasing reporting and transparency to drive overall accountability. I look forward to discussing the Government’s other amendments on accountability later today.

There has been significant interest in ensuring sufficient reporting, in particular of how the FCA and PRA are operationalising and advancing their new secondary competitiveness and growth objectives. The regulators are required to publish annual reports setting out how they have advanced their objectives, which are laid before Parliament. Clause 26 ensures that, in future, these reports must also set out how they have advanced the new secondary objectives.

Clause 37, introduced following the debate in Commons Committee, enables the Treasury to direct the FCA and PRA to report on performance where that is necessary for the scrutiny of their functions. To further support transparency, the Government published a call for proposals on 9 May, seeking views on what additional metrics the regulators should publish to support scrutiny of their work advancing their new objectives. This closes on 4 July.

The Government have been clear that they expect there will be a step change in the regulators’ approach to growth and competitiveness following the introduction of the new objectives, while maintaining high regulatory standards. It will therefore be important to have detailed information available to scrutinise how the regulators embed their new objectives into their day-to-day functions.

The Government have therefore tabled Amendment 11, which will require the FCA and the PRA to produce two reports within 12 and 24 months of the new objectives coming into force. These reports will set out how the new objectives have been embedded in their operations, and how they have been advanced. Once the new objectives have been embedded, it is appropriate that the regulators report on them in the same way as their other objectives, through their annual reports.

The Government have also heard the calls for further transparency to drive overall accountability in other areas of the regulators’ work. Clauses 27, 46 and Schedule 7 require the regulators to publish statements of policy on how they will review their rules. The Government’s response to the November 2021 FRF review consultation set out the regulators’ commitment to providing clear and appropriate channels for industry and other stakeholders to raise concerns about specific rules in their rule review framework.

Reflecting representations made during my engagement with noble Lords between Grand Committee and Report, the Government have tabled Amendments 20, 52 and 56, which strengthen this commitment. The amendments will place a statutory requirement on the regulators to provide a clear process for stakeholders, including the statutory panels, to make representations in relation to rules and a statutory requirement to set out how they will respond.

I hope that noble Lords will support these amendments, which seek to provide Parliament, the Government and stakeholders with the relevant information to effectively scrutinise the regulators’ performance and drive overall accountability. I therefore beg to move Amendment 11, and I intend to move the remaining government amendments in this group when they are reached.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in the second day of Report. I declare my financial services interests as set out in the register. I thank my noble friend the Minister and all the Treasury officials for their engagement during and particularly after Committee with the issues in this group of amendments.

I will speak to Amendments 12, 19, 40, 41 and 92 in my name. Noble Lords with an eagle eye on the Marshalled List will note that there is more than a similarity between the amendments I tabled in Committee and in this group, and the government amendments. I thank the Government sincerely for taking on board not just the issues but also my wording.

Ultimately, as the Minister said, this is one of the most significant changes to financial services regulation in a generation. It is important that, in structuring the role of the regulator, we have at this stage the right level of scrutiny and the right requirements for the regulators to provide the information required at the right time to undertake that scrutiny.

The arrival of the international competitiveness objective is a positive thing within the Bill. These amendments give scrutiny the right opportunity to see how that objective is operationalised. Does the Minister agree that it is important to look at every element of information and the timeliness of all the elements being given to both financial services regulators to enable the right level of scrutiny to take place? To that extent, I ask her to comment particularly on Amendment 92, alongside my other amendments, because this seems like no more than the base level of detail that one would want to be able to form that crucial scrutiny function.

Having said that, I am incredibly grateful to the Minister, the Government and all the officials for taking on board so many of the issues and the wording from Committee, and bringing them forward in this group.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Some of the implications of the noble Lord’s contribution on potentially obliging people to use certain payment systems show that including financial inclusion under the consumer protection objective could have quite far-reaching consequences that we would want fully to think through and consult on before changing the objectives. That lies behind the Government’s concern about this approach.

As I was saying, this does not mean that there is no action to promote financial inclusion by the Government and the regulators. Major banks are required to provide basic bank accounts for those who would otherwise be unbanked. As of June last year, there were 7.4 million basic bank accounts open and during 2020-21 around 70,000 basic bank account customers were upgraded to standard personal current accounts, graduating to more mainstream financial services products. The FCA’s financial lives survey has shown that those aged over 75 are becoming more digitally included, with 64% digitally active in 2020 compared to 41% in 2017. However, we absolutely recognise that there is more work to be done in this area. The Government have allocated £100 million of dormant asset funding to Fair4All Finance, which is being used to improve access to affordable credit, with a further £45 million allocated recently to deliver initiatives to support those struggling with the increased cost of living.

While the FCA has an important role to play in supporting financial inclusion, it is already able to act where appropriate. For example, it has previously intervened in the travel insurance market to help consumers with pre-existing medical conditions access affordable credit. As the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, recognised, the new consumer duty developed by the FCA is yet to come into force and we are yet to feel the full benefits of that. However, importantly, these issues cannot be solved through regulation alone. Where there are gaps in the provision of products to consumers, the Government will continue to work closely with the FCA and other key players across industry and the third sector to address them.

I turn to Amendment 14 from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton. I reassure him that the FCA is already well placed to take into account the protection of consumers’ mental health within its existing objectives. The regulator’s vulnerability guidance sets out a number of best practices for firms, from upskilling staff to product service and design, and specifically recognises poor mental health as a driver of consumer vulnerability. Where FCA-authorised firms fail to meet their obligations to treat customers fairly, including those in vulnerable circumstances, the FCA is already empowered to take further action. Since the publication of the vulnerability guidance, the FCA has engaged with firms that are not meeting their obligations and agreed remedial steps.

In summary, the Government believe that this is an incredibly important issue but consider that it is for the Government to lead on the broader issues of financial inclusion. Where necessary, in the existing framework the FCA is able to have the appropriate powers to support work on this important issue. While the Government do not support these amendments, I hope that I have set out how they are committed to making further progress in this area. I therefore hope that my noble friend Lord Holmes will withdraw his amendment and that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, will not press theirs when they are reached.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who has participated in this debate, and my noble friend the Minister for her response. This will continue to be a significant issue until we have something in the country which looks far more like financial inclusion for all those who are currently feeling the sharp end, or the wrong end, and who are shut out of so much of what passes for financial services today. However, having listened to my noble friend the Minister, I will not push this matter any further today. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 13.

Banks: Closures and Shared Banking Hubs

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Thursday 27th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, in begging leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I declare my financial services interests as set out in the register.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government do not make assessments of bank branch networks or intervene in commercial decisions to close branches. Banks should follow FCA guidance, including considering alternative access where appropriate. One example of this is shared banking hubs. More than 50 hubs have been announced, with four now open, and the pace of delivery is expected to accelerate over the coming months. People can also access everyday banking via their local post office.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, in the past 12 months, 847 bank branches have closed or are set to close. Four shared banking hubs have opened. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that the Government need to act to ensure local banking provision, including deposit taking as well as withdrawals and advice? They must also act to ensure acceptance of, as well as access to, cash; otherwise, what currency is cash if there is no place to spend it? Finally, will the Government consider carefully commissioning a review into access to digital financial services to ensure that everyone can benefit from all the financial innovations in that space?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as my noble friend will know, in the Financial Services and Markets Bill, we are legislating to protect access to cash. That covers withdrawal as well as deposit services. The Government do not plan to mandate the acceptance of cash. That would be an unprecedented intervention. However, the increased access particularly to deposit services for businesses should allow those who wish to continue to accept cash to be able to do so on a more sustainable footing. My noble friend makes an interesting suggestion. The Government are working hard to ensure financial inclusion, including digital financial inclusion. I will think about his suggestion very carefully.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st March 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid that I have gone as far as I can in detailing the approach that we would take to Parliament. We expect to engage Parliament fully. However, the legal basis for the digital pound will be determined alongside consideration of its design. Work is not yet at the stage where we can provide that further clarity.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate and my noble friend the Minister for her response. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will check for the noble Lord because I do not have that level of detail in my notes. They say that “85% of payments” were made without cash, not “the value of payments”, but I should double-check to clarify for him.

In the light of these innovations in the way that we bank, the Government recognise that it is incredibly important that people are not left behind—we have heard that in today’s debate. Many people still rely on physical services: in particular, millions of people still rely on cash and need access to withdrawal and deposit services.

Working with industry, the Government are already undertaking positive action to support cash access in this context. For example, existing initiatives subsidise free-to-use ATMs in remote and deprived areas. Following changes in the Financial Services Act 2021, there is a new ability to have cashback without purchase services, enabling withdrawals to the penny that people request. Communities can ask LINK to assess whether additional cash services are needed, with several major banks and building societies funding new shared services. As a result of that initiative, over 70 communities are due to get new cash deposit facilities.

In that context, it is important not to underestimate the significance of the provisions contained in the Bill. It is the first time, in UK law, that we are protecting people’s ability to access cash. The Bill provides the FCA, as the independent regulator, with the responsibility and necessary powers to ensure reasonable provision of withdrawal and deposit services.

In evidence to Parliament, the regulator said that it anticipates taking account of reasonable access to free cash services for personal customers—subject to due process, which includes a requirement to consult on its rules. In using its powers, the FCA will utilise the wealth of data that it has collected, including on access at the regional level, and it must have regard to local deficiencies in cash access services and the Government’s policy statement.

The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, asked about the policy statement. It is currently being developed, and we expect it to be published after the Bill completes its passage. It is important that it takes into account the latest available data and evidence ahead of its publication.

I have clarification for the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, on the statistic that I used, so I shall not need to write. I can confirm that 85% of the number, not the value, of payments were made without cash.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

While we are getting clarifications in flight, may I ask my noble friend the Minister about the 86% of people using contactless? Are 86% of people using contactless all the time or are they making one payment a year? If someone from the Box is able to answer that in flight, that would be helpful.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

That request has been noted. Reading the statistic in my notes, I would say that 86% of adults have used contactless payments, rather than it being a comment on how much they use them as part of their payment mix. If I am wrong, I hope that the people supporting me will tell me.

I talked about the policy statement and the significance of the measure that we are taking in the Bill. We have heard from the Committee that not everyone agrees with that approach. In legislating to protect access to cash, the Government have sought to provide that reassurance for those who rely on cash for a number of different reasons.

We have heard why it can be important for accessibility and for people to manage their finances. We have also heard about privacy concerns. However, we have not sought for the legislation to be prescriptive on the cost, type of facility or range of services offered at facilities. We are seeking to ensure that this primary legislation allows for innovation and flexibility, as the needs of people and our communities evolve over time. I think those advocating for greater access to services also recognised the need for that flexibility and change in needs over time. It is for those reasons that the Government do not support Amendments 176, 178, 182 and 185 from the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Twycross, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st February 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

Before my noble friend sits down, would she care to spare a few words on Amendment 222?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe I have just addressed Amendment 222. We are supportive of the establishment of regional mutual banks in the United Kingdom, but they are currently still establishing themselves and are not yet trading. So it is a little too early for us to report on the current regime and any possible limitations of it for regional mutual banks.

Financial Services

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Wednesday 11th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that all financial services are accessible and inclusive, including ATMs and point of sale terminals.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government work closely with regulators, industry and consumer groups to promote financial inclusion. We are currently legislating to protect access to cash and many firms offer services to make everyday banking and payment interfaces, including ATMs and point-of-sale terminals, more accessible for consumers. Importantly, all service providers, including banks and building societies, are bound under the Equality Act 2010 to make reasonable adjustments where necessary in the way they deliver their services.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, if we are to ensure financial inclusion, we need not just to have such financial services and products but to ensure that those services and products are accessible. Does my noble friend agree that the worrying rise in inaccessible point-of-sale terminals and card payment machines—for example, accessible keyboards being replaced with inaccessible flat screens—marks three things: a prima facie breach of equalities legislation, a complete failure of inclusion by design, and just bad business?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right that it is really important that innovation aid inclusion, rather than hinder it. I was really pleased to hear about the work the Royal National Institute of Blind People has done with manufacturers to create an accessible solution for card payments, and that these devices are starting to appear in some shops. That is excellent work that we would like to see replicated to ensure that the aims he rightly referred to are met.

Financial Inclusion in England

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Wednesday 30th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to increase financial inclusion in England.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

The Government want to ensure that people, regardless of their background or income, have access to useful and affordable financial products and services. To increase financial inclusion, the Government work closely with regulators, industry and consumer groups. Since 2019, we have allocated £100 million of funding from dormant assets towards this. The Government are also promoting financial inclusion through the Financial Services and Markets Bill, for example by introducing legislation to protect access to cash.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, when it comes to financial inclusion, cash still matters materially to millions. Would my noble friend agree that it is not just about access to cash? Acceptance of cash is equally important. Further, as we move increasingly towards digital, would she agree that it is time for the Government to undertake an access to digital payments review to ensure financial inclusion for all?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, our approach is that accepting cash is a decision for the firms involved. We have taken action to ensure that people can access cash through ATMs and elsewhere. My noble friend also makes an important point about digital inclusion and digital payments. We are looking at how we can promote that alongside financial inclusion in our work through the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum and other avenues.

Financial Inclusion

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to improve financial inclusion in the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government want to ensure that people, regardless of their background or income, have access to useful, affordable financial products and services. To tackle financial exclusion, the Government convene the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum, which brings together Ministers, regulators, industry and the third sector to provide leadership and promote collaboration. Since 2019, the Government have allocated £100 million of dormant assets funding to support Fair4All Finance’s work to improve access to affordable credit.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that financial inclusion brings not just economic benefits to the individual but economic, social and psychological benefits to all of us? To that end, does she agree that it is high time that we revisit the question of a “have regard to” financial inclusion duty for the FCA?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with the sentiments expressed by my noble friend about the importance of financial inclusion. The Government recognise that there has been strong interest in the proposal for the FCA to be given a separate “have regard to” financial inclusion duty. However, at present the Government’s position remains that the FCA’s existing objectives and regulatory principles are already well aligned with the objectives of financial inclusion. We do not believe that a separate “have regard to” financial inclusion duty would necessarily lead to a different approach or tangible improvements over the current arrangements with regard to the aim that we all want to see: greater financial inclusion and less exclusion.

UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Report stage
Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I join my noble friend Lady Noakes in applauding Amendment 6 in the name of my noble friend Lord Holmes as a gallant attempt at defining additionality, although I dare say another Peer might draft it differently.

I want to make a more general point about additionality before coming on to the specifics of each amendment in this group. Additionality is a key principle underpinning the bank, and it is something that the Government take very seriously. That is demonstrated by the fact that additionality is one of the bank’s core investment principles, as set out in its framework document and strategic plan. However, following legal advice, the principle is not included in the Bill as there is no single agreed definition of additionality in a financial context that we could appropriately include in the Bill. Approaches to assessing additionality are developing over time and we would not want to stymie that development by creating a statutory definition of additionality at this stage.

While the term “additionality” has been included in previous legislation—for example, the Dormant Assets Act 2022 and the National Lottery Act 2006—additionality in those contexts had a different meaning: of funding projects or activities that the Government would not have otherwise funded. Assessing private sector additionality is more complex because it involves more actors and varied forms of financing. Each deal will have a particular set of circumstances that will indicate the amount of additionality that the bank is bringing. For the bank, as part of that, additionality means ensuring that it both crowds in private finance through its investments and avoids crowding out the market by providing finance that could have come from the private sector.

The bank has set out its approach to assessing and measuring these concepts of additionality in its strategic plan, which was published at the end of June. Currently the bank will assess additionality on a case-by-case basis, assessing the evidence as part of due diligence and monitoring that through a key performance indicator on the levels of private sector finance that it has crowded in. This is a measure commonly used by other organisations such as the OECD.

Crowding out is best assessed through evaluations and medium-term assessments of whether the portfolio of investments has led to crowding out in a particular sector. The bank is developing its thinking on how it will monitor and evaluate its work at both deal and portfolio level, including setting up an independent evaluation.

Further to this, additionality is implicitly covered in the Subsidy Control Act 2022, which of course applies to any subsidies the bank gives. Schedule 1D states:

“Subsidies should not normally compensate for the costs the beneficiary would have funded in the absence of any subsidy.”


Given the protections of the Subsidy Control Act 2022 and the regulatory regime, the difficulty in accurately defining additionality in the Bill, the work the bank is already doing on additionality and, finally, our amendment to the review, I hope my noble friend Lord Holmes will feel able to withdraw his amendment. I must say to my noble friend that the Government do not intend to bring forward any amendments at Third Reading, so I must disappoint him on that front. I should also say that to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, in relation to the previous group, if I was not clear on that front.

The amendment in my name to Clause 9, on the statutory review, will ensure that the review of the bank will measure its success in encouraging additional investment. The drafting of the amendment is based on the reference to additionality in the framework document. I should like to provide reassurance that, given that the review will cover crowding in, it necessarily includes the question of whether crowding in did not happen, with the attendant risk of crowding out. This is because additionality is designed to measure genuine additional private finance—in other words, investment that would not have happened otherwise. I would fully expect the independent review to address the question of crowding out under the terms of this drafting.

The bank could act as the sole financer of a private project if it meets the bank’s investment principles and objectives, but it is highly unlikely that the bank, as the sole financer of a private project, would crowd out private investment, as the bank would be the sole investor in very immature or nascent financial markets for a technology only if no other investors were willing to support the project.

The bank’s initial assessment of the technologies, sectors and markets it plans to engage in, as published in its strategic plan, will allow it to focus its investment in areas with a limited risk of crowding out. This will continue to be developed and reviewed. In cases where the bank would act as the sole financer of a private project, it would expect to have a transformational impact on the market and for the market to be able to attract private capital over the medium to long term. This in part speaks to the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about the bank being able to operate along the risk spectrum, as it were, rather than seeking to invest solely in perhaps lower-risk or less innovative projects, given the other demands that it has: making a return on its investments and becoming self-funding.

Given this, I am grateful to my noble friend for her commitment not to move her amendment when it is reached. I hope that, in future, my best efforts produce more than a quarter of a loaf.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this group, and particularly my noble friend Lady Noakes for bringing forward Amendment 24. I shall summarise what the Minister said: that additionality is pretty much impossible to define, but the bank will definitely do it—so that is good. It is unfortunate that we cannot have that in the drafting of the Bill given that, as I said in opening the group, this is the raison d’être of the bank: its only ultimate purpose is additionality. As other noble Lords have said, not having this could lead to less rather than more, and taxpayers’ money being put to that purpose.

It is desperately disappointing that we cannot have additionality in the Bill. I will withdraw my amendment but, in doing so, I gently, politely and respectfully request that my noble friend the Minister considers not moving government Amendment 23 and working to meld it with my noble friend’s Amendment 24 to come up with something that actually covers both crowding out and crowding in. Certainly, as drafted, government Amendment 23 does not do this. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 6.

Financial Conduct Authority: Financial Inclusion

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Tuesday 22nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to require the Financial Conduct Authority to have regard to financial inclusion.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Financial inclusion is a priority for this Government. Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Financial Conduct Authority already work closely to meet the Government’s aims on tackling financial exclusion. As outlined in the future regulatory framework review consultation that was published in November 2021, the FCA’s current and ongoing initiatives to improve financial inclusion demonstrate that it can already effectively support the Government’s financial inclusion agenda through its existing operational objectives and regulatory principles.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, financial exclusion has dogged this nation for decades. It is a personal tragedy for individuals and holds individuals, communities and businesses back. Does my noble friend not agree that with a concerted effort from HMT, a “have regard” duty for the FCA and the involvement of the Bank of England and all financial services firms, we could truly have an economy and a society that worked for everybody and were truly financially inclusive?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

As I am sure my noble friend knows, since 2019 the Government have chaired the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum, which brings together the Government, the FCA, industry and consumer groups to deliver on the aims that he has set out. We are aware that there have been responses to the recent future regulatory framework review on the question of a “have regard” duty to financial inclusion. The Government are considering all the responses to that consultation and will set out their response in due course.

Cash Infrastructure

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have (1) to designate the United Kingdom’s cash infrastructure as critical national infrastructure, and (2) to introduce a universal service obligation for the provision of cash.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, designation of the United Kingdom’s critical national infrastructure is sensitive and, as such, not made public. However, the Government have committed to legislating to protect access to cash and to ensuring that the UK’s cash infrastructure is sustainable in the long term. On 1 July, the Government published a consultation which sets out proposals for new laws that seek to ensure that people need to travel only a reasonable distance to pay in or take out cash.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the future of financial services is digital, and that that future must be inclusive, accessible and empowering? At least until that future arrives, cash still matters materially to millions.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. In fact, cash remains the second-most used payment form in this country. That is exactly why we have made this commitment to legislate and launch the consultation on our specific proposals, which we look forward to taking forward.

Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Tax Strategy

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Tuesday 6th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, be it net zero or other overriding objectives, we will be best served by a digital tax system which is inclusive, underpinned through distributed digital ID, and not only revenue generating but fundamentally changing for the better the very social contract within which we all operate?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend’s point. That is why, last July, the Government published their 10-year vision for delivering an effective and modern tax system—the tax administration strategy. If any noble Lords want to read that exciting document, it is on GOV.UK. The strategy includes an extension to making tax digital, intended as the first phase of a modern, digital tax service.

Build Back Better Business Council

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am aware of the work of the alliance, thanks to the noble Lord bringing it to my attention in previous Questions. I have also highlighted it to a range of government departments, so that they can look at the work that it is doing and integrate it into their own.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. Does my noble friend agree that, when it comes to build back better and the SDGs related to financial well-being, fintech has a key role to play? Further, does she agree that the Government will seriously consider the recommendations of the fintech strategic review being published tomorrow and the amendments to the Financial Services Bill that relate to promoting financial inclusion?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I absolutely agree about the important role of fintech and I have enjoyed the debates on the Financial Services Bill in Committee so far, covering both financial inclusion and fintech. I have not seen the strategic review yet, as it is out tomorrow, but I am sure that it will do an excellent job and that the Government will consider its recommendations carefully.

Economic Outlook and Furlough Scheme Changes

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

The noble Lord is right that the design of the scheme is about keeping a connection between an employee and an employer during lockdown so that they can return to that job afterwards. That is why we have set out a careful process for unwinding the scheme so that, from August, employers will need to begin to contribute costs, scaling up from national insurance and pension contributions to 10% and then 20% of the wages covered.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Non-Afl) [V]]

The Government’s investment in the furlough scheme has benefited millions across the country. Does the Minister agree that the way to ensure that we get maximum benefit from that investment is to reduce the two-metre rule to one metre, to stop the ridiculous quarantine rule currently in place, and urgently to consider establishing a sovereign wealth fund to invest in businesses that need it, with the Government taking a share, which would benefit both government finances and the long-term security of those businesses?

[Baroness Penn]

The noble Lord will be aware of my previous answer on the two-metre rule. In our road map for reopening the economy, we have been able to take important steps forward—for example, the reopening of non-essential retail this Monday. We encourage people across the country to be aware that, when we take such steps to reopen, it is then safe to go out and support their local high street and their local economy.

Inheritance Tax

Debate between Baroness Penn and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Wednesday 20th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

My Lords, under the definition of businesses, certain criteria must be met in order to qualify for the exemption. It is restricted to trading businesses which provide goods and services and is not available to those dealing either wholly or mainly with securities, stocks, shares or land.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that we are well overdue for a transformation of our tax system across the piece? We need a public debate led by the Government on this. Only after that could we truly say who should pay and how they should pay it. Will she take this suggestion back to the department and then report to the House how such a public discourse could be undertaken?

[Baroness Penn]

Changes have been made to inheritance tax in recent years; notably, that from 2017, implementation of the residential non-rateable band, which allows families who have built up an asset, usually the family home, to pass it on to their direct descendants. As I said in a previous answer, we keep the tax system under review; for example, we have considered and continue to consider carefully reports from the Office of Tax Simplification.