Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 8th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the reason for this amendment but am not sure that it is appropriate, because it is the Office for Students that would do the “musting”—if I can call it that—but the arrangements have to come from the higher education providers, which are dealt with by new paragraphs (a) and (b). The OfS finds out exactly what is going on and reports it. That may put pressure on individual providers to get along with arrangements. You cannot facilitate an arrangement unless the people wanting to make it are willing. There is also the problem with time when it comes to facilitating, encouraging or promoting awareness. In due course, the thing will become known, but the amendment is saying it must be done all the time—it is a continuing obligation. In the circumstances of this clause, “may” is the better word for this part of the arrangement.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve]

My Lords, this is quite a complicated matter for higher education providers—as I have learned to call them—as the reasons why students come to a halt on their journey are very varied. Sometimes, they are not really committed to continuing, sometimes they are not really able to continue on the course, and sometimes there is another course with slightly different requirements to which they would be very well suited. It has to be a very hands-on process, and does not always go successfully, but nor would it even with this amendment.

One has to be very careful. In my experience, academic staff and the student counselling services have a great deal to do when an individual student hits one of these vicissitudes, and the process is not always successful. But we should also remember that in countries where they ostensibly have more of a credit transfer system than we have ever managed to achieve here, you cannot say, “Oh, I am not really enjoying my course here; I would prefer to be on that course there”. The process will be extremely difficult and very expensive for the institutions. On balance, “must” facilitate may not, for those additional reasons, be quite the verb that we want here.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I mentioned this amendment in an earlier group. However, because of the way these things are structured, I did not get an opportunity to reply to the Minister. This is a vital matter. I cannot see why the Office for Students, with no particular qualification in relation to research, should be solely responsible for the decision to award research degrees.

The Minister indicated that there is a general power for the Secretary of State to order co-operation and so on. In the Bill the power to make a joint decision is very restricted indeed and would not apply in this connection to the power of the Office for Students to award research degrees. It certainly would not enable UKRI to take part in that.

I can see that there may be a difficulty about research students. I do not mind too much about that. It seems to me that that is also a question about research, but it may be that it is very routine and therefore the Office for Students would need to be involved in that. But giving the Office for Students the power to award a research degree power to a higher education provider while there is a body standing by—created by the Bill, with all the expertise of research—but not taking part at all, does not make any sense. I say this with the greatest possible respect.

The Minister suggested that it might work against the interests that were being talked about but I really cannot see why these research degree-awarding powers should be a matter for the Office for Students alone. I can see that it may have a legitimate interest in the provider as a whole but it certainly does not have the full expertise of research that UKRI can give. This seems to be an ideal situation for joint decision-making. I beg to move.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I add my support to the amendment. It seems extraordinary to imagine the Office for Students unilaterally making a decision that an institution should have the power to award research degrees. Surely it is quite essential that a research organisation—particularly, in this case, UKRI—should be heavily involved. Equally, I do not think that UKRI can make the decision alone because it relates also to the capacity of university departments to receive and look after research students.