Higher Education and Research Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mair (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 482C, 490A, 495C and 495D, to which I have added my name, and support what has been said by my noble friends Lady Brown of Cambridge and Lord Broers.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred earlier to the industrial strategy. This is highly relevant to the Bill and to Innovate UK. The industrial strategy has 10 pillars. The first is:

“Investing in science, research and innovation”.


The Green Paper clearly acknowledges the serious problem we have in the UK with commercialising our outstanding science. It states that,

“historically, we have not been as successful at commercialisation and development as we have been at basic research … We have already taken action to address the UK’s … relative weakness in commercialisation, through the establishment of new, more industrially focused institutions such as Innovate UK”.

This group of amendments addresses the freedom of Innovate UK within UKRI to operate successfully and with full autonomy—otherwise there is a danger that it will not be as effective as it should be. I fully support the point made by my noble friend Lady Brown of Cambridge. Paragraph 16(1) of Schedule 9 states:

“UKRI may do anything which appears to it to be necessary or expedient for the purpose of, or in connection with, the exercise of its functions”.


However, paragraph 16(3) states that UKRI may not,

“form, participate in forming or invest in a company, partnership or other similar form of organisation”,

except,

“with the consent of the Secretary of State”.

That seems unnecessarily restrictive on Innovate UK. It should not have to obtain the consent of the Secretary of State whenever it wishes to make an investment in a company, partnership or similar organisation. A very similar point was made earlier by my noble friend Lord Oxburgh in relation to forming joint ventures. Innovate UK should have the freedom and flexibility to invest as necessary to promote research and innovation to the greatest economic benefit of the UK—although, clearly, financial limits should be set periodically by the Secretary of State. That is the purpose of our Amendment 482C.

The world is changing very rapidly and it is therefore vital for the economy to have a high level of UK R&D investment in science and engineering. The UK must continue to be world leading in innovation. We cannot afford to slip behind, and UKRI must be made to work really effectively. Innovate UK, with its strong business-facing focus, along with the science and engineering community, must therefore be allowed to continue to play a key role in promoting research and innovation. Innovation is an inherently risky process with an uncertain outcome. To be really effective, Innovate UK must be allowed to promote high-risk and disruptive innovation.

This House’s Committee on Science and Technology, chaired by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and of which I am a member, heard in evidence that many businesses have concerns about the status of Innovate UK in the proposed UKRI, especially in relation to risk and the backing of new companies. Innovate UK must be allowed to invest in commercial arrangements, including companies or partnerships, if it is to be fully effective in promoting innovation and commercialising research—and this should be in the Bill.

Innovate UK operates in a quite different way from a research council, so I urge the Minister to reflect on and give careful consideration to this matter, and to ensure that the proposed structure of UKRI is not unnecessarily restrictive on the crucial activities of Innovate UK.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, it is perhaps important to point out that Innovate UK is to be henceforth merely a committee of UKRI. The scope of its work is set out in Clause 90(1), which states:

“UKRI must arrange for Innovate UK to exercise such functions of UKRI as UKRI may determine for the purpose of increasing economic growth in the United Kingdom”.


So I do not think that there is any sense in which UKRI is autonomous. Innovate UK will have no employees of its own—they will all be employees of UKRI—and it certainly will not be autonomous in any sense that I can understand. The question may be whether the result that these amendments are aiming at can be attained only by taking Innovate UK out of UKRI and giving it a separate status. There may be disadvantages in that as well, but, as presently set out in the Bill, Innovate UK is a mere committee of UKRI—and that is not a particularly elevated status. In many aspects—not all, because I have just referred to a special aspect in the clause that I mentioned—it is being treated pretty much as a part of UKRI.

[Baroness Neville-Jones (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 482C, 495C and 495D. I note what has just been said about the committee status of Innovate UK, and many noble Lords—I include myself—do not regard that as a satisfactory way of running things. We would much prefer it to be a separate entity. If the Government are unable somehow to strengthen the role of Innovate UK within the present structure that they have chosen, there will be a real problem that we will have to tackle on Report.

The noble Lord, Lord Mair, said many of the things that I wanted to say, but much more eloquently. He made the absolutely vital point that the functioning of Innovate UK is crucial to the attainment of the Government’s industrial strategy. If that is the case, it will need the powers to enable it to do that. The purpose of Amendment 495C is to give Innovate UK the right initiative that is needed if it is to achieve its objective. Amendment 495D emphasises the central role of Innovate UK in promoting the commercialisation of research. It has to be able to enter into business relationships which underpin that; thus we come back to the problem that has been identified.

The Minister’s remarks will obviously be very important here. If the language is not right, perhaps it can be fixed, but this is an issue of fundamental importance on which I would like to hear what the Minister has to say.

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Moved by

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

492: Clause 89, page 57, line 13, after “scientist” insert “, or other person whose knowledge or experience is important to the operation of that Council,”

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, this is a short but important point. Schedule 9 paragraph 8(1) states:

“UKRI may … appoint employees, and … make such other arrangements for the staffing of UKRI as it considers appropriate.


Sub-paragraph (2) states:

“The terms and conditions of appointment as employees are to be determined by UKRI with the approval of the Secretary of State”.


That is the general provision. However, there is an extraordinary provision in Clause 89. After listing the research councils—it is interesting that the arts and humanities are separate although the arts include humanities, although that does not matter too much—subsection (2) states:

“Arrangements under this section may, in particular, provide for the exercise by the Council concerned of UKRI’s functions under paragraph 8(1) and (2) of Schedule 9”—


those are the paragraphs I have just read—

“in relation to relevant specialist employees”.

In other words, the council is going to get, possibly, a chance to make arrangements in regard to relevant specialist employees. Who are these?

“A ‘relevant specialist employee’, in relation to a Council, means a researcher or scientist employed by UKRI to work in the field of activity of that Council”.


It is quite obvious that the term “scientist” is fairly ambiguous. For example, would it include a specialist doctor working for the MRC?

The other obvious question is whether this applies to technicians in laboratories. Is a technician a scientist? I would think they certainly are, but it cannot be taken as a certainty that the construction of the term “scientist” in this Bill would necessarily include a technician because sometimes we distinguish between them in the terminology. So far as researchers are concerned it is, vague in the extreme. Is a person who organises research but does not do any himself or herself qualify as a researcher? I thought that there must be some principle behind the selection of the terms “researcher” and “scientist”, and that is what my amendment ventures to suggest. It provides that, for a specialist employee,

“after ‘scientist’ insert ‘, or other person whose knowledge or experience is important to the operation of that Council”.

That is the only way to avoid ambiguity.

I have the impression from my discussions with the department that the general view is much in accordance with mine, but the officials seem to think that the terms “scientist” and “researcher” would include them all. I would like to say that they do not, but it is certainly not clear at all and I see no reason why it should not be. The easiest way to put it clearly is not to set out a list of all the people we can think of, because there would quite a number; rather, it is to set out the principle on which the relevant specialist employee as a characteristic is determined. That is what I have tried to do in my amendment, and I am happy to seek a better formulation if the Minister wishes it. I raised this point when I wrote to my noble friend’s predecessor and to the Minister in the Commons. I hope that we might be able to get an answer to this question tonight and I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this is an interesting amendment and it has been well trailed since the noble and learned Lord made it clear in a couple of our Committee sittings that he intended to speak on this issue. We are glad finally to get the benefit of his words expressing concern about the current drafting and the need to unpick it. I think the Minister will be at a slight disadvantage because we have been making this point throughout the six days of our deliberations in Committee. We have tried to draw the attention of the noble Viscount to the fact that wherever there is an opportunity, in our view, for the Bill to inflect a sensibility within the structures and operations of the various bodies being established under the new architecture, towards an inclusive way of treating those employed within these structures, it has always been rebuffed. That might be too strong a word, but although it has been played back to us as something the noble Viscount would think about, we have not even managed to get him to reflect on it.

So the Minister is not able to take responsibility for the omissions of the earlier sittings of the Committee, but this is a great opportunity to pick up the point. Given that he has come from a department which must have responsibility for employees—indeed, in his last outing he was dealing with trade union reform and related issues—he will be well aware of the sensitivities that these matters can give rise to. He might want to reflect on the need to respond positively to the noble and learned Lord, who has made such a fine point.

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[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

If I thought I had received an answer I would be happy to do so, but surely we need to defend these people. I quite understand that this will carry on and I hope it will, but I should like to know what it is that will carry on.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

To quickly interject, I will look at the issue my noble and learned friend raises. As the noble Lord opposite said, I will reflect further on the matter and write to my noble and learned friend.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I am grateful for that. I am just sorry that the reflection has not taken place between the time I raised the issue and now, but there we are. We cannot do anything about it.

My noble friend mentioned a letter. I was at a meeting last week with a number of people interested in the Bill and its progress. They mentioned the letters referred to in Hansard. They asked where they could see them. I was not certain, but I assume they are in the Library.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I understand that they are.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I am persuaded to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 492 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

509: Clause 106, page 64, line 16, at end insert—
“( ) Where a decision to be made by the OfS or UKRI relates to—(a) the power to award research degrees; or(b) research students;the OfS and UKRI must make the decision jointly.”

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I mentioned this amendment in an earlier group. However, because of the way these things are structured, I did not get an opportunity to reply to the Minister. This is a vital matter. I cannot see why the Office for Students, with no particular qualification in relation to research, should be solely responsible for the decision to award research degrees.

The Minister indicated that there is a general power for the Secretary of State to order co-operation and so on. In the Bill the power to make a joint decision is very restricted indeed and would not apply in this connection to the power of the Office for Students to award research degrees. It certainly would not enable UKRI to take part in that.

I can see that there may be a difficulty about research students. I do not mind too much about that. It seems to me that that is also a question about research, but it may be that it is very routine and therefore the Office for Students would need to be involved in that. But giving the Office for Students the power to award a research degree power to a higher education provider while there is a body standing by—created by the Bill, with all the expertise of research—but not taking part at all, does not make any sense. I say this with the greatest possible respect.

The Minister suggested that it might work against the interests that were being talked about but I really cannot see why these research degree-awarding powers should be a matter for the Office for Students alone. I can see that it may have a legitimate interest in the provider as a whole but it certainly does not have the full expertise of research that UKRI can give. This seems to be an ideal situation for joint decision-making. I beg to move.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I add my support to the amendment. It seems extraordinary to imagine the Office for Students unilaterally making a decision that an institution should have the power to award research degrees. Surely it is quite essential that a research organisation—particularly, in this case, UKRI—should be heavily involved. Equally, I do not think that UKRI can make the decision alone because it relates also to the capacity of university departments to receive and look after research students.

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[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay for raising this important matter. I hope that I do better in response to this amendment than I did in response to his earlier amendment. It is absolutely right that UKRI and the OfS should work together in relation to research students and research degree-awarding powers.

Let me first reassure noble Lords that, while the responsibility for all degree- awarding powers will sit with the OfS, UKRI will play an active role in matters relating to research degree-awarding powers. It will be instrumental in developing the criteria and process by which applicants for these powers are assessed. For example, it will work with the OfS to identify suitable expert scrutinisers of RDAP applications. This collaboration will safeguard standards and ensure that assessors with the appropriate skills are core in decision-making. Likewise, on research students the OfS will be the regulator for all students, including postgraduate students, but UKRI will of course work with it when appropriate to provide expert advice in relation to postgraduate students.

As an example, as I said previously in this debate, each year thousands of research students in the UK are supported by research council funding. Putting a legislative requirement on the OfS and UKRI to make such funding decisions jointly would not add value; it would add only bureaucracy. However, having both organisations working together to develop a strategy that ensures that the pipeline for good research students is healthy would add value. The current legal provisions, subsequent government guidance and a healthy co-operative culture within the organisation will ensure that this happens. As the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, mentioned earlier, one cannot sledgehammer a culture into shape between two organisations through legislation. That is why the joint working provision in the Bill has been drafted to be permissive. It will be a key aspect of UKRI and the OfS’s missions to co-operate with each other.

The Government will issue guidance to both organisations that will set out where we expect them to work together. There will be a memorandum of understanding between UKRI and the OfS to set out the detail. The executive teams and the boards will be responsible for ensuring that this important joint working is achieved. The advert for the UKRI board includes the duty of,

“ensuring strong, collaborative relationships are put in place to aid joint working with the Office for Students, the devolved HE funding bodies and other key partners”.

I recognise the strength of feeling on this matter and the Government have listened carefully to the issue raised by noble Lords here today. It is with the assurances that I have given that I ask my noble and learned friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Yes, I certainly propose to withdraw the amendment now, but this is an extremely important point and I do not really think that government guidance can take the place of an Act of Parliament. The idea of granting research degree-awarding powers is an important matter for the national interest. I do not think that it can be left to guidance from the Minister, however wise that guidance may be. It is the responsibility of Parliament to set the structures under which that should happen. I cannot see at the moment how it can be right that the responsibility for that should be in the Office for Students when, standing alongside it in the administration, is UKRI, with all the technical qualifications for research which that implies. I will withdraw the amendment with happiness but in the hope that we can progress this matter further before we have the next session on the Bill. In the meantime, and with regard to the time, I am glad to finish.

Amendment 509 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Deech (CB)]

I shall speak to this amendment although my name is not on it. As we got to the end of this Committee stage, this group of amendments struck me as a chance to give Parliament more oversight into fleshing out the Bill. The Bill—and now we are nearly at the end—is not much more than a framework, albeit a very heavy framework, on which later policy is to be hung. We have no detail on the metrics in the teaching excellence framework or the detailed criteria that the Office for Students may use to establish or abolish universities. It is not clear how a lot of this Bill will work in practice. Over and over again we have been asked to take matters on trust and have been told that details will follow. We do not know how much of a light touch or not the Secretary of State will be using in guidance to the UKRI and the OfS. We do not know what providers will do to the market or how the status of the sector will hold up. We do not know how much there will be a fracture between teaching and research to the detriment of both. Now that we have reached the end of the Committee with so many gaps in the Bill, can the Minister assure us that there will be some process of post-legislative scrutiny to ensure that this experiment is working? I beg to move.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I take this opportunity simply to congratulate the Minister on having taken over this intricate and important part of the Bill. He has discharged his responsibilities with great skill.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, as this is the last group of amendments, most of which were not moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I shall respond briefly and particularly take note of the general comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I shall make a short concluding comment. If there are matters in this group of amendments that require some writing, I will write to all noble Lords and put a copy of such letters in the Library of the House.

I shall make some concluding comments about this quite long Committee stage. I record my appreciation of the whole Committee and of all noble Lords who have taken part in all the debates for the quality and constructive nature of the discussions we have been having in the past few weeks. I am very pleased that noble Lords recognise that Committee stage is about discussing the Bill, probing the detail and, importantly, giving all sides an opportunity to listen to other noble Lords’ points of view. As a result, noble Lords have not felt the need to divide the Committee beyond the first amendment on the first day. For that, I am grateful.

Now we have some time before the Bill enters its Report stage. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has challenged me on the meaning of different verbs used on occasion by me on and around the word “reflect”. I hope I can leave a smile on his face—or perhaps not—by saying that I am actively working with my honourable friend in the other place, Jo Johnson, to reflect on these discussions and consider the best way forward. On a serious note, I hope the noble Lord and the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Mendelsohn, realise that I have given much warmer words than that at certain points. In that spirit, I want to be sure that he understands that we are looking very carefully at Hansard and reflecting generally on all the debates. I am looking forward to Report. In the meantime, I would just say that I have very much appreciated the debates and look forward to future ones.