Monday 30th January 2017
(7 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberHigher Education and Research Act 2017 View all Higher Education and Research Act 2017 Debates Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 76-VII(a) Amendment for Committee, supplementary to the seventh marshalled list (PDF, 53KB) - (27 Jan 2017)
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, last year I shared a platform with the chief executive of Innovate UK at the International Festival for Business in Liverpool. We have heard from my noble friend Lord Mair about the great work it is doing and how important it is for our economy to encourage innovation and the translation of research from universities to business. Is it not ironic that here we have this Bill about which our greatest worry is its threat to autonomy—the autonomy of our universities, of our research institutions and, now, of Innovate UK? We cannot in any way stifle Innovate UK’s work or its ability to partner with or have joint ventures with organisations or to be innovative in itself. We cannot spoil Innovate UK being innovative. I urge the Government to listen to the amendment in the name of my noble friends Lady Brown, Lord Mair and Lord Broers and enable Innovate UK to be innovative itself.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con)
My Lords, I will begin by saying that I agree 100% with the principles behind many of the amendments in this group. It is absolutely right that Innovate UK should have as much autonomy as possible over all matters related to its remit and mission. We are fully agreed on that. However, I disagree with my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones. I fundamentally believe that Innovate UK will be better off within UKRI and that bringing together into one organisation research and the translation of research will create a much stronger one. I also feel that, when it comes to negotiating budgets with the Treasury and the like, again Innovate UK will be much better off within UKRI than if it were a separate body.
Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, I am not in fact advocating that Innovate UK should be separate—that battle is over. But, if the Government are going to construct the structure that they now wish, my point is that the structure must enable Innovate UK to do its job. I do not think that the present draft allows that to happen.
Lord Prior of Brampton
I thank my noble friend for that.
Turning to how autonomous and free Innovate UK is, I fully agree it is important that it is able to provide a broad range of financial support, including the sorts of commercial activity listed in the amendments. I assure noble Lords that paragraph 16 of Schedule 9, which provides detail on UKRI’s supplementary powers, does permit UKRI and its councils to make such investments, but with the consent of the Secretary of State. This is not an unreasonable or overbearing condition. It is a necessary one to comply with cross-government rules set out by the Treasury in Managing Public Money. It is also not a change to current practice—such permissions are already required. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, mentioned catapults, but as things are set up, they do require consent from the Secretary of State.
It would not be responsible to cut out ministerial oversight entirely, particularly with regard to commercial activity that potentially carries a significant level of financial and/or reputational risk. Absolutely nothing in the Bill curtails the powers of Innovate UK to enter into joint ventures or investments in the way that it does at the moment. I agree fully with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Mair, that commercialising our science, one of the 10 pillars in the industrial strategy, is critical to improving productivity in the UK more generally. The Government fully understand it is important that UKRI has flexibility in this regard. The Secretary of State will specify conditions for such activities, below which UKRI can act without referring back to its sponsor department.
I turn now to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn. I cannot agree with Amendment 495E, which would risk taking the emphasis away from Innovate UK’s mission to support businesses by giving it further duties that are not reflected in its current charter. However, I find myself in complete agreement with the sentiment behind Amendment 495F. Although the Government strongly believe that the current drafting protects Innovate UK’s business-facing focus, let me assure noble Lords that we will carefully reflect on the comments made in this debate.
On Amendment 495G, as a council of UKRI, Innovate UK will continue to undertake detailed evaluation of the economic impact of its business-led innovation projects. It is right that the organisation is given a degree of flexibility to determine how it reports on its activities, rather than entrenching such detail in the Bill. Let me reassure the House that it is not the Government’s intention to place artificial and unjustified limits on what commercial activity UKRI and Innovate UK may undertake. The Government’s position is very clear that Innovate UK must retain its business-facing focus. I hope that with the assurances I have given noble Lords this evening, the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Brown of Cambridge
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his detailed response and other noble Lords who have contributed fully to the debate. I am pleased that the Minister agrees with the principle behind many of these amendments—I hope I have understood him correctly this time—particularly the need for autonomy for Innovate UK and for it to be able to deliver a broad and innovative range of financial support and commercial activities.
The Minister mentioned that the Secretary of State would be able to specify conditions within which UKRI can act, which is specifically indicated in one of the amendments. Perhaps he can write to us with more information about that as it may further allay some of the concerns.
The issue of the autonomy of Innovate UK, and the opportunity and need to have an enlarged brief to deliver the economic growth which we are all keen to see from our science base, are so important that we would like to hear more about the Government’s thoughts in this area. It is an issue to which we may wish to return on Report. However, in the context of the strong reassurance that we have had on this point, and that we will hear more, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, I shall speak to our amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, has made a very good case. The long and the short of how we see this is that we do not think it was a very good idea in the first place and time has passed on. Many of the comments that have been made will find an echo in our thoughts.
It is worth returning to the original Nurse review. The report states:
“In relation to Innovate UK, as stated earlier, the current delivery landscape is too complex and there should be a smoother pathway to more applied research. Integrating Innovate UK into the Research UK structure alongside the Research Councils could help such issues to be addressed However, Innovate UK has a different customer base as well as differences in delivery mechanisms, which Government needs to bear in mind in considering such an approach and which this review, according to its remit, has not looked at in depth”.
The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, made exactly that point: what evaluations were made when it went in?
I would suggest that both its target audience and the mechanisms that Innovate UK uses are so dramatically different that it is unlikely to be able to perform such an effective function within the context of UKRI. I think that it would be a terrible misfortune if Innovate UK, which has proved itself over some years to be a very effective body doing great things, were to come into UKRI with its current framework. That would not just be restrictive but could possibly be quite damaging for an institution that is following a good path.
I also think that this is a policy that was designed for a pre-Brexit world. In a post-Brexit world—which we are not in at the moment—we know that we are going to have to rely on research an awful lot more, and a great deal will be required of it. I cannot imagine that in such a situation we would ever put one of our most significant levers into this sort of environment; we would leave it to work independently. With the industrial strategy having now been published, it is absolutely clear that there is a massive hole in the delivery of its research objectives that would have been filled by Innovate UK. That is a mistake that the Government would be wise to take note of.
By the way, it is important to understand that Nurse himself recommended:
“At the very least, the Chief Executives of HEFCE and Innovate UK should be represented, on the Executive Committee of Research UK”,
or UKRI. And that was probably a very measured judgment.
My final very brief point is in relation to what it is necessary to do to make the best of our university sector and to be able to commercialise at both ends of the spectrum via big company investments and tracking what research is being done as well as smaller companies emerging as the result of venture capital. An awful lot is going on in this area. Recently I spent time with some of the companies at Cambridge Enterprise Limited. Innovate UK is not the only solution that is required, and I think that it would be a colossal mistake to expect UKRI to perform that role and to forget the other things we may need to do. To restrict UKRI in that situation has the potential to do great harm to the long-term needs of our country, especially in an environment where we need an effective industrial strategy.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, we could debate this issue for two or three hours, but we must restrain ourselves. I turn first to the two points raised by my noble friend Lord Willetts. I will indeed have to write to him about the powers the Secretary of State will be planning to delegate to Innovate UK. In a way that also answers his second question because he referred to “old think”, and indeed some of that could be construed in this Bill when comparing it with the requirements of the industrial strategy. But if the delegation to UKRI and Innovate UK from the Secretary of State is right, I think it will be perfectly possible to reconcile that with the industrial strategy.
I would actually take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, because I think that Brexit has made the coming together of Innovate UK with the research councils within UKRI even more necessary, but I agree that Innovate UK is only a part of the answer. We have to have a competitive fiscal regime, long-term risk capital and a well-trained technical workforce among many other things. Innovate UK on its own is not going to shift the productivity dial for the country, although we believe that it has an important part to play.
The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked about an assessment of Innovate UK. A detailed business plan was made, although I am afraid that I cannot remember when it was published. I shall certainly endeavour to send her a copy of that report. The fact is that this is more of a judgment than something which can be proved with spreadsheets and the like. I think that the right judgment is to bring innovation together with research; that is the right thing to do because the reality is that one of our weaknesses, as other noble Lords have mentioned, is that we have a fantastic research base but have not been able to take maximum commercial advantage of it. That is a space which Innovate UK has filled and will continue to do so.
The extra investment being made by the Government in UKRI is a clear vote of confidence, and our support for the central role of Innovate UK in delivering our future knowledge economy will include a substantial increase in grant funding. The Bill seeks to name Innovate UK in legislation for the first time. It will retain its own individual funding stream and grow its support for business-led technology and innovation as a key part of the industrial strategy. I think it is worth quoting Ruth McKernan, the chief executive of Innovate UK:
“The establishment of UK Research and Innovation, including the research councils and Innovate UK, recognises the vital role innovation plays and further strengthens the UK’s ability to turn scientific excellence into economic impact”.
That is one of the 10 pillars of the industrial strategy referred to earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Mair. It is absolutely fundamental to our future and bringing these organisations together is critically important. Only by bringing Innovate UK into UKRI will we remove the remaining barriers to greater joint working between research and business at all levels. Businesses will be able to identify more readily possible research partners and will benefit from the better alignment of the outputs of research with business needs in, for example, technology and data skills. Researchers will benefit from greater exposure to business and commercialisation expertise so that they can achieve maximum impact. It will be simpler to find and form partnerships and there will be easier movement between academia and business. The UK will benefit from a more strategic, agile and impactful approach across UKRI’s portfolio which can respond to real-world challenges and opportunities.
The critical achievement is reaching the right balance between freedom and autonomy for Innovate UK while recognising at the same time that, ultimately, the Secretary of State has to be held financially accountable in Parliament for the money that is spent. With that, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and other noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate. As the Minister said, we could have carried on debating this for rather a long time, but of course we will not.
One of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, about Brexit is that it generates an extra degree of uncertainty, and with all the uncertainties already around, this may not be a propitious moment to be creating another uncertainty by combining Innovate UK with the research councils. I look forward to another letter for the dossier, and indeed we are acquiring quite a number of them at the moment. If there is any more clarification, I would also welcome that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, the global research and innovation landscape is constantly evolving. It is important that the Government can react to this by making changes to the research councils, just as they have done in the past—for example, with the creation of the Arts and Humanities Research Council in 2005. We are all saying the same thing.
In the other place, the Minister of State, Jo Johnson, was absolutely clear that any future changes would not be undertaken lightly. This is reflected in the fact that this power cannot be exercised without legislative scrutiny and the agreement of Parliament through the affirmative resolution procedure. I can assure noble Lords that this is not a change in approach and reflects existing powers to make changes to the research councils. Secondary legislation strikes the right balance here. Primary legislation would impact on the ability of UKRI to react quickly to changing circumstances. Technology is changing very rapidly, as we all know.
In the other place the Minister of State committed that the Government would seek the views of the stakeholder community through proper consultation prior to putting any proposal forward. I reiterate that commitment. In the hypothetical event that such consultation had not taken place, I am absolutely sure that this would be strongly challenged by noble Lords during the affirmative resolution process. I believe that this is an appropriate and powerful safeguard. However, I understand noble Lords’ concerns and will reflect on today’s debate. I therefore ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Lord Prior of Brampton
“( ) facilitate, encourage and support knowledge exchange in relation to science, technology, humanities and new ideas,”
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, the Government have brought forward these amendments to clarify the vital importance of knowledge exchange within UKRI. Knowledge exchange is an essential mechanism to support universities in effectively contributing to UK growth, but it is not limited to higher education innovation funding, which is currently administered by HEFCE. The integration of knowledge exchange functions across UKRI is critical to achieving greater strategic co-ordination across the research funding landscape.
Baroness Brown of Cambridge
I shall speak to Amendments 485A, 496 and 499A in my name. I welcome the government amendments to include knowledge exchange in UKRI, but I do not feel that they go far enough. The Minister mentioned the Higher Education Innovation Fund, which is currently distributed to universities by HEFCE on the basis of encouraging interactions with industry and business, which includes knowledge transfer, collaboration support for registration of intellectual property, entrepreneurship and a range of other things.
Historically, HEIF has been assessed as delivering a benefit to the UK of £7.30 for every £1 invested. It is mentioned in the new industrial strategy as one of the routes to address the concern that the UK is excellent in research but not innovation. Indeed, the Green Paper is looking to explore the expansion of HEIF. This news will be celebrated by UK higher education institutions of all kinds, from the highly research-intensive to the more applied and business-focused institutions.
I understand from discussions with the Minister of State and the Bill team that HEIF will continue to be delivered by Research England. This is again good news, except that in Clause 91 Research England can provide financial support only for research or facilities for the purposes of, or in connection with, research. This needs to be addressed at the Research England level in Clause 91 and for UKRI in Clause 87.
The government amendments in this group are very much appreciated as they go some way towards addressing this issue by extending the UKRI and Research England support to knowledge exchange. However, I am not quite sure what the definition of “knowledge exchange” is. I believe that HEIF as currently applied delivers benefit some way beyond what one might assume is included in “knowledge exchange”. It is used to support entrepreneurship activities among undergraduates, postgraduates, researchers and university staff. It helps to support initiatives such as “dragons’ den” competitions for start-up companies in universities. It supports working with local enterprise partnerships on business growth in the regions. I am not sure whether all of these activities can be classified as knowledge exchange, but they are all important in ensuring that our universities play a strong role in stimulating innovation, entrepreneurship and economic growth locally and nationally.
My amendments would go further than the Government’s proposals to ensure that the excellent work done under HEIF can continue—and, indeed, to allow Research England to distribute other such funds in future with equally broad scope for encouraging university-business links and entrepreneurial activities. I do not believe that these amendments have different objectives from those of the Government, but I ask the Minister to reflect on whether the wording of the government amendments could go further to ensure that they cover the quite broad scope of HEIF as it is currently very effectively used.
Lord Prior of Brampton
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, who described the wide range of activities undertaken by universities under the banner of knowledge exchange—and, beyond that, the contribution that they make to their local communities, to entrepreneurship and to local economic growth.
The Bill makes clear that Research England will retain HEFCE’s research and knowledge exchange functions. This will include distributing higher education innovation funding. This vital block grant for universities in England represents an important source of stability to the sector, allowing maintenance of facilities, core staff, support for postgraduate students and a degree of entrepreneurial research activity. Research England and the new Office for Students will act together to deliver HEIF—an example of the close joint working between the two bodies and their shared remit to support business-university collaboration. The Office for Students will continue to encourage student activities such as entrepreneurship training.
The Bill ensures that UKRI will be equipped to continue to support universities to continue to play a critical role in their communities, including through knowledge exchange.
Baroness Brown of Cambridge
I thank the Minister for his reassuring response. I am keen to know how the OfS and Research England will work together to deliver HEIF funding, because, as the Minister will know, there is a very precise formula for delivering HEIF funding relating to things such as the amount of university-business research collaboration undertaken by universities. It is important to understand how work will be done between the two organisations to continue to deliver this funding. Will the Minister include that in one of his letters? In that light, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, today I hosted a group of education leaders from India and in our discussion, they asked: “What are your worries about Brexit when it comes to the UK education sector?”. In listing my worries, a list which is too long to talk about now, I stated that one of my biggest concerned research. It is all very well for the Government to say, “We’ll keep giving you the funding for research that we get from the European Union, even if we leave”, but it is much more important than that. That is why I support Amendment 488 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay.
The key to research is collaboration. Already, we are seeing EU-funded research universities in Europe not partnering with UK universities because they are worried that we will be leaving the European Union. If I may illustrate the power of collaborative research, while I was in India in November, at the same time as the Prime Minister and the Universities Minister, Jo Johnson, the University of Birmingham held a workshop with the Panjab University. There we showed the power of collaborative research: when the University of Birmingham conducts research, our field-weighted citation impact is 1.87. The Panjab University figure is 1.37. Yet when we carry out collaborative research, the impact is 5.64, or three times the Birmingham figure. When we do research with Harvard University—I am an alumnus of the Harvard Business School—while Birmingham’s impact is 1.87 and Harvard’s is 2.4, our combined impact is 5.69. This is serious. We must encourage collaborative research with the European Union and this amendment should be in the Bill.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, I think we are all pretty much in violent agreement about the critical importance of collaboration across countries, but also about being able to attract the best and brightest to the UK. There is no question about that. When one hears the story from the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, about individuals who have decided not to come here for various reasons because of Brexit, it is depressing. On the other hand, only today Novo Nordisk, the big Danish pharmaceutical company and diabetes specialist, announced that it is investing £100 million at Oxford. AstraZeneca is also building its global research facilities at Cambridge. The truth is that anecdotes can be misleading and that the jury is out.
We have to demonstrate to the international community that we are open for business, and persuade it that that is the case. Other countries have similar issues at the moment. I imagine that many scientists in the USA are thinking, “Should we stay in the US or move?”. Scientists in other parts of Europe will be thinking similar things. We have to demonstrate to this increasingly internationally mobile part of the community that Britain is the place to be. I was struck that at the Crick institute, some 34% of all its principal investigators are EU nationals, which illustrates that it is essential that we reassure them of their welcome here.
That is what the Prime Minister has been doing. She said in her Lancaster House speech on 17 January that we will,
“welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research, and technology initiatives”.
She went on to describe her vision of,
“a secure, prosperous, tolerant country—a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead”.
There should be no doubt that the Government are fully apprised of this issue and that we are determined to be, as the Prime Minister said, a magnet for international talent. I do not suppose that the country is going to be glued to reading Hansard tomorrow, but it worth making that point on any opportunities that we get.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
It does not do anything of the sort. The Minister has told us that the Government agree with the sentiments in the amendment, but he has not said that they accept the amendment. That is what matters. The Minister does not need to worry about whether anybody reads Hansard tomorrow. If the Government accept the amendment, it will be in the Bill, and people will not have to read Hansard. I seriously do not know why the Government cannot simply accept that amendment or, at the very least, why the Minister cannot say that he will go away and study it and reflect upon it before Report, rather than excluding accepting it. It is, quite honestly, absurd. I ask the Minister to think very carefully before he sits down after this short debate.
Lord Prior of Brampton
The noble Lord stopped me in full flow. I was just getting to a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, regarding visa applications. As the research councils do now, we expect UKRI, as an employer, to have a role in sponsoring visa applications for international staff on its own payroll and, in some circumstances, for particular individuals with agreed posts in universities. However, it would not be practical to make UKRI responsible for visa sponsorship for the whole sector. I think we will probably have to come back later to discuss that issue in more detail. The Government do not agree—this, I am afraid, goes to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay—that the Bill should be amended as suggested, as UKRI will be an outward-looking organisation and will build on our current excellence. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mendelsohn
I thank the Minister for his reply. I shall not echo the sentiment of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. I think more needs to be done, and I shall just make two points. We have to face up to a certain reality. While it is no doubt true that some people in the United States of America are considering their position, there it is a somewhat temporary measure. There it may be four years or eight years, but our exit from Europe will have much longer term implications. That is the issue we have to address.
While it is certainly true that things are coming to us—although some of the stuff that has been announced was being discussed well before Brexit, and people have taken a different view on risks—there is a human dimension here: making sure we are attracting talent. I have a corporate finance business. International companies that used to send people to the UK will now look elsewhere when trying to attract eastern European talent. London is not the only location they will now look at as the right sort of place to locate families.
It is important that we get this talent issue under control, and find a way to make sure that we fully express our ambitions and put the right sort of measures in the Bill. However, given the Minister’s comments—hopefully there will be some form of reflection—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) For the purposes of this Part, “knowledge exchange”, in relation to science, technology, humanities or new ideas, means a process or other activity by which knowledge is exchanged where—(a) the knowledge is in, or in connection with, science, technology, humanities or new ideas (as the case may be), and(b) the exchange contributes, or is likely to contribute, (whether directly or indirectly) to an economic or social benefit in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.”
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for a very thoughtful speech at the beginning of the debate. On Amendment 489, I want to make it clear that the Government agree that councils must be able to operate with autonomy and authority over decisions within their fields of activity. For that decision to be made, we must ensure that experts in their fields are involved in allocating grants. I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that the objectives of his amendment are already achieved in the Bill.
The Bill ensures that UKRI cannot prevent any of the research councils carrying out their duties in their specialist areas by requiring UKRI to devolve its functions to the councils for these activities. This will give the councils the independence they need to pursue their research agendas while also being able to interact as part of UKRI. Furthermore, by bringing the councils together within UKRI, we introduce the opportunity for a strategic centre, but with responsibility to consider broader issues than any council can alone. This strategic focus is a feature that many noble Lords raised at Second Reading.
Amendment 503ZA examines the Secretary of State’s power of direction. Let me reassure noble Lords that powers of direction are rarely used, but given the very large sums of public money that UKRI will be accountable for—some £6 billion—it is proportionate. The Secretary of State currently has an equivalent power of direction over research councils, and our proposals are intended to mirror that. I can reassure noble Lords that the power will not be used day to day to steer UKRI’s operations, nor as an override to the Government’s long-term commitment to the Haldane principle. However, the Secretary of State must be able to deal swiftly with any financial issues arising, for example, from financial mismanagement.
Turning to Amendments 503A and 505C, I welcome the opportunity to restate the Government’s commitment to the Written Ministerial Statement on the Haldane principle made by my noble friend Lord Willetts in 2010 which will apply to all research funding allocated to UKRI. This Statement is carefully balanced and considers important, interrelated and sometimes conflicting factors. It is, however, a policy statement, not a legal document. Obtaining such a balance in legislation through a legal definition of Haldane is not a simple task. However I will reflect on the helpful comments made here today. I hope that noble Lords will accept that if we could write Haldane into the Bill in a non-equivocal and legal way, we would do so.
On dual support, the Bill sets out in legislation for the first time the dual support system for research referred to here as balanced funding. I hope this clarifies any potential misunderstandings about the relationship between the two. Some noble Lords have asked, not unreasonably, why a different description is used. It is because the protection of the two funding streams and the balance between them are both important, and both must be carefully considered by the Secretary of State when making grants to UKRI. I agree with noble Lords that the nature of dual support is anchored in the complementary allocation and evaluation mechanisms of the two funding streams. Amendment 505ZA would replace the need for the Secretary of State to consider both halves of the dual support with a need to consider only one part—the block grant.
Let me reassure noble Lords that Clauses 95 and 96 already put considerable conditions on the Secretary of State’s powers which protect the unhypothecated nature of quality-related funding and ensure that this will continue through Research England. These restrictions are consistent with Section 68 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992. They protect academic freedom by ensuring that terms and conditions of grants cannot be framed in terms of particular courses of study, programmes of research, appointment of academic staff or admission of students.
The system of dual support sustains a dynamic balance between research that is strategically relevant and internationally peer reviewed, and research that is directed from within institutions. However, the precise modes of operation of the two streams have changed over time, for example through the evolution of the RAE into the REF. Similarly, we should not try to permanently fix what the balance should be between the two parts of dual support. Funding flows are dynamic, and there is no formula or set proportion for the balance of funding across the two parts of dual support. When considering what the balance of funding should be, as now, the Secretary of State will take advice from UKRI and consider issues such as the strategic priorities of the research base and the sustainability of higher education, research capability, and other research facilities supported through the UKRI budget.
I turn to the proposal in Amendment 495J, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, that the remit of Research England be extended to cover independent research organisations. At present, research councils accredit organisations to compete for funding if they possess the capacity to carry out research that enhances the national research base. These organisations include hospitals, museums and other public sector research establishments. Those organisations currently receive their underpinning capability funding, similar to the QR block grant from other parts of Government, and there are no plans to change this arrangement.
This debate has covered some of the most fundamental matters about how we undertake research in the UK. I have listened very carefully, seeking to draw on the experience here in this House. With the hope of further constructive dialogue, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Patel
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments. I was encouraged by his reassurances about maintaining the autonomy of research councils. Putting that on record is satisfactory to me. I am grateful to other noble Lords, and I hope that they have found that their amendments were responded to. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as declared in the register as chief executive of a medical research charity and chair of the NCRI, as I mentioned earlier.
This is a probing amendment. I apologise that I was unable to attend Second Reading, when I would have flagged up this issue. I took a tumble over the handlebars of my bicycle, so I was not able to be here. I am recovering, although I now have a little lisp.
My amendment probes whether UK Research and Innovation could have a role in ensuring that a particular avenue of research in which I am concerned—research into new indications for off-patent drugs—is fully exploited for public benefit, for patients and the NHS where appropriate.
Research into new indications for off-patent drugs can be funded by medical research charities, research councils or the National Institute for Health Research. It is often driven forward by clinical academics. There is rarely a commercial incentive for pharmaceutical companies to support such investment once a patent has expired on a drug. There is then little commercial incentive for a pharmaceutical company to fund the regulatory activities needed to promote the availability of off-patent drugs in new indications, such as licensing them to be sold and advertised for such a new purpose. Therefore, the new indication, if identified, can remain off-label—or even unlicensed.
Where a treatment is off-label or unlicensed, a number of barriers prevent it being used routinely, and prevent the public investment in that research being exploited. Clinicians can prescribe for this new indication without a licence, but, if they do, they will take on more personal responsibility and, potentially, a greater administrative burden. This can create disincentives to prescribing, even where there is evidence to support the new indication.
There is no timely system in any of the UK nations for these repurposed drugs to find their way, if appropriate, into baseline commissioning. This results in confusion and patchy access across the UK. There are a number of examples, but I will pick up only two. The first example is bisphosphonates. They were originally licensed for the prevention of bone fractures in adults with advanced breast cancer, and subsequently licensed for osteoporosis. This class of drug is now off patent. However, bisphosphonates have been shown to be effective in reducing the risk in postmenopausal women with primary breast cancer of developing metastatic breast cancer, which is incurable.
Because bisphosphonates are off patent, they have not been licensed for this use and there is no clear national commissioning policy. We are all worrying about the really expensive drugs out there but, when used to prevent metastatic breast cancer, these cost about 43p a day. The treatment could save around 1,100 lives if given to the entire eligible population of about 35,000 women a year. If this treatment was commissioned routinely, as has been suggested, it could save the NHS about £5 million per annual cohort of patients.
Another good example of this would be simvastatin, a drug which may represent a real breakthrough for patients with secondary progressive multiple sclerosis. It is a type of statin which was originally licensed for treating high cholesterol and preventing cardiovascular disease, and the patent ran out in 2004. In a recent phase 2 clinical trial it was shown to be effective in slowing brain atrophy in secondary progressive multiple sclerosis by over 40%. More evidence is needed, but phase 3 clinical trials of this drug could show that this is the first treatment able to slow or stop the deterioration seen in that condition. There are estimated to be about 65,000 people living with this form of MS in the UK. The first patented disease-modifying therapies for progressive forms of MS are likely to carry significant price tags, but this off-patent drug would cost the NHS pennies.
So there is clearly a gap—one could say a market failure—here. There could be a role for UKRI to fill this and promote the public interest by the exploitation of publicly funded research into new indications for old drugs. Studying repurposed drugs with public funding is an area of great interest. If we do not get it right it is a double waste of taxpayers’ money: once because of the public expenditure on research and twice because the benefits of that research do not reach the patients, resulting in an opportunity cost for the NHS. I am interested in probing whether there is an opportunity for the new institution to take forward this publicly funded research which would not otherwise be exploited commercially. I beg to move.
Lord Prior of Brampton
The repurposing of off-patent drugs is an important and interesting area, not least because it can be great for patients. We are also looking at medicines which are a fraction of the cost of new ones that are still under patent. So the noble Baroness has raised an important issue. She also asked a question earlier about the regulatory aspects of Brexit which I failed to address. Without wanting to duck out of a debate with the noble Baroness, I suggest that she should meet my successor at the Department of Health, my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy, to talk about both these important issues.
The Department of Health is working with medical research charities and other stakeholders to examine how evidence showing new uses for existing drugs can be brought safely and more effectively into clinical practice to treat patients. This work applies across a whole spectrum of clinical conditions. The group has made significant progress in designing a drug repurposing pathway to help charities and others to navigate a route through the NHS so that they can see how research can be shared at a national level and then picked up locally, where it can reach the patient. It is probably better if the noble Baroness talks with my successor about the role of NICE and the MHRA and how the changes to the EMA might affect this. It is not something that we would like to include in the Bill. Would the noble Baroness be happy to withdraw her amendment?
Baroness Brown of Cambridge
My Lords, Amendment 490B stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Krebs.
Both Amendment 490B and the other amendment in the group, Amendment 505D, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, seek to ensure that UKRI and the research councils operate “fair, open and transparent” funding and assessment processes. Such processes would ensure that the principle of supporting excellence wherever it is found is maintained, allowing for change and supporting strong competition and new entrants in areas of research—the very focus of much of the Bill. It aligns with the following description by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, of the Haldane principle:
“Ministers should not decide which individual projects should be funded nor which researchers should receive the money. This has been crucial to the … success of British science ... Overall, excellence is and must remain the driver of funding decisions, and it is only by funding excellent research that the maximum benefits will be secured for the nation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/12/10; cols. 138-39WS.]
This amendment is about ensuring that we fund excellence in our university research system wherever it is found. I beg to move.
Lord Prior of Brampton
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, for raising this issue. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Krebs.
The vast majority of research council grants are allocated through open and rigorous competition between all eligible institutions, which ensures that the principles of fairness and good use of public money are upheld. While I agree with noble Lords about the importance of open competition, the precise mechanism of how this is put into operation is a matter for the current and future independent funding bodies. This is consistent with the important principles of subsidiarity of decision-making and Haldane, which we have committed to defend through this Bill.
Further to this, these amendments would place an undue restriction on UKRI and the research councils by requiring that all their financial support must be allocated through open competition. This is not always suitable. For example, research councils also have an important role in providing core funding to support unique underpinning infrastructure, such as institutes and facilities. While I agree that the majority of council funding should be allocated through open competition, I feel that such a strict requirement is not consistent with the important principles of subsidiarity of decision-making and would hamper other important areas of council activity. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Willetts
My Lords, I recall receiving the letter about the James Hutton Institute, but after so many Members of the House have spoken so eloquently about that case, I would like to make a wider point about the clause. There is a long-standing problem that the Minister will wrestle with of departmental R&D budgets being cut back and attempts always to put on to the science budget policies and budgetary responsibilities that should lie with individual departments. I am sure that that is the back-drop to this case. But with the new UKRI, there is an opportunity to look more widely at the kind of research institutes that are funded out of public money and on what terms.
We have heard examples this evening of the dual funding structure, on which we pride ourselves. However, the dual funding regime actually has some significant omissions, because it is research council funding for research institutes belonging to the councils and specific projects, and, secondly, a funding stream for universities. Those that miss out are research bodies that are not part of universities, and quite possibly not even part of the conventional public sector, that particularly need capital funding. Agencies such as the Welding Institute, now called TWI, or NIAB, the National Institute of Agricultural Botany, are charitable bodies that may get individual funding from a research council for a specific project, but they have not historically been able to receive significant capital support for growing their facilities. These are the kinds of issues that UKRI will wrestle with.
It would be helpful if the Minister could say that as UKRI is set up with its new scope, it will be within its power to look at these sorts of issues. It may find excellent research institutes for which, because of the size of its capital budget, UKRI can provide some kind of capital investment in a way that does not fall neatly in the dual funding arrangements that came before. That is a good example of what one might hope will be extra flexibility in the new arrangements, just as we have heard from the Bench opposite about the need for flexibility in another way.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, I have to start with the confession that the James Hutton Institute is just a name to me. I confess my appalling ignorance on this subject. I need to research it. If I could, I will investigate the particular circumstance relating to the James Hutton Institute and then write to the noble Lord. I hope that that will be acceptable to him. I am sure it is a world-leading institution but, as I said, I have not visited and am not familiar with it.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
The Minister is very new to his post and there is absolutely no question of reproach here. What he has suggested is acceptable. However, the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, is an important one. He has identified a particular issue with the clause, and if the Minister could refer to that in his reply, it would perhaps open up an avenue for the matter to be returned to on Report.
Lord Prior of Brampton
Let me give the noble Lord my response. If it does not cover exactly the points that it should, I will pick it up outside here and write to my noble friend Lord Selborne and the noble Lord. I will also try to set my response in the context of the comments made by my noble friend Lord Willetts.
The clause will make sure that UKRI is able to carry out one of its primary functions: to provide individuals and organisations with financial support to carry out research and innovation.
The noble Lord, Lord Watson, raised questions about other research organisations’ eligibility for funding. Many of these organisations are currently not eligible to receive Research Council funding as their research activity is already separately funded from outside the science ring-fence by other government departments or the devolved Administrations.
The rationale is to keep a clear separation between government funding and challenge-led Research Council-funded science and the capability of science funded directly by government departments. This is compatible with funding excellent science and maintaining the integrity of the funding ring-fence.
Noble Lords have argued that the wording in Clause 88(4) relates to this eligibility policy. I can reassure noble Lords that the clause does not establish or steer UKRI’s eligibility criteria. The wording is intended to ensure that UKRI does not spend public funds unnecessarily where this might result in crowding out private sector investment or funding from other sources. It is one safeguard to ensure that UKRI spends public money wisely. It also enables collaborations and partnership working, as already debated, around research charities.
The Nurse review recommended that research councils should refresh their eligibility criteria to pilot an approach allowing PSREs to become eligible for funding where they put forward high-quality research proposals relevant to their capability in collaboration with a university partner. In response to this, Research Councils UK is looking to pilot ways to include PSREs in a second call for the global challenge and research fund, with funding to start in financial year 2017-18. While the Government agree that we should be making the most of the excellent science being done in PSREs, they also agree with Sir Paul Nurse that government departments should remain the principal funders of capability and funders of last resort for PSREs. I am not sure to what extent that addresses the point made by my noble friend Lord Willetts.
The Earl of Selborne
The whole point is that the James Hutton is not a PSRE. We want to deal with independent research institutions which get more than half their money from a government source.
Lord Prior of Brampton
I shall have to write to the noble Earl on that matter. I do not have the answer with me and it would be foolish to hazard a guess. The points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, need a full response as well. On that basis, I beg to move that Clause 88 stand part of the Bill.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this is an interesting amendment and it has been well trailed since the noble and learned Lord made it clear in a couple of our Committee sittings that he intended to speak on this issue. We are glad finally to get the benefit of his words expressing concern about the current drafting and the need to unpick it. I think the Minister will be at a slight disadvantage because we have been making this point throughout the six days of our deliberations in Committee. We have tried to draw the attention of the noble Viscount to the fact that wherever there is an opportunity, in our view, for the Bill to inflect a sensibility within the structures and operations of the various bodies being established under the new architecture, towards an inclusive way of treating those employed within these structures, it has always been rebuffed. That might be too strong a word, but although it has been played back to us as something the noble Viscount would think about, we have not even managed to get him to reflect on it.
So the Minister is not able to take responsibility for the omissions of the earlier sittings of the Committee, but this is a great opportunity to pick up the point. Given that he has come from a department which must have responsibility for employees—indeed, in his last outing he was dealing with trade union reform and related issues—he will be well aware of the sensitivities that these matters can give rise to. He might want to reflect on the need to respond positively to the noble and learned Lord, who has made such a fine point.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, I am going to respond but I will have to let the noble Lord draw his own conclusions as to how positive the response is. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay has raised an interesting point and I thank him for that. In the interests of discipline and autonomy, and respecting the Haldane principle, it is right that the council should have special delegated authority to appoint and to set terms and conditions for specialist academic and research staff within that council and its institutes. There are particular cases where it may be necessary for councils to directly appoint and set terms and conditions for scientists, researchers and other technical staff involved in a research endeavour. In such cases, authority to do so will be delegated to the councils, as per subsections (2) and (3). A relevant example is the Medical Research Council’s Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge. There is no intention to change such long-standing and effective relationships.
I am sympathetic to the concern raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and agree that there are many other persons whose expertise is of great importance to the successful operation of a research council. As such, I reassure noble Lords that the Bill enables the continuation of existing practice to hire staff. Such persons will become employees of the councils through UKRI. Therefore, I ask my noble and learned friend to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
If I thought I had received an answer I would be happy to do so, but surely we need to defend these people. I quite understand that this will carry on and I hope it will, but I should like to know what it is that will carry on.
Lord Prior of Brampton
To quickly interject, I will look at the issue my noble and learned friend raises. As the noble Lord opposite said, I will reflect further on the matter and write to my noble and learned friend.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I am grateful for that. I am just sorry that the reflection has not taken place between the time I raised the issue and now, but there we are. We cannot do anything about it.
My noble friend mentioned a letter. I was at a meeting last week with a number of people interested in the Bill and its progress. They mentioned the letters referred to in Hansard. They asked where they could see them. I was not certain, but I assume they are in the Library.
(a) the undertaking of research into science, technology, humanities or new ideas by eligible higher education providers receiving financial support which is within subsection (2), or(b) the undertaking of knowledge exchange in relation to science, technology, humanities or new ideas by eligible education providers receiving such financial support.”
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I will speak very briefly to Amendments 503, 505 and 506, to which I added my name. All simply assert the importance of having regard to the principle of institutional autonomy, which we have raised at various times throughout the Bill. It seems appropriate to reassert the principle of the autonomy of higher education institutions in these three places. I beg to move.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, as with similar amendments regarding the OfS, I assure noble Lords that the Government agree that institutional autonomy is of the utmost importance, and that we are actively considering how to address the concerns that have been raised.
On Amendment 503, Clause 95 already protects institutional autonomy by stipulating the unhypothecated nature of Research England’s funding allocations—and it does so in stronger language than that proposed.
It is unnecessary to make Amendment 505 as the same protections given to Research England’s funding in respect of grants also apply to the Secretary of State’s power of direction. As I have already stated this evening, the power to give directions is limited to financial matters; it is not a power to direct UKRI more generally. This power is similar to that currently afforded by the Science and Technology Act 1965 and does not reduce the autonomy of institutions.
Amendment 506 would be overly restrictive and could also undermine the dual-support system. It would blur the distinction between the two funding streams of dual support and erode, if not end, grant funding awarded on the basis of peer-reviewed project excellence. UKRI and its councils need to retain strategic oversight of the research that they fund, just as the research councils do now. Unlike Research England, UKRI’s remit will not be limited to higher education institutions. UKRI will have a strategic vision for research and innovation across the UK. It will fund and engage with research institutes and facilities, as well as businesses, both domestically and internationally. The principle of institutional autonomy does not apply in the same way to many of these organisations. As such, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank the Minister for his reassurances and explanation, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
““knowledge exchange” has the meaning given by section 87;”
Lord Prior of Brampton
I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay for raising this important matter. I hope that I do better in response to this amendment than I did in response to his earlier amendment. It is absolutely right that UKRI and the OfS should work together in relation to research students and research degree-awarding powers.
Let me first reassure noble Lords that, while the responsibility for all degree- awarding powers will sit with the OfS, UKRI will play an active role in matters relating to research degree-awarding powers. It will be instrumental in developing the criteria and process by which applicants for these powers are assessed. For example, it will work with the OfS to identify suitable expert scrutinisers of RDAP applications. This collaboration will safeguard standards and ensure that assessors with the appropriate skills are core in decision-making. Likewise, on research students the OfS will be the regulator for all students, including postgraduate students, but UKRI will of course work with it when appropriate to provide expert advice in relation to postgraduate students.
As an example, as I said previously in this debate, each year thousands of research students in the UK are supported by research council funding. Putting a legislative requirement on the OfS and UKRI to make such funding decisions jointly would not add value; it would add only bureaucracy. However, having both organisations working together to develop a strategy that ensures that the pipeline for good research students is healthy would add value. The current legal provisions, subsequent government guidance and a healthy co-operative culture within the organisation will ensure that this happens. As the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, mentioned earlier, one cannot sledgehammer a culture into shape between two organisations through legislation. That is why the joint working provision in the Bill has been drafted to be permissive. It will be a key aspect of UKRI and the OfS’s missions to co-operate with each other.
The Government will issue guidance to both organisations that will set out where we expect them to work together. There will be a memorandum of understanding between UKRI and the OfS to set out the detail. The executive teams and the boards will be responsible for ensuring that this important joint working is achieved. The advert for the UKRI board includes the duty of,
“ensuring strong, collaborative relationships are put in place to aid joint working with the Office for Students, the devolved HE funding bodies and other key partners”.
I recognise the strength of feeling on this matter and the Government have listened carefully to the issue raised by noble Lords here today. It is with the assurances that I have given that I ask my noble and learned friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
Yes, I certainly propose to withdraw the amendment now, but this is an extremely important point and I do not really think that government guidance can take the place of an Act of Parliament. The idea of granting research degree-awarding powers is an important matter for the national interest. I do not think that it can be left to guidance from the Minister, however wise that guidance may be. It is the responsibility of Parliament to set the structures under which that should happen. I cannot see at the moment how it can be right that the responsibility for that should be in the Office for Students when, standing alongside it in the administration, is UKRI, with all the technical qualifications for research which that implies. I will withdraw the amendment with happiness but in the hope that we can progress this matter further before we have the next session on the Bill. In the meantime, and with regard to the time, I am glad to finish.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I take this opportunity simply to congratulate the Minister on having taken over this intricate and important part of the Bill. He has discharged his responsibilities with great skill.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, as this is the last group of amendments, most of which were not moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I shall respond briefly and particularly take note of the general comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I shall make a short concluding comment. If there are matters in this group of amendments that require some writing, I will write to all noble Lords and put a copy of such letters in the Library of the House.
I shall make some concluding comments about this quite long Committee stage. I record my appreciation of the whole Committee and of all noble Lords who have taken part in all the debates for the quality and constructive nature of the discussions we have been having in the past few weeks. I am very pleased that noble Lords recognise that Committee stage is about discussing the Bill, probing the detail and, importantly, giving all sides an opportunity to listen to other noble Lords’ points of view. As a result, noble Lords have not felt the need to divide the Committee beyond the first amendment on the first day. For that, I am grateful.
Now we have some time before the Bill enters its Report stage. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has challenged me on the meaning of different verbs used on occasion by me on and around the word “reflect”. I hope I can leave a smile on his face—or perhaps not—by saying that I am actively working with my honourable friend in the other place, Jo Johnson, to reflect on these discussions and consider the best way forward. On a serious note, I hope the noble Lord and the noble Lords, Lord Watson and Lord Mendelsohn, realise that I have given much warmer words than that at certain points. In that spirit, I want to be sure that he understands that we are looking very carefully at Hansard and reflecting generally on all the debates. I am looking forward to Report. In the meantime, I would just say that I have very much appreciated the debates and look forward to future ones.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, because of the invitation to reflect, I will take a slight liberty and make two points. The worst time of my life was when I occupied a post in the British film industry and was involved in trying to get decisions for funding for films. We were often engaged in trying to deal with larger, richer and often foreign bodies, which were prepared to tantalise us with the thought that they might invest in our films. It became well known in that process that the worst decision you could get was the slow maybe. I am afraid we are in that situation. The Minister has said that he is reflecting and thinking, but we have not been able to get clarity. It is easier to have a straight, “No, we are not taking this forward”, than it is to have variations on “thinking hard about” or reflecting. I appreciate the gesture that he has made, but it has been a bit of a frustrating period, and I am sure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, will also say that sometimes it has been very hard to understand where the Minister has wanted to get to with a particular issue because we did not get clarity about it.
However, that is all past. We are now into a period of calm waters, and perhaps we can pick up the threads of some of what we are doing and try to take forward the ideas for Report and possibly onwards from then. I hope that that will be a fruitful time, and I look forward to it.
“( ) Section 83(2)(ba)(ii) and (3) come into force, in relation to Wales, on such day as the Welsh Ministers may by regulations made by statutory instrument appoint.”