Scotland: Devolution

Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I begin with two declarations of interest, one of the heart and one of the head. Both are relevant to this debate. From the heart, I have four grandparents, one Irish, one Scots, one Welsh and one English. That means I have a stake in many parts of this debate. I spent a lot of the six months leading up to the referendum with sleepless nights, worrying, not just about what would happen to Scotland, but about the results for Northern Ireland had there been a yes vote. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has already hinted at these and I suspect the noble Lord, Lord Bew, will tell us more. Thank goodness we will never know what those results would have been, but those people in both Belfast and Dublin who knew the situation best thought that they could well be catastrophic. It is a fragile settlement.

From the head, because I chair the Equality and Human Rights Commission, I have had occasion to look at some aspects of our ragged devolution settlements. They are quite different, but it is worth noting that both the Scottish and Northern Irish settlements refer directly to the Human Rights Act, yet we have suggestions from some quarters that that legislation might be repealed. If it were, we do not know whether that means unpicking the Scottish and Northern Irish devolution settlements. I hope not—I think it may just have been overlooked—but that was the implication of what has been proposed.

Some noble Lords may think it has now gone away, but I have another worry, which is about the notion of devo-max. It played a very large part in discussions, over the last couple of years, about what would happen in the event of a no vote, which is what we actually got. It is a very unclear slogan and I suppose it was meant to indicate an aspiration. However, it seems to me that it was well chosen to indicate an illusory and ill defined aspiration. Devolution is the sort of thing that anybody would be pretty ill advised to try to maximise. To me, maximising means that you have got some clear unit and you get as much as possible. What is devo-max and what was it meant to be? As we think forward about devolution we should surely aspire, not to maximise something but to get something coherent and workable in which powers are not devolved without the responsibility to exercise them or without the resources or tax-raising competence to do so or without accountability for how it is done. The overall aim must be to secure devo-coherence for each part of the United Kingdom, not devo-max. My slogan is, therefore, the not very enlightening one: devo-coherent.

I will say a little bit about devolution and delegation. Mere delegation of powers, responsibilities and resources does not constitute a feasible scheme of devolution. Devolution is not the same as delegation for many different reasons, but I will emphasise one which is often overlooked. Powers have often been delegated on the assumption that, at the other end, there are bodies that are delivery agencies of centrally prescribed aims. There is little gain for anybody in devolving powers and then prescribing exactly how they have to be discharged. The supposed gain in democratic accountability that might be achieved by a coherent scheme of devolution would be entirely lost if it was accompanied by a centrally prescribed set of boxes to be ticked, performance indicators to be met and measures that effectively remove all discretion in the use of the supposedly devolved powers. This has corollaries that may not always be welcome. If devolution is about permitting variation and decision-making at a lower level and if variation is allowed then complaints about postcode lotteries when various decisions are made are simply out of bounds. This does not mean that accountability for devolved decisions is out of bounds; on the contrary, it becomes more essential. However, it does mean that the forms of accountability adopted must fit the case and in smaller jurisdictions where, as we say, everybody knows everybody, thinking how to make forms of accountability effective can be quite divisive.

Devolution, variability and parity are aims we should all have. I return to our ragged set of devolution settlements. There is no need for uniformity. Inevitably, the settlements for Scotland, with its ancient legal system, and Northern Ireland with its partly necessary—if considerably dysfunctional—consociational constitutional settlement, will need to be varied to take account of realities. However, it is also essential to take account of and respect the unitary status of citizenship in the United Kingdom and to ensure that fundamental rights and protections are there for all, and that advantages and disadvantages are traceable to accountable, devolved decisions and not to asymmetries in the way the overall devolution settlements treat those living in the various jurisdictions. We need to think very hard about the rights of citizens and the sorts of redress for breaches of rights that must be available to all. Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, I believe that common citizenship requires devolved structures that respect the same underlying standards and provide rights of appeal to the Supreme Court for all in every jurisdiction.

We have to accept that Scotland will get ahead in devolution. The promises, the vow, guaranteed that. We probably have to accept that for a time Scotland continues to enjoy more favourable financial terms than the rest of us. Again, we had better swallow that. But we do not have to accept that the status quo is the future. I believe that it will take a constitutional convention and genuine leadership if we are to have a wider and coherent form of devolution.

Scotland: Independence

Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. It is vital that our focus is on ensuring that there is a substantial no vote in the referendum in September and that we set out the benefits. Ahead of the debate in your Lordships’ House tomorrow morning, I hope later this afternoon to send out to noble Lords the 20 positive reasons—there are many more—that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland set out earlier this month together with links to the 10 analysis papers published so far in Scotland, which make a very compelling case for the integrity of the United Kingdom and for Scotland remaining part of it.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord agree that even in the event of a no vote in Scotland, which I very much hope for, there are questions to be addressed about our variegated devolution settlements with parts of the United Kingdom? Does he not further agree that thought about that should take place now rather than in a rush after an unexpected and unhoped for yes vote?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. There are important issues about our current constitutional arrangements in all parts of the United Kingdom. The Government have shown by our implementation of the Calman report proposals, through the Scotland Act 2012 and the way that we are taking forward the proposals of the Silk commission in relation to Wales that we are alert to these. But I am certain that a no vote in September will not bring an end to these discussions. All parties and even people without parties have an important contribution to make to those discussions.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve Excerpts

Monday 16th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who has performed a very real service in putting down this amendment and raising this issue. I had the privilege to be the chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in another place from 2005 to 2010 and saw at close hand the establishment of the power-sharing Executive. Two things struck me: first, it was remarkable—indeed, unique—and, secondly, it was fragile, as events of the past weeks have reminded us. We must do nothing that may, even inadvertently, damage what has been achieved—something to which successive Prime Ministers have contributed. Without Sir John Major’s trail-blazing work, I do not think that Prime Minister Blair would have been able to bring about the Good Friday agreement. I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, nodding in assent.

A great deal has been contributed by a great many people to establish something truly remarkable which is an example for the rest of the world. The last thing we must do—even inadvertently, as I say—is to jeopardise or threaten that. Therefore, I appeal to my noble friend the Minister to say that he recognises the importance and the sensitivities of this crucial subject, that the implications for the United Kingdom as a whole would be considerable and profound if the achievements of recent years were put at risk, and that he will ensure that, as the Bill proceeds through your Lordships’ House, the Government recognise the vital matters that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, so rightly and judiciously mentioned.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with the points that other speakers have raised, but I support the amendment for a further reason, which is that the politics of Northern Ireland differ from those of the rest of the United Kingdom. Noble Lords may say that that reason is more apparent in Part 1 of the Bill, which deals with political parties and lobbying. However, we should remember that the parties that campaign in Northern Ireland may also receive funding from individuals and organisations in the Republic of Ireland. The Republic is reasonably generous in giving citizenship to those who are not domiciled there. That line of thought should suggest to Ministers that there are additional reasons for ensuring that the civil society organisations and charities that have made such a profound difference in Northern Ireland can continue to do their work.

[Lord Horam (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Electoral Commission. However, I am speaking for myself on this occasion and any further remarks I make in this debate are not from the Electoral Commission.

The burden of the point of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, which I take very seriously, is that civic society plays a special role in Northern Ireland because of the nature of the political settlement there. The solution he proposes, which is to exempt Northern Ireland entirely from the provisions of the Bill, is only one possible solution to the problems. Another solution was put forward by the commission chaired by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, which goes into the issue in some detail. The noble and right reverend Lord points out that if the registration levels were raised, and if the costs of security and safety were exempted from regulation, that would be another way of dealing with this issue, rather than exempting them from the Bill as a whole.

As to the other remarks made by the previous speaker, the noble Baroness was quite right to say that, in relation to donations, for example, which have played a very important part in the political tragedy, if you like, of Northern Ireland, delegated powers under another Bill allow the Secretary of State to bring in provisions as he thinks fit and as his judgment suggests is wise. That is a third alternative to exempting Northern Ireland entirely from the provisions of the Bill. It would be rather stark to do that, given that—I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, would agree—in essence we are trying to normalise the situation in Northern Ireland as we go along. Therefore, we could give it special attention by all means, but to exempt it totally from the provisions of the Bill would be too stark when there are alternative ways forward.