Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Lord Ashcombe

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I want to offer a slightly different perspective on this group of amendments. All the amendments in this group, and indeed some later groups, involve a series of rather worthy things—for which there are to be reports or other consequences—to be achieved by giving a direction to Great British Energy. While I support the amendments on the basis that they are probing amendments, I find it difficult to support the structure of the amendments themselves.

It seems to me that, by using the power of direction in Clause 6, the amendments would undermine the nature of that power and subvert the effectiveness of the power of direction, which is a long-standing feature of the control framework for public corporations. Powers of direction for nationalised industries were commonplace when nationalisation took hold from the 1940s onward. I do not know whether they existed before that, but they certainly have a pedigree of nearly 80 years. The first one of which I am aware is in relation to the Bank of England Act 1946, which nationalised the Bank of England. They have been a feature of public body legislation ever since, except in relation to bodies which are created as regulatory bodies.

The power of direction was never conceived as a mechanism for giving routine instructions to public bodies, which is what all the amendments in this group and the subsequent groups are trying to do. In fact, throughout the history of nationalised industries, the power of direction has almost certainly not been used. In relation to the Bank of England, I asked the previous Government fairly recently whether they would like to give up the power of direction over the Bank of England and whether they had used it since 1946; the answer was that they had never used it since 1946, but they definitely wanted to keep it. The fact that a power has not been used does not necessarily have any meaning, because it is designed as a backstop power for use in extreme circumstances. The mere fact of its existence can be a powerful weapon in the hands of the Government of the day.

It should be an uncontested fact that the Government ultimately call the shots in relation to public corporations, however much operational independence they claim to be handing over to them when they set the bodies up. The board of a public body should be very wary of not following the wishes of the Government of the day, unless those wishes conflict with their legal and statutory objectives.

I will always defend the ability of the Government to give directions to a public body, because public bodies should not be above the Government of the day. I think there are far too many public bodies, but if we have to have them, we must have an effective power of telling them what to do when necessary. I would definitely not want that core power to be diluted by being cluttered up with a lot of more day-to-day matters, which is partly what the amendments in this group and subsequent amendments do.

The concerns of my noble friend on the Front Bench and indeed other noble Lords who have drafted these amendments would be better met by placing specific requirements in the Bill, rather than by cluttering up the power of direction which has a very special place in the control framework for public bodies.

[Lord Ashcombe (Con)]

My Lords, I support my many noble friends in their amendments in this wide-ranging group. I declare my interest as an insurance broker in the energy industry for Marsh.

In the Labour manifesto under the section entitled “Make Britain a clean energy superpower”, its second mission to rebuild Britain, there is a plan to create 650,000 jobs by 2030. This will obviously need to include the supply chain, as the number of jobs required for running energy projects will never reach this amount.

In the Great British Energy Founding Statement, we learn:

“Backed by a capitalisation of £8.3 billion of new money over this Parliament, Great British Energy will work closely with industry, local authorities, communities and other public sector organisations to help accelerate Britain’s pathway to energy independence. That means installing thousands of clean power projects across the country, crowding in investment for next-generation technologies, and providing vital support to accelerate large-scale projects”.


For new money, we can read taxpayers’ money.

When taxpayers’ money is being spent, it simply cannot be thought of as a blank cheque, in this case with a large upper limit. It is imperative that there are checks and balances in the system to ensure that money is spent wisely to the benefit of the country. I suggest to the Minister that some of these measures might include the following: the need to demonstrate the benefit in each venture towards the £300 saving so heavily touted in the run-up to the general election; the need to demonstrate the benefit in each venture towards the creation of 650,000 jobs on the back of this clean energy drive and again touted in the run-up to the general election; and the need to ensure that grid connections, as have been mentioned, to connect the new generating assets are available as and when needed, something that has been very difficult to achieve in the past. That would also prevent ludicrous curtailment payments. The costs from NESO to do this are enormous—I believe I am right in saying some £40 billion a year until 2030.

The measures also need to show the net effect of carbon emissions and the reductions being made as the years progress, which is what this Bill is all about. However, it is especially important to consider not only scope 1 emissions, being direct greenhouse gas emissions that occur from sources that are controlled or owned by an organisation, and scope 2 emissions, being indirect greenhouse gas emissions associated with the purchase of electricity, steam, heat or cooling but also—and possibly most importantly—scope 3 emissions, being the greenhouse emissions resulting from activities from assets not owned or controlled by the reporting organisation but that the organisation indirectly affects in its value chain. My noble friend Lord Hamilton talked about one specific example. In my opinion, this has specific reference to solar panels, which are manufactured predominantly—some 85%—in China, and wind turbines, of which 60% are manufactured in China, which has certainly not demonstrated any restraint in curbing emissions. Then, there is the subsequent voyage to the final destination. Let us not forget what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said.

There is also the need to show a reduction in imported energy—both via electrical interconnectors and hydrocarbons as LNG or by pipe from Norway and the continent—balanced against the production of our own North Sea gas and being allowed to continue to search for more off our abundant coasts.

Further, there is the need to show that a significant percentage of the materials used in any work done is generated in the UK and the need to demonstrate that we are becoming more self-sufficient in power generation—something we have not got to yet. Finally, but of no lesser importance, there is the need to demonstrate financial return to the benefit of the taxpayer.

In a number of these amendments, various timeframes have been suggested to produce a fair audit trail for Parliament and the taxpayer. Without them, who will know the real benefits of all this expense? Does the Minister agree that measurement provides results and therefore helps to determine the way forward?