Health Research
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(2 weeks, 2 days ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
I note my noble friend’s observation. I certainly can give the assurance that the United Kingdom will continue to support and promote its research capability at home and, where we can, internationally. It might be helpful if I tell your Lordships’ House that, on 10 February, a United States district judge temporarily blocked the Administration’s cuts following a lawsuit which was led by attorneys from 22 US states. There is a further hearing scheduled for 21 February, so it is wait and see, and we continue to keep a close eye.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, NIH is the world’s largest supporter of biomedical research. A long time ago, I was a part beneficiary of its funding. It is renowned for developing many technologies for medical care, the two latest being CRISPR technology for treating disease and messenger RNA for developing vaccines. The UK is the first country in the world to license using CRISPR technology to treat sickle cell anaemia and thalassemia. In view of the cuts in NIH funding, we have an opportunity to increase our recruitment process for talented scientists who will be now be looking for a new home. As the country with the second-largest research profile in biomedical research, we may be able to benefit from it, so I hope the Government will refocus their efforts in the life science strategy and remove the impediments to the recruitment of talented scientists.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord makes an important point. Decisions made by other countries, including the United States, are a matter for them. As the noble Lord said, if this goes ahead—I have made comments on a lawsuit, so I am limited in what I can say—while the US is indeed one of the UK’s closest partners in this area, we will seek every opportunity internationally and continue our commitment to see research at the heart of our NHS into the future.
National Cancer Plan
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(2 weeks, 4 days ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
This is an extremely important point which will very much feature in the cancer plan. I am sure all noble Lords will join me in being glad to see the right reverend Prelate in rude health. I share his comments about the quality of care that is offered. I was fortunate enough to visit the Royal Marsden NHS Foundation Trust and Institute of Cancer Research on the day of the launch of the national cancer plan and the AI-assisted trial for women to tackle breast cancer. I assure the right reverend Prelate that that is crucial. I say from the Dispatch Box that I would expect any plan and work to take account of inequalities. I mentioned earlier targeting lung cancer; that is exactly what it does, and we need to see more of that.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, the fact is that our best cancer services deliver as good a result as any in the world; they are second to none. We do not need to focus on what might happen in the future, with the promise of AI, etcetera. It may promise utopia, but we need the same degree of care as our best delivery provided universally to every cancer patient in our health service. That is what I hope the cancer plan will focus on, and not get carried away by a future that may look promising and bright but which may not deliver. I am delighted that there will be a separate children’s cancer plan, because that is needed. I hope that, in the meantime, it will stop any discussion about shutting down about our best children’s cancer hospital, for whatever reasons—which I think might be political.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I want to clarify that while the cancer plan is not specifically aimed at children and young people, such evidence will be welcomed. Also, the taskforce will be relaunched this year, alongside the national cancer plan. As we do with adults, equally, we want to identify ways to improve outcomes and patient experience.
I hear the noble Lord’s point about AI. It is not a utopia, but it is a tool in the box that we would absolutely be right to look at. I am also struck by how AI is not something separate from human beings; it is human beings who guide it, and it has great potential. On the noble Lord’s point about tackling inequalities in access, which was also made by the right reverend Prelate, he is absolutely right. It is not acceptable that some people, because of where they live or who they are, are not accessing care. This is a constant issue for us, and we continue to tackle it.
Care Homes: Safety Ratings
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(3 weeks, 2 days ago)
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Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, whether or not the newspapers were correct in reporting what the CEO said, I am sure we would agree that the Care Quality Commission has been found deficient in its performance. With particular reference to the reports on maternity services, which are now in crisis, what are the Government going to do about properly evaluating maternity services?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I absolutely agree that the CQC has been deficient in its performance. We can look back to 2023 for the roots of that, when a new single assessment framework for assessing providers, coupled with a new IT system and changes in the CQC’s staffing model, were all brought into play. That produced a stark reduction in its inspection activity, as well as causing huge problems in the time taken to carry out re-inspections. In all of the ways that I have already mentioned, in addition to discussions on reducing the backlog and looking at the technology, staffing structure and improving governance within the CQC, this will be a root-and-branch change and will greatly improve inspection for maternity units and others.
First-cousin Marriage
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(1 month, 1 week ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his support in this area, which is indeed sensitive. The statistics he quotes are quite right. It is of course an interesting reflection that the risk of genetic abnormalities does not just double from 3% to 6% in those infants whose parents are first cousins, but also doubles in older white British mothers—I am a bit worried about saying “older” because it is actually over 34. However, the point is well made that it is not just this group. NHS England has recently published guidance to improve the recording of national data on closely related couples, so I hope that noble Lords will find this of interest as we go along. But of course, there has also been much investment in research as well as data development, and I absolutely agree that data is what has to drive us.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, we know that there are over 6,000 genetically related rare diseases and that, apart from first-cousin marriages, there are other high-risk areas. One, which the Minister just mentioned, is the age of the mother, but this also applies to the age of the father, to people who undergo certain medical technology treatments for fertility reasons, and to mothers who smoke at a higher rate. So, there are lots of other influences that may give rise to genetic-related issues at birth. But the important question is: are there any areas where we can definitively say, “If you do X, Y and Z, or if you do not do X, Y and Z, the incidence of genetic diseases will be reduced”?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord is absolutely right that there is a whole range of factors in this area, and I am grateful to him for bringing that before your Lordships’ House. He will of course be aware of the main pillars in the 10-year plan: for example, moving from sickness to prevention, which is key. The noble Lord also mentioned tackling smoking, which we will continue to drive forward. But I wanted to use the Question to highlight that the NIHR is undertaking research projects into improving early recognition, diagnosis and treatment of specific genetic and congenital diseases, particularly in communities with high rates of marriage between close relations. So, to the specific point, I again hope that that will be helpful.
Health and Adult Social Care Reform
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
The independent review by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey—in addition, as I mentioned, to producing recommendations that can be implemented straight away next year—is focusing on completing its final report later in this Parliament, so we are looking at the longer term. I cannot give an exact timetable, although I am hopeful that we will be able to update your Lordships’ House with further information, as the noble Baroness quite rightly asked. The matter of discharge requires there being suitable facilities in the community, but we are not in that place, so this will take some time. But I am very hopeful that all of the measures here, and the measures we have taken already, take us further to that point. We will continue to strive on the matter of discharge, because it is a problem not only for the NHS but for patients and their carers and for social care. We are carrying, as we know, a lot of vacancies and a social care system that is creaking at the seams: we must be honest about that.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, I welcome the Statement and many of the proposals in it. We have learned from past experience that all reforms to, and any proposal to change things in, the NHS—and, for that matter, social care, but more so with the NHS—lead to increased bureaucracy but not the benefits that we thought they might deliver. One of the waiting list initiatives is that GPs will have a consultation with hospital staff to try to reduce waiting times and avoid unnecessary duplication. There is some financial incentive attached to that, but it certainly will increase bureaucracy. What modelling has been done to find out whether it will work, whether it will increase bureaucracy and by how much it will increase costs?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for welcoming many of the measures in this announcement. He referred to the £20 fee that will be paid to GPs to call the consultant where necessary. I understand the concern about increasing bureaucracy, but all these reforms are intended to work the other way. We will very closely monitor them and have very carefully considered them with all those who will be dealing with them. I am actually more than hopeful, because the intention is that allowing the GP, for example, to get further advice, and making sure that people are being seen in the right place, will save money. It will mean that people are not taking up a referral place and that they will be referred for the necessary tests, scans, et cetera without the middle bit, which is a very backward-facing way of dealing with things. We will continue to monitor that to ensure that we are reducing what is currently wasted clinical time, while also preventing unnecessary out-patient appointments. The monitoring should show all of that and I will be very happy to update the House on that. The fee is to ensure that it can happen and is an incentive to do so. Of course, the greatest prize is an increased and speedier service for patients.
Health: Obesity
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
I certainly agree with the noble Lord about the need for favourable alternatives, and to educate people, particularly at a young age, about what healthy eating can look like, but it is also important to create the right environment and circumstances, and not everybody has that to hand. The provision of free school meals in the way the noble Lord referred to is of course a matter for local government to decide. I can say that the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition has reviewed the evidence about ultra-processed foods and believes that further research is needed, which we have commissioned. Importantly, the committee has added UPFs to its watching brief and many are covered by existing legislation, because there are regulations on foods high in fat, salt and sugar which are applicable to ultra-processed foods.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, I am delighted to hear the Minister say that the department has commissioned some more research. The small amount of research that is available suggests that processed, and particularly ultra-processed, food causes addiction, stimulating some dopamine centres, and that people who consume ultra-processed food want more food. In a small study of two groups of people, one consuming ultra-processed food and the other not, it was found that far more calories were consumed by those eating ultra-processed food. I would be glad to hear what research the department has commissioned to address this issue.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord raises a very interesting point. It is certainly the case that those who consume ultra-processed food have around 50% of their calorific intake through that matter. Where there is not clarity is on whether the foods are unhealthy due to processing or to their nutritional content. On that, the jury is out. We need to establish that. That is the why the Government’s Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition has concluded that the association between UPFs and health is concerning. We need to get to the bottom of why that is.
Anti-depressants: Cost, Risks and Ramifications
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
I extend my deepest sympathies to the family of Thomas Kingston after his very tragic death earlier this year. We await the findings of the inquest and will act on any recommendations by the coroner as appropriate. While there has been an increase in prescribing, as the noble Lord observes, anti-depressants, for example, are often prescribed for a wide range of reasons—not just for the treatment of depression but for migraine, chronic pain, and ME, among other conditions. The other possible reason for the increase is because of the stigma associated with seeking mental health treatment, but prescribing anti-depressants is never the first port of call—it is just one of the tools in the box to assist people. There are no current plans to conduct a review.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, did not mention whether we were discussing specific anti-depressants, but the case he mentioned does refer to a group of anti-depressants called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They treat the patient by increasing serotonin levels, but they run the risk of patients having suicidal ideation—the feeling of wanting to commit suicide. In a meta-analysis carried out using 29 research reports, it was found that they are beneficial in the early phase of the treatment of depression, but in later phases the data is less reliable. Are the MHRA and the NIHR working together to look at the evidence available and to produce the appropriate guidance? To avoid a high risk of suicide in people using this group of drugs, it is important to have proper monitoring, which means controlled visits to appropriate health specialists.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I assure the noble Lord that NICE keeps all its clinical guidance under active surveillance to ensure that it can respond to any new evidence that is relevant, including relevant clinically related literature, that could possibly impact on its recommendations. More broadly, guidance recommends that suicidal ideation should be monitored in people with depression who are receiving treatment, particularly in the early weeks of treatment. That includes specific recommendations on medication for people at risk of suicide.
Bread and Flour Regulations 1998
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
Please do not apologise. We are seeing through all the measures that are possible to reduce dental decay as part of our prevention policies, and that includes introducing supervised toothbrushing for young children. I know that a number of noble Lords are interested in the matter of fluoridation—they have raised it with me in discussions about dentistry—and I will be pleased to write to my noble friend.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is right to mention Nick Wald; he pioneered the study that I was part of when I was on the steering committee of the MRC. The important point I want to make is that it is before pregnancy starts and in its early phases that folic acid is most important; it is not about prescribing it once the pregnancy is established. I speak as someone who had to look after many mothers who had neural tube defects, such as anencephaly.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord’s observation is, obviously, right. Folic acid contributes, for example, to tissue growth during pregnancy, as well as to the normal function of the immune system and to reducing tiredness and fatigue. As for the point I made earlier, one of the strong reasons for this policy is that 50% of pregnancies are not planned. Therefore, it is about ensuring that folic acid is available in a diet before pregnancy, whether or not that pregnancy is planned. That is vital.
Health: Quad-demic
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
We are absolutely committed to learning the lessons from Covid in order to build resilience. The recommendations of the independent review of procurement by Nigel Boardman have already been implemented and a Covid Counter-Fraud Commissioner has already been appointed to scrutinise contracts to learn the lessons and recover money for taxpayers. Professor Sir Stephen Powis, who I have spoken to about this, was not suggesting that there is a pandemic but more that four infectious diseases are coalescing to create a situation and that vaccination is crucial. His comments were a call to the public to get vaccinated, which I also endorse.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, currently the RSV vaccination is available to the older age group of 75 to 79 year-olds—of course, it is available to a younger age group for vulnerable people—unlike in the CDC advice, which is that over-75s should get the immunisation. Older people are more susceptible to RSV and end up with more severe disease and hospitalisation, so why is the advice in the United Kingdom that the over-80s should not get immunisation? It has been suggested that the trials had insufficient evidence. The two trials for Moderna and Pfizer showed that efficacy was maintained in the older age group and therefore the JCVI’s interpretation is rather narrow in scientific terms —or is it to save money?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I listened carefully to the noble Lord. The JCVI considered that there was less certainty about how well the RSV vaccine works in people aged 80 and over when the programme was introduced in 2023, and that is because, as the noble Lord said, there were insufficient people aged 80 and older in the clinical trials. The JCVI continues to keep this under review, including looking at data from clinical trials and evidence in other countries, and there will shortly be an update to your Lordships’ House in respect of research and clinical trials.
Type 2 Diabetes: Continuous Glucose Monitors
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(3 months, 1 week ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord makes a very fair observation. Work is going on in a wider equality monitoring programme exploring how to keep an eye on equality repercussions, including ethnicity, by reference to protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010. Importantly to the point he raised, the review includes consideration of how NHS ethnic group categories can be updated. The outcome of the review—this is the point I really want to emphasise—will ultimately guide a process of reducing inequalities, but I accept his challenge and his point.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, there is a strong link between body mass index, BMI, and type 2 diabetes. People with a body mass index of 25 to 30 have an 8% chance of developing type 2 diabetes; those with 30 to 40 have a 20% chance; and those with a body mass index of 40 or over have a 40% chance. One way of monitoring long-term glycaemic glucose levels is to measure haemoglobin A1C. It might therefore be an idea to use haemoglobin A1C levels to diagnose early type 2 diabetes, initially in people with a BMI of 40 or over, as a screening tool. It might be an idea to ask NICE or the screening committee to evaluate that likelihood.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Lord makes a helpful point. I can tell your Lordships’ House that diabetes testing is included as part of the NHS health check. If a person is identified as being at high risk of type 2 diabetes, they should be offered a blood sugar glucose test or a fasting glucose test. NICE produces guidelines on preventing type 2 diabetes in people at high risk, and that includes recommendations on risk assessments, including blood testing, which can include people with a high BMI. His point is extremely valid, some of that is in place and we will ensure that it continues.
Cancer: Older People
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(3 months, 1 week ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
My noble friend is quite right that the incidence of cancer is expected to rise across the UK, especially in older people. I agree that older people can face specific barriers when accessing care. Following on from the independent review by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, I assure my noble friend that the 10-year health plan and the subsequent cancer strategy for England, both to be published next year, will help us do more to prevent cancer, identify it early and treat people quickly. They will have regard to older people.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, I am delighted to hear that we will have a new cancer strategy. I have tried to get a debate in this House on that for two or three years now. Maybe the Minister will use her influence with the powers that be so that we can have a government-led debate on the cancer strategy. However, one of the reasons why our outcomes are poor is late diagnosis of cancer. Only 54% of cancers are diagnosed at stages 1 and 2. What plans do the Government have to improve early diagnosis of cancer?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am sure the powers that be heard what the noble Lord said about a debate. On the point he raised, I absolutely agree that diagnosing cancer earlier, at stages 1 or 2, improves outcomes and survival. I refer again to the report by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi: we need to do more to diagnose people at an early stage. Work is already being undertaken to improve cancer screening uptake. We will continue to roll out targeted interventions such as the lung cancer screening programme, which has a particular effect and impact on the most disadvantaged areas. Members of your Lordships’ House will know that the Budget also committed to £1.5 billion of capital funding for new surgical hubs and diagnostic scanners, which will increase capacity.
NHS: Independent Investigation
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(4 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, if this were a Committee stage, I would have been delighted to engage in a debate with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who is a class act at presenting a case even though he might not believe in it. He is a lovely man. I would have taken issue with him on the 2012 Act—maybe not all of it, but a significant part of it.
I congratulate my noble friend Lord Darzi on his report. It is an honest report about the state of the NHS currently, whatever the genesis of that might be. As this is a Statement, I can only ask a question. One of the areas the report refers to is the need for capital investment. This has been neglected for some time, and without it, we are unlikely to be able to deliver quality care in all the aspects the report seeks. So, what is the Government’s plan for capital investment in the NHS?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I begin by agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Patel, in his assessment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, as I am sure your Lordships’ House does. On the issue of capital, the total maintenance backlog stands at £11.6 billion, an increase of nearly 14% on the previous year. As I mentioned in my opening comments, this is holding back the productivity, ability and capacity of the National Health Service. Our financial situation is well documented, but we have asked the department and NHS England to review the health service’s capital requirements, and that includes NHS England’s assessment of long-term estate needs across a range of areas. We will have to establish the position and where we are to go from there, but I assure the noble Lord of the importance of this matter.
Palliative and End-of-life Care: Funding
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(5 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
The Prime Minister has already reiterated his commitment to allow time for a Private Member’s Bill and a free vote. I recognise that this is an extremely sensitive issue with deeply held views on the various sides of the debate. Our commitment is to ensure that any debate on assisted dying in Parliament will take place in a broader context of access to high-quality palliative and end-of-life care and that we will have robust safeguards to protect vulnerable groups, if the will of Parliament is that the law should change.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, the Minister mentioned funding—I am glad that the Government will look at funding—as well as the NHS England dashboard. Both are processes that do not deliver care, particularly for children who require hospice and end-of-life care. I will give an example that the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, briefly referred to. Because NHS England has devolved funding to ICBs, average funding for ICBs supporting hospices for children is £149, with a range from £18 to £376 per case. ICBs are legally bound to deliver hospice care, but the accountability to do so is not there—and that is what NHS England needs to focus on.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will ensure that my colleague, the Minister of State for Care, is fully aware of the comments that he and other noble Lords have made today. They will form part of our looking at the situation to make sure that services—not just processes—are provided.
Smoking: Public Places
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(5 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am glad that the noble Baroness welcomes the direction of travel. As regards the specifics that she seeks, those will be forthcoming in the very near future. However, it is important to remind ourselves that the tobacco industry, for example, was very vociferous in its opposition to indoor smoke-free legislation and argued that it would be disastrous for hospitality, but, as I mentioned, it had almost no impact, and in some sectors it had a positive impact. As my noble friend said earlier, the response of the public, the way they approach this matter and their understanding are also crucial.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, tempted me to get up. In wishing him a happy birthday, I suggest that his longevity might not be related to his cigar and cigarette smoking. The statistics are quite clear: smoking causes immense harm to those who indulge in it, with not only 10,000 lung cancers a year but tens of thousands of chronic lung diseases. It is right that we have a policy that eliminates cigarette smoking altogether.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am glad that the noble Lord welcomes the Bill, and I hope that he will bring his expertise and support when it is before the House. This will be a matter of great debate but also one of consultation.
NHS: Breast Screening Programme
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(5 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
It is important to ensure that the service is there for those who are at greater risk. The noble Baroness is right to refer to the growing interest in and potential use of AI, which is indeed very exciting. The National Screening Committee is very aware of this point. The committee is working with the National Institute for Health and Care Research and NHS England, and has designed a research project to see whether AI can be safely used to read mammograms in the breast screening programme, and whether that is acceptable both to women and to clinicians. That work will continue.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, I join others in commending the work that Breast Cancer Now has done in improving outcomes for women through breast screening and improving breast cancer outcomes. However, the problem remains when it comes to wider issues about care of patients with cancers. We know that early diagnosis achieves the best results for all cancers, yet we are woefully low in the percentage of people who are picked up with early cancers. There is another more serious issue, which is unwarranted variations in the care of all cancer patients. Unwarranted variation is when care that is clearly demonstrated to be effective in reducing death rates is not given to cancer patients. That has to be absolutely unacceptable. Eliminating unwarranted variation in cancer care ought to be one of the performance measures that integrated care boards are measured on—I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, is listening.
NHS Blood and Transplant Service: Blood Stocks
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(6 months, 4 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
The noble Baroness is right in her observations. What I can say is that, while there has been a dramatic and somewhat sustained increase in the need for O-group blood, that is now improving. There has not been a negative effect on elective surgery; I think that is an important reassurance. In the future, obviously cyberattacks are going to be something that we are going to have to always be mindful of. That is why the service, at my request, is working to come up with plans for greater resilience, and such work is already ongoing within the department and across government.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as a country, we should be pleased that, throughout the four nations of the United Kingdom, we are self-sufficient now in blood and all blood products and do not have to import, as we used to in the past? Furthermore, the problem that occurred was because, apparently, demands became suddenly high and the stocks were there for about only 1.4 days; normally, they are there for about four days. For a person being transfused, it is better if they are transfused with freshly donated blood, rather than blood that has been on the shelf, because it will last in their bodies for longer. The problem, particularly for recipients and donors of O-group blood, was, I hope, temporary and will be addressed.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I assure the noble Lord that it is indeed a temporary problem. However, it is likely the alert will go on for a little while yet, not least because, as I mentioned, we can benefit from keeping it in place. I absolutely associate myself with the assessment that it is so much better to be self-sufficient within the United Kingdom, and that will be of great benefit. It is important to realise that this is a situation that we must live with but not be at the mercy of. I also assure the noble Lord and the House that this is because of external factors and not internal factors to do with the service, as was the case in 2022.
Coronavirus: UK Deaths
Debate between Baroness Merron and Lord Patel(6 months, 4 weeks ago)
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Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his kind welcome and I hear his disappointment that it is not my noble friend Lord Vallance—who will be extremely flattered—answering. On the matter of lockdowns, I start by paying tribute to the British public; it was they who rallied to ensure that lockdowns could save lives. Before Oral Questions, I met with the Chief Medical Officer to discuss the very point that the noble Lord has raised. I say to the House that, when looking at other countries, it is very important to consider the complexity of comparison; it is just not possible to draw direct comparisons. But what I can say is that we are of course waiting for the Covid inquiry, which will shine a light on a number of the matters that the noble Lord has raised.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, on a previous occasion when the noble Lord asked the same Question and cited the Swedish mortality rates, I cited a study carried out in Scandinavia comparing the Swedish model with Scandinavian countries that implemented lockdowns. It clearly showed that the death rates were lower in those Scandinavian countries that implemented lockdowns. To satisfy the noble Lord today, I asked ChatGPT to compile all the evidence. It said:
“In summary, while lockdowns during COVID-19 were effective in reducing death rates from the virus itself, they also had complex and varied impacts on overall public health. The net effect on mortality rates includes both the direct benefits of reduced transmission and the indirect consequences of restricted mobility and access to healthcare”.
Will the Minister agree that there is now some evidence that lockdowns were effective in reducing mortality?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his informed observations. It is true to say that every Government were making decisions based on balance and that, with that, as the noble Lord said, not locking down would have meant that more lives would have been lost. It is important to put on record that the clear majority of professional opinion in this country was that lockdowns absolutely had their place. Even though there was a balance in terms of difficulties with mental health, access to services and the impact on the economy, in Opposition we supported the then Government, as we would in any national emergency.