Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Meacher and Lord Cormack

Lords Hansard _ Part 1 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 170 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to which I have added my name.

As the noble Lord made clear, there is no realistic prospect of a Committee day for my Assisted Dying Bill. This makes the point that the current procedures limiting Private Members’ Bills to Fridays do not enable important legislation such as the Assisted Dying Bill to reach the statute book.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, introduced his amendment brilliantly. It leaves me only to reiterate that we are not discussing the pros and cons of assisted dying this evening. The House is expected to rise at 1.30 tomorrow morning. I hope for the sake of everybody in this House that noble Lords on both sides of the assisted dying debate will resist the temptation to get into such a debate—that is not as what this amendment is about. We are debating whether it is acceptable that there is no procedure at present to enable the Westminster Parliament to test the willingness of both houses to pass such a significant and popular piece of legislation. We know that not only Scotland, which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned, but Jersey and even the Isle of Man have procedures to enable them to pass an assisted dying law, and all those three are likely to pass such legislation within the next one to three years.

We therefore ask noble Lords: do we really think it is satisfactory that the Westminster Parliament is hamstrung without a procedure for Parliament properly to debate a Bill to legalise assisted dying for terminally ill people who are mentally competent and who are suffering unbearably? For Westminster to be upstaged on such an important and popular human rights issue by our much smaller neighbours is surely unconscionable. Amendment 170 from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, deserves our support.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I oppose this amendment. Much as I admire my noble friend Lord Forsyth and fully understand the reasons why he has brought this before your Lordships’ House, it is not a good precedent to bind the Government in one Bill to introduce another a year or so hence. We should think very carefully about the constitutional issues.

We should remember Silverman and we should remember Steel: those Bills began in the other place—an elected House. An initiative of this sort should come from the elected House and not be imposed upon it by an unelected House. I do not think anybody would question my devotion to this House. I believe passionately in it. I believe passionately in an appointed House, as we are. I admire enormously the variety of expertise and experience that is in your Lordships’ House. However, we are not the elected House. I agree that it would be entirely reasonable in the elected House for time to be sought from government. The last time they debated this there was a fairly emphatic result, and it was not in favour of having an assisted dying Bill.

Much as we can admire the total sincerity of those who are committed to the principle of assisted suicide—I happen not to be of their number—it is very dangerous for us to begin in this House changing constitutional precedent by obliging government to introduce a Bill. Therefore, I urge your Lordships not to support this amendment.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Baroness Meacher and Lord Cormack

Report stage
Wednesday 12th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, Amendment 103 seeks to ensure that the regular action plans on restorative justice provided by the Ministry of Justice until 2008 be restored and also that they should be published and a report produced on progress on the previous action plan as well. It is a more modest amendment than the one I moved in Committee. At that point, we wanted the Government to produce action plans every three years; we are now talking about every five years, which at least reduces the pressure on the department. The amendment would be an enormous improvement on the complete absence of national leadership on this issue since 2018.

But, first, what is restorative justice? It is an interpersonal approach that enables people who have been a victim of criminal or other harmful behaviour to meet the perpetrator, generally face to face, and others closely involved in the case to ask questions of that perpetrator and express how the incident affected them personally. It also enables perpetrators to express what was going on for them when they committed their crime or whatever they did and also to listen and understand the personal impact of that action, so that something that was a very impersonal action turns into something very personal. That is in fact a very important point.

Restorative justice is very much a voluntary process. No one is forced into it—both the victim and the perpetrator have to want to go through it. It can also go alongside other criminal justice activities or procedures. It is highly cost effective; for every pound spent on it, £8 are saved for the criminal justice system. That seems a very good reason for the Minister to take this amendment very seriously, as I hope he will, albeit I will not press it to a vote.

Why do we need the amendment included in this legislation? Every PCC area in England and Wales has a local restorative justice provider which takes referrals for restorative justice. Youth offending teams have a member of staff who leads on it. The victims’ code of practice from 2020 entitles every victim of crime to be informed about restorative justice and have access to it. However, this is simply not happening. The Office for National Statistics data showed, I think in 2020, that only 5% of victims are aware of being told anything about restorative justice at all. I hope the Minister will agree that that really is not satisfactory when these victims have a right to that information.

This problem seems to be driven by a lack of strategic direction from the centre. That is the whole point of this amendment. Also, the Ministry of Justice ceased to provide any funding to PCCs to support these important services. Before introducing the PCSC Bill, the Government published a White Paper highlighting the importance of restorative justice:

“We believe restorative justice is an important part of the justice system and has significant benefits both for the victim and for the rehabilitation of offenders.”


That is absolutely right. We know that reoffending drops by 14% if people have been involved in restorative justice. That is where the £8 saving for every £1 spent comes from. The White Paper went on to refer to opportunities to increase the use of restorative justice by using deferred sentencing and setting restorative conditions as part of out-of-court disposals.

Despite all this, restorative justice has been absent from the Bill. Can the Minister explain why it was promoted in the White Paper but does not feature in the Bill? I hope he will want to put this right. The amendment is relatively minor in its impact on the Ministry of Justice, yet it could have really far-reaching impacts, both for victims and for perpetrators. I hope the Minister will look favourably on Amendment 103.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I made a very brief reference to restorative justice in one of our debates on Monday. I am glad to have an opportunity to comment briefly on the amendment just moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. I agree with her wholeheartedly. We should always do everything we can to keep people out of prison; to repeat myself from Monday, although sending people to prison is the punishment and the aim is rehabilitation, it does not always work like that. I know that from experience in my former constituency, which had a very large prison—Featherstone—and a young offender institution at Brinsford just a mile or so away. I believe a lot of the young people in Brinsford would have benefited enormously by not going to prison and would have benefited from restorative justice.

I became totally convinced in this view when I had the privilege to be the chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee for the last of my Parliaments in the other place, 2005 to 2010. I saw at first hand the effect of restorative justice in Northern Ireland, and a lot of young people who would perhaps have gone on to a long life of crime were rehabilitated and came to terms with their victims. As the noble Baroness said, there has to be agreement from both sides, as it were, but it was wholly beneficial in a vast number of cases.

Following the White Paper to which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, referred, it seems very strange indeed that there is no provision or recognition in the fairly massive Bill before us. One of my criticisms of the Bill is that it is too long. It should be three Bills rather than one—but that is another story and we have touched on that in the past. But although the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said that she will not press this to a Division—I do not dissent from her on that—I hope nevertheless that my noble friend the Minister will be able to make some favourable and encouraging comments about the importance of restorative justice and its place in the criminal justice system.

Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Debate between Baroness Meacher and Lord Cormack

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher]

None of those Motions was on the Budget. That is the constraint on this House as I understand it. Had these provisions been in the Budget they would have gone through the normal procedures and this House would have had a different role. That is the crucial point—here we are dealing with a statutory instrument.

There are four Motions on the Order Paper today. My Motion clearly leaves the matter in the hands of the elected House. The justification for a delay is that the House of Commons will have a full-day debate and a vote on these issues on Thursday. I understand that dozens of Conservative Back-Benchers are urging the Chancellor to adjust the tax credit reforms to protect the most vulnerable. Yes, there have been three votes on tax credits in the House of Commons, won by the Government. However, Conservative MPs—not me—say they did not have the information they needed when they voted for the cuts. I hear that many of them are now livid about this. The third vote was last Tuesday. Conservative MPs made it clear they wanted adjustments to the tax credit cuts but they kept their voting powder dry anticipating the vote next Thursday.

It is extraordinary that at least eight Conservative MPs—

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, this just is not the case. The fact is that there was a vote in the other place last week. There was a clear majority and not a single Conservative Member voted in the sense the noble Baroness is indicating.

[Baroness Meacher]

I apologise to the noble Lord, whom I greatly respect, but I did not imply that the Conservative MPs had voted against the Government. I was saying quite clearly that they had not voted for an Opposition Motion; they kept their voting powder dry because they knew that a cross-party Motion was being considered on Thursday with a full day for debate and a vote. Even with a majority of 13 after the death of my former husband last week, this wipes out that majority.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Meacher and Lord Cormack

Friday 16th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I want to make one brief point. I agree with the speakers who have contributed so far that we need clarity and truth. The issue here is the decision to be made. If someone wants to commit suicide, they are deciding whether or not they wish to die. This Bill is not about that at all. It is about people who are dying, and the only question for them is how they die and whether they can die with dignity. That is an entirely different question, and it is extremely important that the Bill is absolutely clear about that distinction.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I hate to cross swords with the noble Baroness, for whom I have enormous respect, but frankly she is wrong. This is about accelerating a death by wilful means, and there is no case for ambiguity here. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, has made a powerful speech and I endorse all that he said. There is no case for ambiguity. We are talking about terminally ill people who have decided— often, I imagine, after long and careful thought and in consideration of their families—that they want to bring forward the termination. That is suicide, and they are going to be assisted. It would be in the interests not only of clarity but of honesty to make the Bill the “assisted suicide Bill”, because then we would know what we are talking about and people in the country would know what we are talking about. There is a powerful case for the Bill and a powerful case against it, but there is no case at all for fudging it.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Baroness Meacher and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly in view of the hour; I am sure that the Minister and everyone else would like to get away shortly. The amendment provides for a 100% council tax rebate, fully funded by central government, for people with out-of-work incomes at the income support or JSA level, or when the universal credit is implemented, at the maximum award level under Section 3 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012. I should say that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, had planned to speak to this amendment but at this time he has had to go to an appointment.

The Government may argue that this is a “money” amendment that would increase government spending, but I would refute that suggestion. The basic income of people depending on JSA, for example, as your Lordships will know, is £71 per week for a single person and £111.45 per week for a couple. This is some £20 per week below the Joseph Rowntree assessment of income required to cover the basic costs of food, heating and travel, and one has only to think that there will be a few more costs than that to realise that these people are in dire trouble and need. Such households cannot and will not pay a tax on their home out of that tiny income. I understand that already 2 million households are failing to pay their council tax, a number which will put 2010-11 in the record books for the level of council tax default—that is £1 billion lost to taxpayers, a very large sum—while 3 million liability orders are being sought annually by local authorities through the courts, a 37% increase between 2000 and 2007. The poorest citizens will simply swell these numbers. The amendment would therefore not increase public spending, and that is before we consider the subsequent costs that the Government would have to pick up when these poor households failed.

The Government’s statement refers to transitional council tax benefits between 0% and 8.5%, which to me suggests a positive number. Whatever the number, though, it will be only for a limited period and therefore, as I hope the Minister will appreciate, does not in any way address the concerns that I and others have. I know that she does not really like to be reminded that this is the poll tax mark two, but that is what it will be unless this amendment is accepted by the Government, who could then bring forward their own amendment. I suppose you could say that we are trying to rescue the Government from themselves.

The New Policy Institute refers in its recent report to the return of one of the principles of the poll tax: that every household will pay. It was surely that principle that lay at the heart of the revulsion of the country against the poll tax and which brought down the Prime Minister of the day—Mrs Thatcher, as she was then. It is not surprising, then, that John Major promised Parliament that the council tax would provide up to 100% benefit for the unemployed and those on low incomes. Council tax benefit was expected to protect the poorest in the community, particularly from enforcement action in the courts. I cannot imagine anything more distressing, when you have no money and cannot buy any food, than spending your time going to court to defend yourself.

Now, however, the principle of the DCLG seems to be that instead of a 100% council tax benefit for the poorest, all shall pay something, and the favoured minimum has been 20%. My feeling is that once the transitional plans and arrangements are over, that is the sort of figure that we will probably return to, which means something like £5 per week for these very poor households to find out of income that I believe none of us in this House could survive on. Why issue demands if it is any less than that? Why issue a demand for £1 or £2 a week when even those sums cannot and will not be paid by these people on the lowest of incomes? Already these households will be losing benefit as a result of the move from RPI to CPI as the index used to upgrade benefits. Also many will lose from the housing benefit cap, as my noble friend Lord Best always argues so eloquently. There are disability benefit cuts and lots of other cuts. It is difficult to imagine how they are going to cope.

When these poorest households default, as they will, a liability order will be issued adding £120 to the liability. Then the unregulated bailiffs will turn up with a further cost to the household of £75 or £210 depending on whether they have to make a visit. These costs are piled upon council debt of, let us say, £1 to £2 a week or perhaps £4 to £5 a week. I am sure the Minister can see the nonsense of all this. We can call it nonsense, but for the family or household at the other end, it is not nonsense. It must be absolutely terrifying. People who owe small amounts of money at the beginning can find themselves owing thousands of pounds in a relatively short period. I welcome the Government’s statement, but I ask the Minister to assure the House today that she does not want to introduce poll tax mark two and that the Government will provide a 100% council tax benefit for those at the very bottom of the heap. That is what we are asking today. As other noble Lords have said, these very poorest people are not the right target for the cuts that, as we all know, were made necessary by the banks of this country.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, coming in to listen is fatal. I was very taken by what the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said. As somebody who did not support the introduction of the poll tax in Scotland and voted against it on every conceivable occasion thereafter, I would hate to think that we are in any sense moving in that direction. I say briefly, but with great feeling, that I hope the Minister, for whom I have genuinely high regard, will be able to give us some comfort in her response, either now or on Third Reading, because the problems that the noble Baroness sketched are for us theoretical, but for those who suffer, they can make the difference between a life and an existence.