Access to Musical Education in School

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the way that this debate is evolving, and I suspect it will go on in the same way, is already demonstrating that everyone—in this Room, anyway, and I include the Minister in that, no matter that I may not entirely agree with what she is going to say in the end—is not only convinced by the importance of music education but trying in their own way, to the best of their individual ability, to promote it. It is just that there are an awful lot of different ways of doing that, and they are not terribly joined up. I pay great tribute to my noble friend Lord Boateng who has set out the agenda very clearly, to the noble Baroness, Lady Fleet, for the work that she is doing, and to everything that we have heard about so far that demonstrates how much is actually going on.

So I hate to start with a “but”, but there is one: there are inequalities, and they are deeply rooted. There are inequalities within the maintained sector because, as we have heard, some schools do very well and choose to give special emphasis to music and effectively make themselves specialists, but others choose not to or feel they cannot. The point is that it is a choice that any school is free to make about music but which no school is free to make about maths, English or science. I do not want to repeat all the evidence and stats about how music has been deprioritised in many state schools, but we have evidence that it has, and that has consequences, many of which have already been mentioned.

I wonder if the Minister has had time to listen to a series of instructive programmes that are currently being rebroadcast on Radio 4 called “Rethinking Music”. She is nodding her head, so I suspect she knows what it is about. I want to make a point about this: one of the key contributors to those programmes is Jamie Njoku-Goodwin, who used to be CEO of UK Music. What does he do now? He is the Prime Minister’s director of strategy. Let us hope that his evident concern about the decline in engagement with music education, which he makes very clear in the programme, will lead him to use his considerable influence within government to help to halt that decline.

I shall make one more point, which is about the inequality between the state sector and the independent sector. My daughter, as I have mentioned before, is a professional musician. Alongside her life as a performer, she provided individual tuition for many years at an independent London day school, which had dozens of music staff. There was virtually no musical skill or genre that students attending that school could not access—at a price, of course. By contrast, her own children, educated in the maintained sector, got music tuition but not at school; they got it because their parents knew it was valuable and were prepared to pay for it. Not everyone can do that.

I know what the Minister will say, and we will all nod along because a lot of what she will want to say is entirely admirable. By the way, I hope she will mention and acknowledge the excellent work being done by arts organisations large and small, charities and indeed churches in providing opportunities for young people to experience and participate in music. Sadly, however, these initiatives, worthy and significant as they are, are no substitute for the proper reinstatement of music into a forward-thinking, broadly based school curriculum from early years to A-level. That is what we need before it is too late.

Education: Advanced British Standard

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The way we are thinking about this programme—I stress again that we need to consult extensively on the detail of it—is that it will offer children much more breadth and time, including a third more teaching time. That means that we can keep around 90% of the content of the current A-level for those going down an academic route and follow the occupational standards for those going down a technical or vocational route. The aim of the programme is to give children much greater choice so that they will still be able to access the same three-year degrees if university is their preferred option but also be well equipped for further technical education or the workplace.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister, in her initial Answer to my noble friend on the Front Bench, referred to the necessity for extensive consultation before the new qualifications can be properly embedded. I am sure she will agree that the burden of changing the arrangements for post-16 education will fall hugely on schools, and particularly on school leaders. Can she tell the House how extensively those people will be consulted? Without wishing to be disrespectful, how much notice will be taken of what they say?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am slightly surprised by the noble Baroness’s last remark. This programme clearly cannot work without the buy-in, understanding and support of school leaderships, so it would be a short-sighted Government who did not pay attention to their reflections on this. I am also slightly surprised by the noble Baroness’s hesitancy, because this approach was in the Labour manifesto of 2010 and recommended by the Times Education Commission.

Teacher Training: Dyslexia and Autism

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I would be delighted to arrange a meeting with my noble friend to discuss the Synergy programme. She is right that children with special educational needs might have specific academic challenges, but, inevitably, behavioural challenges can be linked to those. We are working very closely with schools to make sure that, in respect of behaviour and attendance, those children feel as supported and included as possible.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that young people with a diagnosis of autism or ADHD often also exhibit signs of quite significant mental health issues. The two are not the same. In creating an education, health and care plan for such young people, a number of different kinds of input are necessary, from not just the school but mental health professionals and others. Does she accept that the problem identified by this Question is partly if not wholly one of capacity? Even if they have people trained to do this kind of work, schools are under enormous pressure and find it very difficult to meet the proper demands of an EHCP. Will she look into how that capacity issue could be alleviated?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises two issues: the importance of multi-agency input and co-ordination, and capacity. Our Special Educational Needs and Disabilities and Alternative Provision Improvement Plan aims to address exactly those, giving clarity and confidence to parents as to what they can expect from the system, and support for teachers, including a number of practice guides, the initial ones looking at mental health and wellbeing, autism, and speech and communication needs. So I think we are addressing all of the points raised by the noble Baroness.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I meant to declare my interest: a member of my family has an EHCP.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My Lords, I was a secondary school SENCO, back in the bad old days of very little specialist training and much ignorance of dyslexia and other learning difficulties. I was privileged to do part of my postgraduate training with the late Violet Brand, who was a renowned pioneer in dyslexia; it was very rare and ground-breaking. In the Minister’s initial response to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, she referred to the role of SENCO. My understanding is that the Government have recently lowered the national SENCO qualification standard. I was going to ask the Minister why the Government are dumbing down this critical role, but I should probably revert to asking her to clarify the position, because both the British Dyslexia Association and I seem to have a different take—the standard has not gone up, it is actually being lowered.

School Uniform Policies

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Monday 12th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I said, schools know their communities, and we trust them to make the right judgments for their pupils and staff.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, in her response to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, the noble Baroness mentioned environmental sustainability. Will she accept that the cheapest clothes available, not just for school uniforms but in many other situations, are on the whole made from the least environmentally sustainable fabrics? Will she accept that, if there is to be an increase in recycling and reusing school uniforms—which I think we all agree would be very good—it would be very much in everyone’s interests if they were made from the highest-quality fabrics? They would then last longer in the recycling process.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We have to strike a balance for parents who need to send their children to school in a uniform that fits and is suitable, encouraging them to use second-hand uniforms wherever possible, while of course considering the environment.

Free Music Education

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Monday 12th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her suggestion. The department is very open to working with organisations such as Rambert and is very grateful to them for the work they do. Dance is included within the physical education curriculum and it includes specific requirements at key stages 1 through 3. Schools have flexibility about how they deliver this curriculum, but I would be happy to meet my noble friend and follow up her suggestion.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, in her last but one answer, the Minister observed that the creative industries do not have any trouble in recruiting. I point out to her that they do. There is a significant skills shortage across the creative industries, which causes considerable concern. She might not necessarily agree, but many people believe that a lot of that is to do with the fact that the arts, and in particular music, are not given the privileged status within our schools that she imagines they should have and tells the House they have.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I apologise if I gave the impression that there are no skills pressures in the creative industries. I just pointed out that our creative industries are world beating and are able to recruit talent in a way that allows them to be so.

Performing Arts: GCSE and A-level Qualifications

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is right that we absolutely should be working together. I thank all the charities and voluntary organisations, which are so varied and bring so much richness to our children’s lives, including the Royal Society of Church Music.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

On that point, will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the extraordinary work being done by many arts organisations across the whole country in engaging with schools and the education system? However, often what they are doing is filling a gap, and their ability to engage is very dependent on individual head teachers’ willingness to make time and resources available for what they have on offer to be delivered to their young people. Will she acknowledge that at the moment the deficit that is being discussed in this Question is being filled largely by arts organisations, which are themselves under enormous pressure?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I just do not fully accept the deficit that the noble Baroness describes. I absolutely agree with her that arts organisations bring an important, valuable and different perspective, but schools themselves are also doing an extraordinary job. As we can see from our incredibly successful creative industries, we are getting something right.

Apprenticeship Levy

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Tuesday 25th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Engineering and manufacturing technologies account for about 14% of all the apprenticeship starts. Last year that was about 49,000 apprentices.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the creative industries in a number of her earlier answers. I believe she said most recently that 1,500 starts are expected within those industries. Can she tell the House—and if not, can she please write on the matter—how many of those 1,500 are being undertaken in small and medium-sized enterprises within the creative industries?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Given that the creative industries are full of small and medium-sized enterprises, I assume that it is the vast majority. If it is different from that, I will write to the noble Baroness.

Children: Bereavement Support in Schools

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hear what the noble Lord says. I am slightly surprised, because I think there has been a real focus by Ofsted on safeguarding in its broadest sense and the important pastoral role that schools provide—but I will, of course, take what he says back.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s answers, and indeed the questions, have focused, understandably, on the impact on individual bereaved children. What is the Government’s view of the impact on the classes of which those children are part? Very often, the distress exhibited by one child can be transmitted to others, who often do not fully understand what they are witnessing and sometimes have great difficulty in managing it.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. Indeed, in thinking about this, I was also thinking about situations which affect the whole class—for example, where a member of the class tragically is killed. The very valid point she raised also affects teachers, not just pupils. I come back to the fact that schools need to implement a strong, pastoral approach across their school community, balancing their own insight and the relationships and trust they have with pupils and colleagues with the resources in their local community and the national resources that we signpost and provide.

Secondary Schools: Autistic Pupils

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord raises two connected issues. Formal diagnosis of autism in this country needs to be done by a medical professional—a doctor. The noble Lord is absolutely right; that does not need to slow down interventions to support a child where there is apparently autism, even before it is confirmed. The Government announced a contract with a number of leading charities in this area to provide universal training across the teaching workforce in both schools and FE, and 60,000 people have been trained so far since April 2022.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, on this question of diagnosis, which the Minister has referred to, I am sure she is aware that it can take quite a long time before it is even seen to be necessary to seek a diagnosis, that this is particularly true with girls—children and young people up to teenage years—and that, once the need for a diagnosis has been identified, it can take a very long time to get it. Even if you are prepared—some people are, but not everybody can—to go for a private route to secure that diagnosis, it can sometimes be a year or two, three or four years before that diagnosis can be made. Can she see any way forward to changing that situation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The whole strategic focus of the improvement plan that we will be publishing in response to the SEND and AP Green Paper consultation is to address the problem we see today of late diagnosis, late intervention and needs escalating; that is absolutely our aspiration. On the diagnosis of girls, we are running two pilots at the moment, one testing new screening tools and the other seeing whether we can adapt existing ones, because we are all aware that four times as many boys are diagnosed as girls.

Family: Protective Effect

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I will certainly take the point that my noble friend has raised back to the department. I am delighted to express my support for the incredibly important, difficult and sensitive work that child contact centres carry out.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

To take the Minister back to the answer she gave on the subject of mental health services, particularly for young people, she will be aware that the real difficulty in providing those services is that there is an insufficiently large workforce. There are simply not enough professionally qualified people to deliver the kinds of services that young people very badly need. In what way are the various funds that the Minister has referred to going to help with that problem?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a fair point, and I am happy to write to her setting out in more detail the Government’s strategy on expanding the workforce. She will appreciate that this falls more within the Department of Health workforce strategy, but I am happy to expand on that. Also, there are a number of very sophisticated and helpful digital applications that can help support young people in addressing the mental health challenges they face.