Children and Families Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, in this group. They follow the original theme of the noble Lord, Lord Low. The amendment is intended simply to ensure that children are consulted about issues that affect them—in other words, the importance of listening to the voice of the child. I cannot help feeling that the amendments should be unnecessary, given the Government's stated position on the rights of the child. The coalition Government stated in December 2010 that they would give due consideration to the Convention on the Rights of the Child when developing new legislation and policy, while the Government's policy for youth supports the importance of involving children and young people, including those under 16, in decision-making processes. As the noble Lord, Lord Storey, said, the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities states that disabled children should be provided with assistance to help them participate in decision-making.

I turn briefly to an interesting global strategy on children’s commissioners published recently by UNICEF. I should declare an interest as a trustee of UNICEF. There are two pithy quotations. The first is:

“Children’s participation in decisions that affect them is beneficial to both children and society. It helps strengthen children’s self-esteem and builds their capacity to contribute”.

The second quotation is:

“Participation is also a critical channel for accountability of decision makers at the local and national level”.

How much does that apply to children with special needs?

Successive Governments have become much better at seeking to involve children and young people in decisions that affect them. I am concerned about clauses, mentioned a moment ago by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that seem to exclude younger children from participating in decisions about special educational needs. We cannot make legislation involving children unless it is child-proofed. I shall not go through all the clauses where younger children are excluded from consultation—the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has already done that—but I want to make a few supplementary points. In a recent inquiry by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Children, which I chair, children were very vocal about their wish to be consulted, whether in education, social care, medical care or the legal system.

Professionals involved in that inquiry who worked with children recognised the value of contributions from children and young people, including those with special educational needs. I have heard people say that children under 16, because of a lack of maturity or disability, cannot be capable of having a say in decisions. I cannot agree. As parents, grandparents or relatives of children, we have probably all experienced insights from children that have enabled us to make better decisions about their well-being. Children do not have to talk or write to contribute their views. I know of several initiatives that, in order to gain the views of children, have involved drawing, role-play or other non-verbal methods. Again, I think that the Government have not applied their commitment to listening to children in some clauses of the Bill. I hope that they will think again and remedy that.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

I, too, support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and supported by my noble friend Lady Massey. I shall also speak to our Amendments 120 to 122. Amendments 120 and 122 are similar to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Storey: they insert the word “child” or “children” into Clause 32 but, as noble Lords have said, there are other clauses where children seem to be expressly excluded. Amendment 121 would extend the scope of the clause to ensure that information was provided to young people and their parents in a wide variety of ways, as listed in the amendment.

The Minister in the other place said that there was no need specifically to refer to children because the term “young people” includes children. The main issue here, which the Minister has to address in his or her reply, is that the Bill is completely inconsistent on this point. Clauses 32, 36 and 38 refer only to parents and young people. Clause 33 talks about children and young people in its title and throughout. The Minister may say, “Ah yes, but that’s not intentional and the code of practice makes it clear”. Unfortunately, the code of practice does not make it clear because the code is also inconsistent. It is a bit more consistent than the Bill because it talks more often about children and young people than the Bill, which chops and changes. Still, though, certain sections, which are not specifically related to people over the age of 16, talk about the engagement of young people, not children and young people.

So there is complete inconsistency throughout the wording of the Bill and the code of practice. If that is not intended, it should be corrected. If the Bill is enacted as it is, a local authority provider reading that legislation could reasonably assume that it was an intended distinction—a distinction that we have all said we would not support.

A number of people, including my noble friend Lady Massey and myself, have had a lot of experience in engaging quite young children and in producing child-friendly material that young children, including those with a learning disability, can engage with. You can get views and experiences from them that are very meaningful to service providers, and they should be captured. The Bill and the code of practice should be very clear that throughout its provisions it is children, young people and parents whose engagement we want to seek in the provisions, the review of the provisions, the experience of the provisions, the monitoring and so on.