Children and Families Bill

Baroness Hughes of Stretford Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

65: Clause 15, page 15, line 10, after “provisions” insert “and sibling placement arrangements”

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[Baroness Hughes of Stretford (Lab)]

My Lords, I will not dwell on this because it rehearses a theme that we spent a great length of time on in discussing Part 1 of the Bill—that is, the importance for children, when their families break up or they are taken into care, of keeping in contact with their birth family as appropriate, particularly with their siblings. The Minister was not the Minister discussing the Bill with us when we talked about Part 1. Therefore, he did not hear the strength of feeling across the Committee on this issue, which was such that the Minister—the noble Lord, Lord Nash—acknowledged it and agreed to take the issue of sibling contact back and look at it. So I hope, when the Minister sums up, that I will not need to rehearse the arguments; I hope he will take that on trust and, similarly, look at it with his colleague, the Minister in the Department for Education, and come back on Report.

The amendment is, however, different from the amendment that we talked about in relation to Part 1. It would require the court, at the stage of considering permanence for a child, to pay particular attention to any siblings and where they are, and to continued contact between siblings when making or approving the permanence plan for a child through a care order. Amendment 65 would therefore insert “and sibling placement arrangements” after “provisions”. It is very important that this issue is considered not only by social workers and professionals, as we discussed when we looked at the amendment to Part 1, but particularly at the court stage. Clause 15, as it is worded, does not include arrangements for siblings to be placed together where possible. It does not include anything that requires the court specifically to consider the arrangements for brothers and sisters.

It is essential that this is considered at the court stage because after that, while there are a number of possible opportunities for detailed arrangements in permanence plans to be considered, there are none really to go back and address this issue. Independent reviewing officers, for example, do not have the same authority as the courts to scrutinise care plans and they cannot take the matter back to court directly if they consider that the care plan is deficient in one way or another. They can only refer the matter to a CAFCASS officer who can then maybe bring a claim on behalf of the child if they consider that there are grounds for judicial review or a free-standing claim under the Human Rights Act. In practice, as I am sure Members can appreciate, that power is rarely used. Therefore, it is very important to get these issues about continued sibling contact right in at the front end when the courts are asked to scrutinise the arrangements for permanence when thinking about a care plan.

I will not rehearse all the arguments as to why that is important. I suspect the Minister may appreciate them. I will, though, rehearse one statistic that we used in the previous debate. I hope that the Minister will not say that the courts will do this anyway. The figures that we looked at then suggested that some 63% of children who go into care and have siblings who go into care lose contact with those siblings. Clearly, at various points in the process—in court, through social workers, through the placements—contact is being broken for the vast majority of children who go into care as part of a sibling group. I hope that the Minister will be prepared to look at this and respond positively to it. I beg to move.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness in this amendment. At his request, I will also speak to the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. Is that separate? It is separate, so I will speak entirely to this amendment.

At the adoption stage, Part 1 of the Bill, a number of us spoke about the importance of sibling contact. I made the point—I make no apology for making it again to a different Minister—that the Select Committee on Adoption Legislation took informal evidence from a considerable number of children. One of the points made both by the group who were adopted and the group in care concerned the enormous sorrow they felt at losing contact with the siblings they knew. Very sensibly, one girl said, “I am not concerned about the siblings born after I left the family but I am very worried about my brothers and sisters”. Another child was almost in tears as he was so worried about his younger brother, not knowing what was happening to him and nobody being able to tell him. He said he woke up at night worrying about his brother. That is not acceptable. Therefore, it is important at each stage that those in charge of children or in charge of making arrangements and connections with children have the siblings in mind. The judge may well say that the social workers have given him all sorts of good reasons why they are not going to meet, but it is important that the judge asks. There is no requirement on the judge, or indeed the magistrates in the family proceedings court, to ask that question unless it is in legislation.

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[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

I thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, for their important contributions. I thank the Minister for that response; I am grateful that he will look at this issue again. However, I have a couple of comments that I hope he will take with him.

The Minister said that Clause 15 is about the court looking at the permanence provisions. Many people would argue that such is the importance to young people of continued contact between siblings—not necessarily joint placements, which may not be possible, but particularly if they are not possible, then arrangements for them to keep in contact with each other—that when it comes to permanence provisions it has a unique relevance to the stability of the placement, the well-being of the child and the security that the child feels. It means that the child in that placement, as the noble and learned Baroness graphically conveyed from her conversations with young people, does not have that placement clouded by anxiety and concern about where brothers and sisters are. This is a unique detail in the whole panoply of details that have to be considered in permanence placements.

I say this with great respect for the Minister but, frankly, I do not accept the argument that to include the provision to require judges to ask the question—that is all that is being asked here—would delay proceedings. That sounds like a very official argument, and it is a weak one. In the amendment we simply suggest, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said, that the judge should ask, “Does this child have any siblings? If so, where are they, what are the plans, are they going to be placed together and, if not, what contact is being arranged for them?”. If the judge started the consideration with those simple questions, I do not think that that would precipitate any delay at all but it would elevate the issue to an importance that would require the professionals dealing with the detail then to have to consider the detail and, if necessary, reply to the court about what arrangements they had made for sibling conduct. With that clarification of what we are seeking here, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 65 withdrawn.

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[Lord Nash (Con)]

My Lords, this is our first debate on Part 3, and it has been excellent and extensive. I should particularly like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, for her opening remarks. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed and shared their great experience and expertise. I am also grateful to those who have taken time over the summer to help me, as the new boy, to understand the issues and the history in this area, particularly the noble Lords, Lord Low, Lord Rix and Lord Ramsbotham, the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, and my noble friends Lady Cumberlege, Lady Eaton and Lord Storey.

Before moving my Amendments 241A and 274 and respond to specific points in the debate, I hope that the Committee will find it helpful if I set out the context of our reform programme. Part 3 will deliver the biggest change to the system since the reforms that flowed from the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, in 1978. Her work transformed the lives of many children and young people, allowing them to enjoy the benefits that a high quality education can bring. We have seen other changes in law and society that have shaped this country’s view of disabled children, including such important legislation as the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and the Equality Act 2010 and, of course, the great success of the Paralympics last year.

The changes we have seen for this group of children in our lifetimes and the challenges ahead were brought home strongly to me when I visited Chailey Heritage School with my noble friend Lady Cumberlege at the start of the school year. There I saw an institution that was founded out of charity to provide training in crafts to children born “crippled”, as it was termed then in the East End of London. Now it offers outstanding education, care and support to children and young people with the most profound and complex needs who, with excellent teaching, care and the aid of modern technology, are being supported to learn and to fulfil their great potential. Disabled children and children with special educational needs must all be treated first as individuals. They all have different needs. It is the Government’s concern, as I know it is of everyone in this room, to ensure that our services are supporting each of them and their families in the best way they possibly can.

I pay tribute to the work and legacy of the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, and to the tireless work of many of your Lordships in championing the rights of children with SEN and disabled children. I also know that I do not need to tell you that, despite all the successes of the past 30 years, the current system is not working as it should. Fundamentally, successful reform will be about a change of culture. As we all know, it is tempting to think that by legislating a word here and a new duty there we can solve complex issues. However, what matters is how professionals work with children and families. Many noble Lords here have direct experience of the struggles that families can face. All of us know people who have had to fight to get the support that their child needs, grappling a faceless and apparently endless bureaucracy in a system that seems set up not to help but to frustrate.

This reform aims to change that. Its simple but ambitious aim is to unite services around the needs of the family, putting children, young people and parents at its heart. Legislation cannot do that alone but the Bill sets the framework to support the right ways of working. The detail is in the code of practice, which I hope noble Lords have now had the opportunity to read. It has been informed by the experience of the pathfinders. They are showing how services can come together and how families can help share the available support. I hope that those noble Lords who were able to hear from some of the pathfinders last week found their experiences both helpful and encouraging. I was struck then, and on my visits to pathfinders in Greenwich and Hertfordshire, how they were working with families to develop support that meets their needs and the impact that that support and the new ways of working were having in a much more co-operative environment.

Turning to the definition of SEN, this group of amendments reflects concerns that some children and young people might miss out on the benefits of the new system. A great many noble Lords have spoken about this and I apologise if I do not mention them all by name. It is not the Government’s intention to prevent any group of disabled children from receiving the support they need. We must ensure that all children who need support to access education because of disability or a special educational need can do so. The definition of SEN is deliberately broad:

“A child or young person has special educational needs if he or she has a learning difficulty or disability which calls for special educational provision to be made for him or her”.

The Bill defines a learning difficulty or disability as,

“a significantly greater difficulty in learning than the majority of others of the same age, or … a disability which prevents or hinders”—

a child or young person—

“from making use of facilities”.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

On that point, I wonder if the Minister will accept—as we talked about when we met him this week, and based on the contributions from others today—that there is a degree of circularity in language and in practice around this definition. As we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and others, very often the access to education and learning implications of a disability are not recognised by schools or local authorities as a special educational need and, under the definition of this Bill, if they are not recognised as a special educational need then they will not fall into the scope of the Bill. This is a big problem that everyone has been trying to clarify. I realise that it is very complex but we need to get to the hub of this. I would be grateful if the Minister could explain, outside the circularity of this language, why the Government are excluding the kind of young people that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and others were referring to.

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[Lord Nash]

The noble Baroness is right that the definition has not substantially changed. Our position is that most disabled children—75%, according to one study—have a special educational need, and the others are covered by other legislation, particularly after the amendment that we tabled today. I would be grateful for guidance on those categories of children that we may have missed and how we could help them further.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

On that point, I think that it would be helpful, if we are to help the Minister, if he could first tell us which other legislation he thinks covers the other 25%, and then we can think about which other groups might not be covered. Is it not anyway the case that what the Government are attempting to introduce here is a new integrated system with a local offer attached? That would still mean that 25% of children could not be avail themselves of the integrated provision in the new integrated system proposed under the Bill.

[Lord Nash]

The Equality Act, the Children Act and the NHS Act are the relevant legislation, but I will provide further details and more granularity on that. I repeat that the Bill is about educational needs—but we will go away to consider this further.

On categories of children who are not covered by existing legislation, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made the point about physiotherapy and missing school, among others. I would like to understand more about whether, in the modern day, children to which she referred would be covered by the Bill or existing legislation. In response to the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Storey about whether special educational provision includes provision to enable children to access education, the answer is yes. I will write to him with more details.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked whether the code of practice is intended to marry up with the Equality Act. The answer is that it does. We believe that it does—and we are clear that we must make appropriate links between SEN and the Equality Act duties in the code of practice, and are happy to look again at the scope for improving the draft code of practice on this.

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[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, in this group. They follow the original theme of the noble Lord, Lord Low. The amendment is intended simply to ensure that children are consulted about issues that affect them—in other words, the importance of listening to the voice of the child. I cannot help feeling that the amendments should be unnecessary, given the Government's stated position on the rights of the child. The coalition Government stated in December 2010 that they would give due consideration to the Convention on the Rights of the Child when developing new legislation and policy, while the Government's policy for youth supports the importance of involving children and young people, including those under 16, in decision-making processes. As the noble Lord, Lord Storey, said, the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities states that disabled children should be provided with assistance to help them participate in decision-making.

I turn briefly to an interesting global strategy on children’s commissioners published recently by UNICEF. I should declare an interest as a trustee of UNICEF. There are two pithy quotations. The first is:

“Children’s participation in decisions that affect them is beneficial to both children and society. It helps strengthen children’s self-esteem and builds their capacity to contribute”.

The second quotation is:

“Participation is also a critical channel for accountability of decision makers at the local and national level”.

How much does that apply to children with special needs?

Successive Governments have become much better at seeking to involve children and young people in decisions that affect them. I am concerned about clauses, mentioned a moment ago by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that seem to exclude younger children from participating in decisions about special educational needs. We cannot make legislation involving children unless it is child-proofed. I shall not go through all the clauses where younger children are excluded from consultation—the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has already done that—but I want to make a few supplementary points. In a recent inquiry by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Children, which I chair, children were very vocal about their wish to be consulted, whether in education, social care, medical care or the legal system.

Professionals involved in that inquiry who worked with children recognised the value of contributions from children and young people, including those with special educational needs. I have heard people say that children under 16, because of a lack of maturity or disability, cannot be capable of having a say in decisions. I cannot agree. As parents, grandparents or relatives of children, we have probably all experienced insights from children that have enabled us to make better decisions about their well-being. Children do not have to talk or write to contribute their views. I know of several initiatives that, in order to gain the views of children, have involved drawing, role-play or other non-verbal methods. Again, I think that the Government have not applied their commitment to listening to children in some clauses of the Bill. I hope that they will think again and remedy that.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

I, too, support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and supported by my noble friend Lady Massey. I shall also speak to our Amendments 120 to 122. Amendments 120 and 122 are similar to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Storey: they insert the word “child” or “children” into Clause 32 but, as noble Lords have said, there are other clauses where children seem to be expressly excluded. Amendment 121 would extend the scope of the clause to ensure that information was provided to young people and their parents in a wide variety of ways, as listed in the amendment.

The Minister in the other place said that there was no need specifically to refer to children because the term “young people” includes children. The main issue here, which the Minister has to address in his or her reply, is that the Bill is completely inconsistent on this point. Clauses 32, 36 and 38 refer only to parents and young people. Clause 33 talks about children and young people in its title and throughout. The Minister may say, “Ah yes, but that’s not intentional and the code of practice makes it clear”. Unfortunately, the code of practice does not make it clear because the code is also inconsistent. It is a bit more consistent than the Bill because it talks more often about children and young people than the Bill, which chops and changes. Still, though, certain sections, which are not specifically related to people over the age of 16, talk about the engagement of young people, not children and young people.

So there is complete inconsistency throughout the wording of the Bill and the code of practice. If that is not intended, it should be corrected. If the Bill is enacted as it is, a local authority provider reading that legislation could reasonably assume that it was an intended distinction—a distinction that we have all said we would not support.

A number of people, including my noble friend Lady Massey and myself, have had a lot of experience in engaging quite young children and in producing child-friendly material that young children, including those with a learning disability, can engage with. You can get views and experiences from them that are very meaningful to service providers, and they should be captured. The Bill and the code of practice should be very clear that throughout its provisions it is children, young people and parents whose engagement we want to seek in the provisions, the review of the provisions, the experience of the provisions, the monitoring and so on.