Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateBaroness Manzoor
Main Page: Baroness Manzoor (Conservative - Life peer)Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Baroness Manzoor Excerpts(5 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Manzoor
That the Grand Committee do consider the Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Could we ask that these are degrouped and that we consider them each individually, please?
Baroness Manzoor
I understand the issue that is being raised. Perhaps I may say that the three sets of regulations bring in very similar provisions but have been drafted separately, as they amend different legislation. I am happy to take each statutory instrument separately. However, just to give advance notice, my speech will be the same.
Perhaps I may begin again. We are debating three sets of regulations which are critical in maintaining patient safety for organs, tissues and cells used to treat patients. The regulations have been developed as part of contingency planning and will be needed if we leave the EU with no agreement in place. If the UK reaches a deal with the EU, the department will revoke or amend these instruments to reflect the deal.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
The Minister has confirmed that these regulations would have a purpose only if there were no deal, so all the time that she and the excellent five civil servants behind her have put in—and they have done a lot of work—will be unnecessary if a deal is agreed. Is that right?
Baroness Manzoor
With all due respect to the noble Lord, of course, as the Government, we have to put in place contingency planning. If the noble Lord will allow me to finish what I am going to say, he will understand what the regulations relate to and the reason we are putting them down.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The Minister has just said that these will be required only if there is no deal. Is that correct?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
So the corollary of that is that all the work that she has done, and that of her predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Shaughnessy—whom we miss; sadly, he is no longer a Minister—and all the work that the civil servants have put in is nugatory: it will be forgotten and wasted if a deal is agreed, which is the Government’s policy. Is that right?
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, I do not know what the deal will be, if it is agreed. All I can do is deal with these SIs. I am not here to talk about the deal or the no-deal. We have done contingency planning as to what would happen to ensure patient safety and organ donations, imports and exports. The SIs relate to that. Perhaps I may continue, if the noble Lord is happy with that answer.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Not really; I am not clear about this. If there is a deal, does it include something that deals with human fertilisation and embryology, which would mean that we do not need this SI? Does a part of the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister—not yet agreed by Parliament but negotiated by the Prime Minister—already cover the substance of this SI, and this SI is relevant only if there is no deal? Is that correct?
Baroness Manzoor
Yes, I have confirmed that to the noble Lord already, but we have to make contingency plans. That is why I am standing before the Committee to explain what we are doing.
Perhaps I may begin again in order to provide the context. We are debating three sets of regulations. They are critical in maintaining patient safety for organs, tissues and cells used to treat patients. These regulations have been developed as part of contingency planning, and will be needed if we leave the EU with no agreement, and I am happy to confirm that again to the noble Lord. If the UK reaches a deal with the EU, the department will revoke or amend these instruments to reflect that deal.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. In view of the fact that the House of Commons voted yesterday against no deal being taken forward—and it is the elected House, we are the subordinate House—does she not think that the right thing to do is to not proceed with these no-deal preparations, but instead to devote the time of the Grand Committee and the House to issues where we can make a difference? Many of us were not able to be present in the Chamber for the opening speeches in the debate on the EU withdrawal deal because of this debate. I might respectfully say that her department would not have to waste all this money and time, and her great devotion to duty, on something which is clearly against the will of the elected House.
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, I understand the point the noble Lord is making, but I disagree with him. This is about contingency planning, and we will move forward in that way. It is right and proper that the Government do this, and any sensible Government would be planning for any eventuality.
Baroness Manzoor
I want to get to the end of what I am going to say. Both noble Lords will have the chance to make their contributions then.
Baroness Manzoor
Well, they may well get answers if they allow me to finish.
These instruments, which will come into force on exit day, will ensure that UK law on organs, tissues and cells functions effectively after exit day, and maintains the same high standards of safety and quality. The instruments are intended to maintain the current regulatory framework across the UK, so UK organisations such as hospitals, stem cell laboratories, tissue banks and fertility clinics will continue to work to the same high quality and safety standards as they did prior to exit.
Baroness Manzoor
I have not given way. I am sorry but I need to finish. I need to make some progress. I have given way on a number of occasions, so forgive me.
The instruments are being made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. They make appropriate amendments and revocations to correct deficiencies in UK law and retained EU law. Regardless of one’s views on EU exit, we can all agree that UK patients should have every opportunity to access the life-changing therapies covered by these regulations, such as: organs, including hearts to treat heart failure; stem cells used to treat blood cancers; corneas to restore sight or skin grafts to treat burns; and eggs and sperm to treat infertility.
Some organs, tissues and cells move between the UK and the EU. The proposed amendments are critical to ensuring that this movement can continue if we exit the EU without a deal in March 2019—and I stress again for noble Lords, if we leave without a deal.
A small number of organs are shared with EU and non-EU countries, with fewer than 30 organs on average being imported or exported each year. Tissues and cells are imported from and exported to EU countries less often than they are imported from and exported to countries outside the EU. There are around 5,000 imports of tissues and cells from the EU in a typical year. That includes around 600 imports of stem cells and 3,000 imports of bone products. The UK imports donated sperm, primarily from commercial sperm banks in the USA and Denmark.
To be clear, these instruments are limited to the necessary technical amendments to ensure that the legislation is operative on EU exit day. The instruments confer powers from the European Commission to the Secretary of State and the devolved Administrations to make technical changes. However, no policy changes are made through these regulations and we have no intention of making any at this point. I hope that that reassures noble Lords.
The main changes that these instruments would introduce are as follows. First, in the event of no deal, the UK and the EU will consider each other to be third countries; the regulations redefine the term “third country” to include EU countries and Gibraltar. As a result, licensed establishments will need to make administrative changes to continue to import organs, tissues and cells from EU countries and Gibraltar. For example, establishments may need to put new agreements in place with their EU supplier.
Secondly, the regulations amend a number of references contained in current UK legislation that will no longer be appropriate once the UK withdraws from the EU, such as references to obligations with which the UK must comply as an EU member state. For example, the instruments remove the obligation for UK regulators to share information on serious adverse incidents with the European Commission, as this was meant to be a reciprocal obligation of information sharing and we cannot keep an obligation that can be fulfilled by only one side. However, licensed establishments that exchange organs, tissues and cells with the EU will still have the obligation to report any serious adverse incident that may have affected their quality and safety to the UK regulators within 24 hours. That obligation extends to activities carried out in the EU.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
Can the Minister clarify something for me? I may have missed something. Who is the obligation on? Is the obligation on the EU to tell us, us to tell the EU or both?
Baroness Manzoor
Yes, it is critical. The obligation applies to both sides within the 24-hour period I mentioned. UK regulators will therefore continue to receive information on serious adverse events.
Baroness Thornton
I want further clarification on that point. Why will the EU be obliged to tell us things if we crash out?
Baroness Manzoor
Obviously, our licence and the agreements we have in place will enable that to happen on both sides. We hope that those close partnerships will continue after we exit if we exit with a no-deal agreement.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, can the Minister tell the Committee whether those licences are already in place? It sounds as though the Minister is expressing an aspiration for those licence agreements to be in place. We are talking about arrangements that will need to be put in place in just two months’ time.
Baroness Manzoor
I will come back to that when I speak later.
The UK regulators will therefore continue to receive information on serious adverse events and reactions related to organs, tissues and cells imported from the EU and the national reporting systems that the UK competent authorities operate will not be affected post exit. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s question.
Lord Adonis
Is that a fact or a statement of aspiration? I ask that because there is a very important difference. Is the Minister talking about what she hopes will happen or what she can tell the Grand Committee is in fact the case because of licence arrangements with our European partners that are currently in place?
Baroness Manzoor
I can say to the noble Lord that if we leave the EU with a no-deal Brexit, licensed establishments are obliged to report all incidents whether they occur in the UK or in any other country. I think that the question the noble Lord is asking is why we would have licences anyway. Why would they talk to each other if we are no longer part of the team? I think that that is what the noble Lord is saying. Because these agreements are already in place, they will continue. There will be a six-month period, if we leave without a deal, to ensure that all the licences with whichever parties they are with are updated and put in place.
Baroness Barker (LD)
Perhaps I may ask for some clarification of that. The licences will continue to exist for only six months. Is that what the noble Baroness has just said? I repeat: the licences that we are talking about will continue for only six months.
Baroness Manzoor
Perhaps I may revert to that because we are getting into the questions when I would like to move forward. Noble Lords will have a chance to come back to me with questions.
The regulations also modify how some of the requirements in the directives which are referred to in our domestic legislation are to be read post exit. We are talking about the scenarios if there is no deal. This is necessary to ensure that the requirements referred to function properly post exit.
Thirdly, these instruments transfer powers from the Commission to the Secretary of State and the devolved Administrations, where these are within their competence, to allow the Government to respond to emerging threats, changes to quality and safety standards and technological advances. Legislative competence for the donation, processing and use in treatment of human reproductive cells—sperm, eggs and embryos—is reserved to Westminster. Competence in respect of all other human tissues, cells and organs is devolved and the relevant instruments are being made on a UK-wide basis with the consent of the devolved Administrations. NHS Blood and Transplant oversees organ donation and transplantation on a UK-wide basis, and we have UK-wide regulators in this area.
The changes in these instruments were discussed with the UK regulators, the Human Tissue Authority and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, along with issues of operational implementation. The regulators have been working with their licensed establishments to consider the changes introduced by these instruments and no issues of concern have been raised. The impact of these instruments on businesses and public bodies will be low. Only establishments that import from or export to EU countries will be affected.
I turn now particularly to organs. NHS Blood and Transplant is the UK transplant organisation. NHSBT and the Human Tissue Authority will work together to put any new arrangements in place as needed to allow organ exchange to continue post exit. There is no impact on organ transplant centres. In terms of tissues and cells, licensed establishments that import tissues and cells will need to put new agreements in place so that they can continue to import tissues and cells from EU countries. That is what I have said already in answer to a question put by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. The instruments give a six-month transition period to give them time to do this, which is what I pointed out previously in response to a question.
Baroness Manzoor
I am sorry but I really want to finish. I will then be happy to take any questions.
During this period, imports and exports will continue to take place as long as the regulatory authorities are satisfied that equivalent standards are met—that is on both sides. We estimate that all these establishments will also import tissues and cells from third countries and so will be able to use their existing written agreements as a template. Licensed establishments that export tissues and cells will also need to put new agreements in place. The timings for this will be determined by the requirements in the relevant EU country. Again, we estimate that all these establishments will also export tissues and cells to third countries and so should be able to use their existing written agreements as a template. The UK regulators will continue to advise and support all tissue establishments in preparing for exit day. In addition to ensuring that the regulations are operable, we continue to proportionately prepare for the continued safe supply of organs, tissues and cells across the UK in all potential EU exit outcomes. I beg to move.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the noble Lord continues to make an extremely powerful argument. Does he not think that after the action of the House in rejecting the former Chancellor George Osborne’s tax credit changes two and a half years ago, and when the Government then promptly withdrew those regulations and did not proceed with them, that actually constituted a very important constitutional precedent for how this House should behave? However, to all intents and purposes, all that your Lordships did was to ask the House of Commons to think again. Because the Government believed that they would not be able to mobilise a majority in the House of Commons they withdrew those regulations. That, I think, was a powerful vindication of the scrutiny role of the House of Lords and dealt with the issue of our rejection being somehow unconstitutional because it was regarded as being favourable. But the reality, of course, is that the Government reintroduced regulations in the House of Commons and could carry them there. They would then come back to us with a renewed majority which would significantly influence how your Lordships behaved. The implication of that is that it would be perfectly reasonable for us to reject statutory instruments the first time in order to test the opinion of the House of Commons as to whether it wished to proceed with them. That is particularly important in the case of these no-deal regulations because it is not clear to your Lordships whether it is in fact the will of the House of Commons that we should proceed with no deal.
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, perhaps I may help the Grand Committee. Noble Lords are not being asked to approve the instruments on behalf of the House. As noble Lords, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, will know, Motions have to be brought back to the House and if the House then wishes to go to a vote, it can do so. My point today is to set out the arguments for the SIs and the importance of why we need to take this action. However, the SIs will be brought back to the House for approval.
Lord Tyler
I understand that and I am grateful to the Minister for making the point. However, I think that the point the noble Lord has made is perfectly reasonable.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The noble Lord has been in this House for a long time. I hope that he is not being taken in by what the Minister has said. If we accept what she has said and we let the regulations go through on the nod, they go on to a list and will go through the House on the nod. However, if in the end we object, as I did, to a previous instrument, there has to be a proper debate in the House at an agreed time. That is the important issue.
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, I am very much a newbie so I offer my sincere apologies if I have misunderstood. However, my understanding is that all statutory instruments go back to the House and any Member can get up and ask for a vote. It is not simply a nod from the House. The noble Lord is fully aware of that and I have heard him say so himself in the Chamber.
Baroness Thornton
Perhaps we could have some clarification from the Deputy Chairman of Committees.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
Perhaps I can help the Grand Committee. I should remind noble Lords that the Motion before them is to consider the regulations. I must emphasise the word “consider”, not to approve them. Whatever happens in the Grand Committee, the Government will need to table an approval Motion in the Chamber where any Member can properly register disagreement and table an amendment to debate the Motion.
Baroness Manzoor
I thank the Deputy Chairman for that clarification and I am pleased that his words bear out the point I have just made to the noble Lord.
Lord Tyler
I want simply to respond to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Technically, of course, the House did not reject that particular statutory instrument. The noble Lord may recall that the Motion was very carefully phrased in order to delay its implementation until certain circumstances had been approved. That same evening, a straight rejection was voted down in the House, so I do not think that that situation is strictly comparable to the one that we now face, with this stream of contingency planning SIs—I emphasise the point that the Minister has made this afternoon. These are speculative SIs, if you like, dealing with situations that all of us now must surely think are unlikely. From what the Minister has said, it appears that the House will be subjected to a whole stream of SIs that may never be required. That is an extraordinary way to treat your Lordships’ House.
Finally, I turn to paragraph 113. As I am sure your Lordships will be glad to hear, this is shorter—
Baroness Manzoor
Perhaps I may again interrupt, because I do not feel that we are considering the regulations. Of course, I bow to the much greater experience of the noble Lord on constitutional issues. As I said, I am very much a newbie, relatively speaking. However, neither the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments nor the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew to the House’s attention anything special in the three SIs that we are considering. I bring that to the attention of the Grand Committee. We can spend a lot of time looking at processes and procedures relating to SIs, but perhaps I may put in a small plea. This is about considering the three SIs before us, which are important for contingency planning, and I would like us to move forward, if we can.
Lord Tyler
I hear what the noble Baroness says, but she is technically not correct. At the moment, we are considering only one. Setting that on the table for a moment, I wanted to—
Lord Adonis
I hope that the noble Lord, who is making a powerful case, will in no way be dissuaded from applying his full powers of scrutiny to these regulations. It would be totally unacceptable if the Grand Committee were in any way influenced by a Minister into thinking that it should not fulfil its constitutional responsibility to give full consideration to each of these instruments individually, not least because, if this issue is to go to the House for a proper debate, as it appears it will, Members of the House will need to be informed by the debate in the Grand Committee and we should not suppress full consideration of the issues at stake.
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, for the record let me say that I am not for a minute suggesting that we should not have full and proper scrutiny of any legislation, whether in Grand Committee or in the Chamber. I value that. At the moment, however, we are talking about processes regarding SIs and not the regulations before us.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, it is unfortunate that we have not had an opportunity to have a general discussion in the Chamber about this process; otherwise, I could have made this speech then. The report was published by the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House on 20 November last year. It is on process and is extremely important. Had the Government made time for that discussion, we could have approached these issues in a different way.
Finally, let me come to the recommendation in paragraph 113, which says:
“If the Government’s current approach to delegated legislation persists, or the situation deteriorates further, the established constitutional restraint shown by the House of Lords towards secondary legislation may not be sustained”.
That is the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House putting down an extremely important warning marker. It is intensely important that the whole process on the stream of SIs coming down the track to us is approached with that in mind. It will be up to your Lordships’ House to decide whether the Government are responding appropriately to these recommendations as they bring forward this avalanche of Brexit-related secondary legislation.
The complacency shown by the Minister on Monday in the Chamber, when challenged by my noble friend Lord Newby and others, does not encourage us to be optimistic. He claimed that 50% of the necessary Brexit SIs had been tabled. He also reported that the number had been reduced to some 600. I understand that this has been achieved by a great deal of amalgamation and compositing. The result is that some very long and indigestible SIs are on the way to us, perhaps with as many as 600 pages, in one case. I am told that the Home Office calls these “portmanteau SIs” because they are so general, and they will be extremely difficult for your Lordships’ House to deal with in an adequate manner.
When my noble friend asked the Minister how many SIs had been passed in both Houses, he was unable to give an answer. He did not know it—I hope he does by now. It is clear from the excellent briefing we had this afternoon from HM Treasury on the financial services legislation—indeed, it is also true of the Explanatory Note for these regulations—that we are doing complex and important work. It is not something that can go through on the nod, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said. Therefore, it is right that we take stock of what exactly is happening.
It may be, as the Minister has been at pains to say, that because this is simply contingency planning for an outcome that the Government do not want or expect to happen, and do not want to have to deal with, all this will turn out to be a largely wasted exercise—in which case, we also have a concern. It is a common perception across the House that the Government have not a hope of delivering properly scrutinised Brexit primary legislation before 29 March. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said earlier, they have even less chance of providing proper time for rigorous scrutiny of secondary legislation, where the devil is so often in the detail. The overall timetable is beyond the scope of this debate, but if anyone is under the illusion that it would be responsible for the Prime Minister to charge on towards any form of Brexit by the end of March, they should sit down quietly and just look at the proper scrutiny role that we as Members of your Lordships’ House have to exercise on behalf of the nation.
Lord Adonis
Will the Department of Health hire a new generation of drones as part of its £4 billion for contingency planning so that if disruption takes place, these vital organs and tissues will get through? I hope that the Minister will tell us more because in the House of Commons, Jackie Doyle-Price was not in a position to give any assurances. A lot has happened since, including the debate in the House on ferry contracts. Such ferries could presumably be one of the contingency arrangements for transporting organs, but it turns out that the contract is with a company that has no ferries and no experience of managing them. What assurance can be given to NHS patients and practitioners that there will be no disruption whatsoever in arrangements as a result of this no-deal planning?
The third important issue, which the Minister also referred to, is devolution and how it has an impact on these arrangements. When I read the debates in the House of Commons on the regulations, it was unclear to me precisely what will be devolved and what will not. What will be central government’s responsibility and what will be the devolved authorities’ responsibility? I hope that the Minister can set that out clearly because it will be of great concern to the devolved authorities. In the House of Commons, Jackie Doyle-Price said:
“Legislative competence for the donation, processing and use in treatment of human reproductive cells—sperm, eggs and embryos—is reserved to Westminster. Competence in respect of all other human tissues, cells and organs is devolved”.—[Official Report, Commons, Third Delegated Legislation Committee, 19/12/18; col. 4.]
Can the Minister explain why the reserved issues are being reserved and the devolved issues devolved? There does not appear to be any clear rationale for this matter, but it will clearly be significant for the relationship between Parliament, Whitehall and the devolved authorities. We have asked a lot of serious questions about the regulations to which I hope the Minister will be able to give full replies for the benefit of not only the Committee but the House when it debates these important issues.
Baroness Manzoor
I thank noble Lords very much. I was not expecting such a lengthy debate but I very much welcome this scrutiny. I want to say from the outset that although I welcome the input from the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, the reality is that I am not in a position to comment on the processes and procedures on SIs, including which SIs come before us. As I have said already, these SIs were considered before coming before the Committee and there will be an option for further discussion of them in the House if noble Lords wish. Indeed, if noble Lords wish to table amendments, that is a matter for them. I cannot say what the process is because I do not know. There was some discussion about primary legislation; this is not primary legislation, of course. We are just considering SIs so I am not in a position to talk about amendments.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
That is exactly the point that I and others were making. If it were primary legislation then we could amend it, but because these are SIs there is no arrangement for amendments to be considered either here or on the Floor of the House, which means that the instrument has to be either accepted or rejected. That is a take-it-or-leave-it situation that makes things very difficult in an area that, as we have heard, particularly from my noble friend Lord Winston but from others as well, is so complicated.
Lord Warner (CB)
Before the Minister responds, I have a relevant point. I have sat here listening interestedly to this debate over the last 40 minutes or so; I am waiting to speak on some later regulations. If the Minister could say that she was willing to take matters away in the light of the comments made in Committee for further consideration by the Government, or to withdraw the regulations while that was happening, it would speed up the consideration of these regulations. I think the Minister might take advice very quickly on that issue because we are going to go through the same issues on regulation after regulation. Unless there is some capacity for the Government to respond to the concerns that are being expressed, not just about this set of regulations but on the others as well, we are going to be here for a very long time.
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, it will be a matter for the Grand Committee in terms of how it wishes to proceed. My role today is to enable the scrutiny of the statutory instruments and give the reasons and the arguments as to why they have been put before the Committee for its consideration. It is above my pay grade to take them away and come back. We are here to deal with these three regulations, and I intend to do so.
I wanted to close off the wider debate because much of the debate has not really been about the content of the regulations but about the impact of SIs generally. As the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, he has used this Sitting because he felt that no opportunity had been given to him and others to have the debate on the Floor of the House. Again, that is of course not within my remit, but I have listened to what the noble Lord has said and I am sure the Chief Whip and others will hear it. It is open to him and other noble Lords to talk to the usual channels if they have issues regarding what debates take place and which SIs come forward.
Moving sharply on, a number of noble Lords but particularly the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about cost in relation to this particular regulation, although this applies to all three. We expect the cost to be minimal because clinics that need import licences already have them. We estimate that fertility clinics will need to put 60 to 100 new agreements in place, and they will be able to use their existing agreements as templates for the new ones. We are not expecting any additional transportation costs, to which the noble Lord also alluded, because the clinics already meet transport costs for importing from the EU.
Lord Adonis
If there is serious disruption, there will be significant additional costs to these establishments. How is she proposing that those costs will be met? Are there any concerns about the impact of such disruption on patients and those engaged in this matter?
Baroness Manzoor
I hope the noble Lord feels I have been generous in giving way, but I really do need to make progress. I will answer the questions, but he must allow me to answer them before posing the same questions again.
The noble Lord asked about the impact cost for regulators and businesses, and I have already said these are to be low. He also asked what these costs are exactly. I do not have the figures, but they are expected to be very low, because for fertility clinics, it will be largely business as usual. Those importing from the EU already have import licences. The clinics will need written agreements and the regulator, the HFEA, will consider these at no cost.
Lord Winston
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. This is a specialised area and it is quite understandable that the Minister is not fully apprised of the problems arising here. It is a question not merely of cost but also of ethical approval. For example, even for minor changes in a licence—and they can be minimal, such as a request for a three-month extension to a licence we have asked to be reviewed—it can take months just to get the approval. There are so many changes that need to be made when you do different research and find new things happening. This is a moving area of science. It is not static, and it is not like so much other regulation. Therefore, to take three completely different areas en bloc makes no sense. Each brings its own very different problems. I hope the Minister will recognise that as they need to be debated before they go to the Chamber.
Baroness Manzoor
I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Winston, says, but I want to reassure him that these instruments are about continuation of present practices, standards and patient safety. They are not introducing new ethical considerations. We are merely, if there is no deal, putting in place contingency plans so that for sixth months, new agreements can be put in place. The number of those agreements is not going to be significant.
A number of noble Lords raised issues about delays at ports. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in particular raised this on a number of occasions. I stress again, in the event of no deal, it is possible there may be delays for freight transiting via Dover, the Eurotunnel, and possibly Holyhead and other ports. The disruption to outbound traffic could have an impact on inbound traffic between EU and UK ports; I concede that. It could also lead to congestion on the road network in Kent, but we are planning for this situation and want to avoid any disruption to the supply of urgent material to hospitals in the region, and any congestion at ports or on the roads. Organs, particularly, are flown already, and that will continue. Where there is urgent need, they will be flown to the appropriate places, and those agreements will continue.
Baroness Manzoor
No, I am sorry. I have been more than generous today.
This is about contingency planning, making sure that if there is no deal, these will be activated. I have already addressed the cost to businesses. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, also asked about import licences of UK establishments, and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, asked about the six-month transition period. The six-month transition period will allow time for UK licensed establishments to put in place the agreements with EU establishments. We will try to mirror as much as we can but it will give further time. Many of those agreements are in place but that is a further six months. I remind your Lordships that we are talking about a no-deal planning scenario.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked whether we will be a third country when we exit. Of course, we will be a third country when we exit the EU. She also asked what I thought was a very important and relevant question about who will inspect the establishments in EU countries. Of course, we want to ensure safety for patient care and that the quality is there. I reassure the Committee that EU regulators already inspect establishments in their own countries before they license them, and this will continue after exit day, so we will be able to rely on the standards in the establishments as we currently do. Regulators in their own countries go and inspect the premises and that will continue to happen, so there will be joint understandings of standards, which will not be diluted. This is a continuation. We are not making new plans.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, also asked about the transport of sperm and embryos. Of course, these travel in special containers and, as I said, they are often flown by air. The containers have the appropriate paperwork, which explains what is inside, and they are not expected to be subject to extra inspections at the border when they come into the UK. That will continue.
In response to questions asked by a number of noble Lords—and this applies to all three SIs—licensed establishments are obliged to report all incidents involving adverse effects, whether these happened in the UK or any other country.
I tried to cover the question of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. The noble Lord spent a considerable time talking about processes and statutory instruments. All I can say to him is that, whatever the outcome, any reasonable, good Government—or any company or business—must have a contingency plan. This is contingency planning. It would be poor of the Government if we did not take such action. So I do not see it as a waste of money. I see it as prudent and effective planning.
What happens if the instruments are not made? That is a matter for the Grand Committee and, of course, the House. It is such a sensitive area and I am a newbie so I am learning all the time. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler—and I said it at the start—that of course the Government will reflect on what has been said, and we take the issues that the noble Lord and others have raised regarding SIs, processes and procedures very seriously.
Lord Tyler
Is the Minister prepared to make representations to the Government Chief Whip that time should be permitted as soon as possible for the Constitution Committee report to which I referred, which is so relevant to everything that has been discussed this afternoon, to be discussed on the Floor of the House? If we do not have that opportunity before this stream of Brexit-related SIs comes before us, we will not be able to do our duty as the revising House of this Parliament.
Baroness Manzoor
I am very happy to give that undertaking. I will ensure the Chief Whip is aware of it, as was my intention, and I am sure he will be. These statutory instruments are important because if they are not made, we may not be able to share organs, tissues and cells with EU countries, and that could jeopardise patient treatment. Regarding a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I stress again that all three SIs are about maintaining the same high safety standards that we have in the NHS. We are not changing anything. We are just putting in place contingency plans. I know he has come back to me again and again on this particular issue in different ways, but we are not making new legislation, nor are we changing primary legislation. We are just ensuring we have agreements in place should a no-deal exit happen.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The Minister said we are not changing primary legislation. So what does “Part 2: Amendment of primary legislation” mean?
Baroness Manzoor
Can I complete what I am saying, because at the moment what we are talking about is maintaining current standards. We are not going to be doing anything new. Any changes to UK law will be a matter for Parliament as a whole, so if we were to change primary legislation on whatever issues there are, it would come to the House.
The issue of amendments also was raised. I cannot say much about it because, as noble Lords are well aware, these are statutory instruments. The noble Lord, Lord Winston, spoke about the issue of fertility treatment outside the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority-regulated sector. I bow to his significant experience and wealth of knowledge in this particular area. This is an issue of concern, but while we are in the EU—and it is not solved by leaving the EU—addressing it would mean putting restrictions on the ability of individuals to travel abroad and receive medical treatment, which is well outside the scope of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act.
I have spoken regarding consultations. The SIs are not about making policy. They are about maintaining the status quo as far as possible, so there are discussions with the regulator rather than a public consultation, which I think the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, was asking about. There have been no issues raised. The noble Baroness also asked about embryo research and where that will sit. This particular issue is reserved to Westminster.
I have tried to answer as many questions as I can on this specific issue but my generic answers extend to all three SIs. I beg to move.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, in response to the point about disruption at the ports and what the impact could be on these highly sensitive organs and materials, she asked if I was aware that many of them go by plane. I am well aware of that. It is the main means by which transportation takes place in these cases. However, the issue of disruption at the airports in the case of no deal is every bit as serious as disruption at Dover, and the noble Baroness saying that it was all okay because this would be dealt with by air freight misses the point entirely. We have had debates in the House about this precise issue. What arrangements will be put in place? The European Aviation Safety Agency and all the arrangements by which air traffic takes place in Europe are crucially dependent on our membership of the European Union. At the moment, satisfactory arrangements are not remotely in place for the conduct of air traffic in the event of no deal.
Is the Minister aware that her response on the crucial question which will affect the lives of large numbers of patients has not given the Grand Committee confidence? Can she undertake to come back with a much fuller contingency plan for what will happen in the event of disruption at the airports as well as the ports in respect of embryos, tissues and all the other extremely sensitive products which are at stake here?
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, I understand the question. As I have said, organs and other urgent material already travel by air and the Government will make arrangements for them to be prioritised if there are delays at airports.
Lord Adonis
Can the noble Baroness say what “prioritised” means in the event that air traffic is not taking place at all because of disruption to the regulatory arrangements in respect of the airports? Are the Government in a position, perhaps by use of the RAF and military aircraft, to ensure that these organs, tissues and so on will be transported and that there will be no disruption? That is a critical matter for the Grand Committee and the House to consider in respect of the contingency arrangements for no deal, which is precisely the matter that we are discussing with these instruments.
Baroness Manzoor
My Lords, regarding whether airplanes will fly is well beyond my remit, but I fully expect them to do so irrespective of whether we are in the EU or out.
Baroness Manzoor
Perhaps that sounds flippant, but they will still be flying. This is a very serious and crucial matter. We are talking about patient safety and organs. We need to ensure that organs can get from point A to point B. I and the Government have made a commitment that they will be given priority. I do not have a crystal ball and I do not know what will happen; I do not know what will happen next week. What I am saying is that we want to support patient safety and the quality of the service at their current levels.
Baroness Thornton
I think that the Minister is being teased somewhat by my noble friend, but some of that is completely justified. Of course, the truth is that this is a Brexit-blind question because airports can be closed. I can remember dealing with this when I was a Minister and there was an active volcano in Iceland which stopped organs from being flown over from Canada. Perhaps I may offer that little bit of comfort to the Minister and suggest that perhaps she might move this statutory instrument.
Lord Winston
Before my noble friend finishes, I should say that I really do not feel that that is a satisfactory point. I hope that I will be forgiven for saying this, but there are numerous examples of where the immediate relationship with Europe is important. Let me take one of those which I do not believe has been considered at all. We are aware that the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority undertakes to consider that no more than 10 attempts at sperm donation are made by individual donors, but we have increasingly been importing gametes from outside the United Kingdom because the regulations in this country have rather prevented males wishing, not unreasonably, to donate their sperm. As a consequence, we are importing sperm at an increasing rate and there is a great deal of evidence to show that there is an increasing risk of consanguinity in offspring because more than 10 children are produced as a result of one donor selling their sperm in different countries. That is the sort of thing which does in fact apply to the Brexit situation and it is a problem.
The three statutory instruments before us for discussion are so technical and so demanding that the suggestion which has already been made that we should perhaps withdraw them for the time being and have a proper consultation on what is important in the Brexit issues might be something that we should be thinking about today before accepting them en bloc and before we proceed any further.
Baroness Manzoor
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for her intervention; I very much appreciated it. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for his suggestion. But as I have already indicated, we are considering the SIs here today, and it will be a matter for the Grand Committee how it chooses to proceed. I say again that we are not talking about changing legislation; rather, it is about maintaining the standards that we currently have. In terms of tracing organs, sperm and cells, the regulators will keep the same standards and provisions of traceability. They will not change. As the noble Lord will know, these agreements are not only in place with the EU; the regulators have agreements with other countries around the world.
I conclude with a clarification. It was either the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, or the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, who said that we are changing primary legislation. They were right, but only to the extent that it is within the powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. We are amending primary legislation in relation to HFE because the EU directives in this area were implemented by primary legislation. I just wanted to clarify that. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, the Question is that the Grand Committee do consider the draft Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.