Baroness Maddock
Main Page: Baroness Maddock (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Consumer Rights Bill
Baroness Maddock Excerpts
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
This amendment is also very important. It is common knowledge that not a great deal is known about the actual defined duties of the regulators. I remember when I received the first Monopolies Commission report in my department, to the effect that the nationalised electricity industry was of positive disadvantage to consumers for all sorts of reasons. At that point we were able to start looking at privatising the industry, because one of the most cogent parts of the report was that it was not operating either in the interests of its customers or of its employees, which was true. So we then started to embark on a long series of denationalisation and privatisation of the utilities. When we did so, it was implied that the regulators would be very important, they would have great powers, and that they would exercise those powers on a regular basis, and also investigate. There has been a feeling recently that the regulators are not necessarily asking all the right questions.
Once again, the National Consumer Federation has given a number of examples which refer to the actual requirements as far as these people are concerned. It is its job to identify risks, scan the horizon and use consumer insight, creating the right incentives for the market to work well for consumers, ensuring that the data is published, and working closely with other regulators. It does not give the impression of being in touch at all at the moment. It needs to involve consumers and their representatives, including consumer bodies, to have a regular dialogue. What is most important is to ensure compliance with licence conditions and other rules through investigations and effective enforcement as well as imposing penalties for firms which, as we know, often amount to many millions. Only recently one of these regulators has, for the very first time, insisted that in the case of that particular fine, a certain amount had to be paid in refunds to consumers as a result of the firm not doing what was necessary, or what the regulators required them to do.
The very important first move that I would like to see, as part of this amendment, would allow them to go a lot further than that. We hear about the multimillions that are paid in fines and we are not sure where it all goes, although we know that it goes to the office of the regulators. But there is no reason now why my proposal should not be a requirement on regulators, without any real change of law, when a really bad result, certainly as far as consumers are concerned, has led to a fine. This is another very important amendment, because it is very basic and deals with problems that a lot of people do not comprehend today. They see these big fines—they read about them in the newspaper—but do not actually see them directly benefiting them. They will do, but it is not all that clear.
As I said, this amendment is a quick and fair move for consumers to make complaints and involve themselves in disputes, and also proposes, in subsection (4), that these,
“fines levied by a consumer regulator on a trader for breaches of rights … shall, following deductions by the regulator for its reasonable administration costs, be used to compensate consumers”,
who have been put at a disadvantage. Again, this is not asking the Government to do anything but to define more clearly the role of the regulator: what it should be and how this should be carried out. I beg to move.
Baroness Maddock (LD)
My Lords, I support my noble friend on this, partly because during the passage of the Energy Bill—the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, was there when we did this—I managed to get the Government to accept my amendment to promote more accurate information on energy bills. In reading my noble friend’s amendment here, I would like the regulators—just as in my amendment that is now law—to “uphold” rather than “promote” in subsection (2). I would also want them to be “upholding” rather than “promoting” in subsection (3)(a), with reference to energy bills. That is something that they should make sure happens. It is part of the law. I strongly support my noble friend here. It would be very good if we could get this in other areas. We have something rather better in energy bills thanks to the Government accepting an amendment last year in the then Energy Bill.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, very briefly, I support this amendment. Subsection (2) says:
“It shall be the duty of consumer regulators to promote the rights of consumers”.
I have been looking at the duties of Ofwat, the water regulator. It says that,
“our primary duties are to: … protect the interests of consumers, wherever appropriate by promoting competition … ensure that the companies properly carry out their functions … ensure that the companies can finance their functions”,
and,
“ensure long-term resilience”.
In the case of Thames Water, which is the biggest water utility, the regulator over the past 10 years has allowed the company to reduce its asset base to about a quarter of what it was, so it cannot now finance the tunnel that it wants to built under the Thames—the Thames tideway tunnel—without going into a kind of complex financial structure involving a separate infrastructure provider. The relationship between the infrastructure provider and Thames Water is extremely unclear. Who is liable if something goes wrong? That is also unclear, but the Government have been very nice and given them a guarantee if they run into financial trouble, because the provider is Macquarie Bank—and we would not want it to get into financial trouble, would we?
The extraordinary thing is that the regulator seems to think that this does not need any questioning or that any information should be given to the 12 million customers of Thames Water who are going to have to pay. There is a debate about how much they are going to have to pay a year, but it will be somewhere between £60 and £80 extra. This is a sewage charge, but all the people living in Oxford, Witney, Newbury or anywhere which is part of the group, even though they are not going to benefit from the Thames tideway tunnel, will have to pay. I think the regulator has been asleep on the job.
This amendment should make things better, but Ofwat already has a primary duty to protect the interests of customers, and it is clearly not doing so. Therefore, this amendment, if it is accepted by the Government, should put more pressure on it and some of the other utilities to do what they should do: to look at the needs of the customers, see whether there is an alternative and keep customers informed about what is going on. It is a good amendment and it will be interesting to hear what the Minister says in response.
Lord Clarke of Hampstead (Lab)
Noble Lords will know that I am not a regular attender on the Bill but the amendment, once I had read it, sparked off all sorts of thoughts, particularly for those who I meet in branches of the Post Office and desperately want to use normal transaction methods. The terms of the amendment will be welcomed by countless customers who have not been, and perhaps do not want to be, involved in electronic transactions. It is a fact of life that many find the modern method of conducting exchanges with suppliers, especially of utilities, by electronic means a convenient way to settle their accounts or bills. It is also a fact that many do not want to avail themselves of this advantage of modern technology. They are quite happy writing out their cheques, sending off payment for their bills and getting a nice receipt back through the post. I must declare an interest as a former postman, so the idea that people might start using the post gives me a lot of satisfaction.
A particular point of the amendment which I am delighted to see is the safeguard against the form of financial punishment that comes in if people do not want to take up the advantages of getting 10 direct debits, paying three weeks in advance and all that nonsense. People who do not want to do it should not be made to pay for those people who do. If people are getting the advantage of these financial rebates or discounts, they are being paid for by somebody, and they are being paid for by the other people who are not involved in reductions in tariffs.
I came in tonight to say how pleased I am to see this amendment because it is what a lot of people want: straightforward exchange, paying bills, getting receipts and tucking them away in a drawer. If you ever have to tidy up people’s affairs after they have departed this earth, you will find that some people keep their bills for many years.
The debate on the previous amendment gives me the opportunity to talk about a particular regulator. The noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, referred to the cost of postage, and I am delighted that she did because the regulator has not done much of a job on the question of payment to Royal Mail by its competitors. Are talks going on which will make it a bit fairer? The competitors of Royal Mail are dumping their post into the system and under the universal service obligation, Royal Mail has to deliver it, which is the expensive part. Are any discussions going on that will bring this downstream access, as it is called, under some control so that the competitors’ payments to Royal Mail bear some relation to the true cost? At the moment, to maintain the universal service obligation Royal Mail has to subsidise its competitors because there is a requirement they are all owed a margin of profit. The Government should be looking at that margin of profit with the regulator.
I am delighted with this amendment. I just hope that the people of this nation will be able to say that they can sleep in their bed at night not having to worry about www dot coms. My noble friend Lord Harris made me feel much more competent when he explained the difficulty he had dealing with a particular whatever they call these websites. That is me. It shows that I am not all that dim. I am fairly dim, but I am in good company with my noble friend Lord Harris.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, not for the first time, I am supporting my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes on the thrust of this amendment. I declare an interest. As somebody approaching 70, I pay my bills by cheque and I do no money transactions, if I can possibly help it, online. That is how I like to do it. My mother died in the summer aged 95. In the end, I had to keep track of what was happening with her bills. It would have been very difficult if she and I had both being trying to do things online. It is not that I cannot use a computer, but I do not choose to do finance on one. It would have been extremely difficult. When I was sorting out her estate, I noticed that you are always paying in advance so they always have your money when you have not had the utility, whichever it is: gas, electricity or something. That is one of the reasons why I do not want to do it. I will pay for it when I have had it, thank you.
The issues that we are discussing here in one way amount to age discrimination because people like me, people who are older than me and people who are caring for people older than me find this extremely difficult. It is quite a serious thing. It may be that it will not matter to my grandchildren. We will all have died out and the utilities will not have to worry about these things, but for the moment it is quite a serious issue for people who are older, and particularly for their carers.
Baroness Maddock
When my mother died, the utilities were all very good. They have special sections to deal with this. I had thought that things would be terrible as I do not usually find them terribly helpful but actually most of them deal with these situations quite well. However, for me, having the paper copies was important as I could see what was going on. However, I cannot fault the utilities as they were very good.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
It is always good to have that sort of good experience on the public record. I thank the noble Baroness for that intervention.
The noble Lord, Lord Clarke of Hampstead, asked whether there were any talks going on with the regulator to ensure that payments to Royal Mail are fairer. I will need to write a letter to the noble Lord on what is largely a Royal Mail competition issue, if I may. I was also pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, shared his experiences, knowing that he comes from the north of England, even though I do not think that I agreed with him on every aspect. The noble Lords, Lord Hodgson and Lord Blencathra, talked about meters. The Government are working with industry on smart meters which will enable readings without a visit to a house and therefore make the cost of energy use more visible. That will be better for consumers.
In conclusion, this is a difficult area, as we do not want society to incur the costs of printing and sending off bills to everyone if that is not needed. The trouble is that if there is no cost to paper bills, people will just opt for paper anyway even if, like me, they can manage online. I think that that is a risk. I know that is not a popular thing to say but I hope that noble Lords will reflect on that aspect of things. There is already a range of billing, payment and statement options available on the market. We agree that it is important that the appropriate protections on access to paper bills are kept in place, and are doing that through our licensing regimes and specific regulatory and sector interventions and by driving quality, choice, fair prices and value for money for consumers through good competition and good consumer law.
We will of course reflect on what has been said in this lengthy and important debate, and see if anything can be done. However, in the light of what I have said, I ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.