Consumer Rights Bill

Lord Clarke of Hampstead Excerpts

Monday 27th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

I know that this is also very popular with people throughout the country. Again, it deals with obligations on the suppliers of utilities and the way in which the regulators would actually set about ensuring that all the provisions set out in the proposed new clause are met. They define what the duties should be in relation to these utilities. Once again, I am grateful for the support I have been given by supporters of the Keep Me Posted campaign around the country in drafting the amendment.

The use of digital information is not just a matter for old crones who cannot actually operate the technology. Although I am one of them, I nevertheless realise that there are many who can but who have the same problems. I am hoping that all the various obligations that this amendment would put on the suppliers of utilities, being a little more prescriptive than the previous one, are acceptable. That applies absolutely more than ever to subsection (4) of the proposed new clause:

“Utilities suppliers shall provide consumers with the option of paying bills by cheque”,

as well as not levying a charge. I went into that part of the new clause in some depth recently when I looked up some old bills. I could see that in 2005, the postage cost 45 pence. It is now 52 pence, but the actual amount that you have to pay can be anything upwards from £6, although it is less than that for some of them. The postal costs of sending out those letters are 22p, not 45p or 52p. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe said in reply to my noble friend Lord Hodgson’s good amendment on this point that it is not for the Government to tell companies how they should organise their costs. I entirely agree; it is for the regulators to do that. It is not a thing for Governments but the regulators.

Many people feel dismay when they receive these extra charges because some 7 million people do not have access to broadband. They are being fined for something they have no hold over whatever. Everyone objects to being charged for something that has been their right for many years. Suddenly they have to pay something extra, and it affects in particular the elderly and those who rely on carers. It is not only those people who are affected, although they are obviously the most important; it affects many people who do not have the computer skills they need because they say they cannot take anything in until they have typed it from the computer on to a piece of paper. That applies through all levels of education and age. I am not going to name names, but one of the most senior physicians in the country expressed exactly that view and said to me: “Can I write to someone about this? Who should I tell?”. I said: “You’ve told me”, and so have many other people.

It is a cruel policy to fine people in this way. It is a form of fine for being unable to do something digitally, perhaps due to other conditions. The subsections in the amendment deal particularly with each problem. It does not involve huge ramifications or costs for the Government. It does not even have marginally big costs for the industry; so, once again, I consider the amendment to be crucial. I am sorry to have to bring all of them out like this, one after another in a non-yielding way, which is not my normal way. I therefore hope that noble Lords will support me.

[Lord Clarke of Hampstead (Lab)]

Noble Lords will know that I am not a regular attender on the Bill but the amendment, once I had read it, sparked off all sorts of thoughts, particularly for those who I meet in branches of the Post Office and desperately want to use normal transaction methods. The terms of the amendment will be welcomed by countless customers who have not been, and perhaps do not want to be, involved in electronic transactions. It is a fact of life that many find the modern method of conducting exchanges with suppliers, especially of utilities, by electronic means a convenient way to settle their accounts or bills. It is also a fact that many do not want to avail themselves of this advantage of modern technology. They are quite happy writing out their cheques, sending off payment for their bills and getting a nice receipt back through the post. I must declare an interest as a former postman, so the idea that people might start using the post gives me a lot of satisfaction.

A particular point of the amendment which I am delighted to see is the safeguard against the form of financial punishment that comes in if people do not want to take up the advantages of getting 10 direct debits, paying three weeks in advance and all that nonsense. People who do not want to do it should not be made to pay for those people who do. If people are getting the advantage of these financial rebates or discounts, they are being paid for by somebody, and they are being paid for by the other people who are not involved in reductions in tariffs.

I came in tonight to say how pleased I am to see this amendment because it is what a lot of people want: straightforward exchange, paying bills, getting receipts and tucking them away in a drawer. If you ever have to tidy up people’s affairs after they have departed this earth, you will find that some people keep their bills for many years.

The debate on the previous amendment gives me the opportunity to talk about a particular regulator. The noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, referred to the cost of postage, and I am delighted that she did because the regulator has not done much of a job on the question of payment to Royal Mail by its competitors. Are talks going on which will make it a bit fairer? The competitors of Royal Mail are dumping their post into the system and under the universal service obligation, Royal Mail has to deliver it, which is the expensive part. Are any discussions going on that will bring this downstream access, as it is called, under some control so that the competitors’ payments to Royal Mail bear some relation to the true cost? At the moment, to maintain the universal service obligation Royal Mail has to subsidise its competitors because there is a requirement they are all owed a margin of profit. The Government should be looking at that margin of profit with the regulator.

I am delighted with this amendment. I just hope that the people of this nation will be able to say that they can sleep in their bed at night not having to worry about www dot coms. My noble friend Lord Harris made me feel much more competent when he explained the difficulty he had dealing with a particular whatever they call these websites. That is me. It shows that I am not all that dim. I am fairly dim, but I am in good company with my noble friend Lord Harris.

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, not for the first time, I am supporting my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes on the thrust of this amendment. I declare an interest. As somebody approaching 70, I pay my bills by cheque and I do no money transactions, if I can possibly help it, online. That is how I like to do it. My mother died in the summer aged 95. In the end, I had to keep track of what was happening with her bills. It would have been very difficult if she and I had both being trying to do things online. It is not that I cannot use a computer, but I do not choose to do finance on one. It would have been extremely difficult. When I was sorting out her estate, I noticed that you are always paying in advance so they always have your money when you have not had the utility, whichever it is: gas, electricity or something. That is one of the reasons why I do not want to do it. I will pay for it when I have had it, thank you.

The issues that we are discussing here in one way amount to age discrimination because people like me, people who are older than me and people who are caring for people older than me find this extremely difficult. It is quite a serious thing. It may be that it will not matter to my grandchildren. We will all have died out and the utilities will not have to worry about these things, but for the moment it is quite a serious issue for people who are older, and particularly for their carers.