Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Lord Northbourne

Monday 25th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate has made a very convincing, strong argument for retaining income and, as he pointed out, deprivation measures. We talk about income measures as shorthand but it is important to remember that the measures in the Child Poverty Act include a deprivation measure.

The 2012 consultation, to which the right reverend Prelate referred, said:

“There can be no doubt that income is a key part of our understanding of child poverty … Household income has a significant impact on childhood and life chances … The impact of growing up in a low income household can last a lifetime”.

That consultation was premised on income being one element of a multidimensional measure, and it made it clear that the Government are not playing a zero-sum game with child poverty measurement as between income and multidimensional indicators. It is not clear what has changed since then. Why have the Government changed their view on that? Do they no longer believe that income is important, despite the evidence, as the right reverend Prelate said, from their own life chances review, which made very clear the impact of low-income, low-material resources on life chances, and despite the advice that they received from their own Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission? Its response to the consultation was that any new multidimensional measure,

“should be supplementary to the existing framework”,

and it looked to the Government to make clear their commitment,

“to maintain the centrality of income in measuring poverty”.

More recently, it said that it is simply not credible to try to improve the life chances of poor children without acknowledging the importance of income on those life chances and that, without an assessment of income, any measure would be inadequate.

As the right reverend Prelate said, the response to the consultation was overwhelmingly in favour of maintaining measures of income and deprivation. That included a response from the Royal Statistical Society, the academic scientific community and civil society organisations. In Committee, my noble friend Lady Blackstone, who is not in her place today, asked what alternative scientific advice the Government had to, in a sense, overturn that overwhelming response, but I do not think that we heard an answer to that.

It may seem rather academic and people may ask: why are we talking about measures; what does this matter? Actually, it matters a lot, and it is quite significant that a petition has been presented. Over 50,000 people care enough about this, and one woman in the country collected these signatures because people do care. If there is no statutory obligation for income and deprivation measures, it looks as though the Government think it simply does not matter if people do not have a sufficient income to live on.

There is no mention of targets in the amendment, unlike the amendment that was put forward in Committee, acknowledging, as the right reverend Prelate said, that the Government are reluctant to sign up to targets. In Committee, all I heard in response to the arguments put was an argument against targets. I did not hear any convincing argument against low-income and deprivation measures. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will think again and respond positively to the right reverend Prelate’s amendment.

[Lord Northbourne (CB)]

My Lords, on this kind of issue I am usually very much on the side of those who are sorry for those who have problems. But I think a much stronger case would be made if the amendment could be rephrased so as to take into account the possibility that, at times, the family themselves ought to do more to create the income that they so desperately need. I have not come prepared with any evidence but, being involved in issues around child poverty, I hear a good deal to suggest that a number of families prefer to live on benefits rather than go to work. I do not blame them for doing that, but I think they should share their responsibility in providing that income which, indeed, is so essential.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Lord Northbourne

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I know that I have already spoken once but I want to ask a question now rather than jump up while the Minister is speaking, because I do not think that we have covered it so far. It is about free school meals. I believe it has been made clear that free school meals as an in-kind benefit will not be taken into account as a benefit received for the cap. However, the Government are currently consulting through the Social Security Advisory Committee about how such passported benefits should be treated with the universal credit. Has the Social Security Advisory Committee been advised about what would happen if it were to recommend that free school meals should become part of universal credit cash payment? Would that bit be treated as separate so that it is not taken as part of the cap, as it would be if it were still paid in kind, or would it be treated as income for the cap? That could be quite an issue in determining whether noble Lords want to support payment in kind or in cash. If the Minister will cover that in his response, I shall be very grateful.

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, I shall not speak at any length because I was not able to be here for the previous day in Committee, but I am very concerned about the effect of the Government’s proposals on carers.

On paying rent to tenants rather than landlords, does the Minister know what the estimated fraud is at present? A few years ago I set down a Question in the House and it emerged that payment to landlords was causing fraud of about £2 billion a year, mainly because they put in applications for addresses that did not exist. If that is the case it slightly affects the statistics, and it must mean that paying to tenants would probably be more efficient.

Public Disorder

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Lord Northbourne

Thursday 11th August 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I would like to support those who have said that we have a responsibility not simply to condemn but also to try to understand why this has happened. If we do not, we risk alienating further those young people who feel shut out, disfranchised and disrespected by the wider society. If we do not do that, this could happen again. I hope that the Government will not go down the road of dispossessing further the dispossessed by taking away social housing and social benefits. I would like to support my noble friend Lady Royall’s call for an inquiry, over and above the inquiry of the Home Affairs Select Committee in another place. We need an inquiry and I take on board what was said about it coming from communities; we need a special commission of inquiry which will go into communities, involve communities and will look at the underlying social, economic, cultural and political factors.

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, prevention is generally considered to be better than cure. A number of organisations and individuals are working successfully with young people who have become disengaged from society and those who are attracted by gangs and the like. Will the Government consider putting together a task force to draw together those organisations that are working successfully with these disadvantaged children in order that they can share their knowledge, and support them and encourage other organisations to do the same work?