Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Lord Cormack

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I well remember a speech made on my first day in Parliament in 1970, on the Queen’s Speech. Sir John Nott was speaking; he was moving the Address, and I have never forgotten his remark that the real poor of the 20th century are those without hope. The same applies to the 21st century. We are dealing with a group of people who are pretty close to being without hope, and one thing that can give people a bit of hope is the opportunity to put something back into the community of which they wish to become a part. Therefore, it seems to me that the prohibition on working is consistent neither with Conservative principles, as the right reverend Prelate pointed out a few moments ago, nor with any principle of humanity. That is what we are really talking about today.

I hope there will be a positive response here because the other point, and the right reverend Prelate referred to this too, is that if they are not allowed to work, they will tend to drift into the black and grey economies, and perhaps become victims of modern slavery. We all know of those who man car washes and other things, who work under excruciatingly difficult circumstances and conditions, and who are effectively the creatures of those who employ them. Is that really what we want? I do not think we do; I do not think the nation wants that.

Of course, we all want to see sensible control of immigration. We all accept that the country cannot receive everybody for ever. I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, nodding vigorously at that point. But we are dealing with human beings and with people who deserve the opportunity to maintain their self-respect. This amendment is a little move in that direction, and I say to my noble friend who will reply that it would be entirely consistent with our Conservative principles of self-help and self-improvement to adopt an amendment along these lines, preferably a government amendment on Report.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I will not make the speech I was going to, because all the points I planned to make have been made. In the early hours of yesterday morning, I criticised the Minister for not listening to what had been said. There is sometimes repetition because of a hope that it will eventually be heard.

We have heard such powerful arguments today, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who has expressed the humanity behind this amendment. We have heard that giving the right to work is about human dignity, and we have heard about people with lived experience of that. They keep asking why they cannot do paid work and saying, “This is what we want to do”.

I am pleading to the Minister to put away whatever briefing he has been given, which talks about pull factors and so forth, and address the points that have been made in this debate.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 30th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to ask a question which was touched on by my noble friend Lord Beecham, by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, in our previous grouping, and also today by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. At Second Reading, the Minister categorically assured your Lordships’ House that ensuring the courts have the information they need when awarding costs,

“does not mean that everyone who donates to a campaign will be at risk”. — [Official Report, 30 June 2014; col. 1542.]

Yet in both written and oral briefings that I have received, this very risk has been one of the concerns that have been raised. For example, Liberty and the Bar Council both warn of the chilling or deterrent effect of these clauses, which appear to mean that people who are not directly party to the proceedings but who have supported an applicant could be held liable for costs. Michael Spencer, solicitor for the Child Poverty Action Group—I remind the Committee of my interest as honorary president of that organisation, already referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf—spoke to the Human Rights Lawyers Association and warned:

“If individuals or groups fundraise or seek donations to help bring their case, the financial clauses of the Bill will put their donors and funders at risk too”.

Will the Minister spell out in words that a non-lawyer can understand who will and will not be at risk of liability? If it is not everyone, is it someone or is it no one? There are two very different ways in which the assurance could be interpreted. If it is no one, could the Minister point—perhaps this is not so helpful for the non-lawyers—to where in the Bill that is made clear? Some people are reading the Bill as saying that it will affect someone, even if not absolutely everyone.

Perhaps the Minister could also answer some very specific questions put by the coalition of civil society organisations that have been briefing noble Lords about the clarity needed on third-party costs liability. They ask whether, if a family chips in to fund a relative’s challenge to a treatment in a care home, they will be liable for costs, perhaps putting their homes at risk. Lawyers may act pro bono to support people who cannot pay. Will their gift in kind mean that they are treated as someone funding or likely to fund the case? If a community group uses crowdsourcing to fund litigation, as was the case with the Lewisham hospital challenge, will every donation carry a cost risk?

I hope that today, once and for all, it can be clarified who exactly is at risk as a result of these clauses. If the fears being voiced by so many organisations are realised, I suspect that noble Lords may want to come back to this matter on Report.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness asks some pertinent and important questions. I had not intended to contribute to this debate, but was moved to do so by the extremely perceptive observations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks, both of whom made some valid points.

We will be constantly reminded in 2015 of those central words of Magna Carta:

“To no one will we sell, to no one deny … justice”.

When the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, talked about access to justice and how important it is that everyone should have it, it reinforced my belief that, although it is entirely proper to ask the sort of questions which my noble friend Lord Marks addressed, I would rather—I have said something similar in this Chamber before—we erred on the side of leniency. One is constantly reminded of that old adage that it is better that 10 guilty people get off than that an innocent person does not. In the context of the judicial review, it is far more important that the sort of people for whom the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, pleaded the other day should not be discriminated against than that somebody who may be a little better heeled should be so. I hope that we can bring a balance to this matter and remind ourselves of that basic tenet of the rule of law:

“To no one will we sell, to no one deny … justice”.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Best, from a slightly different perspective, and repeat what I said in Grand Committee. In Grand Committee, I congratulated the Government on their research, Perceptions on Welfare Reform and Universal Credit, which sounded out various stakeholders about what they thought about some of the reforms. One thing that came from that from people who will be affected was that although they welcomed the one-stop shop approach of universal credit—to the extent that it is a one-stop shop—there were real fears about putting all the eggs in one basket. If all the money goes together in one lump sum, if anything goes wrong, people are left insecure—high and dry. If some of the rent payment is going to the landlord, where the tenant wishes it, that is mitigated. That is why that choice should remain

Not expressed in this research but by a number of outside organisations is the worry about what happens to the money in the family. I know that the Minister argues that budgeting accounts will sort this out. I hope that they will, but I think that he knows that I am still slightly sceptical about the magical powers of the budgetary accounts. There are fears that the money may not be paid into the account of the person responsible for paying the rent and that they may not then have control over how the money is spent by their partner. That is a slightly different perspective from that of the noble Lord, Lord Best, who understandably and powerfully is relaying some of the concerns about housing providers, but we have to think about the extra burden that this might be placing on some families.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Best, has made a powerful case. He made it very gently but forcefully. I was also struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, said. As one who held MPs’ surgeries for about 40 years and saw people come in who were often in considerable distress, I know that it is not just the feckless who get into financial trouble. Many decent people get into financial trouble. The ability to say that this money should go direct to the landlord could be of enormous help to someone who suddenly has a sick child and feels that they must spend the money on that child. If the money has gone to the landlord, the landlord is secure and the tenant is secure. That must surely be wholly desirable.

Those of us who have been constituency Members of Parliament know how difficult it is to persuade private landlords to consider tenants in this general category. We need an abundant supply of privately rented accommodation. Anything that may detract from that is to be regretted.

I admire my noble friend, because he is thoroughly the master of his brief and because his underlying aim, which is to create a more responsible society, is one to which we can, surely, all subscribe, but there are exceptions and times when it is right to give a choice.

Another point, which the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, made, struck a chord with me. There are many elderly people in receipt of benefit who get confused. I am not talking about people who suffer from dementia, but we all know—the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, knows from his constituency experience—that elderly people sometimes get confused. They think, very genuinely, that they have paid something when they have not. It would be a great blessing to give those people that choice.

I would urge my noble friend the Minister to give very careful thought to this. I hope that the House will not divide on it tonight, but I hope that he will be able to give some thought perhaps even to putting down an appropriate amendment at Third Reading.