Modern Slavery Bill
Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Baroness Hanham(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Hanham (Con)
My Lords, my name is also attached to this amendment and since the start of the Bill it is one of the areas of this legislation that I have been most concerned about. Nobody could have failed to be moved by the television programmes that we have seen, the reports that we have heard, and the work done by Kalayaan, which has been very much hampered by the fact that the changes to the visa system took place in 2012.
In this 21st century it is absolutely unacceptable that people are coming in to this country tied to an employer, unable to do anything for themselves and absolutely under the instruction of the person for whom they are working and who has brought them into the country. We would not stand for this for a second if things were otherwise. It is time that we stopped standing for it. We desperately need to make the changes that will enable people who come here to feel reasonably free, reasonably able to live in this country and reasonably able to know that if things go horribly wrong with their employer—as so many of these cases clearly do—there is some redress to somebody who can help them and there is some way out.
When talking to Kalayaan, which deals with the forefront of the work that goes on, it is clear that under the current situation it feels completely helpless to ensure, first, that people can get to it and secondly that if people do come, it can do anything to help them. In Committee, I pointed out that one of the systems in place to help domestic workers know what to do if they run into trouble is a card that is delivered to them if they are lucky—if it does not go into the pocket of their employer—at London airports. It gives them the telephone number of ACAS and a couple of other telephone numbers that they can ring up if they are in trouble. Most of these people have their telephones taken away from them. They do not have access to a telephone. They do not know people in this country. They cannot get out of the premises or the property in order to find other people.
The Minister has a reputation for having responded sympathetically, pragmatically and sensibly to all the issues that have been brought up. The number of government amendments that have come through over the past few weeks has been amazing. I pay tribute to him for the fact that he and the Minister in the other place have listened. I say now, please, will the Minister do this one further thing and listen to this particular problem? It is absolutely germane to modern slavery. It is one of the elements of modern slavery that we cannot overlook. I think this House will really not have shown itself at its best if we do not manage to pass this amendment, which will help—it will not do the trick but it will help other organisations help those who need it.
The mischief, of course, was the change to the visa system in 2012. I understand why—I understand the need to control immigration—but I do not think that we are going to break the bounds of numbers if we help and look after these people. We are not asking that they should stay in the country for ever. What we are asking is for the Government to say that this country does mind about what happens to people who come into it, particularly when they have no means of helping themselves. I very much hope that in his response to what has been put forward today, the Minister will be able to reassure us that the Government will take this amendment on board.
Finally, I think a review is splendid. It is one of the ways of shifting responsibility off to another day. I can see that it would be very nice to have a perfect review of all the implications but there are at least two, if not three, very well thought-out reports already. The Joint Committee on the Bill, on which I sat, went into this in great detail. I do not think we will miss very much if the Minister says that the review could take place but in the mean time agrees to the amendment, which I support.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak very briefly in support of the amendment. Rereading our debate in Committee, I was struck first by the unanimity of your Lordships’ House in support of the amendment but also by the tone of the debate, which was very different from the very positive tone there has been throughout the rest of the debates on the Bill. There was an air of exasperation, expressed particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, who is not able to be here today, and my noble friend Lady Royall.
I think the frustration was partly because the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, claimed to share our concerns—and I am sure she does—yet responded with a series of totally unconvincing arguments. In particular, she seemed to be making the case on the basis of a hypothetical possible increase in abuse as a result of the amendment while seeming to discount the actual evidence of what, according to Kalayaan, happened after 1998 when similar rights were first introduced, which was a clear decrease in abuse reported to it, and then what happened post-April 2012 when those rights were rescinded, which was a significant increase in abuse reported. The Minister twice invited Members of your Lordships’ House to offer suggestions as to what we could do to prevent the abuse. The unanimous suggestion from all over the House, as well as from the Joint Committee on the draft Bill and the Joint Committee on Human Rights, was that we should restore the status quo ante—pre-2012—or something like it.
As has already been argued, there is no need for a review. We have no guarantee of what will happen as a result of that review after the election. How many more women will be subjected to forced labour and exploitation and the kind of suffering so movingly expressed in the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, before we are prepared to act? We have the opportunity to act today to remove an injustice that is totally against the principles underlying the Bill. I hope we will seize that opportunity.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Baroness Hanham
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I will intervene very briefly. We have heard two very powerful speeches from my noble friends in support of this amendment. The more I have listened to the debate during the passage of this Bill, the more I have come to the conclusion that all the talk about protecting vulnerable groups is simply a fig leaf. The Government say that they want to protect vulnerable groups but they do nothing to ensure that local authorities do so. Indeed, there is not even any mention of vulnerable groups in the eligibility criteria for the transitional funding. They know full well, while also saying that local authorities should have regard to work incentives, that they are putting local authorities between a rock and hard place.
My own authority, Nottingham, is not going to protect vulnerable groups because it is going to spread the pain out among all working-age people. My noble friend Lord McKenzie has suggested that this is probably what many authorities are going to do. The Government can then turn around and blame the local authorities by saying that it is the local authorities that are refusing to protect vulnerable groups, having set up a scheme but not having given them enough money to ensure that they protect vulnerable groups. It really is not on. What are the Government going to do to monitor the impact of the new scheme on local groups? If this monitoring produces the evidence that vulnerable groups are not being protected, what action will the Government take? Ultimately the buck should stop with the Government, not with the local authorities, in terms of ensuring that vulnerable groups are protected.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for introducing this amendment and for his explanation, as well as the other speakers. Amendment 3 is quite a tight amendment—although we have rather waltzed away from it—that would require the Secretary of State to issue guidance setting out who is considered vulnerable for the purposes of local schemes.
As noble Lords are aware, the Government have made it clear that local authorities should make good provision for vulnerable people in their communities. However, we do not believe it would be helpful to create a new definition of vulnerability, particularly when local authorities already operate within a framework of responsibilities in relation to vulnerable groups. The Department for Communities and Local Government is at the moment working with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that local authorities will continue to receive appropriate data on current benefits and universal credit for those who would be considered vulnerable. This could include data that would help local authorities identify individuals they considered to be vulnerable, such as those who have a disability, so that they are able to provide that support in future.
As I said before, local authorities are well aware of their responsibilities and their own priorities and do not need further hand-holding by central government. I am satisfied that local authorities are already alive to the need to protect the vulnerable and to draft schemes, which many are considering, on how to support those they consider to be vulnerable. A number of councils, including Arun, South Tyneside, North East Lincolnshire, Portsmouth and Daventry, to name just a few, are all proposing schemes that make some special provision for people who the council consider particularly vulnerable, whether disabled people or families with young children.
As we have discussed previously, we have already published guidance that reminds local authorities of the statutory framework in which they operate and of their existing responsibilities in relation to people who are considered to be vulnerable. I am pleased to have had the opportunity, throughout our discussions at various stages of this Bill, to draw attention to these important responsibilities. As I indicated to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on Report, I am content and happy to bring this guidance to the attention of local authorities again, while alerting them to potential future legislative changes relating to carers, as set out in the draft care and support Bill, which they will also want to be aware of. However, given that local authorities already have an established and understood framework of statutory responsibilities in relation to promoting equality of treatment for individuals who are vulnerable through the design of their schemes, I do not believe that there is any value in creating new guidance.
I am aware, however, that a number of draft schemes propose a significant increase in the tax burden on those currently paying no council tax. It is disappointing that a number of councils have not felt able, in the light of their responsibilities towards vulnerable groups, to design schemes that avoid placing very great financial pressures on those least able to pay. That is why we have introduced the transition grant, to help those authorities which undertake to avoid significant cuts to awards in the first year, to find other more sustainable ways of managing the reduction in the future.
To be compliant with the grant criteria, an authority must develop a scheme that ensures that no one who would be eligible for 100% support based on current criteria can be asked to pay more than 8.5%. We have discussed that previously at length, so I do not need to go through the whole system again. I have the guidance here and I give a commitment to the House that it can be put forward again to local authorities to remind them of their duties.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Baroness Hanham(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Hanham
If it takes on the default scheme, it takes it on exactly. If it has to use a completely different scheme, it would have to consult on it and indeed it might not be able to give exactly the same benefits.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
I am sorry to prolong this, but I am getting a bit confused—well, not really, because I was confused to begin with. If there were a modified version of the default scheme, would that still count as the default? I think my noble friend is saying that some authorities will not be able to afford the default scheme as it stands because the 10% cut has got to come from somewhere, so if they take it out of the default scheme, would that still be called the default scheme modified or would it be considered a different scheme, which they would have to consult on?
Baroness Hanham
The default scheme is the default scheme, and the default scheme comes into operation in two ways. One is that the local authority does not have a scheme by the time we get around to 31 January next year, in which case the default scheme would be imposed. The second is that it can choose to use the default scheme as its scheme, and that will then still be the same. If it then does not have enough resources, it has to make the judgment as to where it gets those resources from. As I already explained to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that would not necessarily come just from the council tax support; it would come from its wider budget and whole programme.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, perhaps I may crave the Committee’s indulgence and go back to an issue that we discussed at our last meeting. Although this is not technically about the default scheme, it is about vulnerable people and about carers. The Minister very kindly wrote to my noble friend Lord McKenzie and copied the letter to other members of the Committee. It responded to our concerns about carers not being mentioned as a vulnerable group. In her letter, the Minister said,
“The guidance we have published on the statutory requirements in relation to vulnerable groups does not refer to carers”—
as we said—
“but as was made clear in the discussion, it is not intended to be exhaustive”.
The guidance talks about disabled people, duties under the Child Poverty Act, homelessness, and even the Armed Forces covenant. When local authorities have ticked all those boxes, and when they have addressed the requirement on them to take account of work incentives, very few local authorities will say, “Hang on, let's see if there are any other vulnerable groups that we should be thinking about”, and turn their attention to carers.
I ask the Minister to take this away, not to put it on the face of the Bill, but perhaps the department would consider reissuing the guidance so that it specifically mentions carers among vulnerable groups. I have not heard the Minister say anything to suggest that she does not think that carers are a vulnerable group. So if the Government accept that carers are a vulnerable group, and as we do not have concern for any other vulnerable groups that are not mentioned in the guidance, is there any reason why they could not be put in the guidance? My fear is that, yet again, carers will be overlooked.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Jenkin and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for their amendments and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for Amendment 88, which stands in her name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock.
It might be helpful, once again, to explain the Government’s intention in relation to the default scheme. I have done this a couple of times already today. The Bill provides that a default scheme should come into effect only where a billing authority fails to adopt a scheme before 31 January 2013. This is intended as a safeguard, to ensure that where a local authority fails to adopt a scheme by the deadline, there is still provision for people in financial need in that authority’s area to receive support with their council tax.
This scheme will be provided for in regulations and the Government have been clear that this default scheme should retain the criteria and allowances currently in place for council tax benefit. To this end, the Government have published a detailed statement of intent, setting out how they expect to provide for the default scheme in regulations, and confirming that the intention is to recreate, as far as possible, the current council tax benefit system in operation. Monday’s publication of draft regulations covering the default scheme should put beyond doubt our intentions in relation to the operation of the scheme.
These regulations also give an indication of how the default scheme will deal with claimants on universal credit, which we were discussing earlier. Regulations will need to take account of these claimants, but because of changes in the underlying calculation of the universal credit award, there may be some possible changes in the level of council tax support for those moving to universal credit. This is as a consequence of wider changes to benefits and the design of universal credit, and not a direct consequence of localisation. It is not intended that the default scheme will provide for any reductions in support where there is no change in circumstances; for example, which might be because someone has moved from an existing benefit to universal credit. Local authorities will still need to manage the 10% reduction in funding and there will therefore be a strong financial incentive for local authorities to avoid the imposition of a default scheme, as this will limit their ability to adjust awards to manage the funding reduction.
Amendment 83ZA would remove the default scheme from the Bill altogether. For the reasons I have explained, the amendment cannot be accepted. The default scheme is designed to be a safeguard to ensure that where a local authority fails to adopt a scheme by the deadline, there is still provision for people in financial need in that authority’s area to receive support for their council tax. That safeguard needs to remain in place.
Amendments 87 and 88 are intended to guarantee that under the default scheme there will be no reduction in the level of support for working-age persons and to put in place transitional protection for the persons whose support is reduced under the terms of the default scheme. Amendment 84 seeks similar protection for vulnerable groups.
I agree with the intention behind the amendments, but the Government already fully intend that the default scheme will retain the current criteria and allowances and do not intend there to be any change in the level of award where an individual’s circumstances are unchanged. In May, the Government published a detailed statement of intent on the default scheme, explaining that this will closely follow existing council tax benefit regulations, so the amendments are unnecessary.
The noble Baroness asked whether the statutory guidance would include carers. I think that is probably not necessary. The difficulty is that once you include carers, you have to include a whole lot of other people, which reduces the discretion.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
The point is that a whole lot of other people are already in the guidance that has already been issued. I am not sure whether it is statutory, but I worry that so many other groups are mentioned. I know that the list is not exclusive, but carers should be in the list because if they are not, they will be overlooked. I am not asking for any change in the statute or for the noble Baroness to give an answer now but for her to take it away to consider whether the department could reissue the guidance so that it explicitly mentions carers.
Baroness Hanham
I am very happy to look to see what the guidance actually includes and whether that would up with us trailing a huge long list, but I will do that before our next sitting and let the noble Baroness know in advance.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I take a rather different position, as the noble Lord would probably expect. Some of us here are refugees from the Welfare Reform Bill, which sat for what felt like many years, but certainly for many months. One of the few things that we achieved on that Bill, partly in response to amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Best, was a commitment to monitor various aspects of the changes.
That is important, regardless of what the noble Lord has just said. We are making a big change to the basic safety net by removing it from being a national benefit to being a local one. At the very least, we need to know as a Parliament what impact that is having on some of the poorest people in our communities. I am sure that the Minister will do this, but I cannot believe that the Government have no plans whatever to collect some form of information so that we know what effect it will have, especially if the DWP take-up statistics are now in doubt.
If we can achieve nothing else in this Committee, it would be good if we could achieve some commitment to monitoring the impact of what is a very significant change. My noble friend Lady Hollis has explained very well why it is such a significant change to our income maintenance provisions.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions. It will not be entirely a surprise when I say that I support my noble friend Lord Deben’s general emphasis on this issue.
Paragraph 7 of new Schedule 1A to the Local Government Finance Act 1992 is inserted by Schedule 4 to the Bill and enables the Secretary of State to require authorities to supply specified information to the Secretary of State. The Government, in their equality impact assessment of this reform, made it clear that the powers could be used to collect information to support future evaluation of the policy.
Council tax support will become part of the council tax system that we have been through today. The Government already collect key data for the council tax system, including data on exemptions and discounts. We are currently working with other government departments and local government to determine the necessary data that will be required in future as part of the council tax system, or through other mechanisms, to monitor the policy and how best to collect this. To ensure proper scrutiny, new requests for data from local government will need approval by the single data list gateway group, which has been established by this Government to consider and challenge new data requirements from local government.
Amendment 92 requires a report on the impact of work incentives. To do so would place another administrative burden on local authorities. The purpose of the policy is not to make local authorities report to the Government on work incentives; rather it is to encourage local authorities to get people back into work. It will not be in the interest of local authorities to lock their residents into poverty and low aspirations. They will want to design schemes which support claimants into work, and the department has issued guidance helping local authorities to understand the importance of work incentives and how they can design schemes which support the objectives of universal credit.
The second part of Amendment 93ZB would require the Government to adjust funding allocations to reflect any changes in the number of eligible claimants. The amendment does not make it clear whether this is funding from within the council tax support scheme or additional funding from outside. Funding for council tax support will be included as a fixed allocation within the business rate retention scheme. Councils will have the responsibility and flexibility to deal with these on a local level. Councils, in designing their schemes, will need to consider the risk of variation in demand. In relation to in-year fluctuations in demand, mechanisms are already in place to enable billing authorities and major precepting authorities to enter into arrangements. This will enable financial pressures as a result of unexpected increases to be shared.
The Government do not think that it will be necessary or helpful for local authorities to be asked to provide that a report be published in Parliament. There are transparency requirements on local authorities to make sure that all of what they do is understood and made clear and, where possible, put on the internet. We think that that will be sufficient to ensure that there is wide knowledge of what each local authority is doing.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Baroness Hanham(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Hanham
I suspect that they will stay in place, but I will answer that later. I will write to my noble friend. I do not want to be wrong because I am doing very well here.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
It seems unlikely that council tax benefit regulations will apply once council tax benefit is abolished, so rather than prolong the Minister’s agony, perhaps she will write to us as to what statutory authority will ensure that carers’ needs are taken into account as part of the vulnerability guidance.
Baroness Hanham
I do not want the noble Baroness to think that any of this has put me into agony. We will write about council tax benefit; but it is all there under the default scheme.
I was asked a number of questions—in fact, there have been a number of stirring speeches—and I have already responded to my noble friend Lady Browning: I do not think that guidance will be in the Bill, but the guidance is there now and she can see what it is.
I am sorry that I cannot remember who asked the question, but I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, about how the precepting authorities and the precepted authorities will work. There will be a requirement to consult: the billing authority will have to consult with the precepting authority to make sure that their policies are aligned. That seems to be the most sensible way of doing it and, presumably, if there is a great difficulty between one and the other, they will resolve it themselves.