Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Kidron and Lord Vallance of Balham

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for their proposed amendments and continued interest in Part 1 of this Bill. I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness that the definition of customer data is purposefully broad. It encompasses information relating to a customer or a trader and the Government consider that this would indeed include inferred data. The specific data to be disclosed under a smart data scheme will be determined in the context of that scheme and I reassure the noble Baroness that there will be appropriate consultation before a smart data scheme is introduced.

I turn to Amendment 5. Clause 13 provides statutory authority for the Secretary of State or the Treasury to give financial assistance to decision-makers, enforcers and others for the purpose of meeting any expense in the exercise of their functions in the smart data schemes. Existing and trusted bodies such as sector regulators will likely be in the lead of the delivery of new schemes. These bodies will act as decision-makers and enforcers. It is intended that smart data schemes will be self-financing through the fees and levies produced by Clauses 11 and 12. However, because of the nature of the bodies that are involved, it is deemed appropriate for there to be a statutory spending authority as a backstop provision if that is necessary. Any spending commitment of resources will, of course, be subject to the usual estimates process and to existing public sector spending controls and transparency requirements.

I hope that with this brief explanation of the types of bodies involved, and the other explanations, the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw Amendment 1 and that noble Lords will not press Amendment 5.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his reassurance, particularly that we will have an opportunity for a consultation on exactly how the smart data scheme works. I look forward to such agreement throughout the afternoon. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I will speak first to government Amendment 40, tabled in my name, concerning the ICO’s duty relating to children’s personal data. Before that, though, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Russell, the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, and in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for such considered debates on this incredibly important issue, both in today’s discussion in the House and in the meetings we have had together. Everyone here wants this to be effective and recognises that we must protect children.

The Government are firmly committed to maintaining high standards of protection for children, which is why they decided not to proceed with measures in the previous Data Protection and Digital Information Bill that would have reduced requirements for data protection impact assessments, prior consultation with the ICO and the designation of data protection officers. The ICO guidance is clear that organisations must complete an impact assessment in relation to any processing activity that uses children’s or other vulnerable people’s data for marketing purposes, profiling or other automated decision-making, or for offering online services directly to children.

The Government also expect organisations which provide online services likely to be accessed by children to continue to follow the standards on age-appropriate design set out in the children’s code. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, worked tirelessly to include those provisions in the Data Protection Act 2018 and the code continues to provide essential guidance for relevant online services on how to comply with the data protection principles in respect of children’s data. In addition to these existing provisions, Clause 90 already includes a requirement for the ICO to consider the rights and interests of children when carrying out its functions.

I appreciate the point that the noble Baroness made in Committee about the omission of the first 10 words of recital 38 from these provisions. As such, I am very happy to rectify this through government Amendment 40. The changes we are making to Clause 90 will require the Information Commissioner to consider, where relevant, when carrying out its regulatory functions the fact that children merit special protection with regard to their personal data. I hope noble Lords will support this government amendment.

Turning to Amendment 15 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, which excludes children’s data from Clause 68, I reassure her that neither the protections for adults nor for children are being lowered. Clause 68 faithfully transposes the existing concept of giving consent to processing for an area of scientific research from the current recital. This must be freely given and be fully revokable at any point. While the research purpose initially identified may become more specific as the research progresses, this clause does not permit researchers to use the data for research that lies outside the original consent. As has been highlighted by the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, excluding children from Clause 68 could have a detrimental effect on health research in children and could unfairly disadvantage them. This is already an area of research that is difficult and underrepresented.

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, cares deeply about this but the fact is that if we start to make research in children more difficult—for example, if research on children with a particular type of cancer found something in those children that was relevant to another cancer, this would preclude the use of that data—that cannot be right for children. It is a risk to move and exempt children from this part of the Bill.

Amendment 16 would prevent data controllers from processing children’s data under the new recognised legitimate interests lawful ground. However, one of the main reasons this ground was introduced was to encourage organisations to process personal data speedily when there is a pressing need to do so for important purposes. This could be where there is a need to report a safeguarding concern or to prevent a crime being committed against a child. Excluding children’s data from the scope of the provision could therefore delay action being taken to protect some children—a point also made in the debate.

Amendment 20 aims to prohibit further processing of children’s personal data when it was collected under the consent lawful basis. The Government believe an individual’s consent should not be undermined, whether they are an adult or a child. This is why the Bill sets out that personal data should be used only for the purpose a person has consented to, apart from situations that are in the public interest and authorised by law or to comply with the UK GDPR principles. Safeguarding children or vulnerable individuals is one of these situations. There may be cases where a child’s data is processed under consent by a social media company and information provided by the child raises serious safeguarding concerns. The social media company must be able to further process the child’s data to make safeguarding referrals when necessary. It is also important to note that these public interest exceptions apply only when the controller cannot reasonably be expected to obtain consent.

I know the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, hoped that the Government might also introduce amendments to require data controllers to apply a higher standard of protection to children’s data than to adults’. The Government have considered Amendment 22 carefully, but requiring all data controllers to identify whether any of the personal data they hold relates to children, and to apply a higher standard to it, would place disproportionate burdens on small businesses and other organisations that currently have no way of differentiating age groups.

Although we cannot pursue this amendment as drafted, my understanding of the very helpful conversations that I have had with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is that she intended for this amendment to be aimed at online services directed at or likely to be accessed by children, not to every public body, business or third sector organisation that might process children’s data from time to time.

I reassure noble Lords that the Government are open to exploring a more targeted approach that focuses on those services that the noble Baroness is most concerned about. The age-appropriate design code already applies to such services and we are very open to exploring what further measures could be beneficial to strengthen protection for children’s data. This point was eloquently raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Harding and Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and is one that we would like to continue. Combined with the steps we are taking in relation to the new ICO duty, which will influence the support and guidance it provides for organisations, we believe this could drive better rates of compliance. I would be very pleased to work with all noble Lords who have spoken on this to try to get this into the right place.

I turn to Amendment 27, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I agree with her on the importance of protecting children’s rights and interests when undertaking solely automated decision-making. However, we think this amendment, as currently drafted, would cause operational confusion as to when solely automated decision-making can be carried out. Compliance with the reformed Article 22 and the wider data protection legislation will ensure high standards of protection for adults and children alike, and that is what we should pursue.

I now turn to Amendment 39, which would replace the ICO’s children’s duty, and for which I again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Russell. As a public body, the ICO must adhere to the UK’s commitment to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and we respectfully submit that it is unnecessary to add further wording of this nature to the ICO’s duty. We believe that government Amendment 40, coupled with the ICO’s principal objective to secure an appropriate level of protection, takes account of the fact that the needs of children might not always look the same.

Finally, to address Amendment 45, the Government believe that the Bill already delivers on this aim. While the new annual regulatory action report in Clause 101 will not break down the activity that relates to children, it does cover all the ICO’s regulatory activity, including that taken to uphold the rights of children. This will deliver greater transparency and accountability on the ICO’s actions. Furthermore, Clause 90 requires the ICO to set out in its annual report how it has complied with its statutory duties. This includes the new duty relating to children.

To conclude, I hope that the amendment we tabled today and the responses I have set out reassure noble Lords of our commitment to protect children’s data. I ask noble Lords to support the amendment tabled in my name, and hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, feels content to withdraw her own.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

Before the Minister sits down, I have some things to say about his words. I did not hear: “agree to bring forward a government amendment at Third Reading”. Those are the magic words that would help us get out of this situation. I have tried to suggest several times that the Government bring forward their own amendment at Third Reading, drafted in a manner that would satisfy the whole House, with the words of the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, incorporated and the things that are fundamental.

I very much admire the Minister and enjoy seeing him in his place but I say to him that we have been round this a few times now and a lot of those amendments, while rather nerdy in their obsession, are based on lived experience of trying to hold the regulator and the companies to account for the law that we have already passed. I am seeking those magic words before the Minister sits down.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I have likewise enjoyed working with the noble Baroness. As has been said several times, we are all working towards the same thing, which is to protect children. The age-appropriate design code has been a success in that regard. That is why we are open to exploring what further measures can be put in place in relation to the ICO duty, which can help influence and support the guidance to get that into the right place. That is what I would be more than happy to work on with the noble Baroness and others to make sure that we get it right.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Kidron and Lord Vallance of Balham

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, I will very briefly speak to Amendment 30 in my name. Curiously, it was in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, in Committee, but somehow it has jumped.

On the whole, I have always advocated for age-appropriate solutions. The amendment refers to preventing children consenting to special category data being used in automated decision-making, simply because there are some things that children should not be able to consent to.

I am not sure that this exact amendment is the answer. I hope that the previous conversation that we had before the dinner break will produce some thought about this issue—about how automatic decision-making affects children specifically—and we can deal with it in a slightly different way.

While I am on my feet, I want to say that I was very struck by the words of my noble friend Lady Freeman, particularly about efficacy. I have seen so many things that have purported to work in clinical conditions that have failed to work in the complexity of real life, and I want to associate myself with her words and, indeed, the amendments in her name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I start with Amendment 26, tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose. As he said in Committee, a principles-based approach ensures that our rules remain fit in the face of fast-evolving technologies by avoiding being overly prescriptive. The data protection framework achieves this by requiring organisations to apply data protection principles when personal data is processed, regardless of the technology used.

I agree with the principles that are present for AI, which are useful in the context in which they were put together, but introducing separate principles for AI could cause confusion around how data protection principles are interpreted when using other technologies. I note the comment that there is a significant overlap between the principles, and the comment from the noble Viscount that there are situations in which one would catch things and another would not. I am unable to see what those particular examples are, and I hope that the noble Viscount will agree with the Government’s rationale for seeking to protect the framework’s technology-neutral set of principles, rather than having two separate sets.

Amendment 28 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would extend the existing safeguards for decisions based on solely automated processing to decisions based on predominantly automated processing. These safeguards protect people when there is no meaningful human involvement in the decision-making. The introduction of predominantly automated decision-making, which already includes meaningful human involvement—and I shall say a bit more about that in a minute—could create uncertainty over when the safeguards are required. This may deter controllers from using automated systems that have significant benefits for individuals and society at large. However, the Government agree with the noble Viscount on strengthening the protections for individuals, which is why we have introduced a definition for solely automated decision-making as one which lacks “meaningful human involvement”.

I thank noble Lords for Amendments 29 and 36 and the important points raised in Committee on the definition of “meaningful human involvement”. This terminology, introduced in the Bill, goes beyond the current UK GDPR wording to prevent cursory human involvement being used to rubber stamp decisions as not being solely automated. The point at which human involvement becomes meaningful is context specific, which is why we have not sought to be prescriptive in the Bill. The ICO sets out in its guidance its interpretation that meaningful human involvement must be active: someone must review the decision and have the discretion to alter it before the decision is applied. The Government’s introduction of “meaningful” into primary legislation does not change this definition, and we are supportive of the ICO’s guidance in this space.

As such, the Government agree on the importance of the ICO continuing to provide its views on the interpretation of terms used in the legislation. Our reforms do not remove the ICO’s ability to do this, or to advise Parliament or the Government if it considers that the law needs clarification. The Government also acknowledge that there may be a need to provide further legal certainty in future. That is why there are a number of regulation-making powers in Article 22D, including the power to describe meaningful human involvement or to add additional safeguards. These could be used, for example, to impose a timeline on controllers to provide human intervention upon the request of the data subject, if evidence suggested that this was not happening in a timely manner following implementation of these reforms. Any regulations must follow consultation with the ICO.

Amendment 30 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, would prevent law enforcement agencies seeking the consent of a young person to the processing of their special category or sensitive personal data when using automated decision-making. I thank her for this amendment and agree about the importance of protecting the sensitive personal data of children and young adults. We believe that automated decision-making will continue to be rarely deployed in the context of law enforcement decision-making as a whole.

Likewise, consent is rarely used as a lawful basis for processing by law enforcement agencies, which are far more likely to process personal data for the performance of a task, such as questioning a suspect or gathering evidence, as part of a law enforcement process. Where consent is needed—for example, when asking a victim for fingerprints or something else—noble Lords will be aware that Clause 69 clearly defines consent under the law enforcement regime as

“freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous”

and

“as easy … to withdraw … as to give”.

So the tight restrictions on its use will be crystal clear to law enforcement agencies. In summary, I believe the taking of an automated decision based on a young person’s sensitive personal data, processed with their consent, to be an extremely rare scenario. Even when it happens, the safeguards that apply to all sensitive processing will still apply.

I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for Amendments 31 and 32. Amendment 31 would require the Secretary of State to publish guidance specifying how law enforcement agencies should go about obtaining the consent of the data subject to process their data. To reiterate a point made by my noble friend Lady Jones in Committee, Clause 69 already provides a definition of “consent” and sets out the conditions for its use; they apply to all processing under the law enforcement regime, not just automated decision-making, so the Government believe this amendment is unnecessary.

Amendment 32 would require the person reviewing an automated decision to have sufficient competence and authority to amend the decision if required. In Committee, the noble Viscount also expressed the view that a person should be “suitably qualified”. Of course, I agree with him on that. However, as my noble friend Lady Jones said in Committee, the Information Commissioner’s Office has already issued guidance which makes it clear that the individual who reconsiders an automated decision must have the “authority and competence” to change it. Consequently, the Government do not feel that it is necessary to add further restrictions in the Bill as to the type of person who can carry out such a review.

The noble Baroness, Lady Freeman, raised extremely important points about the performance of automated decision-making. The Government already provide a range of products, but A Blueprint for Modern Digital Government, laid this morning, makes it clear that part of the new digital centre’s role will be to offer specialist insurance support, including, importantly in relation to this debate,

“a service to rigorously test models and products before release”.

That function will be in place and available to departments.

On Amendments 34 and 35, my noble friend Lady Jones previously advised the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that the Government would publish new algorithmic transparency recording standard records imminently. I am pleased to say that 14 new records were published on 17 December, with more to follow. I accept that these are not yet in the state in which we would wish them to be. Where these amendments seek to ensure that the efficacy of such systems is evaluated, A Blueprint for Modern Digital Government, as I have said, makes it clear that part of the digital centre’s role will be to offer such support, including this service. I hope that this provides reassurance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for Amendment 33, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for Amendment 41, and for their thoughtful comments on AI and automated decision-making throughout this Bill’s passage.

The Government have carefully considered these issues and agree that there is a need for greater guidance. I am pleased to say that we are committing to use our powers under the Data Protection Act to require the ICO to produce a code of practice on AI and solely automated decision-making through secondary legislation. This code will support controllers in complying with their data protection obligations through practical guidance. I reiterate that the Government are committed to this work as an early priority, following the Bill receiving Royal Assent. The secondary legislation will have to be approved by both Houses of Parliament, which means it will be scrutinised by Peers and parliamentarians.

I can also reassure the noble Baroness that the code of practice will include guidance about protecting data subjects, including children. The new ICO duties set out in the Bill will ensure that where children’s interests are relevant to any activity the ICO is carrying out, it should consider the specific protection of children. This includes when preparing codes of practice, such as the one the Government are committing to in this area.

I understand that noble Lords will be keen to discuss the specific contents of the code. The ICO, as the independent data protection regulator, will have views as to the scope of the code and the topics it should cover. We should allow it time to develop those thoughts. The Government are also committed to engaging with noble Lords and other stakeholders after Royal Assent to make sure that we get this right. I hope noble Lords will agree that working closely together to prepare the secondary legislation to request this code is the right approach instead of pre-empting the exact scope.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned edtech. I should add—I am getting into a habit now—that it is discussed in a future group.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

Before the Minister sits down, I welcome his words, which are absolutely what we want to hear. I understand that the ICO is an independent regulator, but it is often the case that the scope and some of Parliament’s concerns are delivered to it from this House—or, indeed, from the other place. I wonder whether we could find an opportunity to make sure that the ICO hears Parliament’s wish on the scope of the children’s code, at least. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will say similar on his own behalf.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

It will be clear to the ICO from the amendments that have been tabled and my comments that there is an expectation that it should take into account the discussion we have had on this Bill.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Kidron and Lord Vallance of Balham

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

As someone who has spent my life creating IP, protecting IP and sometimes giving IP away, I welcome this debate. I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for a very thoughtful set of proposals. The fact that many noble Lords have spoken in this debate shows that the rapid development of AI has clearly raised concerns about how to protect the creative industries. The Government take this very seriously. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, pointed out, we need to get it right, which is why we have launched a very wide-ranging consultation on a package of interventions to address copyright and AI issues. It is an important first step in an area where the existing situation is clearly not working and we run the risk of many long-lasting court cases, which will not help the situation in which we find ourselves.

We are committed both to supporting human-centred creativity and to the potential of AI to unlock new horizons. Many in the creative industries use AI very widely already. Our goal is to support AI innovation in the UK while maintaining robust protection for creators and our vibrant creative industry. In response to a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, raised earlier, option 1 in the consultation refers to existing copyright law and asks for views about maintaining and increasing it. The consultation sets out the Government’s objectives for this area and proposes a range of measures on which we are seeking views. Specifically, it aims to support rights-holders to continue to exercise control over the use of their content and their ability to seek remuneration for this. As many noble Lords have pointed out, that has to be made easy and technically feasible. It also promotes greater trust and transparency and proposes mechanisms by which you can see who is looking at the data and what they are doing with it.

Finally, it aims to support the development of world-leading AI models in the UK by ensuring that access can be appropriately wide but, of course, lawful and with the approval of those it is got from. This includes the subjects of the noble Baroness’s amendments. The consultation seeks views on technological measures that can provide greater control over access to and use of the online material, as well as transparency measures that help copyright owners understand whether their work is being used by AI developers. Again, this needs to be made easy. Various technologies are coming along which can do that, including, as has been said, the watermarking approach.

Much of this needs to be wrapped into an approach to standards. It is important that this is done in a way that is reproducible and reliable. Through this consultation, we will address some of these issues and seek to continue to get input from stakeholders on all of them. We will also work towards internationally interoperable solutions, as raised by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and the noble Earl, Lord Effingham.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that a vibrant and effective licensing approach—a system that works well and provides access and rights—is important. She asked about an impact assessment. I do not have the information with me now, but I will write. I look forward to updating her on this work in due course and, in the meantime, hope that she is content to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

Does the Minister recognise the characterisation of noble Lords who have said that this is theft? Currently, we have a law and copyright is being taken without consent or remuneration. Does he agree with them that this is what the creative industries and, I presume, some of his community are experiencing?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

At the moment we have a system where it is unclear what the rights are and how they are being protected, and therefore things are being done which people are unable to get compensation for. We can see that in the court cases going on at the moment. There is uncertainty which needs to be resolved.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his answer and welcome him very much to the Dispatch Box—I have not yet had the pleasure of speaking with him in a debate. I hope he saw the shaking heads when he answered my question about theft and this lack of clarity. If you say “Write me the opening chapter of a Stephen King novel”, and the AI can do it, you can bet your bottom dollar that it has absorbed a Stephen King novel. We know that a lot of this material is in there and that it is not being paid for. That goes for issues big and small.

I understand that it is late and we have more to do—I have more to say on other issues—but I want to reiterate three points. First, creative people are not anti-tech; they just want control over the things they create. AI is a creation on top of a creation, and creative people want to be paid for their efforts and to be in control of them. I am not sure whether I can mention it, because it was in a private meeting, but a brand that many people in most countries will have heard of said: “We need to protect our brand. We mean something. An approximation of us is not us. It is not just the money; it is also the control”.

I also make the point that, earlier this week, Canal+ had its IPO on the London Stock Exchange. I heard the CEO answer the question, “Why is it that Canal+ decided to come and do its IPO in the UK when everybody else is scarpering elsewhere?”, by saying a lot of very warm-hearted things about Paddington Bear, then, “Because you have very good copyright laws”. That is what they said. I just want to mention that.

Finally, I am grateful to the Minister for saying that there is the option of staying with the status quo; I will look at that and try to understand it clearly. However, when he writes about the issue that I raised in terms of opting in or opting out—I am grateful to him for doing so—I would also like an answer about where the Government think the money is going to go. What is the secondary value of the AI companies, which are largely headquartered in the US? Where will the IP, which those companies have already said they want to protect—they did so in their response to the Government’s consultation; I said that it in my speech, for anyone who was not listening—go? I would like the Government to say what their plans are, if we lose the £1.6 billion and the 2.4 million jobs, to replace that money and those jobs, as well as their incredible soft power.

With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.