Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Lucas

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th February 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. We are grappling with some important issues at the heart of Part 4 of the Bill. This group of amendments follows on quite neatly from our earlier debate, and it gives me a chance to put the other side of the problem. I have to say, the noble Lord, Lord Black, seemed to downgrade the scale of the problem we foresee. He also seemed to suggest that most businesses mean well and do well, but there are other things at stake here, such as the issues many consumers experience. I am not talking about the publishing world when I say that.

I have two amendments in this group, Amendments 173 and 174. Both are designed to address the concerns raised by consumer groups, including Which? and Citizens Advice: the problems with automatic contract renewals, such as whether somebody has satisfied the original minimum term of a phone contract, or completed a free trial in signing up to a streaming service. As the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, said, all too often consumers are not given sufficient notice to bring their contracts to an end without incurring additional charges, or find that they face a time-consuming and confusing cancellation process.

The noble Lord, Lord Black, said that the Government’s proposals are predicated on an erroneous assumption that consumers do not know what subscriptions they have. I take issue with that too. In the last year alone, people in the UK spent £500 million on subscriptions that auto-renewed without them realising, while unused or unwanted subscriptions cost people more than £306 million a year. The fact is that contracts are being renewed and prices increased with minimum notice and without clear opt-outs. Of course, this has more of an impact on marginal groups and those on low incomes.

We welcome the Government’s attempts to address these issues in Chapter 2, obviously, but we do not feel that these measures go far enough. Our Amendment 173 would allow the consumer to opt out of their subscription auto-renewing every six months, while Amendment 174 would allow the consumer to opt out of their subscription after a discounted trial. As has been said, the fact is that many people do not realise that they are entering into a long-term auto-renewing contract with a business or service, and it is often not in the interests of the trader to make that clear when the consumer signs up, or to help the consumer make a conscious decision to continue with the subscription once it is active. We need to ensure that the initial rush of enthusiasm for a purchase does not become a long-term financial burden.

In addition, the consumer may discover after a short time that the subscription does not live up to the hype they were sold when the contract was first signed. Again, we need to ensure that they can extract themselves, and their money, from paying for something they no longer want. Our amendments would achieve this, and I hope that noble Lords will consider supporting them.

I now turn to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Black. He made an impassioned speech about the future of the publishing sector, and we have every sympathy with what he had to say. What is clear to me is that we are talking about two different things. I am concerned that the noble Lord is forming some generalised conclusions, when there is no one-size-fits-all answer. Our amendments address the types of subscription that trap consumers—he says he does not agree with that—into paying for something they may no longer want or need. The subscriptions in the publishing world that he described are long-term ones freely given to a magazine or newspaper. They are akin to loyalty or membership subscriptions, which create, if you like, group awareness and consciousness. Of course, the same can be said for charity subscriptions to the National Trust, for example—consumers taking out a subscription for altruistic reasons, a topic we debated when we discussed gift aid on Monday.

We do not want to sabotage those freely given regular payments. However, although we are sympathetic to the general case made by the noble Lord, we do not necessarily agree that the way forward is to remove the provisions from the Bill and give the Secretary of State the power to regulate on this instead. That could mean putting at risk the hard-won protections from subscription traps that are already in the Bill. Similarly, while we are open to further discussion on this point, we are not convinced that a default 12-month period would benefit consumers.

However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Black, in his Amendment 185, that the reference to notifying a business that a subscription should cease

“in a single communication”

is oblique and could cause genuine confusion as to whether and how the communication is received. Therefore, we urge the Minister to address this issue and find a new form of words. There are a number of different models to choose from, but the key consideration will be whether and how we design businesses following good digital design processes to make it clear that people can communicate in a clear way.

As we know, too many traders make cancelling a contract more difficult than it should be, whether by forbidding online cancellations, putting customers on hold for extended periods or having multi-step cancellation processes, where a user is steered towards retaining the services. Whether we end up with a prominent button on a website, a dedicated email address or some other system, we must ensure an appropriate balance to make it easier for consumers to cancel a contract. Traders should have an opportunity to retain customers, perhaps through price reductions, but customers should not be placed under undue pressure or have to go through half a dozen steps to extract themselves from a contract. If the Bill were to say more about some basic design principles, some of these issues might be overcome. We would certainly welcome further discussions on this issue.

Finally, I have added my name to Amendment 190, tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. I will speak on this only briefly. He makes an important point. We will return to this question of who owns our non-personal data and our right to have it returned once businesses no longer need it in much more detail on the data protection Bill. I hope to have a longer debate with him on that basis, but I hope that the Minister can provide some reassurance that the Government are prepared to act on this issue.

In our earlier discussions, we had a huge amount of consensus, but we have gone in opposite directions on this issue. I think that we all want the same thing but are finding different words to deliver it. If we were locked in a room for half a day, we could probably come up with a solution. It might be quicker than writing lots of letters, which the Minister might otherwise have to do. I hope that we can find a way through this. We are not being deliberately awkward, but it is important that we get this right. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I wanted to wait until the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, had spoken, because I wanted the chance to agree with her amendment, which raises the same question that I was raising in Amendment 192. Why do you have to be locked into these subs? Why can you not be asked to resubscribe, if that is what you want to do? Why can we not give consumers a right to approach things that way and get to know a product before they know that they want it every year?

I echo what my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston said on newspapers. I would want to get to know the Daily Telegraph well enough to know that I want to pay for it every day. To be able to buy it once a week would be nice, but that is not an offer at the moment. Allowing consumers to get used to a product benefits business. As the noble Baroness demonstrates in her amendment, it also benefits the consumer. It should not just be a year’s subscription or nothing. We should encourage businesses to provide something in between. We certainly should not make renewal the only option that businesses look for. We should make them earn that renewal by providing a good product for a year so that customers do not want to have to be bothered with renewing it every year. That is a situation that one happily gets into with a number of charities. You know that you want to support them. They provide a good service and you just let it tick over. I do not think that anyone should be entitled to that position. They have to earn it; they have to prove it. To have a system where you do not have to tie yourself in at the beginning is estimable.

That said, I have a great deal of sympathy for what my noble friend Lord Black said. I would prefer to see a lot of this in secondary legislation. I understand that when someone cancels a subscription, the business wants a chance to correspond with them and have an argument, although I find it a huge irritant in my relationship with a business when I suddenly discover that it would do business with me on much better terms but only if I threaten to withdraw. I wish it would value me as a continuing customer and offer me good terms, rather than only benefiting discontented customers.

I think that there is a lot of good in all the amendments in this group. I echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said about the amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. I look forward to seeing that in the next Bill. I just draw his attention to the likes of Ancestry.com. Its business is the accumulation of everything that everyone has added to it. You subscribe to it, but all the time you are adding information that is then available to other people. Businesses should be allowed to retain the information that you have added, if that is appropriate. I can quite see that you might want your photographs returned from Flickr, but something like Ancestry or an app about building up information about history, ecology or whatever else it might be properly retains information that individuals have contributed and it ought to be possible for an app to have that in its terms.

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[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, to pick up the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on his two amendments, I can absolutely see where he is coming from on standard-essential patents. This reflects quite a long-term failure by successive Governments to support British participation in standards setting. If one looks at the history of the telecommunications industry from when I was young, when the British were dominant, to where they are now, which is nowhere, one of the great failures and one reason why things have not located or started in the UK has been that we have not committed sufficiently high-powered, consistent energy into standards setting. We have never quite been abreast of what is happening next or been the place where people want to locate a business. It is enormously important and I made a point on this in the Automated Vehicles Bill. It applies to a lot of technical areas and we must get behind standards setting.

In relation to Amendment 202 of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, how does one know how much is AI-generated? It is rather like asking how much of a Reynolds painting is by Reynolds. Did he just touch in the eyebrow and leave the rest to his servants? Does an AI grammar checker count as AI-generated content? If the AI has made suggestions of things that one might look at, is that AI-generated? I imagine that a lot of journalists now use AI to help fill out the column inches after a hard day’s doing something else. As the noble Lord knows, given his connections with academia, this is becoming common on both sides—the teachers and the taught—so what does finding a way in which to define “AI-generated” mean? Is it AI-supported or no involvement at all? Is it not using any of the tools at hand? This is a difficult concept to go at. Surely, at the end of the day, what matters with a piece of music is how good it is, not where it came from.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. This truly is a miscellaneous group of amendments and I will add to the miscellany of all this, because my Amendment 215A addresses the ambiguity that arises from the current laws on marketing infant formula.

Perhaps I may briefly explain the background as to why this is before us today. The Infant Formula and Follow-on Formula (England) Regulations 2007 were designed to prevent supermarkets promoting infant formula over breastfeeding. They arose because, prior to that, aggressive marketing and advertising techniques had been used by the milk formula industry to mislead parents over the best way in which to feed their babies. The current rules state that infant formula should not be advertised or promoted in a shop. They also say that no coupons, special sales offers, discounts or gifts should be offered to mothers or their families.

Meanwhile, noble Lords will be aware that the cost of infant formula has risen recently and is a huge extra burden on families, who are particularly suffering in the cost of living crisis. It is estimated that the cost increased by 22% in the past year alone. But because of the current regulations, supermarkets still cannot accept vouchers, even those provided by food banks and local authorities to purchase that infant formula. There have therefore been calls for the marketing rules to be reviewed to allow, for example, retailers to accept loyalty points, grocery vouchers and store gift cards, as well as free vouchers, for infant formula.

Our amendment addresses the current ambiguity in the regulations and calls for a review to clarify the marketing rules and their impact on the pricing and affordability of infant formula. This Bill is seen as the best mechanism to get this review under way. I should stress that our aims are to clarify the law and to tackle the unfair pricing currently taking place. However, we want to ensure that parents remain protected from the aggressive advertising that has misled them in the past. I hope that noble Lords and the Minister will see the sense of this amendment.

On a completely different issue, I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about double- glazing. I agree that he made an important point. I did not know that there were still double-glazing salesmen, but he raised them so I am sure there must be. I agree with him that, if they still exist, they should be regulated.

I turn to a completely different issue again. I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Holmes and Lord Clement-Jones, for their amendments on AI. We look forward to debating the Private Member’s Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on AI regulation in the coming weeks. These Benches take this issue hugely seriously. We recognise that AI has the potential to deliver life-changing benefits for working people, from early cancer diagnosis to relieving traffic congestion, but these benefits must be set firmly in new standards and new regulation to keep people safe and their data protected. The EU and the US are speeding ahead on this while the UK is dragging its heels, so we believe that new regulations on the control of AI are essential.

I listened carefully to the noble Lords. I do not disagree with what they are trying to achieve but I query whether this is the right place to pursue these amendments. The data protection Bill will come before the House shortly; that will give us a much greater opportunity to address the impact of AI on the lives of consumers and citizens. I hope that we will have a really detailed exploration of the protections needed in that Bill at that time. However, having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on music labelling just now, I realise that I cannot just pass this issue on to the data protection Bill in the way I wanted to, because he made an important point about the consumer issues arising. Again, I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who challenged this and asked, “How can we know? What percentage of music is AI?”

Environment (Local Nature Recovery Strategies) (Procedure) Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Lucas

Monday 10th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Willis, who has made an excellent case today as to why the omissions in these regulations need to be urgently addressed.

Throughout the development of local nature recovery strategies, we have been hugely supportive of the concept. There is no doubt that they have the potential to be an important vehicle for the delivery of many of our environmental ambitions set out in the Environment Act. Already, around the country, councils are coming together at county level to address the challenges of meeting our environmental targets locally, and they want to make the process work. However, as the Minister knows, we already have concerns about the status of those local nature recovery strategies once they are produced. Without the right legislative underpinning, there is a risk that much of their work will go to waste and we will lose the enthusiasm and good will of those involved in the process.

Under the current wording of the Environment Act, planning authorities are required only to have regard to the LNRS as part of a general biodiversity duty. That is why the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and I have tabled an amendment to the levelling-up Bill which would require local planning authorities to deliver the objectives of the relevant local nature recovery strategy in their development plans. We will debate this further when the amendment comes up on Report, and I hope that we can make some progress at that point in resolving the issue. I am very grateful to the Minister for meeting us to discuss this last week. I hope that he is able to come back with a little more information—we were rather hoping for some alternative proposals. Given that the amendment is potentially due next week, we are running out of time. I just say that as a general nudge. I mention it also because it is symptomatic of a very narrow interpretation of the role of local nature recovery strategies, combined with overreliance on guidance notes rather than the formal statutory underpinning which can deliver real change.

I thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Willis, made a very powerful case for the combined local nature recovery strategies to connect up and form a national nature recovery network. This could provide the essence of the well-known Lawton ambition of “bigger, better and more joined up”, which everyone understands to be the holy grail of nature recovery. But nowhere in these regulations is this spelled out as an objective. There is no requirement for county-based representatives to look over the border to see what approach their neighbours are taking. There is no overarching objective of joined-up corridors across the country which could facilitate the spread of flora and fauna across wide landscapes. There is no requirement to look at the wider geographic challenges or to use the opportunities that the current protected landscapes such as national parks and AONBs could provide.

While there is a role for Natural England in advising on the habitat and species priorities, there is no obligation for wider collaboration between local nature recovery partnerships or for a national map to be produced. Why has Defra largely omitted the need for such national connectivity from the regulations and guidance, which the noble Baroness has been a great champion of and has made a powerful case for today?

There is a further obstacle to the development of a national nature recovery plan in that each local authority is required to publish its recovery strategy on its website. That is good, but there is no requirement for these websites to be on a shared platform. There is a danger that we will end up with 48 individual proposals, with artificial political boundaries, that bear no relation to one other in the language used, impact on habitat and species revival, and other deliverables towards the targets. Equally, there is no requirement for quality control, so the local nature recovery strategies may well vary in scope, evidence and ambition.

Can the Minister explain whether a national online platform for LNRSs is being considered, and how we can be assured that a quality assurance programme will be enacted to ensure that the objectives set out in the Environment Act really are being delivered? I look forward to his response.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I take a much more optimistic view of these regulations, although I expect to be in the lists with the noble Baronesses opposite when it comes to their status in terms of planning regulations. These are local nature recovery strategies, whereas both noble Baronesses appear to want a national nature recovery strategy, imposed from the top down. I think that 30 by 30 will work only if it becomes an intensely personal local thing, if it exists in every community and is worked out locally in a way that suits local people within the context of an overarching national objective that is not set out not as obligations but ambitions. I am dead certain that local wildlife trusts and many other locally based nature organisations will support what is going on and be part of it, but I see no reason to despair that these things are not centrally specified. It is their great strength that they are local.

There is a general question for all the nature-related organisations as to how they gather data so that it is synchronised. I hope that Defra is talking to the Natural History Museum about that so that we have a common structure and that the data each of us gathers in all the organisations we are involved in can find a common use. Why should Sussex have to express its local nature recovery strategy in the same framework as central London? It is just daft. This is local—we should be expressing our local convictions and ambitions.

There is provision in this for the consultation draft to be given to neighbouring authorities, which will doubtless result in some co-ordination, but surely the key to this is being local. If it is to be effective, that means local people in the driving seat.

Environment Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Lucas

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I entirely share the concerns expressed with such clarity by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I am a total devotee of freedom of information; indeed, I managed to get a Second Reading of my Freedom of Information Bill in the House of Lords on 10 February 1999, rather in advance of the Government’s own. As the Minister knows from our previous discussions, I am also a total devotee of openness. Both those concerns of mine are engaged by the Bill as it is now written.

When it comes to environmental information, we ought to be more open, not less. Environmental information is so much a public matter and of such widespread individual public concern that we should not be looking, simply for the convenience of the system, to hide it away. I very much look forward to the Minister’s explanation of why the Bill is written as it is.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope to speak quite briefly on this issue. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Rooker for spelling out the case so thoroughly and for raising the important question of transparency. He has rightly underlined the importance of open government and of the OEP being seen to act in the public interest. That is particularly true on environmental matters, where in the past there has been a tendency to cover up environmental damage and pollution, and those accused have deliberately drawn out proceedings to delay prosecution.

As it stands, the Bill contains two prohibitions on disclosure of information. The first appears to override the existing right of access to information under the environmental information regulations. The second appears to contravene the Aarhus convention, the international treaty that underpins the EIR.

Under the Bill, the OEP has a clear obligation to monitor progress in environmental protection and investigate complaints of serious failure by public bodies, but it seems that the OEP could not disclose information obtained for these purposes unless the supplier of the information consented. Similarly, information obtained during the OEP’s enforcement activity would be kept secret until the OEP decided to take no further action. That appears to be much more of a blanket ban than the current provision of the EIR, which limits disclosure only if it would

“adversely affect the course of justice”.

The Explanatory Notes take a different view, claiming that Clause 42 is compliant with the Aarhus convention, but it creates a caveat based on a “confidentiality of proceedings” exception. It is not clear how that will be defined.

To avoid any confusion on the important issue of public access to information, and to protect the OEP from accusations of unnecessary secrecy, it makes sense to clarify in the Bill that the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 and connected freedom of information Acts take precedence. We therefore welcome the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Wills that have been ably moved by my noble friend Lord Rooker. I hope the Minister will see the sense in these amendments, which would provide useful clarification of our obligations under national and international law.

Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Lucas

Monday 18th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, comparing schools is a complicated business and you have to take all sorts of things into account. Exam results are part of that. To have the marks finely graded makes them a better part of measuring how schools have behaved. When the system gets used to it, such information will be better for students in that they could show that, for example, they are in the top 1 per cent nationally or that they only missed a C by one mark. In either sense, students would benefit from being able to display them.

Students can get the marks under certain circumstances now. If you ask for a regrade, you get to see what your marks have been but, because you cannot see everybody else’s marks or what the universe of marks looks like, there is very little you can do with that. So they exist but they are not disclosed.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I want to make a couple of comments. First, much of the anxiety about the current grading system is because people have lost confidence in the way that the examinations are marked at the moment. I remember that, when I was doing O-levels and such-like many moons ago, there was much more confidence in the marking system and the legitimacy and accuracy of the examination boards. Maybe that was misplaced but that was certainly how I was brought up. Perhaps the scandals in recent times about the quality of the marking and so on have raised concerns and people want to dig deeper to know the underlying marks, which is understandable.

I am anxious, however, as to how this would work in practice. If the grades and the marks are published and if some children will only be two or three marks below the next grade up, if you run that parallel system of marks and grades, you will engender a lot of new appeals because anyone who is a short step away from the next grade up will flood the market with appeals. Unless we have a mechanism for managing that, therefore, there will be more discontent than satisfaction. I am not sure the system can run in parallel in the way the noble Lord is proposing. It may be, however, that the famous e-mail, which I should have seen but have not, spells out what the Government intend and will satisfy those points.

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[Lord Lucas]

The amendment is self-explanatory. As I have had a very clear and supportive e-mail from the Government today, which I hope has been widely circulated, I shall leave it at that and beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I support the amendment and have read the helpful letter from the noble Lord, Lord Hill. I restate how much I agree that getting schools to apply for licences in the past has been a very unwieldy way to get them to put on fairly simple forms of entertainment. I very much support the Live Music Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, to which the letter of the noble Lord, Lord Hill, referred. I am very pleased to hear that the Government will be supporting it in its progress through Parliament. That obviously goes much wider than dealing with live music in schools; nevertheless, it will be helpful.

When I said to my colleagues that I was also very pleased that the Government had committed to looking at the Licensing Act 2003, they said, “You’re going to regret saying that, because it took us for ever to get a half-decent balance on licensing music and alcohol provision. Good luck to you”. My instinct is that we should look again at the Licensing Act. I am pleased that the Government will be doing that, and I look forward to that debate.

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[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, about 5,000 English sixth-form school pupils a year take Open University modules, which is a very good approach to this matter and something that we will come to on the 25th. Those modules are not reflected in the performance tables, and the data on the performance of these children are not available to celebrate their achievements and those of their schools, as I think should be the case. It should be possible for children who are capable of taking on these things to be allowed to expand and flourish, and for schools to be rewarded for that in a way that they understand—that is, through recognition and, indeed, money. At the moment, the YASS scheme seems to exist on the good will of schools and their interest in the attainment of their brightest pupils, rather than on any great support from the Government.

It is wonderful for me to find myself agreeing with my noble friend Lord Blackwell. I have often found myself in opposition to him but I think that he has struck a very clear note here and I am very happy to support him. Of course, I agree with other noble Lords that there are many ways of doing this, and mathematics taught as a mixed-ability subject can be very strong. I recommend my noble friend to the works of Professor Jo Boaler on that subject. We know from the Oxbridge admissions statistics how much we are generally failing in this area. We need to do much more to give the brightest children from the poorest backgrounds the education and ambition that they deserve.

However, as it is fashionable to talk about international comparisons, I also point out that Singapore reckons that half of its most crucial entrepreneurs were in the bottom 10 per cent at school, so it is not just the bright children who need our attention.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, this debate has been a model of brevity. We have got in an enormous number of points in a very short period. Perhaps we could learn something from that. Therefore, I shall not prolong the debate, given the lateness of the hour and the fact that most of the points that I was going to make have been covered.

The debate has underlined for me that the whole thrust of the Government’s future schools programme is based on school autonomy and that we are rowing back here in talking about schools needing to co-operate. Someone pointed out that local authorities used to provide some of that element of co-operation for specialist education, whether it was for specialist GCSEs and A-levels or whatever. We are trying to reinvent the wheel when some of those mechanisms were already there to provide at least some of that.

I very much agree with what has been said. I had a similar question to that of my noble friend Lady Morris concerning what happened to the gifted and talented scheme.

My only other concern relates to the wording of, particularly, Amendment 106, which talks about,

“high ability or aptitude for learning”,

as being the only area for which we should make special provision. Again, I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, and others, who said that talent goes far beyond academic talent. If we are to pursue this, I hope that the mover of the amendment will look to broaden it out. I am not trying to water it down, but talents and gifts come in all sorts of forms. As much as we need leaders who are academically bright, we need sports men and women who are world leaders, and there are lots of different ways in which we want our children to excel and eventually to provide leadership in this country. Therefore, I have a concern about the wording of the amendment, although I think that there is an enormous amount of agreement around the Room about how we should go forward on this issue.