Health and Care Bill

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, used the important word “contention”—a contention that there is a tension between the rights of women and those of trans women. He and I disagree about that because I believe that they both deserve to be treated properly and respectfully. I believe that the Equality Act enables that to happen.

It is that Act which enables there to be single-sex provision. It is precisely because there are occasions and times when it is important for that to happen that we have to embody it in law, otherwise it could not exist. That is why under the Equality Act there is a specific statement that there should be safeguards in place, that there are special circumstances where treatment needs to be sex-specific, and that where it is assessed that a trans person should be put in an otherwise gendered ward, such departures are allowed but they need to be proportionate to achieving “a legitimate aim”. Like my noble friend Lady Brinton, I do not believe that making assumptions about a person because of the way they look is a legitimate aim.

I have listened carefully to all the speeches that have been made, and they have contained some very powerful contentions and assertions. What they have not contained is any evidence at all that this is a significant problem in the NHS. The amendments would cause a significant problem in the NHS—for all patients, not just trans patients, if one thinks through the implications of what has been written in them.

Day to day, NHS staff routinely have to deal with patients of all sorts, with all sorts of difficult problems, and as professionals they make judgments day in, day out about what is appropriate care. Unless and until there is significant evidence that backs up the assertions and contentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, and the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, I believe we should leave them with the guidance that has worked perfectly well up till now.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I intend to be brief because we do not believe that these two amendments are either necessary or appropriate in the context of the Health and Care Bill. If the Equality and Human Rights Commission is conducting a wider review into single-sex services then we should consider those issues at that time, but not in the context of this Bill.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that the Equality Act 2010 and the 2019 NHS guidance Delivering Same-Sex Accommodation already provide an effective mechanism for inclusion in the context of single-sex wards. The two amendments seek to cut across long-standing provisions in both the Act and the guidance. There is no substantial evidence to suggest that the status quo is not working and that NHS professionals are unable to use the existing guidance, which clearly sets out the principles and practice to be followed.

We also consider that the amendments could do harm if implemented, because they would create a blanket rule requiring trans women to be treated on men’s wards and trans men to be treated on women’s wards. At best, that would create an environment contrary to the dignity and well-being of the patients. At worst, it would leave trans patients at the risk of harm and abuse by outing them in a public context at a time when they are particularly vulnerable.

Like other noble Lords, we have received a detailed briefing from Stonewall imploring us to oppose these amendments. Given that we do not consider that the Bill is the right place for the consideration of these issues, we will not be lending our support to the amendments.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Blencathra for bringing this discussion before the Committee and to my noble friend Lady Nicholson for taking the time to meet to discuss this issue, on which she is a strong advocate.

It clearly arouses strong feelings, but it is really important that we remember two principles: dignity and respect. There are people who feel they were born in the wrong body, and we should respect their rights as trans men or trans women; at the same time, there will be some women in wards who, on seeing someone who, to them, seems like a man, may feel slightly vulnerable at a particularly vulnerable time—in hospital. It is right that we get the right balance.

I hope noble Lords will be aware that NHS England is currently reviewing the Delivering Same-Sex Accommodation guidance to ensure that it remains focused on privacy, safety and dignity for all patients. The NHS is committed to meeting its duties under the Equality Act and, as such, needs to give due regard to both those whose gender identity is the same as their biological sex at birth and those whose gender identity is not. This means that the rights and needs of women and trans women are equal in law.

Following the review, the new content of the guidance will be informed by engagement with a wide range of stakeholders and by the statutory duties of the NHS outlined in the Equality Act 2010, including the public sector equality duty. NHS England is currently under- taking this review and is fully aware of its importance. The guidance, which will be updated if appropriate, is due to be published later this year. I call on noble Lords not to pre-empt the outcome of the guidance review. Any guidance will—indeed, must—be compatible with the requirements and duties placed on NHS bodies by the Equality Act 2010.

I am aware that concerns have been raised about the safety of women in single-sex wards. We, as a Government, believe that violence of any kind has no place in NHS facilities. We expect that hospital staff will act in the best interests of all patients and can, if necessary, call on security staff and law enforcement to ensure that everyone is safe. I repeat my request to my noble friend Lady Nicholson for evidence of such cases, whether it be women who feel uncomfortable or patients or staff who have raised concerns and been accused of being transphobic. If that is the case, I ask her to bring these cases to my attention and we can look at them further.

However, given that NHS England is currently reviewing the guidance, I hope noble Lords can appreciate the need to allow it time to review it in full. I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I too support this amendment, which is absolutely in tune with reducing health inequalities for a particular section of our population and should be warmly supported across the House.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for this amendment. Like others, I pay tribute to her tremendous work on behalf of people with learning difficulties and autism, which we all acknowledge and respect.

The amendment would reinforce and hasten the implementation of and the legislative basis for the Government’s commitment to developing a mandatory training and professional development system for health and social care staff. It would also establish a statutory code of practice, to be updated every three years, setting out guidance on the content, accreditation, delivery, monitoring and evaluation of the training.

The NHS England pilots for the modules to support the development of the training are currently under way, as the noble Baroness said. They involve key stakeholders, including Mencap and the National Autistic Society. It would be helpful if the Minister could provide the Committee with an update on the progress and timescale for completing and assessing the pilots and for moving forward and implementing the new training system.

The amendment is comprehensive in terms of both amending the 2014 regulations under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 and setting out issues that the code must address, including the relevant core education and training frameworks and strategies applying to learning disabilities and autistic people. It also contains the definitions of autism and learning disability on which the code should be based.

In this debate, we are all sadly reminded of the tragic death of Oliver McGowan, who died after those treating him medicated his autism incorrectly. His mother’s petition and determined campaign for mandatory training is thankfully coming to fruition, so that we can ensure that all staff receive proper training and can develop the skills and experience needed to provide the safest and most effective care and support for people with learning difficulties and autism. Including the mandatory training requirement on the face of the Bill would be a major step forward and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I too am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for bringing the important matter of staff training on learning disability and autism for the health and social care workforce before the Committee today. Evidence tells us that there is a pressing need to improve understanding and awareness of learning disability and autism among health and social care staff and that the staff themselves want this training. Introducing mandatory training is an important way in which we can address persistent disparities in health and care outcomes for people with a learning ability and autistic people. As we set out in the Right to Be Heard publication of November 2019, the Government have committed to requiring all NHS and social care providers who carry out regulated activities to ensure that their staff have achieved the learning outcomes relevant to their role.

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[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I would also like to speak quickly on these amendments. The last suite of amendments was about professionals having confidence in the health service. Patient data is the bedrock of individuals and citizens having confidence in their health service and how their data is used. I used the phrase “living in a parallel universe” in Committee a few days ago. Today, the Government published Joining up Care for People, Places and Populations, their proposals for health and social care integration. On reading chapter 4 on digital and data, it would appear that we are living in a parallel universe, because there are clear issues about what the Government say this integration will be. The document states:

“This will ensure each ICS has a functional and single health care and adult social care record for each citizen by 2024”.


There is nothing about opt-out. This is a very clear view about what will happen. I will explain why it is a fantasy world in a minute.

I come back to Amendment 300 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. There is a really important thing about the standard process for opt-out. In the area where I live, there is a DGH, a teaching hospital, a community care trust, a mental health trust, a maternity unit, a social care provider—it could be the council or from the voluntary and third sector—and my GP. If there is no standardised approach to opt-out, it will be needed in nine or 10 organisations. That is why we need a standard opt-out approach. It is absolutely wrong for the citizen to trail through nine different organisations, probably with nine different processes, if they wish to opt out, because not every citizen may wish to be part of a single health and adult social care record by 2024. I hope that most will, because they are important, but there is the issue of opt-out.

The document goes on to state how data will be used; it goes way beyond individual healthcare. It talks about population health platforms, and how data will be used and can be directed with a single standard from the centre. On information governance, paragraph 4.15 says that

“This will make sure that when it is accessed or provided (for whatever purpose), it is in a standard form, both readable by and consistently meaningful to the user or recipient”.


It is good to have it in a standard form but “for whatever purpose” leads to a wider definition. The document also says that the standard will be laid out in the Bill but, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, that is at the direction of the Secretary of State through regulation, which is worrying.

I ask the Minister, clearly, how this new document fits with the Bill we are discussing. Why, yet again, is a White Paper ahead of the legislation we are talking about today? There are things we could amend that would stop some of the things in this White Paper.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I will respond to the debate, but my comments apply equally to the next group, so I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, will forgive me if I do not respond to that group separately. We have heard some very thoughtful and persuasive contributions to the debate on these amendments this evening, and once again my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, have very eloquently led the charge. I congratulate them on their contributions and the constructive detail of their proposals. Issues such as this require some specific proposals to have any meaning and their amendments very much do that: they spell out some solutions to the challenges we face. I also welcome the specific proposal from the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, who made the case well for a single identifier for children.

The underlying issues around the use of information collected by the NHS are not new. As we know and have heard, the NHS is almost unique in being a single player in this field, at least for some purposes. It can and often does lead the world in its ability to collect and aggregate patient data to drive improvement and for other non-profit-making purposes.

Since the organisational changes of the 1990s, data collection and use have been well developed, and information and analysis—for example, from the Secondary Uses Service and some GP sources—have been extensively used by academics and researchers, as well as operational managers, to huge public benefit. But we have struggled, as we have heard. Despite hugely expensive meanders into, for example, the National Programme for IT, we are far from the goal of integrated data sharing, even in a single hospital, let alone all hospitals, let alone for all care. Clearly, technical, legal and cultural barriers need to be overcome before we can maximise the use of all the data collected.

As noble Lords have pointed out, the groundswell of opposition to data collection and the related concerns about who gets to use it and for what purposes runs along these barriers. We know that the NHS often has dismal communications—for example, around CareCo and the recent changes to the use of GP data, which we have heard about this evening.

Although we do not own our data, there is a very powerful set of legal protections over what data can be collected and stored about us and what it can be used for. If the public had absolute confidence in the systems and usage rules, there would be far fewer objections to their information being used to drive improved healthcare, innovative drugs research or better preventive or public health information programmes. But the reality is that concerns are widespread—about data breaches, about NHS data reaching people who do not need to see it and, more recently, as we have heard, about data being used by a number of unethical organisations and private companies to drive profitability rather than for the improvement of public health.

Many patients would wish to be able to refuse to allow data collected about them to be used simply to drive a better marketing campaign for slimming or cosmetic aids but would allow their data to be aggregated so that better drugs could be developed and treatments improved to save lives; that would be an altogether different matter. Amendment 305A, in the name of my noble friend Lord Hunt, on establishing a sovereign health fund to invest in data-driven healthcare assets to generate long-term income for health and care makes that point, and I am sure it would have public support.

The key principle should be that all data collected for the purposes of care should be held and controlled by the public sector and its use protected. It should be subject to ethical guidelines and independently verified by an expert oversight group. These amendments would strengthen these rights in those regards.

Anyone who visited a hospital 20 years ago and walked around would probably have come across a trolley stacked with files that could easily have been removed or read. However, IT and the ability to aggregate vast amounts of data, allowing serious data breaches, is a modern and valid concern. My noble friend Lord Davies illustrated this with specific concerns about smart programmes which can identify individual people from a very small amount of data about their lives.

So we do feel that these amendments would be a very helpful way to address the underlying and fundamental problems of the lack of patient and public confidence in how their data is going to be used and shared. I hope the Minister, the noble Baroness—no, it is the noble Lord—agrees that these proposals offer a helpful way forward in addressing these concerns. While we will not press the amendments to a vote this evening, I hope he is able to offer some reassurance that some of these practical proposals will be taken forward by the Government.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Let me assure the noble Baroness that I was not trying to opt out of my duty to respond.

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this important debate. I reassure many noble Lords across the House that when I first became a Minister, I had many of these questions myself—and I continue to have them, if I am perfectly honest.

I will turn first to the amendments before deciding how to go forward, as it were. In response to Amendment 298, Clause 81 explicitly mentions NHS England as a body to which mandatory information standards can be applied. As set out in this clause, the exact procedure for publishing information standards, as well as any procedure for granting waivers in respect of compliance with these standards, will be set out in regulations subject to parliamentary scrutiny under the affirmative procedure. The regulations may set out limits on the circumstances in which a waiver may be granted. For example, a temporary waiver might be considered where an organisation does not have funding in place to implement the required changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, also referred to accredited data access environments and rightly acknowledges that their function is not just to support research but for analysis to support service planning, as well as other essential activity. I believe that we are fulfilling our promises to the profession and the public at the moment, but clearly more could be done. We have made clear that data collection for General Practice Data for Planning and Research will now begin only when: first, we have in place the ability to delete data if patients choose to opt out of sharing their GP data with NHS Digital; secondly, a trusted research environment is available, where approved researchers can work securely on deidentified patient data; and, lastly, a campaign of engagement and communication has increased public awareness, explaining how data is used and patient choices.

In addition, the Government have committed to developing, this year, rules for such data environments in the NHS, including technical specifications and a framework for accreditation. However, while we expect secure data environments to be appropriate for the vast majority of uses, there are likely to be exceptions. For example, where patient consent has been given for data to be made available to an external researcher or organisation, or where there is a court order requiring data, it may have to leave the secure data environment. I assure the noble Lord that we will continue to examine how secure data environments operate and are governed, to make sure that they are fit for the future.

Brexit: Food Standards Regulations

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I can tell the noble Baroness that we will do everything necessary to make sure we maintain the same high standards of protection that we have now.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, if there is a no-deal outcome, the UK will no longer have access to EU safety assessment data for food products on which we currently rely. Given that 10,000 containers of food come from the EU daily, are the Government intending to inspect each of them at the ports or are they going to let them through with minimal checks, in which case, surely we are risking a public health scandal as a result?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

We hope for and expect to have arrangements meaning that we can continue to access systems such as the Rapid Alert System for food and feed. This is one of the ways we gain such information. Sharing such information in the trade of food is obviously mutually beneficial. We are, of course, planning for non-participation. This means looking for other kinds of agreements with both EU and international bodies to make sure that food alerts can be shared and that we can provide that level of safety.

Brexit: Food Standards Agency

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to enhance the role of the Food Standards Agency after Brexit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O’Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government, including the Food Standards Agency, are committed to making sure that the high standards of food safety and consumer protection that we currently enjoy in this country are maintained as the UK leaves the European Union. From day one after Brexit, the FSA is committed to having in place a robust and effective regulatory regime, which will mean that business can continue as normal.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. However, given that a range of EU agencies, including the European Food Safety Authority, protect us from food scares, contaminated products, misleading labelling and so on, can we be sure that the FSA will have the resources, science and skills to fulfil the noble Lord’s guarantee that UK food will be safe as from exit day? When will it receive clarification of its post-Brexit responsibilities? Finally, does he also agree that the 2 Sisters chicken scandal, which noble Lords will know came to light from an undercover investigation and not from an FSA check, illustrates the importance of regular and robust inspection on the ground in the future, rather than just a reliance on data-sharing and self-regulation by food companies?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I can certainly reassure the noble Baroness that the Food Standards Agency is getting the resources it needs, as well as a stable funding settlement across the spending review period. The Chancellor announced £14 million more for it for 2018-19. That money will also beef up—excuse the pun—the National Food Crime Unit to make sure that it can investigate the kinds of cases that she has highlighted. As for the ongoing relationship with the EU, it is important to recognise that during the implementation period we will continue to access food information-sharing systems. We will continue to have food risk assessments carried out on our behalf by the European Food Standards Authority, and the Commission will make risk-management decisions that affect the UK. We will continue to be part of that system until the end of the implementation period. Naturally, what happens after that is a matter for negotiation.

Children and Families Bill

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

57BC: Before Clause 80, insert the following new Clause—
“Welfare of children: housing benefit
(1) The Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2006 are amended as follows.
(2) In regulation B13 (determination of maximum rent (social sector)), inserted by regulation 5 of the Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2012—
(a) in paragraph (5), at beginning insert “Subject to paragraph (5A)”; and(b) after paragraph (5) insert—“(5A) The relevant authority shall make a determination that the restriction to one bedroom under paragraph (5) does not apply if it is in the interests of the welfare of a child or the children living in the dwelling to make such a determination.””

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendment is about the impact of the bedroom tax on children. I refer noble Lords to my housing association interests recorded in the register.

This simple amendment would allow local authorities to put the welfare of the child first when assessing the appropriate occupancy level in a home. Many aspects of the bedroom tax are unfair and unjust, and we have raised them repeatedly in this House. This amendment picks on one simple theme which has quite rightly dominated our consideration of the Bill so far: that the interests and the welfare of the child should always come first. This issue has united us around the Chamber, and I hope that noble Lords will support the continuation of this principle, reflected in this amendment.

We already know that the bedroom tax hits families hard. The chief executive of the National Housing Federation has described the policy as,

“an unfair, ill-planned disaster that is hurting our poorest families”.

It has resulted in an estimated 150,000 families with children being hit so far, forced out of their homes or pushed deeper into poverty and debt. We know from consistent research that children who are forced to move home, away from settled communities and their schooling, suffer health problems and have poorer educational outcomes. Meanwhile, families who stay put suffer an average loss of income of £14 a week, with much higher losses for many, impacting on their ability to feed and clothe their children.

The bedroom tax also has a disproportionate impact on disabled adults and children. Housing association studies have shown that a significant proportion of those affected are either disabled themselves or care for someone who is disabled. Many of them live in homes with adaptations, making it difficult and expensive to move. Others use their spare room for bulky medical equipment or facilities for visiting carers.

There are other adverse welfare implications of the bedroom tax. Recently, there was publicity for the very sad case of the Hollow family, whose 11 year-old son, Caleb, died in a car crash. After a year, the family were told that they had to move to a smaller property, causing added distress to Caleb’s siblings, who were still grieving for their lost brother and who now face the further disruption of a house move or a slide into poverty.

There is also the ongoing issue of the impact on foster carers. When we debated it in Committee, we welcomed the Government’s concession to allow one additional room in their home as long as they had registered as a foster carer or fostered a child within the previous 12 months. However, the reforms still apply to foster carers who have two or three bedrooms for fostered children. Foster carers could be deterred from providing foster care for more than one child at a time, so that more children would be more likely to be separated from their siblings. Given that there is already a shortage of foster carers in the UK, these reforms are likely to mean fewer new recruits coming forward and children’s well-being suffering as a result.

The application of these policies has seen local authorities and housing associations being put in an impossible position, trying to minimise the impact of badly designed policies on local people. As we know, there is often a mismatch in accommodation so that there are simply not enough smaller units even if tenants wish to move.

Meanwhile, under this Government, housing completions are at their lowest peacetime level since the 1920s. Local authorities find themselves trapped trying to implement an unworkable policy with little flexibility. Quite often, their only solution for tenants who are unable to downsize is to move them into the private rented sector, with all the additional housing benefit costs and the poorer standards that this entails.

The Government’s main response so far to the increasing number of tales of poverty and distress has been to set up the discretionary fund to support the most vulnerable families. However, alarmingly, the Local Government Association has reported a dramatic increase in the number of people requesting emergency financial help, with 81% of councils experiencing a sharp increase in the number of applications to the discretionary housing payments scheme, most of which are being made to stop people losing their homes. This demand is so great that councils report it is outstripping the money made available by the DWP, forcing them to make cuts to services in other areas. Anyway, these funds are, by their very nature, temporary, require regular reapplications and provide no ongoing stability for the families concerned. The Government have also issued guidance to local authorities on the application of the rules concerning children’s disability but again they have no obligation in law and the Minister will know that children’s charities remain concerned about the provisions and continue to challenge them.

We believe that our amendment gives local authorities the flexibility they need, based on their local knowledge and their local circumstances, to operate the bedroom tax rules to put the welfare and the interests of the child first. We believe that this would be welcomed by all those trying to implement this unwieldy and unjust policy. It would allow them to make an informed judgment of the options available to individual families in their local area to avoid some of the perverse outcomes that arise from the rules and to guarantee that the interests of the child are safeguarded. We believe that this is a simple but important amendment, in keeping with the spirit of the remainder of the Bill, and I urge noble Lords to support it.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords I support Amendment 57BC, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, to which I have added my name. She eloquently set out the case for the amendment and I will not repeat her comprehensive and cogent arguments. I have no doubt that the Government will regard the amendment as too wide-ranging. It provides for a determination setting aside the bedroom tax, potentially for a very large number of families. For a considerable number of families a move into new and smaller accommodation will be contrary to the interests and the welfare of the child. At the lower level of harms—if one can call them lower level—a house move may involve the children having to change school at the same time as they move home. Other children will move away from a grandparent or somebody else who looks after them when their parents are working. These sorts of changes could have very serious consequences for very sensitive children—not necessarily just disabled ones. At its most serious, a move may deprive a family of the basic space they need in order to continue managing a severely disabled child, or indeed an adult, in the family and therefore keeping the family intact. I want to focus on this to avoid duplication.

We know that families with a disabled child have been disproportionately disadvantaged by the bedroom tax, although the Government accept and have made changes to ensure that a disabled child should at least have a room of their own. That was certainly progress. The Minister always tells us that the discretionary housing payment is the answer to all possible problems. It will no doubt help many families with a short-term problem, if they are able to move into smaller accommodation—that is a big if—without serious consequences for a child or for the family as a whole, but where there is a short delay before the move can take place. I guess that would work pretty well. I accept that discretionary housing payments can be a helpful safety net for some people in the short term. That is how I think I see it working.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)]

My Lords, as one would expect, this has been an interesting debate with some impassioned and important contributions, which I welcome. Let me start by reminding the House of the fiscal environment that led to this measure’s introduction. In the final year of the previous Government, borrowing had risen to £150 billion. In cash terms, over the previous 10 years, expenditure on housing benefit had nearly doubled to £24 billion. Left unreformed, annual expenditure on housing benefit would have exceeded £26 billion per year by the end of this Parliament. Nearly four years on, the range of economic indicators are showing that our policies are working and have led to the number of workless households, the number of lone-parent workless households and the number of children in workless households all being the lowest since comparable records began in 1996.

I will not spend a huge amount of time responding to the policy issues raised because we have already spent a lot of time in this House dealing with the policy as a whole. I want to deal with the issues raised by the nature and form of this particular amendment.

The Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2006 are secondary legislation, which contain detailed provisions that set out how local authorities should administer housing benefit. It is very unusual to seek to amend secondary legislation through primary legislation in this way. The amendment itself is imprecise and ambiguous, unlike the rest of Regulation B13. For example, under proposed new paragraph (5A) it is unclear what “restriction to one bedroom” or the concept of,

“in the interests of the welfare of a child”,

means in this context. Because of this, the amendment may have unintended consequences that go far beyond those desired by the noble Baroness.

The effect of the amendment is potentially to allow local authorities to determine that the removal of the spare room subsidy does not apply where the household contains children, as it is not in the interests of their welfare. So this amendment is likely to add around £160 million a year to the housing benefit bill, reducing the savings from the policy to around £330 million a year. It would extend only to the social sector and so reintroduce the inequity in treatment between housing benefit claimants that we have sought to remove with the implementation of this change. Applying the spirit of the amendment to the local housing allowance to re-establish fairness is likely to more than double the cost of making this amendment to around £460 million a year. This amendment does not deliver the intended outcome. If accepted, we do not intend to amend it and it will be sent to the other place in its current defective state.

It may be helpful if I remind noble Lords that we have already taken account of the interests and welfare of children in developing this policy. In March, we amended the regulations to allow an additional bedroom for foster and kinship carers. We have also made £5 million of discretionary housing payment funding available specifically for foster carers who require further additional rooms to allow them to foster two or more children, including groups of siblings. The discretionary housing payment data for the first six months indicate that foster carers are applying for and receiving payments, as intended. In March, we also issued guidance to local authorities indicating that they should allow an additional bedroom for disabled children who would ordinarily be expected to share a room but are unable to do so because of their disability. This was put into a regulatory framework in October. We have provided £180 million of discretionary housing payment funding for this year, and £165 million for next year, to enable local authorities to support the most vulnerable families affected by the reforms. This funding is already meeting the need that the noble Baroness seeks to address through this amendment.

Perhaps I might pick up on two of the vital points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, on the costs and benefits for children who go into residential care as a result of the removal of the spare room subsidy. We have not looked at this specifically. The independent evaluation of the policy will look at the effects on families. We are not currently aware of any evidence to support the assumption that this would be an outcome of the policy.

Picking up the example that the noble Baroness raised about Mary Jane and focusing on the uncertainty that that family had with that poor girl, I am aware that some local authorities, following the introduction of the policy, have understandably taken a very cautious approach to awarding discretionary housing payments, as they assess the level of need in their area. I have instructed my officials to amend the guidance to local authorities to encourage them to make longer-term awards where the circumstances are unlikely to change. The revised guidance is being prepared and will be shared with the local authority associations in draft before being issued for the start of the financial year.

At this stage, we have not seen anything to suggest that this policy is having a detrimental impact on the welfare of children living in affected households. We are closely monitoring the effects of the policy and have commissioned an independent two-year evaluation which—among other things—will look at the effects on families. The interim findings are due to be published in spring this year.

I hope I have been clear. I have already reflected on the noble Baronesses’ amendment. I cannot undertake to reflect further between now and Third Reading. If the noble Baroness wishes to test the opinion of the House, she should do so now.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I very much thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I also thank the Minister. I welcome him to this Bill for, I think, the first time. Some of us are long veterans of this Bill. We have been debating it since last June. Our focus has, perhaps, been very different from the values and priorities that the Minister has been enunciating this evening. We have been very much focused on the child welfare issues and have seen those as a priority in the progress of the Bill. We have reached quite a lot of cross-party and cross-Chamber consensus on all of that.

Once again the Minister put great emphasis on the discretionary housing payment scheme. The fact is, in ways that were never foreseen when the original bedroom tax was introduced, it has already had to be increased and increased. This very much demonstrates that the policy, as originally planned and thought out, was not working and is still not working. It is making the evaluation of the costs very difficult. Indeed, the savings that were originally envisaged are now not being met. The whole policy is being turned on its head.

In all the calculations that I have heard the Minister cite, he does not take into account some of the extra costs. Noble Lords around the Chamber have given us examples, including the whole issue of managing evictions, debt, arrears, the extra costs to local authorities of going back to people to try to collect those debts and arrears, and the more ill defined, but nevertheless very much present, extra social problems that arise from some of these issues.

I am very pleased to hear that there will be an evaluation but, in the mean time, we are trying to deal with some of the problems that exist now. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Storey, who said that some of the discretionary fund was not always being used, that, for that very reason, the discretionary fund is not always the answer to those families. It is quite traumatic to go through that means-testing process. There is also an administrative on-cost for the local authorities that are trying to administer it. This is a murky area. It is not surprising that money in and money out are not always working effectively with the administration of that scheme.

Meanwhile, we have to respect the fact that the Tory-led Local Government Association is saying that there is a problem here and that other budgets are having to be raided to cope with the surge of applications. It is not me who is saying that; it is the Local Government Association. The chair of the Local Government Association’s finance panel says:

“This will have a significant impact on local government budgets, which are already stretched to breaking point by the deepest cuts in the public sector”.

Again, those are not my words; they come from the chair of the LGA finance committee.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fowler]

My Lords, I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that Ofcom is an extremely important body, and I hope that the Government accept that because, in the media area, a body such as Ofcom that is independent and seen to be independent and skilful is of the utmost importance. Certainly, as regards Schedule 3, I should like confirmation that it is not necessarily the case that the proposal means there will be a cut in Ofcom’s budget, although the budget can be modified either way.

I say that because it is difficult these days to debate Ofcom without discussing the role of the BBC Trust, which was set up by the previous Labour Government. The previous Secretary of State rightly changed his view, decided that the trust was an unnecessary body and that the logical way to run the BBC would be for there to be one chairman, a board and the executive, rather than the current extraordinary position, which is unique in the western world, whereby there is at one level the executive and then, in a separate building, the trust, headed by the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes—I am glad to say. However, the noble Lord is able to call himself the chairman of the BBC only as an honorary title. That is ridiculous. He should actually be the chairman of the BBC, and there should be one unitary authority. That is the logical way, and that is why 99.5 per cent of organisations in this country run themselves in that way.

The position that I reach from that is that the responsibilities that are now with the BBC Trust could easily be transferred to Ofcom. That is their logical place and everyone has argued for that. If that happened, one would find that the Lords Communications Committee—no longer under my chairmanship—would consider this matter further. If that is the position, there would clearly be adjustments to funding arrangements and the rest, as set out here. That does not necessarily mean that the funding would be reduced, but that the funding for Ofcom would have to increase.

I ask my noble friend Lady Rawlings—who, I am glad to see, is refreshing herself with water for her reply—whether she will confirm that that is the case. It would be a grave mistake for the Government to accept the argument put by people who have very vested interests that Ofcom is of no particular value and should be downgraded. Everything that has happened in the media world over the past six months confirms the view that the importance of Ofcom should be underlined. That is what I should like to hear from my noble friend now that she has refreshed herself.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Whitty for continuing to champion the organisations that stand out as protecting consumer interests, and for the remarkable good sense that he has shown again this evening in defending Ofcom's independence.

During the passage of the Bill there have been several attempts by Ministers to make reassuring noises about the importance of Ofcom and its central role in the future of media regulation. This may well be the case, but I share my noble friend's concern that the thrust of these changes, far from giving Ofcom greater responsibility, will limit its power to intervene in crucial issues such as media ownership and changes to public broadcasting. Power appears now to be increasingly centralised in the hands of the Secretary of State.

As is the case with many other organisations for which changes are sought in the Bill, one is left to wonder about the cost savings that might occur if the Minister's department is serious about taking on those functions. I concur with the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, about the proposed savings expected from Ofcom in this context. The Government have trumpeted the increased transparency that will occur, but it remains unclear how we will be able to scrutinise the major decisions that will be taken in the department on issues such as media control. When it comes to transparency, give me Ofcom any day.

My noble friend repeatedly emphasised, in previous debates and today, the special status of the economic regulators and the need to protect their independent function. Again, the Government took steps in the past to reassure the House on this matter. However, like other noble Lords today, I am left wondering why they felt that it was necessary to put the remaining changes to Ofcom in the Bill, and whether this still represents a shift in power and authority away from independent economic regulators and back to the centre. If this is the case, it is a backward step both for the consumer and for the wider public, as well as being a cause for celebration for would-be media barons. I remain unconvinced of the need to change Ofcom's role through the formal mechanism of the Bill, and very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s justification of why it is necessary.

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for tabling these amendments and for giving the Government the opportunity to state clearly to your Lordships' House how they intend to use the powers in Clauses 4 and 5 to reform Ofcom. The noble Lord asked why Ofcom is included in Schedules 4 and 5 to the Bill. This is so that we can bring forward several small changes to some of its duties that will make certain that it will be able to fulfil its statutory duties as efficiently and effectively as possible.

The communications landscape has changed significantly over the past decade, since Ofcom was established by the Office of Communications Act 2002. It is sensible and timely that we now use this opportunity to make some changes. At a time when the public sector must become more efficient, it is right to amend or remove some of Ofcom's duties, which will result in a small reduction in its cost to the public purse. I confirm that Ofcom is comfortable with the proposed changes to its duties. In answer to the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in our last debate on these amendments, I can reassure him that the overarching responsibilities of Ofcom will not change, and that its independence will remain a fundamental principle of regulating the communications sector.

I note, too, that the noble Lord is concerned that the Government may look to introducing additional changes in years to come using the Public Bodies Bill. I can reassure him that we have no plans to make any additional changes to Ofcom’s duties other than the nine small changes that we propose to bring forward by order after the Public Bodies Bill receives Royal Assent.