Water Bills

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

As I said, we are working very closely with water companies to ensure that bills do not increase unnecessarily. There are many challenges in the farming industry, and the Farming Minister is working across the piece to try to support farmers. For example, the farming budget was not reduced in the Budget this year.

On ability to pay bills, we know that all water companies have measures in place for people who struggle to pay for their water and waste services, and we encourage water companies to work with customers to apply for those whenever it is appropriate.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, this House debated the Water (Special Measures) Bill yesterday, and presumably the Government thought it might bring bills down for bill payers and taxpayers—yet it will not. Where is the justification for passing a Bill that makes it more difficult for people to pay bills?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I do not really understand the noble Baroness’s logic in thinking that it is going to increase bills. That piece of legislation is to ensure that water companies are better held to account and to drive behaviour change from what we have seen in recent years.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Report stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank all noble Lords for the constructive discussion on the important topic of ownership and management structures of water companies. I turn first to Amendment 50, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Remnant. I understand his concern about the aspect of the clause that allows for socialisation of shortfall recovery. We had some discussion around that, as he mentioned. However, I reassure him again that this element is necessary for the shortfall recovery power to function effectively and safeguard the interests of taxpayers and water customers.

We do not expect to have to use this power—the noble Lord mentioned that we had talked about this—and I stress that it would be utilised only if it were not possible to recover all the funding provided by Government over the course of a special administration; that is, in the event of a shortfall. It is only at that point that Ministers would decide whether to exercise the shortfall recovery power. Water sector stakeholders, including the Consumer Council for Water, would be consulted about any decision to exercise the power. It is therefore not entered into lightly.

All water customers benefit from the use of a special administration regime, as it ensures that services continue in the event that a water company fails. This power already exists within special administration regime frameworks for other essential service sectors, such as energy, where there is a well-established principle of socialising these costs across the sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Remnant, asked specifically about why we think the powers are needed, so I will provide an example. There may be an occasion where government funding, provided during a special administration regime, contributes towards water sector infrastructure—such as a reservoir—that goes on to benefit several different water companies. In other cases, a particularly small water company, with a limited number of customers, may enter special administration. In this scenario, it is vital that a decision can be made about recovering a shortfall from more than one company, to ensure fair allocation of costs and to prevent customers of a single, small company facing unmanageably huge bill increases.

In all scenarios, a failure to deal with a shortfall fairly, or to prevent impacts unduly falling on a single company, risks increasing the cost of capital for the whole sector. This is because investors will price in the risks of excessive shortfall costs falling on a single company. The ability to recover a shortfall from multiple companies is therefore necessary both to ensure that it is possible to recover government funding in the event of a shortfall and to safeguard the sector from any wider cost impacts. I reiterate that we see it as very unlikely that this will ever happen. For this reason, the Government will not accept the amendment.

I turn next to Amendment 53 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. While I thank her for her engagement on this clause, the Government must reject this amendment because it would jeopardise the main purpose of the water special administration regime, which is to ensure the continuation of water and sewerage functions in the event of a water company insolvency or failure.

The role of the special administrator, once appointed, does not include a power to cancel debt, so does not serve to bail out water company creditors or shareholders. When a water company exits from special administration, via either a rescue or a transfer, the special administrator determines the level of repayment to creditors in accordance with the statutory order of priority. The level of repayment that creditors and shareholders may expect will be in accordance with the order of repayment clearly set out in statute. Any power to cancel debts outside of a restructuring plan agreed as part of a special administration, or a scheme where there is built-in court supervision, would be a material departure from long-established insolvency principles of fairness and treating creditors equally according to their rights. I hope that the noble Baroness understands why the Government must therefore reject this amendment.

I will turn next to Amendment 54, also tabled by the noble Baroness, and Amendment 56 tabled by my noble friend Lord Sikka. He mentioned dividends. I assure him that Ofwat is able to stop the payment of dividends if they would risk the company’s financial resilience, and can take enforcement action against water companies that do not link dividend payments to performance. I just wanted to make that point clear.

Amendments 54 and 56 are already covered by the existing legal framework for insolvency and special administration regimes. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, specifically asked why a SAR can be used in only financial circumstances. However, that is not the case. A water company can already be placed in special administration on performance grounds where it is in such serious breach of its principal statutory duties, or an enforcement order, that it is inappropriate for the company to retain its licence. Both the amendments would limit the powers of the Secretary of State and Ofwat by forcing their hand to take specific action, thereby limiting their ability to respond appropriately to individual situations. As part of an application to the court for a special administration on performance grounds, the Secretary of State and Ofwat must consider all aspects of a company’s performance and enforcement record, including its record of criminal convictions. Under the current framework, a company must take actions to address performance issues, including those involved with poor performance. Any failure to do so would form part of any assessment by the Secretary of State, or Ofwat, of the appropriateness of that special administration in the first place. Special administration must be a last resort, and proportional and appropriate to the circumstances. An automatic threshold for special administration, such as outlined in these amendments, would limit the ability of the Government or regulators to act. It would also likely undermine the confidence of actual and potential investors, and bring instability to the wider sector.

The Government are already taking action to strengthen the regulatory system through the recently launched independent commission into the water sector and its regulation. The regulators’ roles and responsibilities, including on enforcement, will be reviewed as part of this. We expect that recommendations from this review will form the basis of future legislation. The rigid approach in these amendments would prevent the Secretary of State from exercising their powers to respond to the details of individual cases. For this reason, the Government will not accept these amendments. However, I hope that noble Lords are reassured by my explanation.

Regarding Amendment 59 tabled by the noble Lady, Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb, I have already spoken at length about the costs of nationalising the water sector. It would require a fair price to be paid to shareholders and debt holders. This would come to over £90 billion. I know that noble Lords have disputed this figure, but it is based on Ofwat’s regulatory capital value figures for 2024. I have also spoken about the benefits—or lack thereof—of nationalisation.

Research commissioned by the Consumer Council for Water, an independent organisation that represents customer interests, found that a substantial change to the industry and company ownership would not address the main problems experienced. We also see a variety of ownership models in the UK and internationally, with clear mixed performance. For these reasons, the Government have been clear that nationalisation is not on the table.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

As the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, said, it is okay for the railways but not for water. If it were within the remit, at least we could get some accurate figures. At the moment we do not have accurate figures. Also, a recent poll said that 82% of the general public would like water out of private hands and in public ownership again. That means that this Government are going against the grain.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Committee stage
Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Before the Minister sits down, I had better clarify: I want another Labour Government only if I cannot have a Green Government. On the issue about having monopolies where market forces do not operate, can she see that there are inherent problems in having monopolies on something such as water—or any public service that we all need?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I completely get the noble Baroness’s point. I would hope that, when we do the review, we look completely across all the issues to do with a water company, including the way it behaves because of the way it is set up, and that that should be part of any consideration. By the time we have reported, I am sure the noble Baroness will be very happy to have another Labour Government.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their amendments and for a very interesting discussion. Clearly, it is very passionately felt as well. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for introducing her Amendment 37. I would also like to discuss Amendment 104 tabled by the noble Lord Gascoigne, because they are both about nature-based solutions.

As I mentioned on the previous group, the Government agree that nature-based solutions are an important tool for tackling the root causes of sewage pollution and addressing flood risk, while delivering wide ecological benefits. In line with this, I am pleased that Ofwat has proposed an allowance of over £2 billion for investments in nature-based solutions in PR24. I was pleased that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, refers to catchments, because catchment and nature-based solutions are part of that £2 billion investment, and £1.6 billion is looking to reduce storm overflow spills through those solutions.

Ofwat has made it clear in its guidance for PR24 that it expects water companies to adopt more nature-based solutions. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, mentioned reed beds, and it is important to say that the further funding includes money for reed beds and wetlands for nutrient removal. The Government are also supporting water companies with trialling different nature-based solutions. As I mentioned, this is obviously subject to the final determinations in December, but we hope to move forward in these areas.

At the same time, we need to recognise that nature-based solutions may not always be the most appropriate or effective means of improving water quality or flood risk. We need to ensure that water companies and Ofwat have sufficient flexibility to develop the right solution to deliver the best outcomes for customers and the environment. In a similar vein, although nature-based solutions may feature in pollution incident reduction plans, it is important to recognise that these may not be the most effective or available response to pollution incidents in every circumstance.

Having said that, we will not support the amendments, but I reassure the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we take this seriously. I am happy to have further discussions on this particular amendment, if that is helpful.

I turn to Amendment 55, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington-Mandeville. It is important to draw our attention to the impact of sewage pollution in our national parks. The Government agree that our national parks—Lake Windermere in the Lake District and the Broads have had particular attention regarding this matter—are a vital part of our environmental heritage, and everyone agrees that they must be protected better. For this reason, the Government will seek to use the powers in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act to ensure that relevant authorities, including water companies, deliver better outcomes in protected landscapes.

I reassure noble Lords that existing plans are in place to protect high-priority sites from sewage pollution, including the Storm Overflows Discharge Reduction Plan. As part of that reduction plan, we expect water companies to tackle overflows discharging to high-priority sites by 2035. These sites include designated bathing waters, SSSIs, special areas of conservation and chalk streams. However, completely eradicating sewage discharges is not possible without a costly redesign of the whole sewerage system.

Similar issues may arise in relation to the proposed requirement for all water bodies in national parks to achieve “high” ecological status. Under the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England and Wales) Regulations, most surface water bodies have an objective to reach “good” ecological status, except where it is technically infeasible or disproportionately costly. I stress that “good” ecological status is a very high standard to achieve, and represents a thriving aquatic environment with only minor disturbance from natural conditions. In this way, it supports a diverse group of aquatic invertebrates, fish, mammals and birds.

“High” ecological status equates to water almost entirely undisturbed from its natural conditions, with almost no impact from human activity. Requiring this very high status would have wide-ranging impacts on any future planning developments and human interaction with national parks—that would include farming and fishing. The requirement would place achieving this demanding objective on only water companies, regardless of the pressures and sectors that are actually impacting on water bodies within the protected landscapes. It would also not allow for the consideration of costs, which would ultimately be borne by water bill payers, and any technical feasibility around this.

It is clearly important to reduce phosphorus levels— I have seen the damage that phosphorus can cause in the lakes near where I live. A reduction of phosphorus levels by 90% by 2028 goes significantly beyond the Environment Act target to reduce phosphorus loading by 80% by 2038—that is assuming that the baseline is at 2020 levels. This would require an extremely expensive and immediate increase to the number of phosphorus improvement schemes planned in the price review of 2024. We are concerned that that is a big jump, with a big extra investment that would immediately be passed on to bill payers. We do not want to risk the delivery of any wider environmental improvements through the price review of 2024.

Amendment 74 was tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. I confirm that the Government are absolutely committed to the protection and restoration of our cherished chalk streams. We recognise that these unique water bodies are not just vital ecosystems but a symbol of our national heritage: we in this country have by far the majority of chalk streams. This requirement would have significant implications for existing legal frameworks’ operational delivery, and would not necessarily result in environmental improvement for chalk streams. As discussed in relation to Amendment 55, requiring “high” ecological status would have the wide-ranging impacts that I mentioned.

The levelling-up Act brought in some protections for chalk streams. The independent water commission on the water sector regulatory system, already announced by the Secretary of State, is the appropriate vehicle for considering broader reforms, including to the current water system and overarching targets for the water sector. In the previous group we talked about better use of water and grey water. If we move forward with that through our review, that will reduce abstraction, which will help to support chalk streams better.

I hope the noble Earl therefore understands why the Government will not accept his amendment. However, he requested a meeting to discuss Blue Flag status as a possible way forward, and I am more than happy to offer him one.

Amendment 90 was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning. I am grateful to her for this amendment. We are clear that water companies must improve on their delivery of water resources management plans. The independent commission will help to transform how our water system works and will inform further legislation. It would be more appropriate at the moment to consider how we make improvements to the water resources management planning process as part of the independent commission. I note that there are already requirements for the review process in Section 37A of the Water Industry Act 1991. Water companies must also report to the Secretary of State on their reviews annually. Defra works closely with the EA and Ofwat to review water companies’ delivery of their plans, and the EA recently published a summary of assessments of water company delivery and the actions that they must take to deliver their plans.

We are concerned that, in practice, a duty on water companies to deliver all measures simply would not work. Many measures, such as new reservoirs, need further permissions, for example, before they can proceed, and a water company cannot guarantee that it will get those permissions. That is why we will not support that particular amendment. I thank noble Lords again for this interesting and helpful debate.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. I do not think anyone in the Committee doubts her sincerity or her concern for nature—that is a given. I am afraid it is the Government I do not trust. I did not trust the last Government and I do not trust this one either—it must be something in my nature.

I supported two other amendments: Amendment 74 in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and Amendment 104 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Gascoigne and Lord Roborough. Chalk streams, for example, are incredibly important; they are so rare. We have the most in the world and we trash them. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, goes much further than my modest amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, has never called anything I have ever done modest, so I look forward to his signing this same amendment on Report to show that he is sincere.

The noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, talked about local engagement. Just this week, I hosted a group of 30 or 40 people from the Bengali community who are working on recovering mangrove forests in Sundarbans. They do it because they care about the local; they are losing culture, opportunities and so on. I really see that local activity is incredibly important, but the Government have to make that easy. This is the thing about the nature recovery schemes. They are obviously not the only way; they can be extremely effective, and sometimes quite cheap as well. It definitely engages the local community. I was up at Lake Windermere recently, and the local support there for cleaning up the lake was quite astonishingly broad.

Waste: Incineration

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to implement the Climate Change Committee’s recommendation to pause permission for new incineration plants to allow for a review of the treatment of residual waste.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to transitioning to a circular economy. We are considering the role of energy from waste in the context of circularity, economic growth and reaching net zero. As part of this, we are giving consideration to the Climate Change Committee’s recommendation. This year, Defra will publish an analysis of energy-from-waste capacity in England to inform future policy. We continue work to implement packaging reforms, drive up recycling rates and take material out of incineration.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister, but I am deeply dissatisfied. This Government, in whom I had a lot of trust, have made the deeply irresponsible decision to allow the Portland incinerator to go ahead. I declare an interest as a resident of Dorset, although nowhere near Portland. Incineration and energy from waste is not a practical way forward; it is very damaging both in terms of public health and environmentally. I beg the Minister to speak to her department and suggest getting better advice on energy?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, it does say in the Companion that you should not thank a noble Member for their Question—so, on this occasion, I will not. The environmental permitting regulations prevent the incineration of separately collected paper, metal, glass or plastic waste, unless it has gone through some sort of treatment process first. Following that treatment, incineration is seen to be the best environmental outcome. We know that the recycling rate is too low, that we burn too much waste and that, for too long, recycling rates in England have plateaued. The way forward is to look at the whole big picture and our circular economy ambitions are designed to address this.

Water Companies: Financial Resilience

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Tuesday 23rd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I too welcome the noble Baroness to her new post; I am sure she will be superb. How many water companies are currently financially resilient?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her welcome. I am sure she has seen the environmental performance assessment that came out today. It reports that most companies continue to underperform and there continue to be a lot of concerns in this area. On the specific question she asked, I will write to her with the proper information so I know I am accurate.