Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I was truncated once again shortly before we finished on Monday. I wanted to add just a few words to the powerful speeches that were made on this amendment—none more powerful than that of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, who apologises for being unable to be here because he is chairing another committee. The points that he made on entitlement to benefit were central. If one is going to get into a situation where capping prevents people getting what Parliament has passed as being their entitlement, there is something that is fundamentally wrong. I suspect that the Minister will have heard the points that have been made. A colleague whom I shall not name suggested that I give the Government hell; I am not going to do that because I am sure that the Government are in listening mode and will take on board the points that have been made. They are central to arguments about social security and I hope that the Minister will respond in those terms.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, we are talking still about benefit caps. We left the debate on Monday, I think, accepting that families hit the cap, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, explained so straightforwardly for us, through the interplay of both high rents and large families, a problem particularly in London and the south-east, with 70 per cent of those affected in social housing. Amendments tabled during our previous day’s debate sought, first, a more appropriate comparator by excluding child benefit in particular from benefit cap calculations—this was an argument by my noble friend Lady Lister—so that we could compare like with like and not apples with oranges. A second group of amendments suggested, wisely, a transitional period of grace before the cap was imposed. This is a theme to which I think we will all want to return, because we need a period of grace for quite a lot of the measures being introduced in order for them to settle down before the whole weight of penalties comes into play. We ran a similar amendment on housing benefit earlier. A third group of amendments sought to exclude subgroups from the caps—for example, those in supported housing, carers and kinship carers.

I want to focus on two aspects of all the debates that we have had so far, plus on the issue of carers, which was raised so effectively by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and issues of housing benefit raised by the noble Lord, Lord Best. I support the thrust of all the amendments. There was one golden rule of public finance that I learnt from my time in the department: amendments abating or removing cuts always cost more than the cuts originally saved, even if the situation is not restored to the pre-existing status quo. That may be the case here again.

I wish to raise some wider questions on Amendment 99A tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. She argued powerfully that just as PIP will remain outside of UC and the cap, so, equally, should carer’s benefit not be included in the cap, because they mirror each other, as they do in real life. The financial pressures, the fatigue and exhaustion, the using-up of savings and the social isolation apply just as much to many carers as they do to so many disabled people. We know that the Minister is sympathetic to carers, as is the whole House. So far, however, we do not yet know how many carers face a reduced earnings disregard. We do not know how many carers will lose carers allowance, because of the possible uneven mapping of the existing DLA passported benefit to the new PIP. We also do not know whether CA will come within the cap.

Given that the Bill is going through Committee stage here I feel that we are entitled to require the Minister to give us this information before we start Report stage and that we should not have to wait until we get to the clauses specifically about carers. If a single carer—it could be no carers, or it could be 100,000 carers—loses their entitlement to a passported benefit they will come into the framework of in-work conditionality which we have to deal with before we get to the carers clauses, at which point the Minister tells us he will be able to give us the information we want. We cannot do it that way round. It is not fair to the carers and it is not fair to Committee Members, who have been trying to do our best to get from the Minister—I am sure that he wants to be helpful on this—this information on the situation in which carers will find themselves. We must know everything about this situation before Report; otherwise some of us will be demanding that we go back into Committee, in the middle of Report stage, in order to take on board information that should have been available to inform earlier debates. It is not a proposal I would wish to argue. It is annoying for everybody concerned, but I feel quite strongly that it is not reasonable to ask us to proceed in this way.

The second area is housing benefit. Again, I strongly support the amendments moved so powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Best. However, perhaps I may widen the point to remind the Minister of where we are so far and what we so far know, and then to ask him what advice he would give to a housing association such as mine—I declare an interest as chair of Broadland Housing Association. First, there is under-occupying. So far we have learnt that many of our poorest tenants would be required to move to smaller accommodation—except that we do not have it; it does not exist and it will not be built in the next few years. So the tenants will stay put and be fined on average about £20 a week. They have no savings, so they will run up arrears. However, we will be asked to avoid evicting them on grounds of decency as well as cost savings. Although such tenants would not be intentionally homeless through arrears generated by benefit cuts—as the Minister has helpfully agreed on the record—we would in any event have to rehouse them, probably in the house next door, if we evicted them. We will get substantial arrears from—although not pensioners—perhaps one-fifth of our tenants. I do not know.

We will perhaps also be faced, as we found from the discussion last week, with some tenants who are up against the housing benefit or UC cap. They too will face arrears, and again we will be expected as social landlords to avoid evicting them for what is not their fault. Again, arrears for us will mount.

We may also face cuts in housing benefit for those with supported housing in its various forms, although obviously this is a much smaller group. Again their arrears may mount, and again those will pass to the housing association.

Finally—an issue which we have not yet debated—we will certainly face substantial arrears in the move to direct payments to tenants rather than to the landlord.

Each of these four changes in housing benefit from DWP will plunge social housing landlords into mounting arrears. What is my housing association to do? We cannot raise rents to compensate for those arrears because we are at our fixed-target rent and DCLG does not allow us to go above it. We cannot get extra revenues from HCA or DCLG—indeed, they have cut our capital revenues by some 60 per cent. Housing associations could well find their accounts qualified, at which point the banks may threaten to reprice their capital loans because of infringement of a covenant, at which point our building programme falls.

I suppose that we could cut staff but the Tenant Services Authority within the HCA requires us to improve services. A 95 per cent satisfaction rate on any of the criteria it produces is required, which means that there must be staff on the ground, and quite rightly so. The driving-up of standards equals staff, which means that you cannot cut in that field either.

Put those four cuts together and they could send many housing associations into the red. Any one or two of these proposed benefit changes would be difficult to manage, but to face all four would be unbelievably difficult. I warn the Minister that he could be jeopardising the financial stability of a swathe of housing associations across the country. How then will the Prime Minister’s newly voiced concern for affordable housing be met? Given that 95 per cent of all housing stock that will exist in 10 years’ time has already been built, we cannot adjust the stock to meet what I believe is very wrong-headed, and in some places downright indecent, changes to HB. Some of us feel very strongly about this and it would seriously jeopardise our support for UC. DWP’s cuts in housing benefit will be offloaded to housing associations as arrears.

Goodness knows that local authorities are strapped for cash with 30 per cent cuts, but at least they have other financial resources. Housing associations do not. I repeat to the Minister that his savings will be our debt. DWP and DCLG have to get their act together. As I suggested at Second Reading, not entirely jocularly, if we could persuade DCLG to give up its batty scheme of localising council tax benefit with all the savings that accompany it and trade it for protecting the housing benefit, which would finance the homes we need and keep people in the homes that they want, UC would be welcomed widely across the country. I warn the Minister to take this issue very seriously. It will be very difficult for those in the field of social housing to cope when his cuts become our arrears with no capacity to meet them.

[Baroness Meacher]

I support Amendment 99A, which would exempt from the benefit cap, as others have mentioned, claimants with entitlement to carer’s allowance or additional allowances within universal credit for claimants with regular and substantial caring responsibilities. I am sure that this amendment was moved extremely ably by my noble friend Lady Hollins.

Perhaps I may make a couple of comments about the cap more generally. As Cross-Benchers, we do not normally refer to any political activities that we might have undertaken even in the distant past. Over a quarter of a century, however, I have spent rather a lot of time knocking on doors. One incredibly powerful recollection that I have is that the perception of the so-called scrounger was always the biggest single issue on the doorstep, even bigger than immigration. We cannot get away from the fact that low-income earners bitterly resent neighbours who they regard as being on benefits and, apparently, seeming to do rather better than they themselves. It is important that low-income earners feel that they are benefiting from going to work, which was the objective of the tax credit system. I strongly support the principle of that, albeit that there were a few problems with complexity.

As for the political motivation behind the benefits cap, I understand that people must have that incentive to work and that those in work should not resent those who are out of work. I have concerns, however, which I believe others have expressed, about the cap as a mechanism for achieving that sense of fairness. My understanding is that the design of the universal benefit should achieve this objective if only, as others have said, the council tax benefit were incorporated within it—at least except for a small number of very large families and some people living in very high cost areas.

I suggest to the Minister that the Government give some thought to finding a formulation in the legislation to achieve their fairness objective as between claimants and low-paid earners without resort to the notion of the cap. I know that the Secretary of State is extremely committed to this cap because it is a beautifully simple little message about being tough on claimants, if one is really honest about it. However, the Secretary of State should think carefully about whether this is acceptable within the traditions of democracy in this country. The aim, of course, would be to avoid relinquishing parliamentary scrutiny of the Executive. That is important because the levels and structure of benefits should not be open to change by the Executive without reference to Parliament. I understand that that is possible with the Bill as drafted. I know that the Minister will correct me if I am wrong but that is my understanding.

As regards this amendment, if the Government are determined to have the benefit—and I still hope that they are not—one group of claimants who clearly should be exempt are carers. About 200,000 children in the UK are being raised by grandparents, older siblings or other family members and friends. These carers step in to bring up a child or children as a result of very difficult family circumstances which often involve drug or alcohol misuse, abuse or neglect, death or serious illness, domestic violence or imprisonment. These carers are saving the taxpayer very large sums. These households are often large, simply because they have children of their own and then bring in others, perhaps five or more; so they will be disproportionately affected by the cap. I am sure that others have already mentioned this issue but I hope that the Minister will address it directly.

The idea of imposing a cap or some form of benefit control on large families is presumably to discourage parents from having more children than they can readily cope with, but that argument does not apply at all to carers who take on other people’s children. I do not know what the Minister feels about that point. Is that actually the main incentive behind the cap in relation to these households? Have I misunderstood? I would welcome his clarification. I know that he will want to support carers and hope that he is in a position to hold out some hope of concession on this issue. I hope that, at the very least, he will take this matter away for consideration.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, these amendments seek to provide exemptions on the face of the Bill from the application of the benefit cap for a wide range of different groups. I would like to start by repeating what I said on Monday. We have always been clear that we will look at ways of easing the transition for families and providing assistance in hard cases. We are very aware of concerns about the impact of the cap in specific scenarios. We have always said that we will take account of the sort of issues raised in this debate when preparing the regulations next year. The clause has been drafted to give us powers to set a cap that achieves its purpose in the fairest way possible.

Let me take this early opportunity to assure the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that I have considered the requirements of the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights in respect of this policy. I am content that the way in which we will implement these clauses will meet those requirements.

Let me also clarify early on the point about behavioural change and the logic of applying the cap to people with reduced conditionality—a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Our policy aim is to achieve a range of positive effects through changing attitudes and expectations. Clearly, we intend in particular to improve work incentives and reinforce the expectation that people of working age should work. However, it is perfectly reasonable to encourage and help people towards employment even if they are not currently expected to work.

I said on Monday that our original estimate was that only about 10 per cent of the households that might be capped would be subject to full conditionality, through the JSA regime. However, it is wrong to say that the remainder will have no work-related requirements. A significant proportion will be people subject to work-focused interviews or work preparation and who will be building towards work. I said on Monday that I would provide the Committee with a breakdown of the caseload of households which might be capped. I also said that we are in the process of updating our figures. These indicate that a higher proportion, about a third, will be subject to full conditionality. I will provide the full set of figures as soon as they become available.

The key point is that if we are to tackle the negative effects of the current system then it makes no sense to exempt people from the cap simply because they are not currently subject to full work-related conditionality. That would not change attitudes and would be very likely to further entrench the problems of worklessness and dependency that we are trying to address. We have therefore been very careful in providing exemptions and deliberately kept the list short.

We have always said that we will exempt households that are entitled to working tax credit and that there will be an exemption for working households on universal credit. I have already explained that I am not yet in a position to provide details of this, but I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that we are very conscious of the issue of cliff edges and the need to consider the impact of thresholds on households whose earnings fall.

We have always said that we will exempt war widows and widowers and that we will exempt households with someone in receipt of DLA or constant attendance allowance completely from the effects of the cap. I can confirm that this exemption will also extend to those in receipt of attendance allowance and PIP when it is introduced.

I am aware of representations already made that recipients of industrial injuries disablement benefit should be exempt from the cap in the same way as recipients of DLA. However, I do not think that these groups are in exactly the same position. DLA is paid to people to help with the extra costs arising from their disability. Other than through constant attendance allowance, industrial injuries disablement benefits do not reflect whether the recipient’s disability or illness necessarily brings extra financial costs.

We will be exempting people who are in receipt of constant attendance allowance because it serves the same purpose as DLA, but that does not apply to other industrial injuries payments.

I welcome the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on the important issue of carers. The DLA exemption will mean that the cap does not affect a carer in a case where, as she said, the person being cared for is a partner or dependent child. Households where a member receives carer’s allowance but no members receive DLA or PIP will however not be exempt. In cases where the recipient of DLA is not deemed to be in the same household as the recipient of carer’s allowance both will be looked at separately and for benefit cap purposes their individual entitlements will be assessed independently. We have also said that we will look at ways to ease the transition for families and provide assistance in hard cases.

On the passport, as I said, I will seek to set out our intention for the passporting arrangements for PIP to carer’s allowance before the start of Report stage. I hope that that is adequate assurance for the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

No, my Lords. The Minister made that clear at the last sitting, but unless we know the actual numbers, as opposed to the structure, we will not know how many carers currently enjoying carer’s allowance, if I may use that word, will lose it and, as a result, become subject to full in-work conditionality—a clause in the Bill that we have to deal with before we get to carer’s benefits.

[Lord Freud]

By the time that I am able to set out these arrangements Committee Members will have a tight band in which to make a judgment. Although it will not be precise I hope that there will be a reasonable degree of precision to enable Members to reach key judgments.

As I confirmed on Monday, support for childcare—

[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords; that is an excellent question in this sense. I have made clear that we are looking at transitional arrangements, and I will look at precisely this issue of the timing with PIP in the light of those transitional arrangements as people move through. Clearly I have already committed to looking at the three months and the six months, so I have something of a three-handed chess operation to get through, but I hope to come back with the pieces in the right place—or, rather, although the pieces might be in position, they might not be in the right place as far as the noble Baroness is concerned. It will at least be a clear understanding of the position. I absolutely bear in mind the point that she has made.

The noble Baroness’s other question was on school meals. I am happy to commit that, however we restructure the provision of the passported benefit of school meals, it will remain outside the cap in the same way as childcare.

With regard to the kinship care amendment, we have already discussed and recognised in Committee the valuable role that kinship carers fulfil. I made a personal commitment, supported by the Secretary of State, to look at a range of issues affecting this group. I have already had a number of meetings with organisations that support kinship carers to help me better understand their priorities. These carers are able to receive support for the children in their care through the benefit system as, unlike approved foster carers, they have access to child benefit and child tax credit on the same basis as parents. Any payments they receive from the local authority will be disregarded. This parity of treatment with parents will be continued with the introduction of universal credit.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

That is very helpful and clear, but the point being made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and others was that kinship carers very often take on children additional to those already in their family. Therefore, we are much more likely to see fairly large households with possibly five or six children and, as a result, those families could immediately be up against the benefit cap. How would the noble Lord suggest that is going to be addressed?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I accept the importance of this issue. There are a lot of angles to it, but I fully accept its importance and the argument that discouraging kinship carers could actually have a perverse effect, certainly in terms of cost.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised the issue of children at risk. We as a Government take our responsibilities to vulnerable children and vulnerable parents very seriously. It is clear that such families are likely to have multiple problems that may not be solved by benefit payments alone. The noble Baroness is concerned that the benefit cap will force such households to be constantly on the move, which will make it harder for local authorities and support services to keep track of them. We recognise that a more co-ordinated cross-government response is needed, and so last December the Prime Minister announced a new national campaign to try to turn around the lives of the most troubled families in England—there are around 120,000 of them—by the end of this Parliament. Local areas are being encouraged to develop a new approach to supporting these families. It involves redesigning services so that each of the most troubled families is supported by a single key worker who helps them turn their lives around and engage successfully with education and employment. I can assure noble Lords that my officials will work closely with other departments to support the Prime Minister’s plan for these vulnerable families and ensure that those who may be subject to the cap will be given all the help and information available.

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[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords. Empson wrote a book called Seven Types of Ambiguity and my noble friend has cited two of them. I can clear up this particular dual ambiguity: the word “transition” here applies both to the running-in of the system and to the timing of how it will affect particular people when the system is fully run in.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Some of the Minister’s common phrases are “soon” and “very soon” and we are beginning to decode them. Another one is about the possibility of discretionary housing allowance being extended to plug all possible gaps in the system, and we have had some discussion on that. It would be very helpful if he could circulate a paper to us on all the areas where he has assured us that there are going to be transitional arrangements so that we can see what they will look like.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I do not think that I am in a position to do that. I think that I will have to leave it to Hansard to pick up where I have applied the phrase “transitional arrangement”.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Forgive me, the question was not how many times the noble Lord has used the phrase but what it means in practice. Is there a three-year run-in? What are we talking about here?

[Lord Freud]

All I am able to say at this moment is that there will be transitional arrangements and help for hard cases.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I think that we understand that. However, does the Minister recognise the dilemma with which the Committee is faced? We have a broad framework which the Minister says gives the opportunity of reducing the cap, but we have none of the detail which is absolutely crucial to understanding how it will work and who it will impact. Without providing that he is facing the Committee with an impossible dilemma. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, is right and these clauses are irredeemable.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, it also means that the noble Lord will face a lot of amendments on Report, which he would not need to face, calling for breathing spaces or a transitional period of one year for people who suddenly lose their jobs or are suddenly exposed, at 27 or 28, to living in a single room, and so on. If he were able to give some clarity about what he proposes, he could wipe out possibly a dozen amendments.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I have been set a challenge and a reward. It would be lovely to collect on that, but I cannot make any further assurances.

I shall continue to speak to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best. Apart from the transitional arrangements that I have talked about, the underlying position is to ensure that people understand that they have to take responsibility for the decisions that they make in their lives in the light of what they can afford, and they cannot always look forward to the state stepping in to make good any financial shortfall.

I shall continue on to the more technical areas raised by the noble Lord, Lord Best, on temporary accommodation and supported and sheltered housing. The amendments provide an exemption for households to which local authorities owe a duty because they are homeless, or threatened with homelessness, and for those living in supported or sheltered accommodation. As I said on Monday, discretionary housing payments will not be included as part of the cap, but in wider terms it is too early to say how we shall treat those cases for housing cost purposes in 2013 and beyond. We are exploring options for the treatment of housing benefit for people living in temporary accommodation within universal credit and the overall benefit cap.

Noble Lords may be aware that we recently consulted on high-level proposals to change the method by which help with rent is calculated for those who live in certain supported housing in the social and voluntary sector. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, indicated, there is a series of issues here. We are working very closely with local authorities, housing associations and other government departments, including the devolved Administrations, on these very issues. Our considerations will, obviously, include possible interactions with the benefit cap.

Finally, Amendment 99C, in the name of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, would place a requirement on the face of the Bill for exemptions for a range of groups. These include groups that we will provide exemptions for through regulations, and others that we have already discussed during the course of our debates today. The amendment also includes an exemption for lone parents with a child under five. I have made it clear that the cap is intended to act as an incentive to work. I acknowledge that we currently do not require lone parents with children under seven to work, although we are seeking to reduce this to five, but that does not mean that we do not want to encourage them to find employment Indeed that is the very reason why we provide extra support through work-focused interviews.

Each of these amendments would undermine the fundamental principles underpinning the cap—that ultimately there has to be a limit to the amount of benefit that a household can receive and that work should always pay. I have listened carefully to the measured and detailed arguments put forward today and will take them into account when deciding on the final design of the cap. In the mean time, I urge the noble Lords and the right reverend Prelate not to press their amendments.

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[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—of wherever he is of—would comment, if he were here, but he spelt out a very powerful argument of principle about entitlement. I have not heard the noble Lord address that argument and, in his absence, I would be very grateful if he could do so.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Basically, the noble Lord is constructing universal credit based on meeting several different objectives and many of us support this very strongly. However, he then artificially reduces the amount that some people will get under the very structure he has set out to meet the objectives he has outlined. It is that inconsistency of a deliberate cut to an entitlement, constructed by himself through universal credit, that we find unacceptable—so far it has not been explained to us—particularly when some of the consequences may cost us more.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the best piece of information I can provide the Committee on that question is that it is the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope. I think I am reduced to going back to the basic principle that there should be a limit and we have set that limit at the equivalent of £35,000. We are going round in circles slightly.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are going round in circles. Noble Lords seem not to like this, although my understanding is that, as a principle, the Opposition approve of the benefit cap. There is a general level of support for it. I want to lay out the ground that working people with earnings of less than £35,000 already face these kinds of choices with regard to housing. Noble Lords seem to be arguing that people who are not working should be in a better position than those in work by protecting them from having to make this kind of choice. Bluntly, it was that kind of approach that has created or has been partially the cause of the high level of dependency that we have in this country.

I have, bluntly, said all that I can in this area. We can go round and round, but I am not in a position to offer very much more in the way of elaboration.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I just want to pick up on my noble friend Lady Lister's point. We know that most lone parents come out of a relationship: very often out of a marriage. These are not people who are regarded by others on the estate as shirkers who need to be driven—that sort of mentality. We could have a situation where, before they separated, the total household earned income was perhaps over £30,000 and there was some housing benefit because it was a three-bedroom property in an inner city area at a fairly high cost. He then leaves and she is left with three small children under the age of five in their existing home, which is rented. As a result, they are facing the benefit cap. How on earth do we think that any of these proposals under universal credit or the benefit cap could or should alter that behaviour, the judgments that they have to make and the possibilities open to them? All it can do is turf them out and send them up to Middlesbrough, as far as I can see.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I suspect that we have taken this as far as we can today, but I am sure that we will return to it on Report—perhaps we should already be thinking of booking an extra couple of days for that. I have a technical question for the Minister. As I understand it, before we get to universal credit, the variety of benefits that people have will be looked at. That will go into the calculation on one side. We will compare that with the earnings comparator and the difference will be withdrawn by way of reduction of housing benefit. Is that right? So that will be administered by local authorities.

What if people are in receipt of mortgage interest support or the housing benefit element is not necessarily sufficient to cover the shortfall? What happens with all the local authorities that have outsourced their housing benefit and council tax arrangements? There are a lot of them. Have they been engaged? Presumably, there are extracontractual costs because they will be required to do things in excess of current entitlements.

On universal credit, is it likely that the withdrawal will be in respect of only the housing component of the credit or will the broader range of support that is in universal credit be subject to the clawback?

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[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has made a very powerful case, particularly for those serving short sentences. One can be reasonably confident that the benefit entitlement with which they enter prison will remain the same when they leave it. Could the Minister help me by fleshing out his thoughts a little further on a situation in which you cannot know in the same way, under universal credit, whether someone leaving prison is going into the household of a former partner with children or whether that household has broken up while he has been in prison? What question marks will there be? It was much easier to arrange when we were dealing with a single benefit, such as jobseeker’s allowance, which was not particularly related to the network of other benefits that a household might receive. It would clearly work for those serving short sentences or for somebody who was single throughout their sentence and expected to come out single. Could the Minister help us on how he would handle a situation in which a person was going back into a household with children, where there might be rent to be paid from his universal credit entitlement? He might go back expecting that payment to be made to him. Perhaps the Minister could help us on that.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

Thank you very much. I am glad that the noble Baroness raised that point. It reinforces something that many of us have been saying for a long time: the prison system of this country is not organised to help itself. The trouble is that prisoners are scattered all over the country by an incoherent national population management structure, as opposed to—as recommended by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, after the Strangeways riots in 1990—prisons being grouped into what he called community clusters or regional clusters so that nobody ever left their region. Therefore, all the resources of the region could be applied to the rehabilitation of their own offenders. It will be very difficult for the Ministry of Justice to resolve the questions that noble Lords have asked under the present distributed system. If prisons were regionalised and the prison authorities properly hooked into all the authorities in the region, it would be much easier to liaise with the regional authorities responsible for finding out that sort of detail. That should of course be part of the whole rehabilitation process anyway. The questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, posed are absolutely ones that should be referred to the Ministry of Justice. We should ask, “How will you ensure that these are answered, because they must be?”.

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We will continue to work with the Prison Service, the Ministry of Justice and other agencies to ensure that on release prisoners have all the necessary information about claiming benefits and pursuing programmes that prevent reoffending. Although there are problems in this area, and the noble Lord, as always, has described them with great eloquence, we want to make sure that universal credit is not part of the problem but part of the solution. I am looking forward to meeting him. I am also talking to the Ministry of Justice about a lot of these initiatives. I think that things are beginning to move in this area in a way that may start to ease the incredible frustration that I know he has had year after year, and I urge him to withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Regarding the payment on account, I do not know whether it is exactly the way to go forward, but I think it is the only way you can make this work. However, on the assumption that most people coming out of prison may well be under the age of 35, will the Minister confirm that he expects the payment to include at least the HB single room rent, as well as the jobseeker’s allowance? At £67, the jobseeker’s allowance will not go very far in paying rent. Therefore, the payment on account benefit of UC would include a putative amount for both elements—both what we know is called JSA and what we currently call housing allowance.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, there are two things here: budgeting advances and a process of how we move people on to the system that we are looking at. I cannot set that out in detail, but we will be doing so in regulations as we elaborate that system.

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[Lord De Mauley]

I do not have an answer for the noble Lord. He is right to raise this issue. Perhaps I may include that in the correspondence.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

The Minister is being very helpful on this but I want to go back to the point made by my noble friend. This stemmed originally from what the noble Lord, Lord Freud, corrected, which was a misapprehension in the press some time back that people would lose ESA et cetera while they appealed. This was presented as an issue of moral hazard: why would anyone ever not appeal if they knew that through the process of appeal they would get a benefit even if subsequently this was not confirmed?

The other side of that moral hazard issue is: how many people, and under what circumstances and what benefits, could lose their income even though ultimately it might be reinstated by an appeals tribunal and backdated? During the process, which could very well take six weeks, what do they live on? The noble Lord may be able to respond now but, if not, perhaps he can write to us about in what circumstances, with what benefits and with what clients there could be a situation in which someone could lose their benefit, even though they were appealing and might subsequently be reinstated? During that process they could be living basically on the kindness of strangers.

[Lord De Mauley]

I understand what the noble Baroness wants and I am grateful to her for allowing me to write.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

Yes, I am pleased to confirm that it will be available in draft. I want to avoid the cost of printing up a leaflet.

We will ensure that deductions from benefit or earnings to repay an overpayment should not lead a debtor to suffer undue hardship. That remains a cornerstone of our overpayment recovery policy. As presently, future benefit recovery will be subject to regulations that provide for a maximum rate of recovery. In many instances, however, this maximum rate of recovery may still prove unaffordable for some claimants. In such cases, the DWP will discuss an alternative repayment rate.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I realise that the Minister is going fast, but let us be quite clear. In the past, and I stand to be corrected, my understanding is that when there has been official error and overpayment we would request a repayment. If that request was not responded to or met, effectively, that was pretty much the end of the story. In particular, somebody with a history of disability, poor health, financial pressures and so forth, almost invariably would not reply.

We need to hear from the Minister whether he is moving from request to require; whether he is moving the discourse from the first to the second. I thought that the first was reasonable, so that if they could afford it, they should repay, but if it was unreasonable, then they did not. If he is going from request to require, we need another step in the procedures to try to ensure that those from whom he will require the repayment of debt are in a reasonable position to do so. He cannot just change the words. He has to institute another procedure and another step in the equation. I know that the Minister is going fast but perhaps he might reflect on this and write to us so that we can take this up later. That must be the case.

[Lord Freud]

I am going to come on to that point, which is critical. Although the starting point for overpayment recoverability will be that almost all overpayments of working-age benefits within the scope of Clause 102 will be recoverable upon application, DWP will consider a claimant’s means, income or expenditure if the debtor considers that they are in hardship.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

The point is that under the previous system the recipient determined what would happen. What the Minister is suggesting is that the DWP will determine whether recovery takes place.

[Lord Freud]

No. I think what I said is that if the debtor considers that they are in hardship, they can say that and then there is a process built on that.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I am sorry to take up the Committee’s time, but previously if the recipient said that they were not going to do it, that ended it. There was not an assumption that there was space for negotiation. What the Minister seems to be suggesting is that there will be a requirement, and then the claimant has to opt out rather than the old arrangement, which is that if the recipient said that they were not in a position to repay, that ended the matter. It is a question of where the power lies. Under the old system, the power of refusal lay with the claimant. The Minister is suggesting that it will lie with the DWP, and only if the DWP is persuaded will the claimant be allowed to opt out.

[Lord Freud]

Yes, that is the process. It becomes a requirement, and then if the claimant says, “Look, I can’t afford that rate, I’m in hardship”, then it is adjusted. That is a regular process. In practice, only half the people now make repayments at the maximum rate. That is a very well established process which works pretty well, and I do not think we need to put in extra processes.

My noble friend Lord Kirkwood—Kirkwood of Kirkhope, some people were unaware—asked about an independent appeal right. There is just a general appeal right here for overpayments, and I think that covers this as much as anything else.