Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Lord Moylan

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak briefly to my Amendment 9 in this group. Before I do so, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thornton, for making clear his intentions as regards moving his amendments in Committee. I wrote to him twice about this without getting a clear answer, but there has been a clear answer today, which is that he is not going to press amendments to which there is objection. It is good to know what his intentions are because otherwise we could end up in a situation, which I think would not be convenient to the Committee and would certainly contradict our normal practice, of having to hold Divisions in Committee that normally would be deferred, very properly, to Report. I welcome what he said.

My Amendment 9 is fairly easily disposed of because the noble and learned Lord has explained that both he and I, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, in her Amendment 8, have identified one of a number of blatant errors in the Bill where it says two different things in two different places, and we have drafted amendments to correct that. That is essentially what they do. We have drafted them differently. I think the sensible thing would be if the noble and learned Lord did not press his Amendment 6 today because it would pre-empt mine. Instead, I think the sensible and normal thing, the courteous thing, would be to say that he will discuss the drafting with the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, and me outside the Committee between now and Report so that we have agreement on the appropriate amendment. I prefer not to have my amendment pre- empted, since I say, with some humility in front of the noble and learned Lord, that I think mine is better drafted than his.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 405 because the Equality Act is relevant to it. It provides a legal duty to provide reasonable adjustments for disabled people, which is defined quite broadly and I think would include a person who was terminally ill. The amendment is currently worded that the doctor must

“take all reasonable steps to ensure that there is effective communication”.

Will the noble and learned Lord consider changing his drafting to say that the doctor must “ensure reasonable adjustments are provided to ensure effective communication”?

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Lord Moylan

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 287, and I thank my noble friend for tabling Charlie’s law. Charlie Gard’s case was painful for all involved, including his parents and the doctors at the hospital where he was receiving treatment. Protracted disagreements can have far-reaching effects, particularly when they are played out in public, as has happened in a small number of cases. For the child, it can mean a delay in a decision about their care and treatment. For the parents and family of the child, there can be enormous distress, feelings of loss of control, and financial strain. Healthcare staff can also experience stress and anxiety, and they might be subjected to intimidation.

The parents of Charlie Gard, Alta Fixler, Alfie Evans, Tafida Raqeeb, and many others, wanted to do what any parent would do to try to improve their child’s condition and alleviate their child’s suffering. However, it is evident that the parents in such cases do not feel adequately heard and listen to when discussing options about their child’s treatment. This results in the devastating conflicts that lead to litigation. With this amendment, parents would be given the chance to discuss their views openly with the clinicians and hear the views of those clinicians, too.

Too often in my career, I have heard distressed parents described as “difficult” and “impossible to work with—nobody can work with them”. These are grieving parents who are looking for someone they can trust to help them. Mediation can sometimes help parents, and professionals to acknowledge that the consequence of conflict has been to shift focus away from the needs and welfare of the child. An independent mediation process can help to facilitate less confrontational conversation while supporting both parties. Thus, it provides support for both. Mediation across England is inconsistent. It needs to be available in every NHS hospital where conflict emerges, and at an early stage, so that the lives of very sick children such as Charlie are less likely to escalate to court.

In the rare event that a child’s case escalates to court, the amendment seeks to provide access to legal aid to ensure that families are not burdened with the financial strain of legal representation. Currently, families in this position are effectively punished, both financially and emotionally, through litigation for simply doing what they strongly believe is in their child’s best interest. Although this amendment makes provision for legal aid, the main purpose is to keep cases such as Charlie’s out of court, rather than arming everyone to be prepared to enter into long-winded and expensive legal disputes. Parents would not automatically win the right for their children to be given novel treatment, but the amendment would rebalance the dialogue towards resolution, rather than towards costly and distressing legal battles that do nothing to help the parents’ grief.

I also strongly support the introduction of the significant harm test. This legal test would focus on whether an alternative credible medical treatment could cause a child “disproportionate risk of significant harm” when deciding whether a parent can seek that treatment for their child. A key point here is that no medical professional would ever be required to give care or treatment that they did not view as in the best interests of the child. The legal test is already widely used under the Children Act 1989 and should be applied to cases such as Charlie’s in the future. I am strongly in support of this amendment and commend it. It is a just and necessary package to support parents and doctors, and I hope the Minister will be in a position to welcome it.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I have also put my name to this amendment. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, on bringing it forward.

We need a broad debate on the balance of responsibility for children as between parents and the various arms of the state. Sadly, these have come to include the medical profession. Today is not the day for that debate, but this amendment does something to give a voice to parents who find themselves in dispute with doctors, often unaided, unsupported and dependent on voluntary contributions, so that they have at least a voice and a status in decisions about their sick child. I very much hope that the Government will be able to support this.