Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 6, to which I have added my name. I also see merit in the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, although I see that as an area where a manner of negotiations would be required, which I suggest might happen in the post-election scenario. I recall my colleague, Mark Durkan, at a meeting of the British-Irish Association in 2008 talking about the removal of the “ugly scaffolding”—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Caine, was there that evening. In the fullness of time, the Good Friday agreement was meant to evolve and our society was meant to evolve, through working together, through partnership, through the consent principle and through agreement. We have not necessarily achieved that position, but it is an area where further negotiations might be required.

I support the idea that Ministers should have to take account of the need for and the views of a civic forum. I recall the original Civic Forum that was established as a result of the agreement and the Northern Ireland Act back in 1998. I know many people who were involved in that and made a contribution, from the trade union movement and from civic society, from farming and fishing, because they were policy focused. That can only be good, because they bring their knowledge and their experience, which no doubt can inform Assembly Members and Ministers of the issues that are pertinent at a particular time. In my old constituency of South Down, such issues might be agriculture and fisheries. Nothing lasts for ever; things change, and Brexit was obviously a major change in terms of fishing. People involved directly in those industries can add much, and there is a role for the civic forum, but, more importantly, for Ministers to have due regard to what is said in that. There have been very powerful tools in the form of citizens’ assemblies in the Republic of Ireland, which have helped to change and mould society as it has developed.

I have received a copy of a letter that was sent to the then chair, or former chair, of the Executive Office, who was making inquiries about the outstanding issues of New Decade, New Approach. Reference was made in that agreement to a civic advisory panel, which would be not unlike a civic forum. New Decade, New Approach states:

“The parties recognise the value of structured and flexible engagement with civic society to assist the Government to solve complex policy issues. The Parties have agreed that the existing Compact Civic Advisory Panel should be reformed to include a renewed membership appointed within 6 months”—


that should have been by June 2020—

“by way of a Public Appointments process.”

It is to be noted that this remains an outstanding commitment which was interrupted by the impact of Covid on public engagement generally. The letter to which I referred, from October 2021, stated that work would be initiated to enable the panel, subject to the availability of supporting resources, to come into operation as soon as circumstances permitted to fulfil its intended remit as effectively as possible. I see that as a staging post on the way to the establishment of a civic forum by way of this legislation.

It is interesting that the civic advisory panel has not yet been established. Surely the impetus should have been Covid and the need for an organisation such as that, consisting of people from the trade union movement, civic society, health and social services, the economy, business and manufacturing, and from the retail organisations, to discuss the ingredients of what was required in a Covid recovery plan and help inform Ministers and Members of the Assembly of the most up-to-date thinking in this regard.

While I speak in support of both amendments, recognising that a new set of negotiations would be required in terms of Amendment 7, I ask the Minister: where is the civic advisory panel? Will the Minister and the Government talk urgently to the Northern Ireland Executive about the establishment of this panel? It would only be of benefit, and not a hindrance or impediment, as sometimes Members in the Assembly and even Ministers could think, but they should always see things in terms of compromises and solutions. I support both amendments.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I will just say something briefly on Clause 4 and the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. A civic forum sounds brilliant, does it not? But I am really not sure what we mean by a civic forum. I presume that this is a probing amendment, because clearly we could not support something where we have no real idea of how anyone would get on to it; who would be representing who; what the rules would be; whether they would get paid to come—would someone coming up from Londonderry/Derry get their fair pay?—or whether it would move around and people would be moving around with it.

I think this is one of those ideas that sound great but in practice would become just another group of people—mainly the same people, probably, who are already involved in politics in the wider sense in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is quite a small place, as those of us who come from there know, and everybody knows everybody, really. Wherever you go, people know somebody who knows somebody—probably sometimes they are even a relative. I am therefore not quite sure how this would work. We have, for example, a very strong Women’s Institute in Northern Ireland, where WI groups meet in the country areas regularly and do great work; we have the Young Farmers’ Clubs; we have all sorts of other organisations already, such as residents, tenants and community associations; and a huge amount of work is being done by churches and community groups. I am just not sure about introducing another layer of supposed democracy and accountability—I am not sure who it would be accountable to, anyway.

I hope that the Minister will treat this with great care, because it is one of those things that sounds good and could be set up, but then we discover that it is in fact pretty meaningless and does not do anything to move things forward in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this, but I just want to pick up on some of the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, has just said. We know exactly how such a thing would be established, because it was—it was running. When I was the Speaker, I met regularly with Chris Gibson, who was the chair of the Civic Forum, so this is not some kind of thing where we can say, “We’re really not sure what it is, how it will happen or where it would be”—it was operating. The puzzle is not whether it could operate, but why, as a part of the agreement that was voted on, it stopped operating.

There is an argument that it could have done more at the time. One of the discussions that I had with Chris Gibson as chair was to encourage him to take more initiative in enabling the forum to do things. My goodness, we sit in the House of Lords, which is in itself not entirely different from this proposition, which is that you have people who are not always involved directly and immediately in party politics but nevertheless have a role to play.

Therefore, I just flag up, after what the noble Baroness says about being puzzled as we do not know what it would be like or who would be appointed and so on, that it was in fact in place.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

That was 20 years ago.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

Twenty years ago, indeed. The agreement itself, which is the basis for the Assembly, from 20 years ago, was the basis for the Civic Forum as well. The puzzle is how it has been possible to talk about implementation of the agreement and not talk about something that was voted on and supported in a referendum. I just flag that up.

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Moved by

[Baroness Hoey]

7A: Clause 5, page 7, line 42, at end insert—
“(9) This section has effect notwithstanding section 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. (10) No inference is to be drawn from subsection (9) as to whether this section would otherwise have effect subject to section 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.”Member’s explanatory statement This amendment at subsection (9) would ensure that s7A of the 2018 Act cannot transport the requirements within the Protocol into domestic law, and thus nullify the cross community consent mechanisms.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am sorry that this amendment came in rather late. I thought there were going to be two days in Committee, and I had checked that I would be able to put something in today. I am very grateful to the Public Bill Office for its support.

Amendment 7A in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, is designed to restore the balance at the heart of the Belfast agreement. The agreement has been unbalanced by the manner in which the protocol has sought to nullify cross-community protections to prevent them being utilised by unionists to vote down the protocol. This has been accepted by the Government’s barristers in the High Court as subjugating the Acts of Union. The very essence of the union is being subjugated by the protocol. How can any Peer who values the union stand over that approach?

The Government in the Command Paper and in subsequent contributions by the noble Lord, Lord Frost, have conceded that the protocol has no consent from the unionist community and identified that as a core problem. It is therefore time to restore the fundamental balance and cross-community protections inherent within the Belfast agreement. In the absence of those core pillars being restored, there is no basis for any pro-union person to continue to support the agreement. This amendment would restore the principle of cross-community consent for key decisions, which is a core commitment in strand 1(5)(d) of the Belfast agreement. The Committee will note that this relates to any key decisions coming before the Assembly.

Later there were efforts to create some technical loophole to justify demolishing this cross-community consent mechanism for the protocol vote because, it is claimed, it is not devolved. As noble Lords will know, the Secretary of State by regulations unilaterally amended the 1998 Act by inserting Section 56A and Schedule 6A. That has the effect of disapplying cross-community consent. In practical terms it is designed to nullify cross-community protections being utilised in this case by unionists. Can this Committee and noble Lords imagine for a moment the outcry there would be if the Northern Ireland Act was unilaterally amended to nullify cross-community protections for nationalists?

We have heard much talk of protecting the Belfast agreement. What that really seems to mean is protecting certain aspects of the Belfast agreement and certain interests in the agreement—namely, those who have more of a nationalist view. All those who claim adherence to the Belfast agreement should support it in all its parts. That means the protections must apply every bit as much for those who are pro-union.

This amendment restores the fundamental principle of cross-community consent and the ultimate outworking of that is that, if these amendments are passed, come 2024—though I hope it is gone long before that—the protocol cannot continue in the absence of a resolution which commands cross-community support. A simple vote of nationalists would not suffice. A vote against such a restoration of balance will send a message to the unionist community that cross-community protections do not really matter. I do not need to point out how corrosive that is at the moment in the Northern Ireland—the idea that cross-community does not really matter, that it matters only when certain people have decided it does.

If the Government wish to be loyal to their Command Paper and their New Decade, New Approach promise to protect the UK internal market, the way to do that is to insert these amendments and correct the monumental error in disapplying cross-community consent. Repealing Section 56A and Schedule 6A would cut out the corrosive infection which has been injected into the Belfast agreement by the protocol. It is also important to restore the primacy of the cross-community protections and to make very clear that the constitutional statue in the form of the Northern Ireland Act cannot be subjugated to the general words in Section 7A of the withdrawal Act.

Of course, those of us who went to court on this say that Section 7A has no such effect in any event, but given that the Government and their lawyers have come to the High Court and made that case, these amendments will make expressly clear the primacy of the key cross-community protections. I accept that the Minister has had very little time to study the amendments. I hope that he will not simply say that this should not be in this Bill, because if it cannot be in this Bill, then the Government are really saying that there is no way to change what has happened in respect of those consent principles.

I hope that the Minister will give this some thought and that the Government will perhaps come back with an amendment of their own, if not this amendment, on Report. I beg to move.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for her manuscript amendments. Obviously, she referred to a number of arguments that are currently being considered by the courts and on which I have no intention of commenting today. As my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn generously pointed out, this amendment only came in this afternoon, so I hope noble Lords will forgive me that I have not had the opportunity to study it in detail or discuss it more broadly within the department.

The protocol came up extensively at Second Reading and, on that occasion, I set out the Government’s position on this issue. It is clear that in the construction and implementation of the protocol we have seen a diversion of trade, burdens on business, an impact on consumers and how it has affected confidence in the Belfast agreement and its institutions throughout the community. The irony is not lost that a protocol that was designed primarily to support and uphold the 1998 agreement now risks undermining it.

As I also pointed out at Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Frost is currently engaged in intensive negotiations with the European Commission on a number of the problems I have referred to arising from the protocol. As he has made clear to the House on a number of occasions, while progress has been made there still remain substantial gaps. The Government’s hope and intention is that these differences can be resolved through agreement; that is our clear preference. If that is not possible, then we will take whatever steps we feel are necessary to safeguard not just the interests of Northern Ireland but the United Kingdom as a whole, because the protocol impacts the whole of the UK and not just one part of it.

I assure both the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn that the Government are firmly of the view that any solution to the issues arising from the protocol can be lasting only if it has democratic support from across the community in Northern Ireland, ensuring a balanced settlement which is sustainable in the long term. As my noble friend has made clear, the current arrangements are not sustainable, and he is trying to address that issue.

Beyond that, I am not in a position to say a great deal more. At the risk of repetition, this Bill is primarily about implementing New Decade, New Approach, which was instrumental in securing the re-establishment of the devolved institutions after the hugely frustrating period from 2017 to 2020. I respectfully suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, that we should press on with passing this Bill, allow my noble friend Lord Frost to press on with his negotiations and secure the right outcome for Northern Ireland. In the meantime, I urge her to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Dodds, Lord Trimble and Lord Morrow. All noble Lords here should be concerned about the seriousness of the situation in Northern Ireland; it will not get better if the protocol stays. As we have said many times, in the end the Government have to choose between the Belfast agreement and the protocol. Of course, the Belfast agreement is now being fractured—I think that is the word. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I am assuming, perhaps wrongly, that those who did not speak are in agreement or have been thinking so carefully about it all that they will come back on Report. I thank the Minister because the amendment was tabled this morning and I appreciate that he may not have seen it until later in the day. Obviously Members need to look at it, study it and think about it.

Normal dealings in Northern Ireland are not going to continue unless this is sorted. We can no longer ignore it. It is not going to go away. We are wasting our time with the New Decade, New Approach if this is not sorted. Things will get very difficult indeed. In view of what the Minister has said, I hope that he will go away and perhaps discuss the amendment with the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and other members of the Government, including the Prime Minister, and that by the time we get to Report we may have a different view and a different outcome in terms of what can be put on the Order Paper. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 7A withdrawn.

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8A: Page 8, line 7, at end insert—
“(c) section 56A of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and Schedule 6A to that Act.”
Member’s explanatory statement
This repeals the Protocol consent mechanisms which were made by regulation by the NI Secretary of State. These consent mechanisms expressly transport the Protocol into domestic law by ensuring the consent of the NI Assembly for its continuation requires only a majority vote (and expressly disapplies cross community consent protections of section 42 of the 1998 Act), rather than cross community consent protections applying pursuant to Strand One (5)(d) of the Belfast Agreement.
The Protocol requires (at least in respect Articles 5-10) that positive consent be given for its onward existence.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

Amendment 8A stands in my name and is very short—

[The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

If I may, I enjoyed the debate earlier, but the convention is that you do not move it formally in Committee.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have in front of me, from the Public Bill Office, “If you wish to move your second amendment, you say, ‘My Lords, I beg to move manuscript Amendment 8A, standing in my name, which is as follows’, and read it out. You then make your speech.”

[The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

I think that was put down just in case something odd happened. The convention for right now is not to move it.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I am sorry; I am new. I do not know the conventions. Shall I go on to move it?

[The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

I do not think you want to move it. It was spoken to earlier.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

This is a separate amendment.

[The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

I know, but it was grouped with Amendment 7A and was spoken to there.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

That is fine, because it is very short and was simply going to repeal the Act, which would mean that we would not have the protocol consent principles.

Clause 6 agreed.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in welcoming the Minister to the Dispatch Box. I have no doubt his experience working in the Northern Ireland Office will have prepared him well for his brief here. I wish him well in his new role.

I broadly support the Bill before us. It reflects what was agreed in New Decade, New Approach, where there was agreement on a wide range of issues. While there may be disagreement regarding some aspects of that agreement, the Bill presents an opportunity for us to strengthen the legislative framework—to make the institutions in Northern Ireland more workable and more stable. Equally, it is the case that the Northern Ireland Assembly is the place for discussion and debate of issues that relate directly to the daily lives of people in Northern Ireland.

If we are to continue to move forward in Northern Ireland, we must continue to try to do so with some form of consensus. We must not repeat some of the mistakes of the past, where decisions were rushed through without much local scrutiny. We must not adopt a half-in, half-out version of the devolved settlement, whereby this Parliament is seen to be changing agreements, passing new legislation or bypassing the sitting Northern Ireland Assembly altogether. Such an approach would lead only to mistrust, discontent and disillusionment and, in the longer term, would only undermine devolution in Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, spoke about the petition of concern in Northern Ireland. As a former Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly, I can tell your Lordships that I saw that petition used by all the political parties in Northern Ireland. You would think from some party leaders now in Northern Ireland that they never used the petition of concern; it was only one or two parties. That certainly was not the case while I was Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is true that in some instances this mechanism was not used properly, nor as it was originally intended, but it would also be true to say that in many instances it was used purely because on some key issues cross-party consensus could not be found.

The Northern Ireland Assembly and the institutions of government, certainly since St Andrews, were built on the idea of consensus. It would also be true to say that there is certainly room for improvement in respect of this. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, we must remember that the parties of government in Northern Ireland are different not just constitutionally speaking but in that they come from across the political spectrum, from left and right. Any manner of coalition government with parties so different will always be very challenging.

The only way of moving forward and progressing is by getting round the table and finding consensus. The answer is not found by legislating for one party’s wish list, nor by bypassing the Northern Ireland Assembly altogether. The issue we have in Northern Ireland is that we have a party that does not believe in consensus but also believes that if it comes here, it will get what it wants anyway. That is the problem when we try to get consensus in Northern Ireland: we have a party that does not need to reach consensus because it gets what it wants here anyway.

I assure noble Lords that, where an opportunity presents itself to improve the scheme in a fair, balanced and appropriate way, we should take it. Where an opportunity presents itself to improve the quality of debate and discussion in a devolved setting, we should seek to take it. We want a devolved institution that works for all the people of Northern Ireland. We want a Stormont that offers good government to all the people of Northern Ireland.

The current situation, brought about by the Northern Ireland protocol arrangements, is, as ever, deeply regrettable. The protocol continues to damage Northern Ireland economically and constitutionally; I stress “constitutionally” although it has had a serious effect economically as well. The barrier to trade between parts of our United Kingdom damages internal business, lacks cross-community support and fundamentally undermines the core principles that underpin the democratic structures in Northern Ireland. We hold our discussions about changes to our institutions at a time when the future of those same institutions has been threatened by the ramifications of this flawed arrangement.

Only by fully restoring the integrity of the United Kingdom internal market will the political, economic and social stability of Northern Ireland be safeguarded. I say this to the House: do not underestimate the strong feeling that there is in the entire unionist community on the Northern Ireland protocol. We would be fools to try to write that situation off because there is strong unionist opposition to what is going on in Northern Ireland. If the EU insists on imposing a border in the Irish Sea, the Government must fulfil their commitments to protect Northern Ireland and its people. Triggering Article 16 is only a start, and needs to remain a real option. The people of Northern Ireland rightly expect the Government to act decisively on this. Does the Minister agree that the time has now come for decisive action to end the current uncertainty around the Northern Ireland protocol?

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—oh, sorry, I did not see the noble Lord there.

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[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is a genuine pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bew. I was getting rather ahead of myself. His knowledge of Northern Ireland is probably greater than anyone else’s in your Lordships’ House, so I apologise to him.

I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Caine. When I first came into the Lords last year, I was so surprised that there was no Minister for Northern Ireland. I absolutely welcome him and his remark at the beginning that he is a unionist and a pro-union Minister, and therefore, if there ever is a referendum while he is a Minister—I do not think that there will be one for a very long time, if ever—on Northern Ireland’s position within the union, I am sure that he will be out campaigning for the union, because nothing in the Belfast agreement stops that happening, and I was very disappointed that the shadow Secretary of State of my old party said that she would have to be neutral.

As many people have said, the proposed changes in the Bill have been made by the Government to try to improve the stability of Northern Ireland institutions and to improve transparency and accountability. It is rather ironic that we are talking about accountability when we have had discussions over the past few months on the protocol, where there has been no accountability. Along with all the unionist, pro-union parties in Northern Ireland, I am involved in the Court of Appeal action, which started again today—we had the first day. It is absolutely fascinating, and it is worth telling your Lordships what the Government have said today: they have gone back on their assertion that the Acts of Union are subject to implicit repeal, as they argued in court at the first hearing. Instead, they have suggested that Section 7A(3) merely suspends the Acts of Union for as long as the protocol exists. What an incredible suggestion. It suggests that the very legal contract that is the union—the Acts of Union—can be suspended as a requirement of the protocol. The implication is that, while the protocol remains, Northern Ireland’s position in the union is suspended. That is worth bringing to your Lordships’ attention tonight. I do not expect the Minister to respond on it, because he is clear that this about one area of legislation.

But it is also important that, as has been pointed out, the New Decade, New Approach agreement of January 2020 has, first, never actually been voted on or even debated in the Assembly. However, it is there and it is the agreement that we are working to—but this is only one aspect of it. I join with other noble Lords who have said that they want to know when the rest of it—the bits that actually make a huge difference—will be brought in. Some of the parties have been pushing particular aspects of it. It is very important that the Government do not look at one area alone but at the whole thing. The question of internal trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland in particular is absolutely crucial. We have to get that legislation very quickly.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, said that this was a “sticking plaster”. I am afraid that, in my view, the Bill is just a further distortion of democracy in Northern Ireland. Ministers will now be able to stay in office for up to a year after the Executive collapse or are not reformed, while no new election needs to be called in that time. As he has said, not a single Lord or Member of Parliament would allow that to happen in any other part of the United Kingdom, so let us not pretend that we have a real, genuine democracy in Northern Ireland: it makes old-style direct rule look almost more democratic.

The Bill has a huge flaw because, if a particular party removes its Ministers, the Executive will then become lopsided and unsustainable as they fail to cover both communities. Remember: everything in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement was about balance. It also reminds us of the nearly unsayable truth that the Belfast agreement’s reconstruction of Stormont is all about keeping republicans with the tent. It was Sinn Féin that pulled out for three years in 2017, leaving the Secretary of State in charge. That involved a new policy of punishing the citizens of Northern Ireland by refusing to make any changes or necessary reforms, thus requiring Westminster to legislate every six months to at least ensure the money supply. Will the Government give a commitment that, if this should ever happen again and the Executive were to collapse, this would not happen again—even if it does offend the Dublin Government?

Extending the purgatory just underscores the instability of the unworkable—in my view—system in Northern Ireland. It really is time to ask why this system is lurching from one crisis to another. We all know the answer, even if we do not want to admit it. It is very simple: Sinn Féin has a vested interest in instability. Why would it not? It does not want Northern Ireland to work. It does not want Northern Ireland to be successful. So we have the folly of a system that permits a Government only if a party that does not want Northern Ireland to work is at its heart—otherwise, there can be no Government. In my view, mandatory coalition does not work, cannot work and will not work. It is a recipe for perpetual, politically inspired instability.

Turning to the petition of concern, it was a safeguard to ensure that no one community could lord it over the other. The compulsory power-sharing arrangement that we have at Stormont could not operate without it, given that the previous majoritarian system has been deemed improper and inappropriate for Northern Ireland, unless the Government decide that it is useful, which is what they did with the protocol and the consent principle. So the petition has been used by both unionist and nationalist parties in legislation on the Floor of the Northern Ireland Assembly and, of course, it effectively stymies the Executive bringing forward reforms in many areas, since there is no advance cross-community agreement.

The case in February 2016, when the Assembly voted to remove the exception in fair employment law in relation to appointing schoolteachers, is a unique exemption from anti-discrimination law, applicable nowhere else in Europe—including no longer in the Republic of Ireland. The amendment, supported by the unionist and Alliance parties, passed, but a petition of concern was immediately invoked by the SDLP and Sinn Féin, and the reform was blocked. So let us not think, again as has been said earlier, that it is only one side that does petitions of concern.

However, concerns over the use of the petition of concern mask the reality that the Assembly can never legislate for reform. As a result, that task is almost exclusively exported to this Parliament. I instance past examples: welfare reform, abortion and gay marriage—in fact, all the gay reforms since initial decriminalisation in 1982 have come from here. Irish language and legacy legislation will be with us over the next year and inevitably many more will depend on Westminster finding the time to do what Stormont cannot or will not.

No matter the changes in this Bill, the basic difficulty remains: the two communities have different interests and often different ways of looking at things. A Bill of Rights is one such issue. It is worth reminding noble Lords that the Good Friday/Belfast agreement did not promise a Bill of Rights, and certainly not an all-singing, all-dancing one, as so many nationalists still demand. The agreement’s terms were met when proposals from the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission were forwarded in 2008 to Shaun Woodward, the then Secretary of State. They suggested 80 new statutory rights; he found that they were inoperable and inappropriate and had no cross-community support. The proposal duly fell and will not be revived via the Belfast agreement, no matter how many investigations are held in the Assembly.

So it is time for clarity and honesty. Your Lordships’ House is the only assembly where Northern Ireland reforms are debated and perhaps amended. The other place is where the Government bring in their ready-cooked Northern Ireland Bills to Parliament, once they have decided what needs to be made law. I will just say briefly, on the case of legacy, which we are all going to have to talk about and discuss soon, and the Northern Ireland Office’s July Command Paper, with its proposed statute of limitations—which is actually an end to the whole Troubles criminal investigations—that this is the final capping of a process in train for 25 years. We have had more than a dozen partial amnesties since the 1998 Good Friday agreement, starting with the early release of prisoners, those guilty of the grossest abuses of human rights. In the terrible case of Patsy Gillespie, which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, mentioned, if the person had been got for that at the time, probably now they would be out on a royal pardon or some other way in which those guilty of the grossest abuse of human rights—murder—have been let off.

Those many parts of amnesty have been advocated, proposed and agreed by the Irish and British Governments in the past, so I find it a little surprising that the Irish Government are getting so angry about this when, in the past, they have gone along with it and asked for it. We will have to discuss this legacy Bill at some stage, but I hope that people will look at the past and the history of it before they make their decision.

Finally, I hope that nobody in your Lordships’ House will believe that the central problem of what is happening in Northern Ireland legislation, Stormont and the Assembly is resolved by this legislation. This House remains the legislature for Northern Ireland; that is the reality. Maybe it is time to recognise that those of us who were integrationists all those years ago may have had a point.

Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Tuesday 5th November 2019 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks. He was at his most tenacious over the weekend in trying to make this happen.

There are many more people to thank. Unfortunately, Sir Anthony Hart, who led the inquiry, passed away earlier this year, but through his widow, Lady Mary Hart, I thank him and his team for their tireless work. I thank the other inquiry members, the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland civil service, Northern Ireland Office civil servants, the Executive Office, the leaders of the Northern Ireland political parties and my predecessors, my right hon. Friends the Members for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) and for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire). They have all played an important part in getting to today.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that sometimes in this House there is a feeling that Northern Ireland gets neglected or is a sideshow, but this measure today shows that the Government and Opposition knew that this was a hugely crucial issue to the people of Northern Ireland and that getting it to the House today and through this procedure is a mark of this House’s responsibility and care for Northern Ireland?

Northern Ireland: Restoring Devolution

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith]

I have no plans to change the constitution, basis and set-up of the Assembly. However, I think that the lack of representation here—there are seven or eight constituencies unrepresented—is not a good thing. As I have said, we need to get Stormont up and running—1,000 days is far too long.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State should be an expert on the protocol, so may I ask him a simple question? A friend who gardens in Northern Ireland wants to buy 2 lb of organic garlic from a supplier in England. When the supplier sees the Northern Ireland address will they be obligated to add the EU tariff—currently 10%—and how would my friend prove that he is not moving it to the EU, in the Republic, and how would he reclaim the tariff? The agreement says that the default assumption is that it is going to the EU, which is an important point. That is what people are talking about in Northern Ireland today—not restoring devolution.

[Julian Smith]

As the hon. Lady knows, the Joint Committee in the new protocol will look at all those matters. I expect them to be looked at over the coming months as we go through the implementation period.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 8th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands).

I seem to be one of the few people in the Chamber who feels uncomfortable with the legislation. It is now two and a half years—a world record—since the Assembly last sat. Every week since then, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee has heard about the impact that having no devolved government is having on the ordinary lives of ordinary people in Northern Ireland, whichever community they are from. We have heard about Police Service of Northern Ireland funding; about the fact that Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom without a cancer strategy; and about the suicide strategy. Suicides have doubled since the Good Friday agreement, yet the Protect Life 2 strategy is gathering dust on a shelf somewhere in Stormont, while young men in particular are taking their own lives.

We have heard about equal marriage and abortion. I think most people know my views on abortion, but the devolved Assembly must be the place to make such decisions. The absence of any decision making means that people who want to spend the rest of their lives together are not able to do so.

We have heard about air passenger duty, which may seem a minimal issue by comparison to some of these life-and-death decisions, but it is an area of co-operation under the Good Friday agreement. The Select Committee recently heard about the impact of air passenger duty on short-haul flights and the difference that is making to Northern Ireland’s economy compared with that of the Republic of Ireland, where there is no air passenger duty. That might seem a trivial example, but it is a massive issue for the economy of Northern Ireland.

On school reforms, we have heard from Sir Robert Salisbury himself about the imperative to reform schools, particularly rural ones, in Northern Ireland, but the civil servants there cannot make a decision because political judgments need to be made.

Although necessary, this legislation is just kicking the can down the road. The Select Committee heard from MLAs from various parties that there is unlikely to be an Assembly. We have to be realistic here: we can keep saying that we wish they would get back round the table, that we want them to get back round the table and that we want an Assembly, but the reality is that MLAs are saying to us that it is unlikely that there will be a functioning Assembly before the end of the year, so we are heading towards three years without an Assembly for the people of Northern Ireland, with no decisions being made.

What are we saying to the civil servants in Northern Ireland? We have heard about the Buick ruling. Every day, the civil service there is making difficult decisions that they could be challenged on in court. These civil servants did not go into their jobs to have to make political decisions in the absence of Ministers. With the can kicking we see with this legislation, we are enabling parties such as Sinn Féin to keep going round in circles and not to get back seriously to the table.

I fully agree with the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) about MLAs’ salaries. It was £9 million and it is now £12 million that has been spent on their salaries, although the Secretary of State has reduced their salaries quite significantly. They say they are doing constituency work, but while they are being paid a decent salary—probably more than the average man and woman in Northern Ireland—they have no incentive to get back round the table. There are MPs in Northern Ireland who can do that constituency casework, and there are now MEPs in Northern Ireland who can do that constituency casework. Until MLAs’ salaries are reduced significantly, if not completely, they have no incentive to get back round the table.

We are now starting to see cross-community marches throughout Northern Ireland. We had the “We deserve better” marches: 14 organised protests with thousands of people joining rallies to demand that their elected representatives get back to work and get back to running Northern Ireland. The people of Northern Ireland absolutely deserve better.

In this place, we need to show leadership. We need to take hold of the situation and look at the various issues. For me, there are three options on the table for us here. I am not in favour of direct rule in any shape or form, but we have to look at some of the significant issues and, in the absence of an Assembly, ask the people of Northern Ireland which issues that matter to them they want legislation to be passed on first.

We passed some small-scale legislation on the renewable heat incentive, but because we had to do that in such a rushed, emergency way, we did not make a very good fist of it. We now see farmers in Northern Ireland being paid significantly less for their tariffs compared with competitors in the UK and southern Ireland.

On institutional abuse, David Sterling has begged for this place to pass legislation because, as we have heard, more than 30 people who were affected and abused have died waiting for compensation. People want justice and they want compensation.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise the issue of historical institutional abuse. Does it concern her that there are people in this Chamber who are perhaps more concerned about other issues that divide people in Northern Ireland than about something like historical institutional abuse, which unites all the political parties? It is something that we could be doing together, united, rather than some of the issues in tomorrow’s amendments that are going to divide people very much.

Political Process in Northern Ireland

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

The right hon. Gentleman highlights an important point that is one of the reasons why the PSNI is so keen that we make progress in reforming the institutions that deal with the legacy of the past. He will know that we consulted on that, and I will be issuing the summary document of the consultation responses shortly.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State knows the importance that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which I am temporarily chairing, attaches to the historical institutional abuse inquiry. In response to the unanimous letter that the Committee sent to her, she said, “I do not want this urgent issue to be delayed or stalled as part of the talks process—quite the opposite.” Will she give us an absolute assurance that the matter will not get bogged down among all the other issues?

In addition—I say this carefully—could the Secretary of State possibly take some press questions the next time she makes a statement? It looks bad when she does not answer any questions while the Foreign Secretary of the Republic of Ireland answers questions for half an hour.

[Karen Bradley]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on her temporary role as the acting Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. She is doing an excellent job, and I have been following her progress closely.

I assure the hon. Lady that I am working on the matter of historical institutional abuse in parallel. It is not part of the talks progress, but I need the parties to work with me. The parties include the Ministers who will operate the scheme, so we need to know that the redress scheme is operable and works for them and, most importantly, for the victims.

Finally, as for the criticism that I have received for making statements to the press while not answering all their questions at every moment, my priority is to see devolution restored, and I am not prepared to do anything that jeopardises that. While I am happy to speak to the press and answer their questions, I do not think anyone gains anything from speculation or the over-analysis of answers.

Northern Ireland: Murder of Lyra McKee

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman’s comments. He is quite right: they will not win.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I am sure that Lyra’s family and friends, and particularly her partner Sara, will get some comfort from the measured and moving words we have heard today, not only from the Front Benchers but from everyone. Does the Secretary of State agree that one thing that may well come out of this, hopefully, will be the fact that we have seen such unity throughout Northern Ireland—from all of Northern Ireland—in total condemnation this act? We should also remember that the PSNI suffers attacks of this kind regularly. If things are not changing, we will see more people die. We must be absolutely clear that this kind of terrorism has to be stamped out, and that it will be stamped out only by the unity we have seen here today going throughout Northern Ireland.

[Karen Bradley]

The hon. Lady speaks powerfully and I agree absolutely with what she said.

Northern Ireland: Security Situation

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

1st reading: House of Commons
Monday 21st January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has welcomed, as we all welcome, the overwhelming condemnation of this dreadful car bombing. I also welcome her clear statement that no one can make Brexit an excuse. We all have to be careful about the words we use in Northern Ireland, so will she use this opportunity to say that she regrets talking about border polls in the context of Brexit? Her comments were condemned by Alex Kane, a very eminent journalist who writes for newspapers on both sides of community, as

“both stupid and deliberately provocative”.

[Karen Bradley]

He was talking about rumours and supposition; I have never spoken about any of those matters in public.

Northern Ireland Government

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Thursday 6th September 2018 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that these are matters for the devolved Government. That is why we need to see a devolved Government: so that such decisions can be taken by those whom the people of Northern Ireland elected to do so for them. The sooner we have those people in Stormont, taking those decisions and dealing with those important matters, the better for everyone.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for apologising for something that clearly should not have happened. Even now, looking at the BBC report, there is a lot more detail about the salary structure. Will she tell the House exactly what she is going to do on Assembly pay? It is on the BBC website. There is only one party—we all know that—that has refused to go back in without any preconditions. If we get the Assembly back again, what is to stop one party deciding that it is going to walk out again? Are we not coming to the crucial point where, ultimately, we are going to have to look at the arrangements for how the Belfast agreement, in this particular instance, actually works—or does not?

[Karen Bradley]

I apologise again for the error that led to the BBC report. That should never have happened and I apologise again to the House. The hon. Lady asks a question about the mechanics in relation to MLA pay. I will now write to all MLAs to inform them that I intend to reduce their pay in two stages, as set out by Trevor Reaney, with the first reduction in November and the following reduction three months later. I hope that that will incentivise MLAs to come back around the table and to re-form the Government and appoint Ministers, which we all want to see them do. That is the priority for all of us. We want to make sure we deliver that as soon as possible.

Oral Answers to Questions

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 20th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

The prospects and opportunities for Northern Ireland are absolutely fantastic. I am working to make sure that Northern Ireland benefits from all the opportunities that Brexit affords the United Kingdom.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

In welcoming the progress in the economy in Northern Ireland, does the Secretary of State realise that sport plays an important part in that? On Friday, the Commonwealth Games Federation will meet to decide whether Belfast will get the youth games. It is a small amount of money. Birmingham is getting a huge amount for the Commonwealth games the following year. The permanent secretary has said no, so will she step in?

[Karen Bradley]

As I said to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds), I urge party leaders across Northern Ireland to make the views of the parties known, so that the civil service of Northern Ireland can make the right decision.