Movement of Goods (Northern Ireland to Great Britain) (Animals, Feed and Food, Plant Health etc.) (Transitory Provision and Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2024

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

I cannot support the regret amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dodds—and he will know that I cannot. Notwithstanding that, however, we have it within our capacity to work together through the anchor of the review of the Windsor Framework to ensure that better mitigations are provided and that we go together with our best feet forward in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland, working together to obtain and achieve good economic goals,

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, could I just say something gently to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie? She always says that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU. Well, London did, Scotland did, Tunbridge Wells did; we did not leave them in the customs union with some kind of trade border.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, on his explanation in detail of what these regulations do. Of course, they are another example of the Windsor Framework building on the protocol to work against the interests of people in Northern Ireland—and indeed of people in the rest of the United Kingdom, as we increasingly see. Up until now, most regulations have dealt with movement of goods from GB to Northern Ireland, but this puts the Windsor Framework on a different level, because this is about movement from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. I remember clearly when, I think, three previous Prime Ministers and the leader of the then Opposition all said that there would never be checks on goods going from Northern Ireland to GB. Now of course there is a slightly different phrase: “no checks on qualifying goods” going from Northern Ireland to GB.

The Government have said that they want to ensure that sanitary and phytosanitary controls are applied to European Union goods and any goods from the rest of the world entering Great Britain through Northern Ireland. They say that these controls are absolutely essential to maintain the United Kingdom’s biosecurity and food safety. Yet, as has been pointed out already by noble Lords, they do not seem to care about how Northern Ireland will be left exposed to any potential dangers. The SPS checks and certifications apply to goods moving from the Irish Republic through Northern Ireland into GB; they do not apply if the goods are simply moving from the Republic of Ireland and staying in Northern Ireland. There are fears about that, quite rightly, because it has been clear that sometimes the authorities in the Republic of Ireland have been very lax when it comes to imposing regulations on animal safety and so on.

I just want to repeat that, according to these regulations, goods can move from the Republic into Northern Ireland, and can be used, be consumed, be eaten, or reach their final destination in Northern Ireland without any checks. It is only when they move to another part of our own country that such checks could be imposed. That indicates that, as a result of the current arrangements with the European Union, Northern Ireland is being left exposed not only to the disruption of trade but as regards the safety of some of that trade. In responding to the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, how can the Minister accept that? What will she do to ensure that our lives and our safety in Northern Ireland are considered just as important as those in the rest of the United Kingdom?

In the Committee in the other place that discussed this last week, a Member of Parliament asked:

“Since those checks do not cover the goods when they come into Northern Ireland, but only when they go into GB, what assurances can the Minister give to people in Northern Ireland that they will not be subject to dangers or disadvantages that the rest of the United Kingdom will not face?”


I am just going to read the answer from the Minister there because I am sure the noble Baroness the Minister, who has done a great deal of trying to talk with us and keep us involved, will answer the question. The Minister in the House of Commons said:

“My understanding of the situation is that that is a consequence of the Windsor framework and the desire not to have a hard border within the island of Ireland”.—[Official Report, Commons, Fourth Delegated Legislation Committee, 3/12/24; col. 10.]


That does not answer anything about the safety of the people in Northern Ireland being left with goods that come across without any checks.

There is a certain irony in what has been proposed. First, as has been said, we can do checks without physically stopping anything at the border. One of the reasons for the border being between Northern Ireland and GB was that we were told it was impossible to do checks on trade from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland, or vice versa, without having physical checks on the border. Everybody said, “We do not want a hard border”; no one ever defined exactly what a hard border was, but now we are told that it can be done by the production of certificates, at warehouses, at the point of destination and so on. I really do not understand how a lorry coming just from Northern Ireland into GB can be differentiated from a lorry coming through Northern Ireland with non-qualifying goods. There will have to be random checks, which will mean that Northern Ireland lorries, or those going only from Northern Ireland to GB, are likely to be stopped as well. Will the Minister admit to this or suggest that it might happen?

The important question is: if there can be these checks away from the border, why do we need an Irish sea border in the first place? The costs have already been mentioned; millions have been spent not just on the trade or support scheme, but on building these great infrastructures at various places. The Minister needs to answer very clearly why this cannot be considered. We heard a brilliant speech last week—it would be helpful if Members read it—by Jim Allister in the House of Commons when he moved his Private Member’s Bill on mutual assurance. No one really can answer. People keep saying, “Oh, there’s nothing else. We’ve got to do this. The Windsor Framework is the only way we can protect the EU’s internal market and stop a hard border”. Yet mutual assurance was first suggested by people within the European Union and only stopped when the Irish Government realised that it was not going to bring about what they really wanted, which was part of the EU’s idea to punish the United Kingdom for leaving, and to make it much easier for the all-Ireland economy, which they are desperate to have, leading to a united Ireland. I just do not understand why sensible people looking at this, not from anything other than common sense, cannot see that there are alternatives to having to divide our own country with an Irish sea border.

I want to just mention today that at this moment in the Assembly there is a debate on whether these parts of the Windsor Framework should be continued. It is a pretty shameful day for this Government, and indeed for the previous Government. What we are seeing is the move back towards a majority rule within the Assembly. Cross-community votes have always been seen as what have to happen on controversial issues. Ever since the SDLP—the original party of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie—walked out of Stormont in 1971 and the UK Government then ended the Assembly a few months later, nothing controversial has been allowed to be secured at a vote without cross-community consent. The Government changed this to a majority vote, presumably at the behest of the Irish Government and the EU. I have no confidence whatever in that vote today being seen as legitimate; it is not, because it is not the cross-community vote that should have happened.

--- Later in debate ---

The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, specifically quoted from the debate that was held on this in the other place. She asked about the question put to my honourable friend Emma Hardy around assurances that people in Northern Ireland will not be subject to dangers or disadvantages that the rest of the United Kingdom will not face. I confirm that our absolute focus is unfettered access, to ensure dual access for Northern Ireland businesses. We are looking at how we can further protect, enhance and target this to benefit Northern Ireland businesses. I am sure we can pick up in our future meeting how this could work effectively and look in more detail at the specific concerns around this, if that is helpful.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Minister but she has not really answered the question. If goods coming from the Republic through Northern Ireland into Great Britain have to be security-checked for phytosanitary and all the other reasons, why are people in Northern Ireland then left with nothing? How does the Minister know that we are not going to be poisoned or threatened by some kind of problem that she feels will come through to Great Britain?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I completely get the point that the noble Baroness is making. Our international commitments, and the trade and co-operation agreement, require us to treat EU goods equally, regardless of the entry point. As she is aware, there is a lot of legislation already in place. There are issues within the Windsor Framework. There are matters that we need to discuss with the EU as we go forward with the EU reset that has been discussed. These more complex issues are where we need to dig into the detail in our meetings outside of the legislation, and the whole point of me wanting to meet noble Lords is so we can do that. We can dig into those details and I can better understand the concerns, and we can look at whether there are things that we can do to manage this better. I hope the noble Baroness is happy that I am not trying to dodge it; I just need to understand it better, so that we can discuss it properly.

The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, asked about electronic systems for paperwork. We have been looking at this; it is quite complicated, but we are exploring whether it might be possible, to answer that specific question.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and my noble friend Lady Ritchie asked about the potential SPS and veterinary agreements with the EU. I thank my noble friend Lady Ritchie for her work as part of the veterinary medicines working group. This is a critical part of taking that work forward, and a way that we are working in collaboration and consultation to ensure that we get the best deal we can. It is quite difficult because it is early stages, and we want to get this right, so I cannot say anything formally at present. I assure noble Lords that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes on looking to get the best outcomes that we can for both SPS and veterinary agreements.

I conclude by summarising what we consider to be the benefits of these regulations. They strengthen Great Britain’s biosecurity by delivering alignment in the treatment of European Union and rest-of-world goods entering Great Britain from the island of Ireland. We believe it is right that goods from the European Union and the rest of the world are treated differently from goods moving within the UK’s internal market. Additionally, the consequential amendments to the qualifying Northern Ireland goods definition in existing legislation ensures that the updated definition, which focuses the benefits of unfettered access more squarely on Northern Ireland traders, applies to the direct and indirect movement of these goods into Great Britain. I am sure noble Lords will be aware that there will be further statutory instruments to come on very similar areas—the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, assured us that this will be the case.

I am aware that the noble Lord, Lords Dodds, may well be minded to divide the House on these regulations. As I mentioned at the start of my response, I have invited noble Lords from Northern Ireland to come, in January, to another meeting, as a follow-up to our previous one, and I very much hope that they will accept. I reassure noble Lords, who clearly have very real concerns about statutory instruments regarding the Windsor Framework and the implementation of the new BTOM, that I am listening. I want to have the opportunity to consider wider concerns in more depth, so that I can properly understand them and see if there are ways that we can move forward together on this. I do not pretend to have all the answers or a magic wand to resolve what is, in many areas, a pretty impossible position, but I am genuine in wanting to work with noble Lords on this. With that having been said, I once again thank everyone for their contributions. I commend the regulations to the House.